Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: 68DevilM on July 13, 2004, 10:37:39 PM
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just like to point out he dissapeared and reapeared 3-4 times before i started recording
cheater (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1089776210_film2.ahf)
what youll notice is the only spit bish in the roster to the right put in on external veiw and turn icon on or youll miss him what im told is unplugging his modem, also watch his speed go up to over 1000 and at the same time a funny little noise almost like your gear coming up....
call it what you want to:mad:
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In
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Is it possible to turn icons on in film viewer? Caus without em I dont see spit.
IN
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Well, you did the right thing filming it. The wrong thing posting it on the BB.
email this stuff to HTC.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
Is it possible to turn icons on in film viewer? Caus without em I dont see spit.
IN
take another look
and i am gonna send it, just wanted to i dont know humiliate
some arrsss, did i mention i was in a spit14 and would have really been pissed if he shot me down like that
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OK I see it now, but couldnt a possible reason be lag ? The person in question is in a squad I dont think would "cheat". Or need to...
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I had somebody do that to me in HTH not very long ago. He was in a 109 (-G I presume) and I was in a yak9. I had a slight advantage of alt and speed, but he was still a contender. Well I didn't let him get too far, and he even tried to lure me through hsi base ack several times (about 3k alt or less at the time) and then we crest a hill on one side of his field and I'm in a dead perfect spot, on his six, gaining, and d=600, d=400, ZIIIIIIP he speeds up to warp 10 and rockets out to 3k in literally 2 seconds. I call him out and he makes some lame excuse about a bad modem (my ass). I got it on demo. Didn't realize til AFTER, when watching it, that he warped right back (almost instantly) to behind me, but was too slow to do squat about it. So after that I just landed my kills and left.
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68Devil you ever take a good look at 68racer while he's flying? SHEESH! I don't refer to him as a cheater. Most probably this guy has something running in the background. Downloading mp3's or something.
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How come when I try to play the film, I get an "invalid or old file format" message? Do I need to do something different now that it's AH2?
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Looks like "lag" or bad connect to me, I've had it happen a few times admit it is frustrating.
The Bish pilot in question would be one of the last that would need to revert to "cheating" tho. Just an observation, not my call.
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I'd back off a bunch. That could be anything from a bad connect to a flakey router. Also, if you jump into the guys plane, he is doing evasives whenever the data kicks back in.
I've chased many phantom planes that just disappear. I ask on range channel, something like "what happened to that 51??"
I get an answer back - "I killed him about 1 minute ago."
I had a much better film than that from AH1. But if you looked at the film closely, you could see it only looked weird because packets were lost. All the guy really did was dive to the deck. On my end it looked like hyperspace until you figure the packet loss - then the path made sense.
Hopefully the guy has been arround enough to dismiss the accusation. Thats not a good thing to do, especially if it can be explained in other way - bad connect, swamped router etc.
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INCREDIBLE!
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An OLD AW document from Mage. Some may apply, some may not. I think the general idea is there.
Net lag is the phenomenon of plane position distortion resulting from non-instantaneous communication between all the computers running Air Warrior. Translated into English, Net Lag is the inaccuracies of what you see on the screen vs. what the other guy sees due to communication delays across the Internet.
It is *vital* to understand Net Lag to avoid frustration and to fight effectively in Air Warrior. First I will describe my understanding of how the FE (Front End) to Host communication system works. Once this is done, I will discuss the various situations in Air Warrior, and how Net Lag altars reality.
Air Warrior is a unique game, in that unlike regular games where all the action occurs in one spot (on your computer), Air Warrior occurs on hundreds of computers across the world. Every player has a copy of the Front End, and all communicate with the Host. The Front End consists of the flight simulator and the gunnery system. All flying and shooting (including ground object collision detection, plane flying characteristics and gun-hit determination) occurs on the Front End. Thus, the only computer that determines whether you hit another plane is your own, the only computer that tells what your plane does is your own, and the only computer that determines whether you hit someone/something with guns or ground ordnance is your own. No collision detection or ordnance hit determination for you or anything you drop/fire is done on any other computer including the host.
