Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Capt. Pork on July 12, 2004, 07:28:22 AM
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Taken from Car and Driver Magazine:
Will Kerry Run Me off the Road (http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=27&article_id=8141)
Very interesting article. Biased, yes, because it's written by a guy who probably likes horsepower... I'm guessing some of you guys do too, though.
What happens when he starts proposing limiting trips to the bathroom to only 'non-frivolous' functions?
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well... now we know how he will pay for all the social programs (some of em anyway)... 50 cents a gallon tax on gasoline over and above the 35-50 we allready pay.
he will double taxes. The new (well...not so new) way for democrats to redistribute the wealth... Demonize something and then you can apply confiscatory taxes to it.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... now we know how he will pay for all the social programs (some of em anyway)... 50 cents a gallon tax on gasoline over and above the 35-50 we allready pay.
he will double taxes. The new (well...not so new) way for democrats to redistribute the wealth... Demonize something and then you can apply confiscatory taxes to it.
lazs
Seems to me that with this system, the wealth is getting redistrubuted from the pockets of everyone, including people who don't have a whole lot to begin with.
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they will no doubt be susidized and get public transportation. Only the evil auto industtry and a few workers here and there will suffer.
Oh... and the oil barons that have been hiding the tech that will make for allmost free and clean power will go broke. Just like they hid the 300 mpg carburator from us... they are now hiding cheap hyrdogen fuel that will cost allmost nothing and the exhaust will put a rose on babies cheeks.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
they will no doubt be susidized and get public transportation. Only the evil auto industtry and a few workers here and there will suffer.
Oh... and the oil barons that have been hiding the tech that will make for allmost free and clean power will go broke. Just like they hid the 300 mpg carburator from us... they are now hiding cheap hyrdogen fuel that will cost allmost nothing and the exhaust will put a rose on babies cheeks.
lazs
lazs...the "evil auto industry" and the "oil barons" have BOTH contributed to hiding the technology to which you refer.
BUT...you, my friend are contributing to this also.
What will become of your big block engine cars when you can no longer buy regular gas? Can they be converted? Do you even WANT them to be converted? What if such a conversion leads to you not being able to burn rubber at a stop light when some ricer in a hopped up Civic thinks he has a faster car than you? This seems to be terribly important to you...what if clean fuel takes this all away? THE HORROR.
Who will be to blame for this...democrats?
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Approximately a third of all jobs in the U.S. are relatedly, in some way, large or small, to the automobile industry.
I wonder if Kerry knows that?
300mpg carburetor...giggle. One can only imagine the lack of acceleration...
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curval... the reason we are using fossil fuel is because it is the cheapest and easiest to use. If there were a cheaper alternative then we would be seeing some industrialist making a killing off it...
The use of fossil fuels will continue until it is used up to the point that demand for it is so great that price rises above alternative fuels. You may be able to artifically bring this date a little closer with confiscatory taxes but not much... eurpope allready has confiscatory taxes and they aren't alll driving alternative fuel vehicles.... only the people suffer in europe.
I am doing the world a favor by burning copious ammounts of fuel... I am doing more than you gas sipping tax paying liberals who only prolong the pain.
More patriotic people like me would bring alternative fuels to the forefront much sooner...
And... whatever takes over... if it rolls... it can be faster.
lazs
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for you who are terminally naive... the 300mpg carb is a joke... it is m moore tin foil hat stuff. It was allways rumored that the industry could build cars that got 300 mpg but they didn't do it so that we would all have to pay at the pump...
course... that would mean that all the euro auto manufactures were in on the conspiracy or.... that only the U.S. knew enough about cars to build such a carb... that we were so advanced over the euros and japs.
lazs
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lol....lazs you can justify anything man.:D
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Even as an E-6 in the Navy. An increase in gas taxes would make it hard for me to afford to even drive to work. Am I to be forced into spending even more money to replace my cars with some tiny ugly hybrid? Who the F*ck is he to decide that any of us are doing frivilous driving? Some places it's just not safe to walk anywhere at night some even during the day.. And for rich prettythangholes like him an increase wouldn't affect him anyway so of course it sounds like a good idea. WE DO NOT NEED TO GENERATE REVENUE THAT BAD! This country's government is in ABSOLUTELY no danger of ever going broke. Maybe get rid of some expensive socialist oops I mean social programs, and we wouldn't require so much money to operate.
I really don't care much about the environmental impact my cars have. I will ,even if I have to steal gas because it gets to expensive, be the last person on this planet to get an environmentally responsible car (electric, hybrid, fuel cell). In fact I think I'll go take the cats of my cars today.
WHat a f*uckin' D!CK
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Originally posted by Curval
lazs...the "evil auto industry" and the "oil barons" have BOTH contributed to hiding the technology to which you refer.
I want to see proof that this technology exists.
Furthermore, I want to see proof that this technology is more efficient on the fuel-source production end of the equation than fossil fuels.
But beyond all that, I think the real issue is the approach Comrade Kerry is thinking of taking regarding the problem. 'Frivolous trips'? Since when is it the president's business how often I feel like driving to the video store to rent porn?
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Here's one example...but the cars don't make big "BRUM BRUM noises" and the tires won't smoke (http://www.azuredynamics.com/)
Americans for the most part will not embrace this type of technology.
You guys like to think you are all "environmental" in everything you do, but you refuse to let anything get in the way of your enjoyment of cars as they are now.
I didn't bring up the technology...lazs did. He knows about it...but you'd never see him in an electric hybrid.
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curval...electric hybrids are more expensive and the cost is not made up. Would you suggest tax breaks or incentives for idustry that uses em? "corprate welfare"?
I am not against this but hybrid cars are not alternative cars. They use petroleum and only prolong things at the expense of every person out there.
you would artificially increase the cost of fuel to make it feasable to drive hybrids. When the tech catches up is the time to switch not before.
And... it doesn't matter what the new car is... mine will be faster than yours.
lazs
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lazs...you didn't look at this hybrid carefully. If it is so expensive why are Puralator Courier, London Taxis and a number of other transporation companies making deals with these guys?
Yes it does use traditional fossil fuels, but the gas savings are staggering once the "kit" is fitted onto existing brands of cars.
It is NOT expensive...that is the point. But, it is easy to dismiss such things based upon demonising arguments...wait...that is YOUR argument above!!!!!! You are guilty too lazs...imagine that?
Yes, you will ALWAYS have a faster car than me. I care about as much as someone always being a better AH pilot than me. They are also more "manly" than me I guess.
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No... you miss the point. If these things are so cheap to build then the market will create itself. if they are cheap and cheap to run they will have an instant market.
The ones we are seeing are extremely expensive and do not perform anywhere near as well as advertised.. they get hardly any better milage than economy conventional cars.
