Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FUNKED1 on July 13, 2004, 06:43:29 PM
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Mazda joins the fray. (http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=07383418)
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I would call those sports cars, not muscle cars. In the case of the Mazda Sedan, "sporty" car might be an even better term.
There's a difference. Well at least there's a difference to me. I guess Mazda can call them whatever it wants to though.
J_A_B
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Well that type of car is the closest thing we have today to the traditional muscle car. Basic grocery getter with some minor styling upgrades, a whole bunch of power, and a competent chassis, at a fairly low price.
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Speaking of japanese "Muscle Cars" I have always wondered what Honda could do with 8 cylinders...
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More of a size and image thing to my mind. I'll agree that, on paper, it has the same basic concept as a traditional american muscle car.
At least it's what it claims to be so I respect it for that if nothing else.
J_A_B
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"Speaking of japanese "Muscle Cars" I have always wondered what Honda could do with 8 cylinders..."
Tear itself in half from the torque? :)
In all honesty Honda builds some very fine engines and I've never really understood why they don't put some of their better engines in their cars.
J_A_B
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"Mazda joins the fray...."
My wife said it was a cute car. Real men do not need clarification as to where this places the Mazda. ;)
She also thought the new Pontiac GTO was really cute. That's worse than just "cute."
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Sweet, a Toyota Tercel that goes vroom vroom!
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I bought one. I drove the 6cyl and the 4, and picked the 4. It is quieter, more zipy and gets hella lot better gas mileage. With the shifttable auto, it goes from stop to 75mph in the distance that my big motor f150 could only reach 50(and that is manually shifting the f-150 in a drunken enough condition not to worry about the transmission or the sweeping left turn at the end of the run. And before you say it, it is on a private 2 mile road from my house to the 7-11, so I am only endangering deer and myself by driving it fast and drunk).
At any rate, I give it a 5 for build, I doubt I will get 100,000 from it, but an 8 for fuel mileage and an 8 for pickup, top end and handling. It is also very ergonomic and comfortable; I have put 15,000 miles on it since January.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I have always wondered what Honda could do with 8 cylinders...
http://racing.honda.com/about/engine.aspx 2004 V8
http://www.cartracingupdate.com/Cars/honda.htm 2002 V8
Honda is also well known in F1 http://www.hondaf1.com/home.jsp
So, obviously, Honda can do a lot...
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Exactly bighorn, thats why it shocks me that they still havent had a V8 powered performance car.
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Honda said their market share isn't big enough for V-8 and they rather do hybrid inline 6 to get more power if they ever need to, which is a shame.
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Honda is also addicted to FWD which is awful when you have more than about 200 hp.
In addition they have traditionally played by the "gentleman's agreement" whereby no JDM (japanese domestic market) car will produce more than 276 hp (SAE). They can do that with a 3 liter 6 so they haven't seen a need to build an 8 for a road car yet.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
More of a size and image thing to my mind. I'll agree that, on paper, it has the same basic concept as a traditional american muscle car.
At least it's what it claims to be so I respect it for that if nothing else.
J_A_B
I always thought that original muscle cars were about performance OVER image. GTO was the model - mid-size sedans with minimal "show" and a lot of "go" and a low price. In terms of curb weight and where they fit into the grand scheme of model lineups the "new breed" is very close.
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HELL NO! those are not muscle cars. They do however, are sport cars indeed. A good competitor to Audi RS6 or something like that.
"muscle car" defines an area in time more than a concept. To each his own POV.
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IMnsHO, "Muscle Cars" were made during the 60's and 70's. That era is long gone.
The closest things you find today are perhaps the SVT Cobras and the new GTO.
I'd lump the Corvette and the Viper in there, but they're more 'sports car' than muscle car in my mind.
Hell, there are pickup trucks out there that fit the bill better - Ford's Lightning and the Ram SRT-10. What American wouldnt want a 500HP juggernaut?
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By image I mean the image of a Mazda 4-banger doesn't fit with what my brain thinks of when someone says the phrase "muscle car" (Actually no new cars do). Just a personal opinion of mine and nothing more, and I freely admit that most people these days don't share my tastes in automobiles.