The host is Grand Central Station for Air Warrior Information Exchange. Front Ends send messages to the Host, and the Host processes these and dispatches messages back to the Front Ends. The information that the Front End sends to the host are system commands (including plane selection, ordnance selection, base selection, and other commands such as "/Fly"), messages to other FE's (messages you type, including voice communication), positional information (what your plane is doing and where it is), and ordnance damage information (what you hit, how many rounds fired). The host receives all this and processes it. It sends out to the Front Ends positional information for other Front End planes, damage reports to the Front Ends (which includes FE's plane damage, other plane damage, and ground target damage information), Messages (those that others type to you as well as system messages, including kill messages), and System Commands (such as "your dead", or other system commands, including ejection and other administration commands).
It is vital to understand how the system works in order to understand net lag. The host has no idea of the terrain (except for damageable object information, and the status of the bases and strat facilities), nor does it do gunnery hit determination or collision detection.
So how does net lag fit into all this? All this message exchange and processing takes time. In order for a gun hit to register on the target's computer, the hit message has to be sent to the Host (anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th of a second), processed by the Host (anywhere from 1/4th to 1/2 a second, depending on how busy it is), then sent to the target's FE (anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th of a second). Thus a hit can take up to 1-2 seconds to register, assuming no other (net) delays in communication. Damage to the target gets bounced back to the shooter from the host (not from the other guy's FE), so that the shooter's FE can shows parts falling off and other effects. Positional Data is done the same way, each FE sends positional data for it's plane approximately two times a second to the host. This information is processed, collated, and sent to all the appropriate FEs. This can take a second or two. Here is where the delay occurs. It is vital to remember that any other plane you see in the air is actually their position 1-2 seconds ago on their FE, not their position on their FE at that instant. Thus their actual position could be 1-2 seconds "further along" in reality, on their FE. In addition, your position on their FE is 1-2 seconds old, thus is 1-2 seconds "further behind" in reality.
Always keep in mind: What you see of the enemy is where he was and what he was doing 1-2 seconds ago (on his FE, he has flown for another 1-2 seconds). What he sees is what you were doing and where you were 1-2 seconds ago (you have flown for another 1-2 seconds, but his FE doesn't have that 1-2 seconds of positional info yet). In addition, any reaction you have to something he is doing gets seen in 2-4 seconds after he did whatever you were reacting to. For example, you see him rolling 180 degrees, so you counter that roll. He sees you counter that move 2-4 seconds *after* he did that move. If that move gave him a shot in less than that time, he may have bullets hitting your plane before his FE sees your countermove (which might be bad for your health) or, you hear a ping. By the time his FE sees your knee-jerk jink, he could have been firing at you for 2-4 seconds.
Now let’s discuss the usual situations that arise, and Net Lag's influence on them:
Headons
Tail-chase, no turns
Turns
Climbs
Dives
Micro Warps and that "convenient" warp just as you begin shooting
Warp on Demand
Headons
Headons are really nasty, because both fighters have a good shot (nether target is dodging), and because both fighters are heading towards each other at a pretty quick pace. If both planes are going 200mph, the closure is 400mph. If both planes are going 400mph, the closure is a whopping 800mph! Thus the planes will go from range of 1000 to a range of 200 very quickly. Let's assume that each plane is going 250mph (probably a good average). This results in a closure of 500mph, or a closure of 250 yards per second. Thus each second, the range counter decreases by about 300 (range will go from 1000 to 200 in about 2 seconds). How does net lag fit into all this?