People will flock to buy em. That is fine with me. If they are any good they deserve to have their place... I might buy a used one to get around in but I would still put 10k miles a year or so on Hot Rods and burning rubber. And... they would be even more fun in such a sea of drab.
point is... the day of the carb has come and gone... there never was a 300 mpg carb.
no one is hiding technolodgy. It is a matter of cost. when the cost of all that extra junk to make a hybrid goes down (and it's replacemnt cost) then you will see more of em.
that is not what you and kerry want tho... you want to artificially drive up the cost of fossil fuels so that the hybrids don't seem so painful.
For now... I am happy that you euros are getting screwed at the pump and not us.
I don't know what your point is other than you want to force technolodgy or... you think it is somehow hidden from us?
by force you mean make us all pay for it and by hidden you mean "look at me i will be the only one saved cause I have a tinfoil hat".
lazs
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Originally posted by Curval
Here's one example...but the cars don't make big "BRUM BRUM noises" and the tires won't smoke (http://www.azuredynamics.com/)
Americans for the most part will not embrace this type of technology.
You guys like to think you are all "environmental" in everything you do, but you refuse to let anything get in the way of your enjoyment of cars as they are now.
I didn't bring up the technology...lazs did. He knows about it...but you'd never see him in an electric hybrid.
We will be forced to embrace:
http://ceq.eh.doe.gov/nepa/regs/eos/eo13149.html
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The market will NOT create itself if the demand in the largest car purchasing country (USA) does not rise. Supply and demand.
This is MY point.
People like yourself simply do not want this technology because it means that your cars will change...possibly not go as fast, possibly not make nice brum, brum noises and won't smoke out ricer Civics.
YOU are the reason lazs...and the millions of Americans just like you.
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So what? We like High powered internal combustion cars. Are there really alot of hybrids or whatever in the rest of the world. Not really. Just like here there are some but it's not the only thing you guys are selling/buying so how cxan you sit over there and critisize our feelings about the subject.
I just think that using taxes to manipulate the actions of the American people is just wrong. The same thing applies to all the extra taxes thay have added to cigarettes. The govt is trying to get people not to smoke so they make cigarettes expensive not only by taxing but by making the manufacturer responsible for the health of it's consumers (DEAD WRONG IN MY BOOK AND I SMOKE). Whats next after overtaxing Gas. Making auto manufactures pay out to victims of accidents in their cars.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. Something with a large impact like a gas tax should not be decided by one man or even 100 men in the senate. This sort of thing needs to be put on a ballot for a NATIONAL referendum. Let us decide what is best for ourselves.
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Originally posted by Curval
The market will NOT create itself if the demand in the largest car purchasing country (USA) does not rise. Supply and demand.
This is MY point.
People like yourself simply do not want this technology because it means that your cars will change...possibly not go as fast, possibly not make nice brum, brum noises and won't smoke out ricer Civics.
YOU are the reason lazs...and the millions of Americans just like you.
Embracing the old and rejecting new technology is inherent of all nationalities, colors, creeds and race. Its simple psychology and not simply an "American" problem. Just happens this subject is cars, and yes we are passionate about our cars.
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cool...imagine what Los Angeles would be like today if emission standards were not introduced way back when. You would probably have to wear oxygen masks just to walk down the streets.
...and lol at your comments with respect to taxes. Your US tax laws are so full of efforts to manipulate citizen and corporate behaviour that it takes a massive library to accomodate all of the volumes of the changes in accountant's and lawyer's offices. Thank goodness for computers and electronic data storage otherwise our costs would skyrocket just on storage of information.
You better get over that quick because it has been that way ever since income taxes were introcuded....worldwide.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Its simple psychology and not simply an "American" problem. Just happens this subject is cars, and yes we are passionate about our cars.
But aren't we talking about cars in this case?:confused:
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If kerry becomes the pres, and somehow dupes congress and the senate into passing a 50cent gas tax, bet your bellybutton and your job it will put us back into a resession.
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"cool...imagine what Los Angeles would be like today if emission standards were not introduced way back when."
Don't even get me started on CA I'll just put it this way. If the big earthquake were to come today and that state were to fall off the US...I wouldn't shed a tear.
Yes we have always been manipulated by our taxes..but then all the worlds people have been. Mainly for votes at election time. However when a D!CK like Kerry is gonna try to put his own personal beliefs on us like that and use money to do it. It almost makes a person wanna take him out.
Like I said before. I am a career military man. We are not paid well and I have a family. I cannot afford a large hike in gas prices nor can I afford to have to buy another car. In case you haven't noticed those things for the most part are tiny. There are 5 people in my Family(me the wife and 3 kids). You would expect us to cram into one of those things? You euros may like to have to sit on peoples laps in those disposable cars you have. We do not.
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Originally posted by Curval
But aren't we talking about cars in this case?:confused:
Yes, and cars are very cultural to the USA. I'm just saying, the attitude itself is not limited strictly to Americans as you portrayed it originally (or as I *thought* you were portraying it...)
Its be similiar to forcing India to kill and eat cows, since cows produce more methane gases that kill ozone than any other source in the world. :)
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Curval, you are trying to reason with a brick wall. He doesn't like Kerry and will spin it that way no matter what you say.
I've seen GM's prototype for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and it looks pretty cool. The drivetrain is interchangable, just bolt on the body style you want...van, car or pickup. The fuel cell is sealed and good for 200,000 miles. When depleted, just swap drivetrains and keep the body. Want a new car? Swap bodies and keep the drivetrain.
(http://www.popsci.com/popsci/images/auto/auto1102hywire_A1_473.jpg)(http://www.popsci.com/popsci/images/auto/auto1102hywire_A3.jpg)
Fuel cell and by-wire technology frees engineers to flatten the chassis into an 11-inch- thick pancake of steel and wires. from the rear of the platform, the by-wire brakes (1) are activated by a computer-controlled signal, not hydraulic pressure. the fuel cell stack (2) creates electricity from hydrogen, which releases its excess heat and water vapor via metal fins on the radiator (3). Hydrogen, ostensibly from a refueling station in a town near you, enters through a valve on the side of the vehicle (4) and replenishes three compressed hydrogen tanks (5). A high priority of hydrogen storage research is ensuring these don't leak during a crash. Two types of supports connect the skateboard to the passenger cabin: body mounts (6) provide a strong physical connection, and the universal docking port (7) links cockpit controls to computerized systems on the platform. The by-wire inputs snake through this port on their way to the main by-wire system controls (8), which send commands to the brakes, electric engine (9), and by-wire steering rack (10). Future Hy-wire prototypes may incorporate four smaller engines, one per wheel, as in the autonomy concept.
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bag of hot air
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Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman
If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet
Taxman!
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman
Don't ask me what I want it for (Aahh Mr. Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more (Aahh Mr. Heath)
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me
Taxman!
