Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nilsen on July 16, 2004, 02:39:36 PM
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Exciting and abit scary
http://www.minjok.com/english/index.php3?catagory=engl&code=24649
"Sailing Toward a Storm in China
U.S. maneuvers could spark a war.
By Chalmers Johnson
Chalmers Johnson's latest book is "The Sorrows of Empire: Militarism, Secrecy, and the End of the Republic" (Metropolitan, 2004).
Quietly and with minimal coverage in the U.S. press, the Navy announced that from mid-July through August it would hold exercises dubbed Operation Summer Pulse '04 in waters off the China coast near Taiwan.
This will be the first time in U.S. naval history that seven of our 12 carrier strike groups deploy in one place at the same time. It will look like the peacetime equivalent of the Normandy landings and may well end in a disaster.
At a minimum, a single carrier strike group includes the aircraft carrier itself (usually with nine or 10 squadrons and a total of about 85 aircraft), a guided missile cruiser, two guided missile destroyers, an attack submarine and a combination ammunition, oiler and supply ship.
Normally, the United States uses only one or at the most two carrier strike groups to show the flag in a trouble spot. In a combat situation it might deploy three or four, as it did for both wars with Iraq. Seven in one place is unheard of..........."
rest on the link above.
And from Reuters http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=5685348
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wow....this guy calls the pentagon a bunch of neocons and then there's this:
"but the focus on China in a U.S. election year sounds like a last hurrah of the neocons. "
""defending Taiwan" is just a convenient cover story. "
cant this guy make a point without sounding like a libral dolt?
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sounds stupid to me...
7 of 12 carriers in same place.. at same time.... Could be Pearl Harbour II (but this time with the CV's in the firing line)
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Originally posted by Furball
sounds stupid to me...
7 of 12 carriers in same place.. at same time.... Could be Pearl Harbour II (but this time with the CV's in the firing line)
totally agree with you but did you read how the guy had to write the article to get his point accross?
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I think the ships will be on full alert and missiles ready.....just incase.
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not gonna do nothing if china decides to "nuclear test" the area of sea they happen to be sailing in...
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Originally posted by Furball
not gonna do nothing if china decides to "nuclear test" the area of sea they happen to be sailing in...
I'm certain we have more nukes capable of hitting Beijing than Beijing does hitting Washington. I'm also certain that Beijing knows this and will avoid doing any nuclear testing while we are visiting.
Nothing to see here folks, move along. :)
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This sounds bad.
But thanbkfully we have a clear alternative - everyone Knows where Kerry stands when it comes to allowing asian communist agression. We will all be safe if you vote Kerry in november...
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did they say WHY they are doin that kind of exercise?
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Originally posted by SLO
did they say WHY they are doin that kind of exercise?
Because Rumsfeld and Cheney are EVIL!!!! ;)
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China said they they will take back Taiwan at all costs very recently. So I think this is a gesture of, "yeah right" to them.
Move along, nothing to see here, cough ***.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'm certain we have more nukes capable of hitting Beijing than Beijing does hitting Washington.
only takes 1.
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Makes ya wonder if perhaps Taiwan isn't about to delcare their independence.
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Originally posted by Furball
only takes 1.
May take a lot more than one to penetrate our space based laser defense system. ;)
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Do they have any Nukes capable of hitting Washington? Last I heard their best hopes were California.
Then again, lets just go the route of not having to find out.
-SW
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Look at the other articles on the site. Heavily biased. A "slanted" view lols.
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To be honest, I thought that was an excerpt from his latest book mentioned just before the "article".
-SW
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The Chinese are going to wait till we are so dependent on them for trade (is there anything sold in this country for less that $20.00 not made there?) that when they move on Taiwan we will be hostage to our need for their goods and not intervene. It's warfare in the 21 Century and they know how to fight it. We don't.....
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I read a pretty good book about something like this. It was called Invasion.
China had become so powerfull economically that it did not need anyone else and no one could stop it from expanding.
First they took on Korea....invasion took a week and now they had ship yards currently building super oil tankers wich they converted to Super CVs
they eventually took on eurpoe and won and then turned there sights on the US w/ cuba being the launching point. Really good book though but I cant remember who wrote it.