By modern standards it proably could call itself one. But I don't care much for the modern standards.
Well....at least my wife has seen the light. She used to like little "trendy" sardine-can cars like New Beetles and Mini Coopers.....but now she loves her Grand Marquis to death, trendy or not.
If you wonder what I drive, go here:
Roadmonster (http://www.internetautoguide.com/reviews/1995/1995_Buick_Roadmaster.html)
Mine looks identical to the one in the picture except the hubcaps are different (I have aluminum rims).
I view it as utterly superior to any daily-driver currently on the market for less than 40 grand. And yes I have whitewalls.
J_A_B
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<----This is the Best American Muscle Ever....Sports Car yes..But it do have some Muscle as well:D
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
IMnsHO, "Muscle Cars" were made during the 60's and 70's. That era is long gone.
The closest things you find today are perhaps the SVT Cobras and the new GTO.
I'd lump the Corvette and the Viper in there, but they're more 'sports car' than muscle car in my mind.
Hell, there are pickup trucks out there that fit the bill better - Ford's Lightning and the Ram SRT-10. What American wouldnt want a 500HP juggernaut?
I don't know. Some the newer Dodge Hemi powered cars (that station wagon looking thing) look pretty interesting.
I don't see a big resurgance of the old thumpin Hemi Cudas or 454 Chevelles but there are some pretty exciting V8 powered rear drive throw back machines. I would call the Vette a muscle car still, it is a lot sportier than the 60's and 70's models but it still is a thumping V8 powered rear drive machine, the basic need for any true muscle car.
Still, for true tire squealing, non cornering pray you have a few miles to stop nostalgia the 60's and 70's are the only way to go.
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Mmmm Muscle Car
(http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/plymouth-cuda/images/plymouth-cuda-aar-1970c.jpg)
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i had the chance to run a Dodge Viper GTS 1996. It still had the muscle car feeling, like Laz described last week.
Raw power, vibrations filling up your body with excitment, uncomfortable as heck. Like if there's a direct link between your engine and the road.
I was offered a ride in a 2003 porsche GTS ... wohoo man, this thing go. I ride in a 2001 Corvette, fun time there too. But both were not to be compared with the viper, even if the porsche performances are about the same. Accelerates fast, cruises fast, but everything is smoooooooooth, don't have all those vibrations to keep you awake:cool:
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wakle you should play Grand Theft Auto vice City:D
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
IMnsHO, "Muscle Cars" were made during the 60's and 70's. That era is long gone.
The closest things you find today are perhaps the SVT Cobras and the new GTO.
I'd lump the Corvette and the Viper in there, but they're more 'sports car' than muscle car in my mind.
Hell, there are pickup trucks out there that fit the bill better - Ford's Lightning and the Ram SRT-10. What American wouldnt want a 500HP juggernaut?
Every car you mentioned is WAY more expensive (relative to the rest of the market) than the classic muscle cars were back in the day. That was the beauty of those cars, that they weren't much more expensive than your basic family car.
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I think that illustrates the basic prolem with the auto industry, actually.
Once upon a time the average car buyer could afford something NICE
Now the average buyer gets a tin can Honda or Mazda or something uninspired like a Taurus (still little more than a tin can) Yeah some of em have turbos....but then it's just a turbo sardine can.
I have yet to get into a small car that is actually NICE, or that is ANYWHERE near as comfortable as my Buick. I tend to think people who like this junk they're selling nowdays accept it only because they've forgotten/never experienced the good ones.
Heck....I was happy with a Mercury Topaz until I drove something better.
Now? I went to a showroom a couple weeks ago with a buddy who was looking at Accords.....I could not get over what a complete piece of crap they are for 20 grand. Friend ended up getting a Chevy which was really no better.
I dunno what I'll do when the Buick is ready for the junkyard...hopefully that isn't for a long time.
J_A_B
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Well, I like small nimble cars. I want sharp handling and chassis rigidity over a smooth ride. I've sat in a lot of expensive cars at car shows and I'll take the Pepsi challenge with my seats vs. theirs any old day. So I'm loving it. Technically, today's cars are so far beyond the 60's (or even the 80's) that it's not even funny.