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Build an affordable 5 seat car that gets 100+ mpg (or cost equivalent) and you'll sell all you can build.
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are they gonna do something to make the hydogen safe or is every car accident gonna be like a mini HINDENBURG?
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Originally posted by Coolridr
are they gonna do something to make the hydogen safe or is every car accident gonna be like a mini HINDENBURG?
No, they will all burst into flames when parking in Lakehurst, NJ.
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RPM,
Will they only burst into flame in Lakehurst or everywere?
It is all so confusing.
The GM idea is cool, but how close to being ready is it?
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They are very close to production. You can find the story HERE. (http://www.popsci.com/popsci/auto/article/0,12543,385005,00.html)
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but wait curval... by your reasoning...
If fossil fuel costs enough then car makers will be forced to embrace expensive alternatives.
How much does the price have to rise? In europe, it is allready 6 dollars a gallon and no altrenative sources are flooding the market? Are you saying that it would not be worth selling alternative cars to the entire euro and jap market or...
that the U.S. would be different? That the U.S. automakers are so advanced over their euro bretheren that it would work here?
I do not want a repeat of the 70's where technolodgy was not up to the standards impossed.... the cars forced on us were crap... just as many of the electric and no fossil fuel ones that were forced on California were a few years ago... you can't give em away now. No one gained by such mandates.
I am saying let nature and supply and demand take it's course.... You are saying force people to suffer for the sake of suffering and maybe moving a year or two faster than would have evolved naturaly..
The cars get better every year... we get closer every year to alternative fuels... kerry will drag us back into the silliness that was the 70's for no reason other than to pad governments coffers.
again... if the tech is so readily available and so good and cheap.... whay aren't the long suffering euros doing it?
What is the point of mandating milage standards and artificially raising gas prices? We have plenty of very high gas milage vehicles available and people who like them will buy them... What is the point of punishing everyone else? What problems has it solved in europe?
Rpm... if you could stop being such a knee jerk liberal you would understand all this or maybe.... you are waiting for the new moore movie on how we are all being kept in the dark about a new wonder fuel that could power our $1,000 cars for pennies a year? you realize that the prototype you are looking at would cost $300,000 to produce?
It is going to take time... kerry has no magic answer and in fact... he will just make a big mess of it.
lazs
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Rpm... if you could stop being such a knee jerk liberal you would understand all this or maybe.... you are waiting for the new moore movie on how we are all being kept in the dark about a new wonder fuel that could power our $1,000 cars for pennies a year? you realize that the prototype you are looking at would cost $300,000 to produce?
GM HYDROGEN3
Vehicle type: front-engine, front-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 5-door van
Estimated base price: $55,000 (if mass-produced in 2003)
Engine type: 3-phase asynchronous AC electric motor powered by 200 fuel cells capable of generating 94 kW, GM motor controller
Power (SAE net): 80 bhp @ 5000 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 159 lb-ft @ 0 rpm
Transmission: 1-speed
Wheelbase: 106.1 in
Length: 170.0 in
Width: 68.6 in
Height: 66.3 in
Curb weight: 3500 lb
Manufacturer's performance ratings:
Zero to 60 mph: 16.0 sec
Top speed (drag limited): 99 mph
GM HY-WIRE
Vehicle type: front-engine, front-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door sedan
Estimated base price: $65,000 (if mass-produced in 2020)
Engine type: 3-phase asynchronous AC electric motor powered by 200 fuel cells capable of generating 94 kW, GM motor controller
Power (SAE net): 80 bhp @ 5000 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 159 lb-ft @ 0 rpm
Transmission: 1-speed
Wheelbase: 122.6 in
Length: 195.0 in
Width: 75.0 in
Height: 62.7 in
Curb weight: 4200 lb
Manufacturer's performance ratings:
Zero to 40 mph: 10.0 sec
Top speed (governor limited): 40 mph
Who's the knee-jerker now laz?:aok
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They're talking about increasing the pressure in those hydrogen tanks in the Hy-Wire from 5,000 psi to 10,000 psi. Can you imagine the explosion if one of those tanks ruptured?
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I wouldn't want to be around when it ruptured. I don't want to be around when a gas tank explodes either.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
are they gonna do something to make the hydogen safe or is every car accident gonna be like a mini HINDENBURG?
This administration (and past) support the investigation of alternative fuel sources and give money to make those studies feasible. R&D always comes before a reasonable, tangible product.
http://pacific.bizjournals.com/pacific/stories/2001/02/12/daily81.html
The real problem as it stands now is not the volitility of automobiles upon impact, thats been solved with gel bags or something like that..the problem as it stands now is primarily learning how to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen without using fossil fuels. The answer lies in Nanotechnology and recently a large grant was given to further explore this technology as well (google search it, I read an article a few months back).
We'll see hydrogen cars as we do hybrids, sometime in our lifetime I'm sure.
It's ALL good. And those who choose to keep their "classics" will just pay alittle more at the pumps for convention gasoline burning engines. Its not like those will disappear, it will be treated as a luxury item like a boat.
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Me either but I'll bet a gas tank exploding looks tame comparatively.
Doing some reading on current hydrogen tank testing. Looks like they may be able to make them pretty safe.
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I want one of these:
(http://www.sergioleone.net/dm-94.jpg)
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so.. if they are so good and safe and cheap and good for us...
Where are they? Certainly there would be a huge market for such a car...
who would not want a $65,000 front wheel drive 4 door sedan with 80 hp and a 40 mph top speed and a o-60 time of .... infinity?
So you would be comfortable with making it so expensive (tax em into rubble) to own conventional cars that get 25-40 mpg in order to accomplish.... what? making it impossible for a large segment of the population to get around? to be employed?
Letting the technolodgy evolve naturaly would be bad because of... what?
They are getting there but they are a ways off.... don't be such a woman... have some patience. kerries ideas will just screw things up for no real reason at this point.
Look at the great electric car debacle of a few years ago or the smog debacle of the 70's... both government mandates that were too far ahead of their time. both bad ideas poorly implemented... How many examples do you need? Oh, I know... one more... force hydrogen on us.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
so.. if they are so good and safe and cheap and good for us...
Where are they? Certainly there would be a huge market for such a car...
who would not want a $65,000 front wheel drive 4 door sedan with 80 hp and a 40 mph top speed and a o-60 time of .... infinity?
So you would be comfortable with making it so expensive (tax em into rubble) to own conventional cars that get 25-40 mpg in order to accomplish.... what? making it impossible for a large segment of the population to get around? to be employed?
Letting the technolodgy evolve naturaly would be bad because of... what?
They are getting there but they are a ways off.... don't be such a woman... have some patience. kerries ideas will just screw things up for no real reason at this point.
