Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hades55 on July 15, 2004, 10:58:01 PM
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Ok, Bubi has the bigger score but he was the cold and carefull killer, boring with AH standards.
But there was another guy witch even with AH standards would be a first class stick. 222 total kills, but with another view of how
a killing machine must be ;)
He is still alive :)
<>
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/pilots_day/E_Rudorffer.html
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"Erich Rudorffer survived the war and continued his aviation career as a member of the West German aviation agency. He is now a retired commercial pilot living in Germany. He does not discuss his Luftwaffe career."
Pity. He should write a book.
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Perfect example of how great skill impresses so much that the fact he was a Nazi no longers matters. Hell with him. German aces beat up on inferior planes and pilots for many years..there is no doubt alot of them (germans) had great skills and experience..however the allies quickly caught up to them and turned out to be more than a match.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
Perfect example of how great skill impresses so much that the fact he was a Nazi no longers matters. Hell with him.
Not all member of Germany during that time period were adherents and loyal followers of the nazi party. This debate has been worn out on these boards in the past. Back it up with links and I will change my mind, till then blanket statement and misguided judgements are not needed here.
Originally posted by jaxxo German aces beat up on inferior planes and pilots for many years..there is no doubt alot of them (germans) had great skills and experience..however the allies quickly caught up to them and turned out to be more than a match.
Simple, war of attrition. By the time we (America) got into the war, the allies had taken a heavy toll on Germany and many of the experienced pilots had been killed or taken prisoner. Germany's advancement in aircraft design is most certainly something to be admired despite the fact Hitler was an insane genocidal maniac.
German pilots gained experience the hard way, they were not born with it. You might want to brush up on your history a bit, it seems you lack knowledge.
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Never listen to ANYONE who punts dead & gone 2 year old threads just to see what will happen.
Wormtongue I call thee Jaxxo!
Be gone!
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As a matter of fact Wehrmacht officers by tradition were not allowed to be a part of any political party.
Rudorffer was posted to JG 2 on 1 November 1939. Feldwebel Rudorffer was assigned to 2./JG 2. He recorded his first victory, a French Curtiss Hawk 75 fighter, on 14 May 1940. He went on to score eight additional victories during the Battle of France. By 1 May 1941, Leutnant Rudorffer had achieved 19 victories, which led to the award of the Ritterkreuz. During the British “Non-Stop Offensive” of 1941, Rudorffer recorded 21 victories, including his 40th on 8 December. Rudorffer was particularly successful over the Allied landings at Dieppe on 19 August 1942 when he shot down two Spitfire fighters, his 44th and 45th victory. On 11 November, Rudorffer was appointed Staffelkapitän of 6./JG 2. He led the unit when II./JG 2 was transferred to Tunisia. He shot down eight British aircraft in 32 minutes on 9 February 1943 to record his 54th through 61st victories, and seven more in 20 minutes six days later (63-69). Following the hospitalisation of Hauptmann Adolf Dickfeld (136 victories, RK-EL) with injuries received in a landing accident, Oberleutnant Rudorffer assumed temporary command of II./JG 2.
After scoring a total of 27 victories in Tunisia, Rudorffer returned to the Channel Front in April 1943. In May 1943, Hauptmann Rudorffer was appointed Gruppenkommandeur of II./JG 2. He recorded two further victories, his 73rd and 74th, before parting company with JG 2...
...Rudorffer was transferred to the Eastern Front to assume command of II./JG 54 after its Kommandeur, Hauptmann Heinrich Jung (68 victories, RK) failed to return from a mission on 30 July 1943. Once on the Eastern Front, Rudorffer's really successful days again. On 24 August 1943, he shot down five Russian aircraft on the first mission of the day and followed that up with three more victories on a second mission. On 14 September he claimed five victories (91–95). He scored seven victories in seven minutes on 11 October, including his 100th, but his finest achievement occurred on 6 November when in the course of 17 minutes, 13 Russian aircraft fell to his guns! Only another Grünherzflieger, Emil “Bully” Lang (173 victories, RK-EL, killed in action 3 September 1944) and Hans-Joachim Marseille (158 victories, RK-Br, killed in action 30 September 1942) were to rival Rudorffer's feat. On 7 April 1944, Rudorffer shot down six enemy aircraft 129–134). Major Rudorffer was awarded the Eichenlaub (Nr 447) on 11 April 1944 for 134 victories. Following a spell of leave, Rudorffer returned to combat duty to claim five victories on 3 July, six on 26 July, including his 150th victory, five on 25 August (168-172), six on 25 September (182-187), seven on 10 October (188-194) and 11 on 28 October. For his exploits, he received the Schwertern (Nr 126) for his 212th victory on 26 January 1945. On 15 January 1945, Major Rudorffer was placed in command of the Me262 jet fighter equipped I./JG 7. He became one of the first jet fighter aces in the world by scoring 12 victories, including 10 four-engined bombers.