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****more wood for the fire******
US Shrugs China Warning -
Will Sell Taiwan More Weapons
AFP
7-16-4
The United States said it would continue selling weapons to Taiwan, shrugging off a warning from Beijing that any improvement in US-China relations hinged on America cutting military links with the island.
China warned Tuesday that Beijing was "gravely concerned" over recent US moves on the Taiwan question, pointing out that the situation was "quite critical," particularly over arms sales.
"Well, I don't know why one needs to talk about recent US moves," US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said when asked to comment on the statement.
Boucher said there had been no change in US policy regarding China and Taiwan and vowed defence sales to Taipei would continue as enshrined in US law.
"We continue the sale of appropriate defensive military equipment to Taiwan in accordance with the Taiwan Relations Act," he said.
Senior Bush administration officials were quoted by the Washington Times Wednesday as saying a key reason for US military sales to Taiwan was China's missile buildup opposite the island.
That message was delivered to Chinese President Hu Jintao in Beijing last week by National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, in response to Chinese complaints about Taiwan, according to the officials, the newspaper reported.
Some 500 short-range ballistic missiles in China are currently aimed at Taiwan and US experts say they could destroy key Taiwanese targets with minimal advanced warning.
Rice reportedly told Chinese leaders that a weapons deal with Taiwan had been under way since April 2001 and was reaching the point of actual transfers.
Pending sales are expected to include Patriot anti-missile systems and P-3 anti-submarine aircraft. Taiwan also is negotiating to buy up to eight diesel electric submarines and several guided missile destroyers.
Taiwan's cabinet on June 2 approved a special budget of 610 billion Taiwan dollars (18.2 billion US dollars) for the purchase of advanced weaponry. A team from Taipei was reportedly in the United States recently to shop for arms.
The United States remains the leading arms supplier to Taiwan despite its shift of diplomatic recognition from Taipei to Beijing in 1979.
Under a 25-year-old US law called the Taiwan Relations Act, the United States acknowledges Beijing's position that Taiwan is part of China but is bound by law to provide weapons to help Taiwan defend itself if its security is threatened.
China has repeatedly threatened to invade Taiwan should the island declare formal independence. The two sides split in 1949 at the end of a civil war but Beijing regards the island as part of its territory.
Cross-strait tension has been escalating since pro-independence Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian took office in 2000, and since his re-election in March this year.
Boucher said the United States was committed to its one-China policy based on three joint communiques signed by the two countries and the Taiwan Relations Act.
"We've opposed unilateral moves by either side that would change the status quo," he said.
"For Beijing, this means no use of force or other forms of coercion against Taiwan. For Taipei, it means exercising prudence in managing all aspects of cross-Straits relations," he explained.
Boucher reiterated US policy not to support Taiwan's independence.
"For both sides, it means no statements or actions that would unilaterally alter Taiwan's status," he said.
Copyright © 2004AFP. All rights reserved. All information displayed in this section (dispatches, photographs, logos) are protected by intellectual property rights owned by Agence France-Presse. As a consequence you may not copy, reproduce, modify, transmit, publish, display or in any way commercially exploit any of the contents of this section without the prior written consent of Agence France-Presses.
sorce -
http://rense.com/general54/sendmire.htm
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I read a pretty good book about something like this. It was called Invasion.
China had become so powerfull economically that it did not need anyone else and no one could stop it from expanding.
First they took on Korea....invasion took a week and now they had ship yards currently building super oil tankers wich they converted to Super CVs
they eventually took on eurpoe and won and then turned there sights on the US w/ cuba being the launching point. Really good book though but I cant remember who wrote it.
Damn, did they make everyone wear those funny hats? ;)
(http://www.inettek.com/stuff/hat.jpg)
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Originally posted by AKIron
Damn, did they make everyone wear those funny hats? ;)
(http://www.inettek.com/stuff/hat.jpg)
No they invaded the US on the CA coast and in the gulf. Their armys made it all the way to north carolina until they were finally beat. The US manufactured arsonal ships in record time to kill the chinese fleets. Pretty good book though wish I could remember who wrote it.