Look at the great electric car debacle of a few years ago or the smog debacle of the 70's... both government mandates that were too far ahead of their time. both bad ideas poorly implemented... How many examples do you need? Oh, I know... one more... force hydrogen on us.
lazs
If you considering the explosive force per unit of Gasoline and Hydrogen, I assure you, a well built, well-engineered Hydrogen engine would probably cut your Elky's time in the 1/4 by one half. ;)
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I'm sure they would be "uber-safe" before GM turned them loose. They now have a 10,000psi tank, look for that to climb.
As a rule you don't see the a high pressure cylinder rupture, it's normally a valve or line that gives way first. I've seen 18 Wheelers hauling LPG slammed into moving freight trains (safety video) and not rupture. Saw the 18 wheeler explode from a static spark during loading, too. The technology is there to make it happen soon.
I'd love it if the middle east lost us as a customer. But then they would hate us for NOT buying their oil. You can't win.
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the point being... if you aren't a knee jerk liberal then you can wait for the thing to be practical and then people will buy it. Some never will. I don't think that it is a good idea to force people to buy junk. it wasn't in the 70's and it wasn't with the 0 emmissions vehicle debacle here in California.
If you simply need to sound sensitive for a girlfriend or boyfriend (I make no judgements) then simply say you are sensitive and caring and liberal and then go out and vote like a man for Bush anyway and quit making a fool of yourself here.
lazs
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Originally posted by rpm371
I'd love it if the middle east lost us as a customer. But then they would hate us for NOT buying their oil. You can't win.
They'll likely find some reason to hate us no matter what. When we don't need their oil we'll have no reason to placate any of them. We can win.
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The point being.... we need to develop alternative energy. It's not just "sensitive, caring, tree-hugging" liberals that are working on this. GM is not exactly "Democrat Central", just ask Michael Moore.
GM and other auto makers see the future rapidly approaching. Why can't you? If those "tree huggers" back in the 60's had not acted when they did, you would be chewing the air before you breathe it in New York, Dallas, Denver and LA today.
Government forced industry to make the move back then. Today industry has taken the lead and government is playing catch up. I don't think it will be a popular switch, and it will be a slow one to boot. But the car as we know it is going to be alongside the Stanley Steamer in a museum before long.
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rpm is right, this is an issue where both Conservatives and Democrats see eye-to-eye, and it needs to happen sooner than later, hopefully they read the"Lessons Learned" sections of the 70's era and the Electric car era.
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Originally posted by Curval
YOU are the reason lazs...and the millions of Americans just like you.
Way to generalize, there Curval. I totally forgot that we're nothing but a nation of big-block V8-driving hicks. Silly me.
I'm still trying to figure out where all this extra electricity that's gonna help power the hybrids is gonna come from. High hopes are a good source of power, I heard.
Is the air in our big cities really that much worse than in Paris or Rome? It sure doesn't smell that way.
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Estimated base price: $55,000 (if mass-produced in 2003)
How many people do you think can afford this?
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Originally posted by Steve
How many people do you think can afford this?
Well, more people will after Kerry raises the average annual income for Native Americans by $40,000.
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Originally posted by lazs2
but wait curval... by your reasoning...
If fossil fuel costs enough then car makers will be forced to embrace expensive alternatives.
No, not at all.
In this particular case any change will be influenced by supply and demand. Cost is merely a function of this.
For example, demand for hybrid, or alternative fuel consuming, cars will increase when either the supply of oil gets very low or if there is sufficient pollution concerns that causes people to re-think fossil fuel useage.
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I got one cool thing from this thread.
A new sig line.
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i don't like Kerry , but i have to go with curval on this, i don't need 400 HP and a 5000# car to go to the super mkt to pick up a 12 pack of beer and a couple of steaks.
BTW when i was young and stupid i did have cars that went "brum brum" and smoked tires, then i grew up.
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Originally posted by Steve
How many people do you think can afford this?
It will be a leasing situation.
The fuelcell program GM is developing will have no outright sales, only leases. You have to remember, you'll never refill it. It will have 200,000 miles of fuel. (GM's claim, not mine)
The current models carry around 170 miles worth of fuel.
Wow, Rip. This is 2 subjects we agree on. Hope for America yet!
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Way to generalize, there Curval. I totally forgot that we're nothing but a nation of big-block V8-driving hicks. Silly me.
I'm still trying to figure out where all this extra electricity that's gonna help power the hybrids is gonna come from. High hopes are a good source of power, I heard.
Is the air in our big cities really that much worse than in Paris or Rome? It sure doesn't smell that way.
No..lazs and a few million of others are, however and they unapologetically pollute while refusing to even consider alternatives. Just read this thread....lazs actually thinks he is helping the situation by driving gas guzzlers.
Look at the Middle East now. It's just an absolute mess. Why? Because that entire region has a whole pile of oil. Sure there are religious issues etc, but the world only gives a crap about the place because it has the dark black stuff. If there was no oil there no-one would consider the problems in the Mid-East anything except the Mid-East's problems.
So...the easiest solution to both environmental and world peace concerns would be to find a cheap alternative to oil...and the synthetics that oil produces.
But no....Lazs wants to have a loud car that goes BRUM BRUM and can put smoke into ricer car drivers faces.
It is all about priorities or more accurately supply and demand.
Now...it is kind of funny because I am finding myself defending a Kerry stance in this thread. I guess the only excuse I have for that is that if there is some cross agreement in certain points they are the ONLY things that I have found myself in agreement with the man.
I hate Kerry. He is threatening to entirely destroy the financial structure upon which my entire country depends on for its sucess.
So...just because I am arguing one point does not make me a Kerry supporter a liberal or a wimp. You Americans love to pigion-hole people into political or social baskets. Easy to do for Americans...you are a democrat or a republican. Not so easy when there is no such thing as a Democrat or Republican here.
Now...if you took the time to read the link I posted you would see that the car produces its own electricity...by MOVING! Imagine that. Very simple concept and one used today in regular cars.
Other big cities are actually DOING something. Notice that the link I posted details a plan to sell the kits to convert existing cars to hybrid staus to all London taxis. The company has signed a deal with Puralator Courier...a Canadian operation.
Paris and Rome...they will be along shortly.
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this is funny as heck... If you read what we are all saying we are saying pretty much the same thing.
I say that we will need to develop alternative fuels and vehicles.. I say that GM and others are working furiously to do it. I say that when they do and the vehicles aren't crap.. and not expensive and not totally impractical...
people will buy em. Some dumb ****s will buy em before that... curval and rpm want to force us all to be dumb ****s and do it before we need to at great expense...
This is what happened in the 70's Smog mandates were too much for carburators... until electronic controls it was impractical to get below a certain level on particle emmissons... they were mandated anyway and it about wrecked the economy while actually making things worse. All th ewhile the manufacturers were working on the technolodgy to make the cars run clean and work well... they finaly did it but it wasn't because of mandates it was because computers caught up with the auto industry...
