Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Mugzeee on July 12, 2004, 04:35:13 PM
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I guess i had forgotten how large the Hit Sprites were in real life. After watching some Gun Cam films on Discovery Wings this weekend. I noted that the Hit Sprites were very visable, like they were in AH1 are in WB and IL2. What was the reason for making the Hit Sprites teeny tiny in Ah2 again?
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"realism" whiners.
go figure.
;)
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so Ah2 Realistic Hit Sprites=Oxymoron?
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Pretty much Mugz.
There's just too many things that Dale or who ever have changed that just drew me further and further a way from the game. I have reached the point now where the game I loved to play... I really couldn't give two... well you know... about now. This is for more than a few reasons. Reasons which I wont get into. But again, why should I bother voicing anything if it will just be over looked like this thread? ;)
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
I guess i had forgotten how large the Hit Sprites were in real life. After watching some Gun Cam films on Discovery Wings this weekend. I noted that the Hit Sprites were very visable, like they were in AH1 are in WB and IL2. What was the reason for making the Hit Sprites teeny tiny in Ah2 again?
I actually prefer it now, you've got to really have some good aim and concentration to consistantly get good damage espeically on any kind of deflection shot. Spraying and Praying is now extinct.
Zaz
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You can't tell me seeing hit sprites through the dash is more realistic!
While I can see your point I think your missing the big picture.
HT & co by changeing icons, hit flashes, & range counters actually made the gameplay a lot MORE realistic overall.
If one small item like hit flashes has to suffer as a result, to me thats acceptable.
I do think that the hit flashes for cannon should be bigger & last longer than those for mg's.
I also am hopefull that MANY things can be improved upon once they get rolling.
But right now they are too busy figureing out what the problems are.
Give em a bit of time.
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1) the general distance guncam footages were recorded in the first place is even more closer than in AH
2) overexposure to light working in the films, exaggerates any light source
3) the guncams roll about 1/3rd real life speed - AP hit marks go 'spark' and then instantly disappear in real life, as opposed to the 'residue' of hit sprites as seen in AH1.
4) Hit sprites in AH are still very visible upto a certain range. Only when the distance is really far, it gets hard to see. Do you think you can see someone flick a lighter 6 football fields away in daylight?
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Some points I do agree.
The conditions surrounding hit sprites have changed albeit slightly, but it still uses the old pale graphics which can be hard to see during maneuvering. And there's no difference between AP and HE rounds.
IL-2/FB uses hitsprites for AP ammunition in the same way as AH - it is much brighter and visible than compared to AH, but it is actually smaller in size.
The cannon hits use different methods, which is very visible since they explode on impact. AH could really use these kinda effects.
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I still see hit sprites............
They are smaller but its still seems unrealistic to me to get feed back from a hit sprite at 600 yards...........
IMO 12.7mm ap rounds (and smaller) should not give the same effect as exploding cannon rounds.
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What Kweassa pointed out is that almost all gun camera films you see is up close and personal (100 meters or less, often down at 50 meters) While in AH you get most kills at 200-300.
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He has a good point.
I had a pony I was manuvering with fly in front of me last night at 50 yards.
I happened to be up in the Yak9t. 1 quick pop of the trigger, I saw this huge hit flash, and procedded to ignore the pony cause I knew he was toast.
Sure enough some 20 seconds later he hit the dirt tailess. :)
My point, at that range you could not MISS seeing the hit flash.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
You can't tell me seeing hit sprites through the dash is more realistic!
Who the heck said anything about seeing through the insturment panel? I think changing that was very appropriate.
Originally posted by Ghosth
While I can see your point I think your missing the big picture.!
Many of you in HTCs corner of (they cant do no wrong) feel that any idea or subject not in agreement with HTC ideas "Dont see the big picture" Ever thought that you might be the one with the blinders on?
Originally posted by Ghosth
HT & co by changeing icons, hit flashes, & range counters actually made the gameplay a lot MORE realistic overall..![/B]
In you opinion. Thats fine...see above comment.