But other than the SRT-4, the Big 3 have abandoned the old school muscle car demographic. Kinda sad.
I haven't ridden in a Buick like yours but my friend's dad has a Cadillac that I believe has the same chassis and motor. Sweet car.
I get the Grand Marquis a lot as a rental. Not a bad car at all.
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Technically, today's cars are so far beyond the 60's (or even the 80's) that it's not even funny.
That is true. Even the Hondas that I poke so much fun at last FAR longer with less upkeep than older cars.
And...honestly...I don't hate the little cars as much as I claim. I just wouldn't want one as a daily-driver and--as you pointed out--there aren't a lot of options unfortunately (hence my pointed irritation). Something small and nimble like a Miata can be loads of fun to take a spin from time to time.
Were you comfortable in the Grand MArquis you drove Funked? I didn't get one for myself promarily due to the fact that the driver's seat is just too damned small and pedals are in the wrong place for my feet. It fits the wifey like a glove (a damn big glove).
J_A_B
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I fit pretty good in the Grand Marquis. I think the ones I drove had the power adjustable pedals. I'd rather have buckets than the bench seat though. If Mercury had put a big block or supercharged engine in the Marauder they might have sold me one.
I can't stand the Taurus/Sable. Because of the slope of the windshield I have to recline the seat really far. They drive pretty nice though, especially the ones with the 24V motor.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
IMnsHO, "Muscle Cars" were made during the 60's and 70's. That era is long gone.
The closest things you find today are perhaps the SVT Cobras and the new GTO.
I'd lump the Corvette and the Viper in there, but they're more 'sports car' than muscle car in my mind.
Hell, there are pickup trucks out there that fit the bill better - Ford's Lightning and the Ram SRT-10. What American wouldnt want a 500HP juggernaut?
How is the new GTO going over there ? a success ? or too early to tell ?
We know it here as the Monaro - a 70's muscle car classic name by GM over here
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"the image of a Mazda 4-banger doesn't fit with what my brain thinks of when someone says the phrase "muscle car" (Actually no new cars do)"
Ditto. "Pocket rocket" is the best term I can think of them with.
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well.... the melted look doesn't lend itself to the term "muscle car" in my opinion. Nor do little tiny motors.. the buick grand national set the "muscle car" guys back a bit tho in "the day" They wouldn't even call it a muscle car.
Now.. I know funked... he is a great guy and knows a lot more about the new cars and race cars than I do. He came over and we drove my car. It is probly classic muscle. it is very impractical and is more of a "rush" car than a nimble (i did replace the steering box tho funked) corner carver.
It will go fast and stop fast and go around corners with at least a camaro... I have done it.. but... It is a workout. your ggirlfriend isn't gonna be able to do it and... if you drive modern cars you aren't gonna be able to drive mine well.... the Healey will do it's level best rto kill you while you are trying to look competent.
my cars don't get the job done with sophistication... even tho there are a lot of sophisticated parts hiding in there... they do it by bullying the road into submission but... they are not easy to start or drive or corner in and they don't give you a delicate feel of the road... they get lousy milage and shake your fillings out... they don't have a radio. They have the aerodynamics of a brick but they batter their way through the airstraem.
The new cars are better in every way but the intangible.
funked drove my car maybe he can explain better than I can.
oh... and funky... I bought a Lincoln Town car (oimped out marquis) for getting the grandbabv and girlfriend around in... like driving a lazyboy but it actually stops pretty well with 4 wheel discs.
lazs
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Originally posted by Redd
How is the new GTO going over there ? a success ? or too early to tell ?
We know it here as the Monaro - a 70's muscle car classic name by GM over here
Too early to tell, really. I haven't seen any on the streets yet but that might be because none have arrived in my area. Looking at the stats, the Mustang seems to be the better vehicle. The 2005 Mustang will certainly have better styling.
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I didn't mean to say these were the same as the original muscle cars. Just that they have similar performance and position in the market, and there is a great HP war going on with one manufacturer responding to another. Some of you guys are so busy thinking about "the good old days" that you are missing some pretty good times.