California mandated "zero emmissons" cars a couple years back... it produced a lot of unviable failures.
So what is curval telling me? That I am not open to alternatives? BS... I am allways open to alternatives... I am a Hot Rodder and reloader for ammo... No... he wants to jamb half baked ideas down my throat and make me pay more to have less... He wants us to suffer as much as europe and for about the same result.
When the tech gets good enough you will see the cars... a 40 mph front wheel drive sedan that is explosive and costs $65,000 is not an "alternative" it is a joke... or, at best... embryonic.
The question is.... How has the $6 a gallon cost of fuel in europe helped to develop alternative fuels?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
This is what happened in the 70's Smog mandates were too much for carburators... until electronic controls it was impractical to get below a certain level on particle emmissons... they were mandated anyway and it about wrecked the economy while actually making things worse. All th ewhile the manufacturers were working on the technolodgy to make the cars run clean and work well... they finaly did it but it wasn't because of mandates it was because computers caught up with the auto industry...
California mandated "zero emmissons" cars a couple years back... it produced a lot of unviable failures. lazs
Lazs, do you think these 'computers caught up with the auto industry' on thier own, or do you believe they caught up becauce the government mandated the Auto Industry to do this and the auto industry adapted?
And what mandates are different for carburators as opposed to new fuel delivery systems? Smog control is smog control.. The same systems or better systems are in place..
This is a clear example of government giving the push and forcing a industry to adapt and better themselfs and their customers. It DOES have its place..
In looking back, have these smog controls helped us or hurt us? Have they helped the auto industry or hurt it? IMO, it has helped across the board...
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Originally posted by rpm371
You have to remember, you'll never refill it. It will have 200,000 miles of fuel. (GM's claim, not mine)
Nah, that's the life expectancy of the fuel cell. Will still require a constant supply of hydrogen.
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Originally posted by lazs2
this is funny as heck... If you read what we are all saying we are saying pretty much the same thing.
I say that we will need to develop alternative fuels and vehicles.. I say that GM and others are working furiously to do it. I say that when they do and the vehicles aren't crap.. and not expensive and not totally impractical...
people will buy em. Some dumb ****s will buy em before that... curval and rpm want to force us all to be dumb ****s and do it before we need to at great expense...
This is what happened in the 70's Smog mandates were too much for carburators... until electronic controls it was impractical to get below a certain level on particle emmissons... they were mandated anyway and it about wrecked the economy while actually making things worse. All th ewhile the manufacturers were working on the technolodgy to make the cars run clean and work well... they finaly did it but it wasn't because of mandates it was because computers caught up with the auto industry...
lazs
Why do you think the manufacturers were working so hard to get it done? The kindness of their hearts? What whacked Detroit in the 70's was building crap cars while Japan was cranking out good reliable inexpensive ones. Greed, arrogance and mismanagement were the problem then.
You have to set goals for industry. This is a good one.
I am not trying to force you to live in the new century. Heck, you can be amish live like it's 1880 for all I care. Just don't gripe about progress while you do it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
The question is.... How has the $6 a gallon cost of fuel in europe helped to develop alternative fuels?
lazs
Lazs, cost is NOT the issue. It is supply and demand. It makes not one speck of difference how much something costs if there is no demand. Comprendo?
...and by the by...Azure is a Canadian based company that is selling, right now, into European markets...you know, the link I posted that you didn't read.
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and curval... I have nothing against the pioneers or martyrs that jump into the alternative thing with both feet.... more power to em but...
Don't mandate that I be forced to accept substandard products that are in alpha stage of development just to make you feel good or because you are tired of someone having fun or feel like they are kicking sand in your face when they make noise and do burnouts.
If they want to run taxis on alternative fuels or hybrids before it is time then I say let em. Don't make me pay for it tho. It won't help in any case... it will happen when it happens. Some way of doing something will make it more practical and that in turn will make people develop even more things that will work.
What do you propose? create a crisis??? an artifical and useless "demand"?
Why isn't there any demand? at $6 a gallon for fuel there sure as hell shoulda been by now! How do you propsose we create this "demand" in the U.S. where europe has failed even with it's confiscatory taxes?
Oh, I get it... simply outlaw fossil fuel or.... maybe make it $8 a gallon? What are you trying rto accomplish and how far are you willing to go to do it?
I don't see how you would do it... Do you think kerries 50 cent a gallon tax is gonna do it?
lazs
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Aha...but lazs, I'm an INVESTOR. In the tradition of free enterprise and capitalism I have invested in a product that will benefit you and millions of other American big block owners. You will breathe easier and drive cheaper. It is all to help you....and me. This is free enterprise I am talking about...you show me where Azure Dynamics has cost you a cent.
Forget Kerry and his politics. Embrace what I am saying.
Trust me man, you'll be better off.
The only downside is that you won't think you look quite so cool...and your engine noise won't scare away little old ladies with weak hearts.
You seem to think that hybrids etc are a thing of the future. You are wrong. They are here, now. You just won't even consider them unless they make alot of noise and go real fast.
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Originally posted by john9001
i don't like Kerry , but i have to go with curval on this, i don't need 400 HP and a 5000# car to go to the super mkt to pick up a 12 pack of beer and a couple of steaks.
BTW when i was young and stupid i did have cars that went "brum brum" and smoked tires, then i grew up.
I agree with everyone else here in that we'll need to cut dependency on Mideast oil eventually, sooner the better. I like the hydrogen fuel cell system. However, I do not agree with forcing people to live the way you want them to live. See my sig. Although you might not see a need for something, that doesn't mean you must legislate it to death. That includes guns, fast cars, fast boats, fast planes, even things like big honking SUVs. At first I had the same feeling you do about SUVs. Why are people buying them just for tooling around city streets? So that they can be safer than the poor occupants in the little import car they just crushed in a head on? But thinking it over a bit, why should I infringe on what car they choose to drive? That would be like them infringing on my choice of firearm. Or where I live. So I don't worry about what other people drive anymore. I do worry about how stupid certain drivers are though.
Personally, I wanted a VW Jetta with their TDI (Turbo Direct Injection - Diesel) engine. Great mileage (40's I think - still not as good as gas/electric). Their dealer didn't have it at the time so I missed out and got a normal gas-engined Jetta instead. Recently I saw and read news reports of some guys using used cooking oil with some additives to run diesel engines. It's called Biodiesel http://www.biodiesel.org/.