Originally posted by Ghosth
I do think that the hit flashes for cannon should be bigger & last longer than those for mg's[/B]
Again..reasoning that doesnt make common sense. Im not trying to be rude sir. But read it yourself. It doesent make sense.
Originally posted by Ghosth
I also am hopefull that MANY things can be improved upon once they get rolling.
But right now they are too busy figureing out what the problems are.
Give em a bit of time. [/B]
This seems to be a disclaimer on all of the above. I will have no further comment to you on this subject but to say are entitiled to you opinion. And i respect it. But i dont agree with it.
regards.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
1) the general distance guncam footages were recorded in the first place is even more closer than in AH
2) overexposure to light working in the films, exaggerates any light source
3) the guncams roll about 1/3rd real life speed - AP hit marks go 'spark' and then instantly disappear in real life, as opposed to the 'residue' of hit sprites as seen in AH1.
4) Hit sprites in AH are still very visible upto a certain range. Only when the distance is really far, it gets hard to see. Do you think you can see someone flick a lighter 6 football fields away in daylight?
..
Some points I do agree.
The conditions surrounding hit sprites have changed albeit slightly, but it still uses the old pale graphics which can be hard to see during maneuvering. And there's no difference between AP and HE rounds.
IL-2/FB uses hitsprites for AP ammunition in the same way as AH - it is much brighter and visible than compared to AH, but it is actually smaller in size.
The cannon hits use different methods, which is very visible since they explode on impact. AH could really use these kinda effects.
You are going to have to give some HARD evidence of your Vast Knowledg of "Real Life" experience with such things sir. You constantly speak as if you have experienced ALL the subjects you comment on as if its First Person experience. You must be 100 years old. The Hit sprites are still WAY smaller at ANY distance you wish to compare them. If you like it fine. I dont. I think its a rediculas modification.
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whoops
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Point was it was unrealistic, and got fixed, as soon as possible. k?
Whoa, backup ahead a second.
There have been many times that I've been critical of what I've seen from HTC.
I have stood face to face with HT and argued my reasons. Some like to think I'm a HTC fanboi, thats fine, thats their opinion. I know better.
But MOST of the time this game has done nothing but consistantly, carefully
grow, gain in features, gain in realism. Or at least more realistic gameplay.
The problem is that those 2 things shall never meet. Realism & realistic gameplay.
I'd rather have the latter to the expense of the former. Cause I have to tell you, its 2004, THERE IS NO REALISM.
Ohh yess just IMO of course.
Last
.50 caliber mg ammo was typically loaded with a mix of ammuntion.
Including AP, API (incendiary) & tracers.
Do you know how big a .50 cal bullet is?
DO you know how much "Flash" it could create on impact?
20mm rounds are actually (if they are HE, not AP) mini hand gernades. Ask pyro to post his ammuntion collection again mugz. for a good idea of the difference.
One of them exploding in/on a plane should be like a super flash bulb going off. It would light up the whole plane.
It would be SIGNIFICANTLY bigger, brighter, than a mere .50 api round going flash.
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Oh if I only had somewhere to post all these movies I have of hit sprites... it would prove Ghosth's point.
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As far as I know hit sprites are caused by a coating on the bullet - I think magnezium was used - The 303 rifle calibre ammo used by the raf had this,and you can see the sparks,but some of them, had their convergence set to 150 yards!!
I still see hit sprites,because I have to be 200 or closer to have any chance of a kill.My gunnery stinks!
I liked AH I ,but AH II will be better,they just need time.
I can't think of another game were you get to talk to the owner,and he does listen.
When people whined about the lack of a locking tail wheel,a few days later we had a locking tail wheel.
Where else would you get that!:)
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There are ABSOLUTLY NO hit sprites in real life. A sprite is a two dimensional image. In real life they're called explosions.
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Oh if I only had somewhere to post all these movies I have of hit sprites... it would prove Ghosth's point.
Email me, I'll host them.