Due to net lag, you see your target at his position 1-2 seconds ago. Thus at 250mph he is about 120 yards further forward on his FE. On the other hand, he sees your position 1-2 seconds ago, and at 250mph, you are about 120 yards further foreword than he sees you. This works out so that the range each side sees is the same, a rare case in Air Warrior due to Net lag. Unfortunately net lag still has a very nasty effect on headons. Most planes can safely dodge a 500mph closure Head-on at range 200-400, if they pull up at maximum G's. When will you see him pull up if he pulls up on his FE at 300? Remember that the range on both FE's is the same (the net lag effects on perceived position cancel out). It takes 1-2 seconds for his pull-up to be seen on your FE. The distance is being decrease by 300 every second. Thus he will appear to travel in a straight line for 1-2 seconds longer after pulling up on his FE.. But at 300, one two to seconds will result in him appearing to pull up 300-600 further along than he really did. If he pulled up at 300, this will result in him appearing to pull up on your FE from 0 to 300 *behind* you! Thus, he will appear to barrel into you without appearing to attempt a dodge.
Another nasty effect is that best firing distance for Headons is 300-600. At a closure of range 300 per second (250 yards per second, 500mph closure), he will be *past* you when you hear the pings. If you hear the pings earlier, he fired at 600-1000 or more. Keep this in mind next time you head-on someone, and you get nailed after the pass.
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Tail-chase, no turns
A tail chase situation is where one plane is being followed by another. This often occurs when someone is fleeing from a bad situation and an enemy plane decides to follow. Here is where the greatest difference in perceived range occurs.
Since each FE sees the other FE plane's position 1-2 seconds ago both pilots will see the other plane further behind from where he is. Thus, if you are behind someone, he will appear to be further behind than he really is on his FE. He will appear to be closer to you than if your FE had instantaneous position information on his plane. And you will appear further back to him than you would if his FE had instantaneous positional information. How much closer/farther depends on speed. The faster the planes are going the further the planes travel in that 1-2 seconds. A 500mph plane appears to be 250 yards behind where he really is to the other guy. A 100mph plane, on the other hand, appears to be 50 yards behind where he really is to the other guy. If you are being chased by another plane, that plane's real position is 1-2 seconds further forward than he appears.
How does this all work out? Say someone is chasing you, and he is 700 behind you (from your perspective). Say you both are going 500mph (you both just finished a long dive). Assume net lag is 1 second in this case. His position, on his FE, is 1 second further forward than you see him. At 500mph, you travel 250 yards in one second, thus he is really at 400 on his FE. Now he sees you at your position 1 second ago, thus he sees you 250 yards behind where you really are. He sees you at 100, and if he has his guns on you, you are going to die a horrible death, wondering how the heck he made that shot from "out of range" (when in fact on his FE it was an easy range 1 shot).
This disparity in distance increases with speed. Thus the faster you both are going the further the disparity. At 500mph, 1 second delay, if you are chasing someone he sees you at 500-600 further back than you see him. On the other hand, if you both are going 100mph, a 1 second delay results in him only seeing you 100 behind where you see him.
This gets nasty when you accelerate. Assuming you both accelerate at the same rate (and thus your "real" range doesn't change), the disparity in range increases. Thus the guy who is behind will appear to close with the guy in front from his FE, while the guy in front will see the guy behind appear to fall away. Just the opposite occurs when both slow down. The guy in behind will appear to see the guy in front pull away, while the guy in front will see the guy behind close the distance.
Turns
Turns are nasty as well. Due to net lag, you see the other guy where he was 1-2 seconds ago. Now if he is on your 6, you see him 1-2 seconds earlier in the turn. Thus he might not appear have his guns on you at all from your FE, yet from his FE, he has already pulled lead and is ready to shoot. In real life, you are safe in a turn fight as long as the barrels of the enemy are pointed right at you (and he thus isn't pulling lead). In Air Warrior, you are most likely taking fire if you see the barrels pointed at you, and are in danger of being shot if his nose is within 20-30 degrees of being pointed at you, depending on net lag times. Since you see his position 1-2 seconds ago, and he sees your countermove 1-2 seconds ago, any last-second jink to avoid fire from your FE will be seen 2-4 seconds later on his FE from when he does whatever caused you to jink. That might give him enough time to put enough lead in you to make you blow up. Always start jinks 2-4 seconds before it appears you need to.