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Mazda is prepping its own entry for the Subie-Mitsu rally wars—a 276-hp, 265-lb-ft Mazda 6 scheduled for a mid-2005 world debut. Spotted during hot-weather tests in the California desert, this sizzling prototype gets a twin-turbocharged and intercooled 2.3-liter four that is mated to a six-speed manual gearbox and sends power via all-wheel drive to 18-inch tires.
Not so much a muscle car as a sports car, to me. A WRC sports car to be precise. Muscle cars are asphalt-only.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
I would call those sports cars, not muscle cars. In the case of the Mazda Sedan, "sporty" car might be an even better term.
There's a difference. Well at least there's a difference to me. I guess Mazda can call them whatever it wants to though.
J_A_B
Yeah, I quite agree: the term "Muscle Car" is way over used these days. When I think of muscle cars I remember the Goats, 'Cudas, Chargers, Challengers, Z-28s, Mustangs, and Malibus, etc...
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Originally posted by Redd
How is the new GTO going over there ? a success ? or too early to tell ?
We know it here as the Monaro - a 70's muscle car classic name by GM over here
Too early to tell. The rags have just started doing reviews on it. I believe it was R&T that gave it a winning verdict over the SVT Cobra.
If the guys on Top Gear loved it, its good enough for me. :aok
PS: Frenchy - Porsche doesnt make a car with a GTS badge. GT3 maybe?
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For some reason I was suddenly reminded of thge late great Johnny Cash
Well, I left Kentucky back in '49
An' went to Detroit workin' on a 'sembly line
The first year they had me puttin' wheels on cadillacs
Every day I'd watch them beauties roll by
And sometimes I'd hang my head and cry
'Cause I always wanted me one that was long and black.
One day I devised myself a plan
That should be the envy of most any man
I'd sneak it out of there in a lunchbox in my hand
Now gettin' caught meant gettin' fired
But I figured I'd have it all by the time I retired
I'd have me a car worth at least a hundred grand.
I'd get it one piece at a time
And it wouldn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is a round.
So the very next day when I punched in
With my big lunchbox and with help from my friends
I left that day with a lunch box full of gears
Now, I never considered myself a thief
GM wouldn't miss just one little piece
Especially if I strung it out over several years.
The first day I got me a fuel pump
And the next day I got me an engine and a trunk
Then I got me a transmission and all of the chrome
The little things I could get in my big lunchbox
Like nuts, an' bolts, and all four shocks
But the big stuff we snuck out in my buddy's mobile home.
Now, up to now my plan went all right
'Til we tried to put it all together one night
And that's when we noticed that something was definitely wrong.
The transmission was a '53
And the motor turned out to be a '73
And when we tried to put in the bolts all the holes were gone.
So we drilled it out so that it would fit
And with a little bit of help with an A-daptor kit
We had that engine runnin' just like a song
Now the headlight' was another sight
We had two on the left and one on the right
But when we pulled out the switch all three of 'em come on.
The back end looked kinda funny too
But we put it together and when we got thru
Well, that's when we noticed that we only had one tail-fin
About that time my wife walked out
And I could see in her eyes that she had her doubts
But she opened the door and said "Honey, take me for a spin."
So we drove up town just to get the tags
And I headed her right on down main drag
I could hear everybody laughin' for blocks around
But up there at the court house they didn't laugh
'Cause to type it up it took the whole staff
And when they got through the title weighed sixty pounds.
I got it one piece at a time
And it didn't cost me a dime
You'll know it's me when I come through your town
I'm gonna ride around in style
I'm gonna drive everybody wild
'Cause I'll have the only one there is around.
Ugh! Yow, RED RYDER
This is the COTTON MOUTH
In the PSYCHO-BILLY CADILLAC Come on
Huh, This is the COTTON MOUTH
And negatory on the cost of this mow-chine there RED RYDER
You might say I went right up to the factory
And picked it up, it's cheaper that way
Ugh!, what model is it?
Well, It's a '49, '50, '51, '52, '53, '54, '55, '56
'57, '58' 59' automobile
It's a '60, '61, '62, '63, '64, '65, '66, '67
'68, '69, '70 automobile.