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You are going to have to give some HARD evidence of your Vast Knowledg of "Real Life" experience with such things sir. You constantly speak as if you have experienced ALL the subjects you comment on as if its First Person experience. You must be 100 years old. The Hit sprites are still WAY smaller at ANY distance you wish to compare them. If you like it fine. I dont. I think its a rediculas modification.
How big is your monitor compared to a real plane cockpit? Are you aware that the actual size of the gunsight, is when it is max zoomed in?
If you want to see hitsprites out to that far, then "zoom in" dude. It's still clearly visible when you do that.
Or are you asking for hit sprites, which represents a mere pinch of incendiary material tipped on the head of the machine gun round, to be easily visible in your normal view at a distance of 5~6 football fields away?
That would make the 'sparks' created by metallic shells/incendiary rounds the size of a basketball in proportion to the size and distance of the plane. More like a SWAT flashbang than a 'spark'.
Are you saying that's more realistic?
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Make 'em bigger please HTC. Most of us are not 20 years old with perfect eyesight any more. Give us old farts a break please; we have a hard enough time seeing the plane let alone tracers and hit sprites. It's only a game.
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"If you want to see hitsprites out to that far, then "zoom in" dude. It's still clearly visible when you do that. "
So insanely narrow tunnel vision is somehow more realistic than being able to see hit flashes with a larger (still too small) amount of vision?
You are equating difficulty with realism.
If you LIKE it better, than that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However perhaps you should stop claiming one is somehow more "realistic" than the other when they're BOTH a compromise. If you like added difficulty that's fine. Just present it as such.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Kweassa
How big is your monitor compared to a real plane cockpit? Are you aware that the actual size of the gunsight, is when it is max zoomed in?
If you want to see hitsprites out to that far, then "zoom in" dude. It's still clearly visible when you do that.
"Dude" I cant even see hit sprites/explosions at 50 yards on my FE. You think i make this watermelon up?
Maybe its because i have to keep all Graphic Detail sliders at Far Right (Performance) to keep stutters a little more tolerable?
Yes i know how to zoom and yes i use it. and No it isnt helping.
Originally posted by Kweassa
Or are you asking for hit sprites, which represents a mere pinch of incendiary material tipped on the head of the machine gun round, to be easily visible in your normal view at a distance of 5~6 football fields away?
Answering without the sarcasim. No.
I am asking to be able to see Hits period.
Hits are barely visable at 50 yards on my FE. I can only see them at Point Blank range. Like 30 yards even less.
Originally posted by Kweassa
That would make the 'sparks' created by metallic shells/incendiary rounds the size of a basketball in proportion to the size and distance of the plane. More like a SWAT flashbang than a 'spark'.
Are you saying that's more realistic?
I wasnt the one who brought up How Hit Sprite/Explosions are ommited.
Im not actually arguing whats realistic or what isnt. Except to say that some ppl think the current settings are more realistic. I say that from my angle they are just as un-realistic as before, only now they are different. I just want to enjoy playing AH2. Obviously you and some others are seeing things that i cant. Happy hunting.
Originally posted by Pyro
Basic system requirements for AH2 are as follows: 850 MHz processor, 256 MB memory, GeForce 2 or equivalent video card. You may be able to run it to your satisfaction with a lesser system, but a lesser system will probably not have a compatible video card unless that was previously upgraded.
Do you suppose that the Hit Sprites are diminished when (Graphic Detail) settings are at (Performance) posistion?
Yes they are. At performance settings the Hits are far less visable than at (Detailed) settings.
BTW I play on a 21 inch Cornerstone Monitor.
My video card was upgraded in preparation of AH2.
I have added 256 meg sys ram to bring it to 521 DDR PC2100.
I upgraded the CPU from a 1 gig to current CPU 1.4 gig
all since AH2 went live. Screen stutters are less but still very prevailent. Dont ask the basic questions about background programs running...Sound Excelleration, fire walls virus scan, Bus speeds and so on. I have been over this watermelon countless times. (Im not a new gamer).