Climbs
There are two types of climbs, zoom climbs and sustained climbs. Sustained climbs work just like a tail-chase situation, the faster you are going the more closer the other guy is on his FE when you are above, and the farther he is on his FE when you are below.
Zoom climbs are another matter. Since you both are losing speed rapidly, the disparity of perceived range between the two planes diminishes. Thus the guy below sees the guy above appear to pull away (assuming both are decelerating at the same rate), and the guy above sees the guy below appear to get closer. This works to the detriment of the guy below because he will probably be denied a shot he would have had had he instantaneous updates on the other guy's position. When the above guy starts coming back then the situation turns into a regular Head-on situation.
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Dives
Dives are really, really deceptive. Basically, the guy in front will always have an advantage.
When two planes dive, both planes rapidly accelerate. This results in the guy above appearing to gain on the guy below (from his FE), and vice versa. The reason this is nasty is that when a slower diving plane chases a faster one down, he appears to be keeping up when he's actually losing the dive drag race. On the other hand, the guy below sees the guy above appear to pull away, thus gains confidence that he's succeeding when he's diving. Many people are suckered this way into following a guy down even though they don't have a chance of catching their target.
When both bogies level out, speed begins to drop. What this does is cause the guy in front to appear to pull away to the guy behind, and vice versa. If two identical planes perform identical dives, one two seconds behind the other, the guy behind will probably not ever get a decent shot. Very few people can hit a diving plane at ranges greater than two (due to speed-induced nose-up tendencies), thus one usually has to wait until the bottom of the dive to get the shot. But then, just as you line up your shot from 300, the same-type bogie starts to pull away (from your FE's perspective, due to the slowing down). On the other hand, the guy in front sees the guy behind gain a bit on him, another illusion. Usually this results in a jink, assuming he can see the guy behind him, further making life difficult for the guy behind.
This net lag is why the Dora is such a great escape artist. The Dora isn't significantly faster than several other planes in a dive, in fact if a P51, F4U or Ki84 has extra energy over the Dora before going into the dive, the P51/F4U/Ki84 will actually gain ground on the Dora before the level speed superiority kicks in. Unfortunately, when the Dora and the plane following level out, the rapid slowdown causes the Dora pilot to appear to pull away from the Ki84/P51/F4U pilot's FE, denying him a decent close-range shot. This will happen even if the follower was on the Dora's 6 at 200-300 when starting the dive. By the time the speeds stop slowing down (and the slow-down induced "pull away" stops), the Dora is going faster than the follower, and pulls away by sheer speed advantage. Thus even if the follower is 200-300 behind when the maneuver starts, he quickly sees the range go to 400-600, then never get closer, even though he might initially have more energy and in "reality" gains ground.
Micro Warps and that "convenient" warp he does just as you begin shooting
To understand why this occurs, and why the target isn't "causing" the warp intentionally, one must understand how planes are shown on your FE. Your FE receives updates on planes nearby (20K or less, roughly) once every 1/2 second (or longer, depending on a number of factors, including numbers of bogies in the area). The FE simply can't place the plane in one position, then move it when it gets another update, since this would cause a jump, or mini-warp. Thus what it does is receives the position of the plane, it's velocity vector (speed and direction), it's rotational speed (how fast the plane itself is rotating, and which direction), and the plane's acceleration vector (which direction and how fast the plane is accelerating). This information is used to predict the plane's position during the times in between updates, and when a new update is received, the plane is simply moved to the new location and this all repeats. This allows a smoothly maneuvering plane to be displayed on another person's FE almost seamlessly, as you can see when a plane does a normal turn, since the plane appears to fly a rough circle instead of bounce around.