I must read more on the current state of hydrogen power in cars. What will change besides not having to fill up? Will it be "my" car or will they all be leased? I think when you can get a car for about $10k-$15k (about the range of a baseline Honda Civic, Toyota Corolla) then it'll be accepted that much faster.
mauser
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Originally posted by mauser
I must read more on the current state of hydrogen power in cars. What will change besides not having to fill up?
mauser
You will always have to "fill up". With what just depends on the technology. The Hy-Wire being developed by GM posted earlier in this thread has compressed hydrogen tanks and at 5,000 psi (current configuration) have a range of approximately 200km. Well, they don't specify that exactly but it is alluded to.
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Ok... do you own one? why don't I see em on the road?
If they are here now and cheap and practical and reliable then why does kerry need 50 cents a gallon on fuel to get us out of conventional vehicles?
Invest all you want... I probly own stock in some group that is involved with hybrids myself.... that doesn't mean I want to force people into em.
You claim I will be better off if i throw all my guns into the ocean too... seems giving up something is allways your path to being better off.
No problem tho... if they are as good as you claim and the fact that hybrids here by the likes of honda are not doing what they claim...well.... maybe honda just doensn't know how to build cars. maybe if we forced em?
maybe azure dynamics is the only manufacturer who knows how to build cars...
I told you that I am not against them competing in the market place.... you tell me that they are better and cheap and cheaper to run and reliable...
What's the problem?
I hope they work great and are cheapern dirt. If so... they will take their rightful place as the dominant manufacturer sooner rather than later.
What would you be willing to do to help "prod" them along? To "prod" us into buying them? tax breaks? confiscatory taxes for those who didn't drive em? maybe jail time for fossil fuel burners? What?
Oh.... And I look cool no matter what I do.
lazs
I
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and john... if you had 5000 lb cars with 400 hp then you never did know what it is all about. You wouldn't know what is involved and so just sit on your fat butt and drink your beer and eat your steak...
Hot rods are beyond you... is that your girlfriend calling? Better get those steaks on before she decides that you are too grown up for meat and beer eh?
lazs
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Some people are so dense.
America isn't about what you need. If need was all that mattered we'd all be living in tiny apartments with few creature comforts surrounded by out-dated technology.
Hmm that sounds like some other countries I can think of.
America is about what you want and being able to attain it.
You don't need that 400 HP car as a daily driver--but if you want it then that's your right because this is the USA.
The Socialist-leaning Liberals would of course change all that because they don't understand the difference between need and want . The entire POINT of the "American Dream" is to move beyond having what you need and getting what you want .
So...I can get an underpowered, unreliable, unsafe, overly complex car for only 65 grand? Geez....that is exactly WHY the hybrids don't sell yet--the technology is not mature. You can get an underpowred unreliale unsafe tin-can gas car for like 1/6 that or less and have the bonus of being able to work on it yourself with normal tools. Mass transit is not a viable alternative--it has been proven again and again that people HATE mass transit and will not use it unless they HAVE to. Of course the socialist-leaning people would force people to use it because to them, what people WANT is irrevelant.
Yet....I don't see any world leaders driving around in little tin-can Honda Hybrid POS junkmobiles all the time. Why can't they lead by example? Oh wait, their precious life is actually worth something so they need their 8 MPG Mercedes that can survive a hit from an anti-tank missle while cruising in ultimate luxury....but us ordinary peons...well we must not matter.
Some of the Socialist-leaning people might not understand, but Lazs is correct. The technology needs to mature before the public will accept it.
For the record I drive a full-size 4 door sedan that gets about 23 MPG. Small cars like Hondas are unsafe for the road.
J_A_B
EDIT--Note that I am not blaming any particular political party, just a specific mindset.
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The problem, specifically in the United States, is what I have been trying to tell you all day. There is very little DEMAND in the US. The reason is that Americans are so in love with gas guzzling big block beasts that the market is very limited right now.
So, this particular company decided to stay away from the consumer market and sell to large fleet owning companies, such as Puralator and the London taxis. If it works...and the signs are very very positive, then you might see alot of them very soon.
Of course you will snicker and point just like the sand kicking bully. But what happened to that guy at the end of the story? If I recall he caught an ass-whoopin.
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My Lincoln Town car is getting 23-24 MPG and my grand daughter is very safe in it. It is like driving your lazyboy. I have satalite radio.
I drive my hot rods any time I don't have to take people. All of my faint hearted friends and relatives seem to show reluctance at riding with me in them anyway. Oddly... they like the Lincoln.
lazs
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JAB...I am so far from being a frigging socialist it isn't funny. Typical though that you immediately do the pigion holing exercise as soon as you enter this thread.
Lets say I WANT a needle full of heroin a day man?
Oddly the land of the free has made that illegal. Why is that?
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wait a minute curval... Are you saying that there is no demand for cars that are cheap and don't use hardly any fuel and that it is the fault of big bloclk classic car owners? Makes you sound like you llive on a tiny little isalnd somewhere and know nothing about Americans.
If there is no demand then it means the product is no good.
What would you do to create a demand?
I would make the product better. Seems you would outlaw competition... that seems pretty socialist to me.
But maybe I am wrong.... what would you do? Why is there no "demand" if the product is so good? Because they look silly? you must have the answer... spit it out.
Oh... and so far as I am concerned.... drugs should be legal but any employer has the right to fire anyone on drugs and if you have drugs in your system I don't want you to be on the road with me.
lazs
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"There is very little DEMAND in the US. The reason is that Americans are so in love with gas guzzling big block beasts that the market is very limited right now. "
Maybe you should look up how many "big block" cars are sold by the major automakers. That's right, barely any.
There is little demand because you have to pay 50-65 thousand for a hybrid car that is no better than a junky $10,000 gas car and is in some says worse. As the technology matures it will become cheaper, and better. Instead of 75 HP $55,000 Honda hybrids they'll develop 200 HP full-size Hybrids that sell for 25,000....and THEN people will buy them.
Noody is saying that we refuse to accept new technology. We are ONLY saying that we don't want to be force-fed immature tech that is inferior to what we already have. Noody wants to take a step backwards! I'll happily buy a fuel-cell or even a Hybrid once it is as good--or even close--to the car I drive now.
"Lets say I WANT a needle full of heroin a day man? Oddly the land of the free has made that illegal. Why is that?"
Because it is impossible to use it and remain a responsible citizen. Red Herring and totally unrelated issue.
And....why do you think I'm calling *you* a socialist? I don't think I mentioned you specifically anywhere in my post. Only now am I responding directly to you Curval. While you may not be a socialist, you may well agree with a socialist perspective on some issues. Which is good in a way even if I disagree; at least it means you're making up your own mind instead of just following some party line like some individuals do. I don't much care for political parties either.
This issue, for me, is going to determine who don't I vote for. I'm glad someone posted it because I hadn't seen it and I was previously undecided. I dnno who I WILL vote for just yet, but the list just got smaller. I may boycott the presidential race for lack of someone I really like.
J_A_B
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Where on earth did I say that I would outlaw the competition?