If my system cannot run AH2 well enough to see the Hits as some of you do. Then i want the hit sprites larger than they are. Because i am representitive of the portion of the community that are playing on the lower end Pc's that are still above HTC sys req. To make the Hit Sprites more visable wouldnt hurt YOU or those like YOU. But they are hurting those of us in this situation.
Originally posted by Wilbus
Oh if I only had somewhere to post all these movies I have of hit sprites... it would prove Ghosth's point.
Do you think i would see on me FE what you see in yours?
Im certian that i couldnt.
Operating System: Windows XP Pro (5.1-,Build 2600)
CPU: AMD Athlon, Xp 1600 running @1.4 GHz
SYS Mem: PC 2100, 512 Meg, DDR
Video: ST Labs ATI Radeon 9000LE, 128 Bit 128 DDR mem, 250MHz Engine Clock, Omegea CAT 4.5 ATI drivers
Direct version, 9.0b 4.09.0000.0902
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Mugzeee I have the same problem. Don't see the hit sprites but once in a great while. Most of the time the only way I know if I scored hits is when parts start falling off, or he explodes. Last night I shot down two Ju-88s, and I only seen one hit sprite even though one exploded, and the other lost a wing and tail.
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Mugz
AMD xp 1800 (1.67ghz)
128 mb 333 ddr ram
Abit Kd7a mboard
ATI Saphire 9000 pro 128 mb video.
On Win98SE
I'm getting a solid 40's - 60's in game no matter what, sliders dead center.
No stutters, no problems, and I can see hit sprites fine at 300 yards.
Thing is they don't last as long.
Fact remains THIS is what we have.
Play it, or not, your choice.
Endless whineing, nitpicking, mudsmearing, and grouching
accomplishes nothing.
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So insanely narrow tunnel vision is somehow more realistic than being able to see hit flashes with a larger (still too small) amount of vision?
You are equating difficulty with realism.
If you LIKE it better, than that's fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. However perhaps you should stop claiming one is somehow more "realistic" than the other when they're BOTH a compromise. If you like added difficulty that's fine. Just present it as such.
Is someone saying you should fly around while zoomed in?
I would naturally assume the zoom in would be used to confirm hits when the target is further out in front of you, running straight and level. Also, it is a toggle funtion - you can flick it on and off quickly for confirmation on hits.
Otherwise if the 'reality' you people seek is something that allows you to receive instant info on a maneuvering target like 600~700 yards away like it used to then there's no way to call that more real than the other.
Your approach has been seen before time and again in flightsims. It's classic for some people who can't cope with certain aspects of the game to come up with an argument that fuzzies and muddles the things on whats more real or not - like the classic example of people arguing no-cockpit view is not more or less "real", than the view with cockpits locked on.
ps) The hit sprites are still visible even without zooming in. The zoom in was a cynical suggestion. Be advised.
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P51 Shooting Down A FW190 (http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/339-01.mpg)
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"Dude" I cant even see hit sprites/explosions at 50 yards on my FE. You think i make this watermelon up?
Are you blind?
Maybe its because i have to keep all Graphic Detail sliders at Far Right (Performance) to keep stutters a little more tolerable? Yes i know how to zoom and yes i use it. and No it isnt helping.
Same here. I use a lo-tech system. I don't see what you're seeing.
If you can't see hit sprites at 50 yards, well then I guess no amount of realism or unrealism would help you - as it is pretty much clear the only thing that'd catch your eye in your attention span is if the hitsprites linger on longer than they should as in AH1.
Answering without the sarcasim. No.
I am asking to be able to see Hits period.
Hits are barely visable at 50 yards on my FE. I can only see them at Point Blank range. Like 30 yards even less.
Okay, without sarcasm here also, the problem you are saying you're having is frankly hard for me to understand. It is true the hitsprites have become smaller, and its resident time shorter on one's FE - but what that has done to me is give me a different type of input than AH1 - I still can see what's going on.