Unfortunately, this system cannot predict a sudden maneuver that is radically different from what was happening during the last update. Thus if someone suddenly rolls, or reverses a fast roll (with a fast-rolling plane), or suddenly pulls back on the stick (or pushed forwards), then the FE might not see this for up to 1/2 second, and when the update *does* arrive, the plane may appear to "jump" 20-30 yards. This is more than enough to ruin a good gun pass.
Now this almost always occurs when an enemy either spots you closing for a guns pass, or when he gets hit. Say you ping him, as you close on his 6. 1-2 seconds later, he hears that ping and yanks the stick left and back. 1-2 seconds later, you see this move. During this 2-4 seconds, you were adjusting your aim, and squeeze off a burst. Suddenly your FE gets the update, and moves the target 30ft to the left just as the shells are about to hit. Your shot misses, conveniently for the target (though *not* intentionally convenient). A variant on this is you are closing to the kill, he sees you at 900 behind him (700 to you), he rolls suddenly (or does something else radical), then 1-2 seconds later, at 300 out, you are lined up perfectly, about to fire, then "boom" your FE gets an update, and moves his plane 30-40 feet, blowing your high-speed guns pass. Again, not intentional by the target, but an artifact of net lag, the 1-2 updates per second, and the smoothing code between these updates.
Warp on Demand
This is also yet another difficult stunt. Warp On Demand is only useful if you can "disappear" for a few seconds, then reappear in a more advantageous position (including escapes). Unfortunately, if the host is not receiving updates on your position from you (necessary in order to cause your image to warp on someone's FE), you are not receiving your target's position either (thus have no idea where he will be when you appear again, he might appear on your 6).
Now things get even more complicated. If your connect goes to pot, you cannot predict what your plane was doing last on his FE. Your plane could be flying in a straight line, making a very easy target, for all you know. It may have been slowing down, making for a nice low-speed-target gun pass. You can never be certain, and the average is split down the middle (a warp will either hinder the other guy, or help him kill you). Plus there is the risk of never reconnecting at all (giving him the kill anyway if you were pinged at least once before warping). Basically, the risks of Warp On Demand are great, while the benefits are not guaranteed. Thus there is little to no incentive for Warp On Demand, and trust me, without any benefit, most people won't do it (except for the occasional thrill). Thus most apparent lucky warps are almost always due to factors other than an intentionally-induced warp.
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Originally posted by MetaTron
68Devil you ever take a good look at 68racer while he's flying? SHEESH! I don't refer to him as a cheater. Most probably this guy has something running in the background. Downloading mp3's or something.
Gotta back Meta up on that. 68racer was all over the place tonight when you got in close. And it's not the 1st or 2nd time. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, but you 68th boys should mention it to him. Looks exactly like what DevilM just described and the 68th Lightning Lancers are getting a reputation for... well... not playing fair.
Oh yeah...IN. Never use the "C" word on the BBS.
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Kobek is a class guy, and im confident he wouldnt cheat,
looks like connection issue to me
But i suppose you know better,since you decided to post this crap
:rolleyes:
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No good can come from usINg the C word.
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lol. The old "he was unplugging his modem trick."
Are people who buy into that "cheat" being real as thick as they appear?
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like i said, it was descirbed to me that the reason he was dissapearing was cheating, but this guy was not lagging i know lag,,,he would disapear for a good 30-40 seconds and then reapear somewhere else, theres something fisshy, wish id started recording earlyer and you all could see with out a doubt it wasnt lag
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Surely if you unplug your cable then you will disco? Yes? No?
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Filming was the right thing.
Posting it here and starting this thread was the wrong thing.
Send it to HTC...let them review it and take necessary actions. Nothing good can come of making a post like this. It has been said time and time again.
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Sling you just took the words outta my mouth.
DmdMax
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If the plane is going from visible to invisible and back, it is not a cheat. A month or so ago I filmed such and instance, sent it to HT and they had an answer for me that basically came down to a packet problem.
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yea send it to ah so we will know that there is nothing wrong with the game :P I do believe in innocent until proven guilty though so i guess bashing someone is not a good idea,,,send it in was the right call.