He shot down over 40 spitfires... Of hos 224 kills 138 were on the eatern front. But even so he didnt arrive there until '43 and by the the VVS-RKKA certainly werent flying "inferior planes".
In '45 he shoot down 10 B17s. Even though while flying the 262 the western allies had control of the air for the most part. He scored a kill vrs a tempest, p51s, p38s etc...
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The Luftwaffe stood for the nazi's
they never showed any mercy in their bombing sorties on civilians etc.
they invented it in spain already
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There were under 1500 casulites in Guernica, a raid that Franco asked the LW to do.
Compare that with Hamburg or Dresden or even Tokyo...
The allied airforces killed many more civilians then the LW.
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Rudendorff is a great candidate for the best fighter pilot ever.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
Perfect example of how great skill impresses so much that the fact he was a Nazi no longers matters. Hell with him. German aces beat up on inferior planes and pilots for many years..there is no doubt alot of them (germans) had great skills and experience..however the allies quickly caught up to them and turned out to be more than a match.
ignoranus simplex :aok
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Never listen to ANYONE who punts dead & gone 2 year old threads just to see what will happen.
Wormtongue I call thee Jaxxo!
Be gone!
I need to start paying attention...this is the second old thread he has brought up. Apparently he is deep sea fishing, and I got caught...DOH!
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I don't believe the allied shot refugees on the roads.
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Sure they did, p51s straffed the columns of civilians as they left Dresden.
In THE BOMBER COMMAND WAR DIARIES the basic facts of the February 13-14
Dresden raids were recounted:
"796 Lancasters and 9 Mosquitoes were dispatched in two separate raids and
dropped 1,478 tons of high explosives and 1,182 tons of incendiary bombs . . .
311 American B-17s dropped 771 tons of bombs on Dresden the next day, with
the railway yards as their aiming point. Part of the American Mustang (P-51)
fighter escort was ordered to strafe traffic on the roads around Dresden to
increase the chaos. The Americans bombed Dresden again on the 15th and on March 2 but it was generally accepted that it was the RAF night raid which caused the most serious damage."
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Originally posted by Goth
Not all member of Germany during that time period were adherents and loyal followers of the nazi party. This debate has been worn out on these boards in the past. Back it up with links and I will change my mind, till then blanket statement and misguided judgements are not needed here.
Simple, war of attrition. By the time we (America) got into the war, the allies had taken a heavy toll on Germany and many of the experienced pilots had been killed or taken prisoner. Germany's advancement in aircraft design is most certainly something to be admired despite the fact Hitler was an insane genocidal maniac.
German pilots gained experience the hard way, they were not born with it. You might want to brush up on your history a bit, it seems you lack knowledge.
Say what? We got into the war pretty early, American pilots were the cause of the attrition of the Luftwaffe. At the time of Pearl Harbor, The Luftwaffe was at the top of it's strength.
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Originally posted by kj714
Say what? We got into the war pretty early, American pilots were the cause of the attrition of the Luftwaffe. At the time of Pearl Harbor, The Luftwaffe was at the top of it's strength.
According to what I read, which I haven't done in a long time, the Battle of Britain and the eastern front pretty much decimated the number of experienced pilots. Yeah, the Americans still flew against a few of the elite in Africa, but by the end of Africa and shortly into the Italian war, Germany had pretty much lost all hope of winning.
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Bug. 2 different "armies". Luftwaffe ran the prison camps only. Gestapo did the killing.
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i wonder how many times he bailed out
alot of those aces hit the silk many of time
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Erich Rudorffer scored a total of 224 victories, placing him 7th on the all time list. He flew over 1,000 missions, entered combat on 302 occasions, was shot down 16 times, and baled out 9 times!
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Originally posted by Goth
According to what I read, which I haven't done in a long time, the Battle of Britain and the eastern front pretty much decimated the number of experienced pilots. Yeah, the Americans still flew against a few of the elite in Africa, but by the end of Africa and shortly into the Italian war, Germany had pretty much lost all hope of winning.