For example, in AH1, if you rake across a target's wing with 5 hits from left to right, you would see large globs of white sprites line up from left to right, and see five hit sprites at the same time. That's because the 1st hit sprite stays resident long enough to be around even when the fifth sprite is created. I guess that'd account for better visibility.
In AH2, I would see 5 individual 'sparks' lighting up one by one from left to right, none of them are up at the same time.
But nevertheless I still can clearly see whether I landed my shots or not upto about 400yards, if the range is further out than that and the taret is maneuvering I could miss the info and not know if I done anything.
If you're game installation isn't porked, or some tech problem literally does not give you any hit sprites at all, then the problem comes down to you, and like Ghost said the only one who can solve this problem is none but you.
I wasnt the one who brought up How Hit Sprite/Explosions are ommited.
Im not actually arguing whats realistic or what isnt. Except to say that some ppl think the current settings are more realistic. I say that from my angle they are just as un-realistic as before, only now they are different. I just want to enjoy playing AH2. Obviously you and some others are seeing things that i cant. Happy hunting.
If my suggestions are implemented, it will make it easier to see hit sprites. HE round impacts will leave a larger explosion, and AP round flashes will be brighter. Let's hope that helps(if, it ever gets implemented).
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Are you blind?
Same here. I use a lo-tech system. I don't see what you're seeing.
If you can't see hit sprites at 50 yards, well then I guess no amount of realism or unrealism would help you - as it is pretty much clear the only thing that'd catch your eye in your attention span is if the hitsprites linger on longer than they should as in AH1.
Okay, without sarcasm here also, the problem you are saying you're having is frankly hard for me to understand. It is true the hitsprites have become smaller, and its resident time shorter on one's FE - but what that has done to me is give me a different type of input than AH1 - I still can see what's going on.
For example, in AH1, if you rake across a target's wing with 5 hits from left to right, you would see large globs of white sprites line up from left to right, and see five hit sprites at the same time. That's because the 1st hit sprite stays resident long enough to be around even when the fifth sprite is created. I guess that'd account for better visibility.
In AH2, I would see 5 individual 'sparks' lighting up one by one from left to right, none of them are up at the same time.
But nevertheless I still can clearly see whether I landed my shots or not upto about 400yards, if the range is further out than that and the taret is maneuvering I could miss the info and not know if I done anything.
If you're game installation isn't porked, or some tech problem literally does not give you any hit sprites at all, then the problem comes down to you, and like Ghost said the only one who can solve this problem is none but you.
If my suggestions are implemented, it will make it easier to see hit sprites. HE round impacts will leave a larger explosion, and AP round flashes will be brighter. Let's hope that helps(if, it ever gets implemented).
Dude...Im so Pissed at you its hard to comment any longer.
Do you intentionally insult ppl? Do you automatically assume that if you don’t personally experience something that it cant be true? I sooo wish you lived a few blocks up the road.
You say you are running a LOW END system. Should i decide that you are lying? Of course not.
Then you could come over and see for yourself. But then again youd prolly deny it anyway. I have very good vision. 20/20 last checked about 8 months ago. I Don’t agree with the current hit sprites. You do. I will end our discussion at that. And wish you well OUT
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Mugz
AMD xp 1800 (1.67ghz)
128 mb 333 ddr ram
Abit Kd7a mboard
ATI Saphire 9000 pro 128 mb video.
On Win98SE
I'm getting a solid 40's - 60's in game no matter what, sliders dead center.
No stutters, no problems, and I can see hit sprites fine at 300 yards.
Thing is they don't last as long.
Fact remains THIS is what we have.
Play it, or not, your choice.
Endless whineing, nitpicking, mudsmearing, and grouching
accomplishes nothing.
Listen and listen GOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If i dont like something and want to see it changed.
I have every right to post it here. You call it a whine?
I could your knee jerk reaction to stop such a change a whine also.
See how it works.
To better understand what i am saying.
I (MugZ) post a thread that poses a question/suggestion/request to see a change of something i dont like or would think is better for "game play". YOU (Ghost)...(Kweezy) and who ever else doesnt agree, come racing across the terrain with swords drawn and screaming the war chant about it...then call me a whiner.