While it might back up your argument that I am a socialist it has no basis in fact at all.
JAB- call them big blocks, oversized SUVs, whatever...I was using that as a point against lazs, who is a big block kind of guy. I really meant all gas guzzlers, not just big blocks.
You guys are focused on the cost of cars being built from scratch. None of you guys looked at the link I put up. The kits are made for existing cars. They haven't been targeted at the joe consumer for the reasons mentioned. If they take off in the large fleet owning companies they will come down to consumers very quickly.
Now...you dismiss my ponit about heroin as being a red-herring. Fact is that sooner or later we are going to see hybrid and alternative fuel source cars. Why? We have laws that limit emissions? Why? If I want to drive around in a non-standard emission car I could be pulled over and arrested? Why? I would be driving it in the land of the free, where wants are more important than needs.
If I am gay and WANT to get married to another man I cannot do so. Funny that...many of the same people who refuse any sort of restrictions on firearms or cars feel that it is perfectly okay to legislate against a WANT that lots of gay people have.
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The problem, specifically in the United States, is what I have been trying to tell you all day. There is very little DEMAND in the US. The reason is that Americans are so in love with gas guzzling big block beasts that the market is very limited right now.
Curval, with respect sir, you are wrong. There are many business that are dependent on vehicles, mine included. I'd use any alternate form of fuel if it was cheaper than gas in my comapny vehicles. Slightly over 10% of my gross income goes straight into the gas tanks.
Edit: providing the original purchase price of the vehicle(s) is not cost prohibitive.
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I'm not wrong. Check out the link. Your company simply hasn't done enough investigation or isn't serious about spending the money right now to upgrade their fleet. Take a look.
To prove this you talk about the purchase price of the vehicle . It is a kit fitted onto existing vehicles that I am talking about.
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I read the link in the first post. If there was a second link later in I may have missed it dueu to jumping into the thread when it was already on the second page. I'm about to go out and I'll look for a second link when I get home.
I maintain that most people do not really CARE what powers their car. Like I said....give me a fuel-cell car or a hybrid that is as good as what I drive now for the same price, and I'll happily switch. The technology will get there.
My car is the sort of car environmentalistis dislike....big and V-8. Yet--it gets better mileage than most of the "economy" cars of the 1970's. That is my basic point--technology improves with time. The Hybrids and fuel-cell cars I've yet seen just aren't ready yet. Give them a few more years.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by john9001
i don't like Kerry , but i have to go with curval on this, i don't need 400 HP and a 5000# car to go to the super mkt to pick up a 12 pack of beer and a couple of steaks.
BTW when i was young and stupid i did have cars that went "brum brum" and smoked tires, then i grew up.
If growing up means outgrowing the desire for toys and things that are designed more for fun than practicality, then it's a stage of life I never want to go through.
No, the 400 hp car doesn't have to be the one you take to the grocery store, but it will be a sad day when they're extinct, plain and simple.
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curval... besides the point that you don't know what Americans drive or will drive....
You are wrong.. both Steve and JAB are correct... Americans that use cars for bussiness don't care what powers their cars so long as the maintenance and fuel costs are low and the vehicle will do what they need it to do.
Americans embrace new things faster than any people on earth... even nutty ones... If it was even half decent and would be legal we would see thousnads of em... look at all the allmost worthless hybrids you see.
What exacly is a "gas guzzler" to you and... you still haven't told me what you would do to force people into these conversions. You say something about mandating lower emissions when in fact, new cars put out miniscule amounts of pollutants... better to take these engines and use em to drive generators to power our cities and do away with coal than to replace our automobiles.
lazs
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plus... what article? I went to the link and saw an add for a canadian (yep, canadian) company that makes hybrids and conversions but no real data. We are somehow to believe that they are light years ahead of chyrsler and honda and GM in the game and that unlike the Honda say, they actually live up to their claims... the normal in use hybrid car gets about 2/3 or less the milage that is advertised for it unless it is in total stop and go traaffic.
I have bought canadian software hardware devices (flow monitoring) and my take is that it wouldn' t take much to be an award winner in that group.
lazs
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lazs, I am beginning to see your point now. If it isn't being mass produced right now and in most household cars then it is a fly-by-night thing and...what...ignored? Data isn't going to convince you of anything...same way all that data about guns in that book you wanted me to read would have convinced me of nothing.
I've said it before...these kits are not for private cars. This is a commercial venture...they are only contracting with large carriers.
Besides, if you passed a converted truck or van, in this case, you would have NO idea it was converted.
The idea wasn't considered for the private market because of guys like you. That is my point. You will resist it because it impinges upon your personal liberties. In this case it involves your car and your freedom to make lots of noise.
Eventually your Elky, or whatever it is called, will be an outlawed thing. It will be seen to be impinging upon everyone else's liberties by belching out horrible black smoke. In a way it is a big old cigarette you are driving, and you are the Marlboro man.
I think you see this coming...and it scares the heck out of you.
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Quote:
"who would not want a $65,000 front wheel drive 4 door sedan with 80 hp and a 40 mph top speed and a o-60 time of .... infinity? "
Hmmm, 80hp, 40mph "Econo-Box" with no acceleration?
Think of the thousands of dedicated Tree-Huggers, Socialists, Commies, Liberals, Hippies, Anarchists, and other royal pain-in-the-asses who would be removed from the ranks of the living driving these pieces of crap on roads jammed with 80,000 pound eighteen-wheelers, Soccer Moms "driving" Urban Assault Vehicles, and certain ethnic groups "driving" 10-20 year-old Cadillacs.
Get these cars on the market now!!
C.
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think whatever you please... the Hot rod industry is a multi billion dollar industry that isn't going anywhere in the forseeable future but....
when do you get your conversion? i't s ordered allready right? I mean if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem right?
let me know how you like it.
And... you are wrong. if these hybrids ever become practical and I have a usre for em like jab or steve or even as a commuter... I will get one... I will still have my Hot Rods and they will be an even bigger source of pleasure no doubt.
Where is your data. I can show you data for firearms and I can point to the real world milage figures and costs for real world hybrids but you point to an add! I have learned that canadians are world leaders in beer and salesmen.
you are just being taken in by what you want to believe for whatever reason.
The hybrids will get better... they might be obsolete tho by the time they get good enough to matter... you will be stuck with one of the lemons tho cause you really don't know anything about vehicles.
I hope they didn't talk you into investing too much and I hope your conversion isn't too expensive a mistake.
I will be vaporizing rear tires and shooting guns for a long long time to come even if kerry thinks they are bad for me...
They are no worse for the environment than all the gas powered lawn tools the average guy uses.
lazs
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I will think what I please...thanks.
Lazs, I know it is tough but I'll say it again. This particular hybrid kit is not availiable for private vehicles. It is a commercial venture, they are only contracting with large carriers. Next time I'll just quote myself to save some time.