I answered off the cuff, and stand corrected. The Eastern Front did account for much of the attrition of the Luftwaffe. The Allies contributed for the most part by bombing fuel and production factories to smithereens reducing training and flight capabilities and also most German recruits were thrown into the ground war, reducing the number of candidates for flight school.
However, the Luftwaffe by most accounts held on pretty well until 1943 or so, and then fell off a cliff.
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Originally posted by Goth
According to what I read, which I haven't done in a long time, the Battle of Britain and the eastern front pretty much decimated the number of experienced pilots. Yeah, the Americans still flew against a few of the elite in Africa, but by the end of Africa and shortly into the Italian war, Germany had pretty much lost all hope of winning.
Heh heh. Look up when Hartman started flying.
- oldman
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no hes not...
not even top 10
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
Bug. 2 different "armies". Luftwaffe ran the prison camps only. Gestapo did the killing.
The Gestapo didn't use Ju-87s to bomb Polish refugees during the invasion of Poland in '39, nor did the Gestapo bomb Warsaw, Amsterdam, Coventry, etc...
However you want to white wash it by saying they were only following orders or that they didn't belong to the Nazi party, the Luftwaffe still fought for the ideals of Hitler and the Nazi party. You kid yourself if you think otherwise.
ack-ack
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Right AKAK, just like all our troops in Iraq are firm Bush supporters and wholey back his ideals (except the one guy who fled to Lebenon). DOH!!!!
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However you want to white wash it by saying they were only following orders or that they didn't belong to the Nazi party, the Luftwaffe still fought for the ideals of Hitler and the Nazi party. You kid yourself if you think otherwise.
So if Kerry gets elected in US, all the US military personnel is fighting for his cause, and his personal political vision.. and therefore are all Democrats?
Or if Bush gets elected they all suddenly turn into Republicans?
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Always thought that for such things O'Club was created.
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European cities were made mostly of brick and stone.
Japanese cities did have wooden houses.
USAAF firebombed.
Fire + wood = more fire.
Cities is where people and businesses live and are located.
As for the Luftwaffe being evil and doing this and that. did every pilot strafe civilians? I'm sure Ju-52 pilots didn't.
Read JG26: Top Guns of the Luftwaffe.
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Now here's a thread concept that hasn't been done to death by both Luftie-apologist fanatics and rabid Nazi witch hunters alike in the AH community. :lol
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Come to think of it... according to that logic... if I vouch for German WW2 soldiers..
... who are supposed to be no different from Nazis, in that they volunteered/were drafted into military service for their country which was going to war...
.... which happened to have a terrible Nazi dictator at its top...
.. then by defending their position on this matter I'd qualify as either a "Nazi" or a "Nazi enthusiast" group..!
And I'm not a Aryan too!!
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So some of you think the Luftwaffe wasn't effective anymore by late 1943? Tell the bomber crews that! Far fom being useless, it was so effective that the daylight bombing campaign actually had to be halted for a time due to the grevious losses the "no longer effective" Luftwaffe was inflicting.
And some of you seem to think the American kids just out of flightschool in 1944 were somehow more experienced? You don't get combat experience in a flight school. American pilots were certainly better trained for landing and formation flying, but in actual combat a green pilot is still every bit as green. There is nothing to replace the "baptism by fire".
The really pivotal battles happened in spring/early summer 1944. This is when the long-range escorts suddenly and unexpectedly (to the Germans) appeared. The result was the inexperienced pilots in the P-38's, P-47's and P-51's slaughtered the inexperienced pilots in 109G-6's and 190A-8's. The bulk of the Luftwaffe fighter strength was geared towards killing bombers; their equipment didn't have the performance to meet the Allies on a level playing field. They were avoiding Allied fighters when possible for more than a year when suddenly that wasn't an option anymore--and it hurt them bad.
By the latter half of 1944 the Germans finally responded to the threat with a new generation of fighters---the 109G-10 and K, and the 190D-9. THIS is when the now experienced Allied pilots began to slaughter the new generation of German fliers. The Allies never gave them a chance and made destruction of the Luftwaffe a priority. With Allied fighters able to range all over Germany and strike "targets of opportunity" on their return flights, the Germans had nowhere to hide, nowhere to train, nowhere to operate in safety. Even then they somehow managed to remain a credible (if diminished) threat until after the Battle of the Bulge.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Wotan
There were under 1500 casulites in Guernica, a raid that Franco asked the LW to do.
Compare that with Hamburg or Dresden or even Tokyo...
The allied airforces killed many more civilians then the LW.
Very true and the night bombing raids by the Brits were anything but accurate.