Again. If i dont like something i have the right to post it here.
I wont call you a whiner for taking the oppisite side of the fence. I havent up till now. And i wont in the future. Best Regards. Salute
OUT
BTW the nitpicking, mudsmearing, and grouching started with you and Kweezy.
Ghotsh "You can't tell me seeing hit sprites through the dash is more realistic!
This comment had nothing to do with my original post. I said nothing of the sort. In fact this comment is provoking in nature.
Kweezys comments imply that i am blind or lying.
If you guys dont want personal arguments then dont start them.
Zazen13 and Tilts comments were very respectable and civil.
And neither one of them agree with me on the subject.
:)
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Originally posted by DJ111
P51 Shooting Down A FW190 (http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/339-01.mpg)
Yep...the Hits were VERY visable. It was rather easy to distingush the difference between tracers and Hits. Nice film too :)
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Mugzee it will perhaps sound stupid but well ...
did you try to defragment your disk ?
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Yes straffo i have. But thanks for thinking. :)
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Sorry if it pisses you but that's how it is.
You're saying I'm commenting on reality without anything to back it up, while you yourself has started the whole thread without anything to back your points in the first place, except bunch of generalizations and personal dislikes.
I don't have to 100 years old to comment on this, because its a subject beaten to death in countless other forums. A little study, reading and common sense it what it takes to distinguish reality and unreality.
I'm loathe to do it, but I was personally expecting you to comment exact those points after DJ posted the film. Which, is everything I've addressed in my first post.
1) Note the size of the plane compared to the mounting shown on the upper left corner of the film.
You want a guncam showing a plane that big which you can make out the borderlines of the fuselage band and the outlines of the ETC501 bombrack it is carrying, it is within 200 meters when the footages were taken.
2) How many flashes did you see on that film before the pilot bailed out?
Notice the interval with nothing showing between the flashes.
Those flashes are the API incendiary rounds striking at the target, with the traditional P-51 M2 50cal belt consisting of AP-AP-API-API-tracer.
The incendiary round proved particularly useful in not only starting an onboard fire in the fuel systems, but also a good 'mark' for indicating hits.
In other words, roughly 60% of the rounds hitting the Fw190A is not perceivable in the film. I counted 11 API hits, from which we can deduce the actual count of the hit on the plane - about 35~37 rounds of 50cals connected. (in a loose assumption, that each API flash indicates the previous barrage of 2xAP rounds are connected, and a single tracer round connecting after it)
Compared to that AH is actually very kind, showing a hitsprite for every round fired and hit.
Becareful what you wish for - do you really want it the realistic way, with only the I/API or HE/HEI/HEIT rounds showing brighter flashes and explosions?
Or are you just wishing that AH showed every hit sprite that big?
Heck, why not ask for every round looking like a cannon shell burst?
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Freie Jagd (http://www.xmission.com/~kkant/freie_jagd.avi) Showing 20mm and 30mm strikes, mostly at 50-100 meters range or even closer. Clearly visable at that short range. Note that the film speed is slower then normal and yet the strikes are visable for only a short time.
190 Wings shot off (http://www.xmission.com/~kkant/190-wingsoff2.avi) A binch of 190's getting their wings shot off by 50 cal armed planes. Note how the hit sprites can hardly be seen at all. The only thing that is seen is the actual explosion when the wing is blown off. My opinion is that the wing ammounition is hit and that is what causes the explosion. There are no other highly explosvies objects in the wing of the 190. The film clearly shows explosions and not just a wing that brakes off.
Thanks to Phookat for putting these films on his webspace so I could post them :)
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The Yak-9T has a very effective system for differentiating between the cannon and MG.
If you see a sprite, and the plane continues flying, you hit with the MG.
If you see a sprite and the planes loses a big chunck, then explodes, or flops to the ground, you hit with the Cannon.
-Sik
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LOL Sikboy :) I'm gonna start using the 30 on my 109, see how that works out.