I sold my 2 strioke scooter and got a more environmentally sound 4 stroke recently. I'll be happy to get you the info on the mileage I get, but I think you already get the point there. I personally emit about the same pollution as one of those lawn tools I imagine.
If you really want data on the Azure stuff I can find it for you in the morning. It is all filed away.
I personally didn't invest much, its certainly not a portfolio mover or breaker. But, your concern for my financial welfare is noted.
I'm a little concerned about you going down in a hail of bullets, or getting burned up, "Koresh style" in about twenty years, though, defending to the last your right to "drive loud and shoot stuff". I hope I'm wrong.
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You'll pry my V8 powered cars out of my cold dead hands.....
(http://home.comcast.net/~tomsarina/wsb/media/260858/site1004.jpg)
(http://home.comcast.net/~tomsarina/wsb/media/260858/site1005.jpg)
I am sure the next thing we will be told is that we don't need all that square footage in our house. I mean, look at all the natural gas and electricity we burn up just to keep our 2500 square foot house warm. Why, we need to stop that. It's not right, Its not fair . In Japan they live in a 4x6 cubicle and you don't hear them complain.
I'm looking into a Toyota Prius myself. I want a car that gets decent gas mileage for work. However I don't want anyone telling me that I 'must' do something just because it is good for me. It will start with one thing then degenerate into another.
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Originally posted by Curval
I'm a little concerned about you going down in a hail of bullets, or getting burned up, "Koresh style" in about twenty years, though, defending to the last your right to "drive loud and shoot stuff". I hope I'm wrong.
What about my right to eat red meat? You know, the kind of food that's exceedingly inefficient in terms of the amount of land, grain and manpower it requires to bring to the market? Furthermore and it's been proven to promote cancer and raise your LDL levels. Don't forget the methane these animals produce. Why don't we put limitations on that(for now), so that in twenty years, it can be banned altogether.
Industrial Chicken farming has been raising nitrogen levels in the Chesapeake for the last twenty years, clouding the water with algea and causing a steady decline in shellfish landings... On top of that, it's just not as pretty...Away with poultry, for christsakes. The huddled masses will do just find sucking on carrots.
What about my right to keep my house at 73 degrees during the winter verses 75?
The fact of the matter is, many modern cars, even the overpowered porsches and ferraris, put out comparetively little greenhouses gas. The ferrari 550, in particular, has extremely low emissions rates. A comparison was featured in a Car and Driver article a few years back, where they tested modern sports cars against contemporary California emissions standards(google it if you care)... Why bother making things like this illegal? Raise the price of gas if need be, stick to emissions standards, hell, make them even more stingent, but to say no, across the board, to machines that given their numbers, are little more than an easy target for legislation... This definitely smells of something stinkier than dirty air.
Personally, I'm amazed at how readily accepting some people are towards these seemingly justifiable limitations to their freedoms of ownership. All for the sake of the greater good.
I feel sorry for those who are addicted to existing on the cutting edge of compromise.
On that same note, Lazs, may you live to see your grandchildren vaporize many a tire.
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Personally, I'm amazed at how readily accepting some people are towards these seemingly justifiable limitations to their freedoms of ownership. All for the sake of the greater good.
I know, those selfish jerks....
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Originally posted by hawker238
I know, those selfish jerks....
My point was that many of these sacrfices are questionable in their benefits to the greater good. And the people that make these sacrifices are often do it as a knee-jerk response... I'm not saying that Curval is one of these people, but you can bet that they'll show up in droves to support legislation that in the end, will have little or no positive impact.
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Curval, you might as well give up. You have now been branded a communist , tree hugging, Ameeerika hatin', Kerry lovin' libral by the NeoCons. You can never again say anything that makes any sense without being shouted down.
Welcome to the club. :aok
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"about spending the money right now to upgrade their fleet."
I should get rid of perfectly good running vehicles, regardless of the expense.
What link?
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lol rpm...
Steve...the link to Azure is in my third or forth post.
No need to get rid of your existing vehicles, these guys make "kits" that convert the trucks/vans etc into a hybrid. This is about the forth or fifth time I've mentioned that in this thread.
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(http://home.earthlink.net/~broc7/b/kerry-herman.jpg)
40K MORE A YEAR FOR EVERY INJUN WHO VOTES FOR ME AND A BRAND NEW TEN SPEED IN EVERY HOME, (cept me and my limos)
(http://www.campyonly.com/images/modbikes/2002/c40lg1.jpg)
WHILE RAISING TAXES ON EVERYTHING AND EVERYBODY TO PAY FOR MY HOT AIR GAS BAG IDEAS (cept the majority of those who vote me in cause you guys don't make enough to pay taxes to start with, those of you that actually have a job and show up for work)"
I'M SKEERY KERRY AND I APPROVE THIS MESSAGE!!!(http://students.ou.edu/S/Matt.H.Shilling-1/frank_files/image008.jpg)
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Originally posted by lazs2
Now... let's summarize shall we? Yu know barely enough about mechanical things to fill a thimble with room left over for all you know about cars. You bought into an add by a (snicker) canadian company on the premise that they have developed a hybrid and a kit that is far superior to any that honda, toyota, or GM has been able to come up with...
lol...lazs, if you think for one second that I would invest my money in something based upon an "ad" you are nuts.
We shall see who is right on this one...won't be too long now.
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hey... I've heard that before... back in the 70's when guys were investing in electric car conversion companies. Hope I'm wrong.
I hope that yours is much better but there are paralells don't you see? they are basically saying that they can do what the big companies can't.
I hope you make a bundle and that all the companies out here convert to them and that billions of gallons of gas are saved every year... That will drive the price down.
I refuse to feel to guilt for not embracing this new plan tho since... by your own admission... they don't have the guts to sell to individuals and the hybrids that are available are not exactly ready for prime time.
more people driving these things means cheaper gas for me... win win so far as I can see.
lazs
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Oh, and hybrids are not a new thing... trains have been hybrids for half a century... submarines have allways been hybrids.
That doesn't mean your lawnmower or airplane or power boat or motorcycle or muscle car should be one.
and... what "won't be too long now"? your company get in the black? I hope so... a major portion of the commercial fleet of the U.S. and europe all using the canadian conversion? everyone being mandated to drive a hybrid?
The first I hope happens for your sake. The others will take a while you might have to gloat to my grandchildren.
lazs
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Originally posted by rpm371
Curval, you might as well give up. You have now been branded a communist , tree hugging, Ameeerika hatin', Kerry lovin' libral by the NeoCons. You can never again say anything that makes any sense without being shouted down.
Welcome to the club. :aok
Is it me, or do only liberals use :aok when they're trying to make a point?
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rpm... seriously man... when have you ever said anything that made sense?
lazs