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When ya think of it please share, sounds like I'd enjoy it.
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Poke the big dog with a stick... how smart.
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Of course we don't even know if this story is true. Anyone have an alternate source?
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Well, I found this:
http://www.cffc.navy.mil/dodrelease.htm
BUT, in my skimming I didn't find their ultimate destination.
-SW
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BTW I've found nothing to back up the author's claim that 7 CVN task forces will be operating between China and Taiwan. As near as I can tell, Summer Pulse is just working on the capability to sortie almost all of our carriers at once. They are not all operating in the same area. This whole thing is just more lefty AFDB paranoia, just like the selective service hysteria. That website is almost certainly a communist front.
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Invasion (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0515128422/qid=1090018728/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-5336873-6329763?v=glance&s=books)
By Eric L. Harry
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
BTW I've found nothing to back up the author's claim that 7 CVN task forces will be operating between China and Taiwan. As near as I can tell, Summer Pulse is just working on the capability to sortie 6 task forces at once, not all in the same place. This whole thing is just more lefty AFDB paranoia. That website is almost certainly a communist front.
But Reuters isnt communits is it?
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
Well, I found this:
http://www.cffc.navy.mil/dodrelease.htm
BUT, in my skimming I didn't find their ultimate destination.
-SW
Thanks SW, after reading that I get the impression that they won't all be deploying to a single theatre.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
But Reuters isnt communits is it?
The Reuters link explains that while the US is conducting war games at the NDU (on paper), and doing carrier exercises which doesn't appear to be particularly close to China or Taiwan, the Chinese are conducting actual amphibious landings only about 150 miles from Taiwan, while issuing threatening articles via their state-run media (see following post). But somehow fools can look at this info and translate it into "Teh USA is threatening teh China!!!!"
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Originally posted by Saintaw
Poke the big dog with a stick... how smart.
Yep, not very smart of the Chinese. (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2004-07/13/content_347693.htm)
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No they invaded the US on the CA coast and in the gulf. Their armys made it all the way to north carolina until they were finally beat.
They must have avoided Texas at all costs.:D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
BTW I've found nothing to back up the author's claim that 7 CVN task forces will be operating between China and Taiwan. As near as I can tell, Summer Pulse is just working on the capability to sortie almost all of our carriers at once. They are not all operating in the same area. This whole thing is just more lefty AFDB paranoia, just like the selective service hysteria. That website is almost certainly a communist front.
There will not be 7 CV's operating between China and Taiwan. The Johnson piece is full of crap. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about.:)
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Well, the 7 cvn task force idea has been reported a decent number of times here in s/ca. today.Personally I believe it to be a great idea to show we can control that large a force that far from home.[ ah please God help us control it lol.] I do understand the thinking that it could be another Pearl Harbor, but I dont yet for 2 reasons.
The biggest 1 is China is not ready, but has been testing our resolve about Taiwan.China is very differant then others because what we may want done in ten years China could wait 200 years for.No China isnt ready yet but when she is nothing will stop her from attacking the U.S. China is taking her time but working very hard toward the time she can hit us.
I dont believe we are going to put 7 task forces between them,I dont even think it is possible given the standard o.p.[s.o.p.]What u all think, 2 in and 5 spread out over 150 miles to 600 miles timing it when 2 come out 2 go in etc?Also I think they are using 7 because that is more weight we can throw at them then they can at us,plus what we have here, just in case.Say in 1985 we could have sent 4....1955 2...to achieve same purpose now it is 7,does this make anyone stop and think?
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PS Nilsen - Nothing personal. I just get sick and tired of "journalists" like Mr. Johnson.
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np Funked.... i have no idea who it is. i just found the article on a website about naval things that i trawl through every day
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Yeah, you're beginning to sound like an Arvo Arrow head, er.. i mean thread.
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they wanna give the chinamen a chance to test out their new sub
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040716-123134-8152r.htm
or for us to play with it :)
think they have the kahonas to pull a flyby stunt like before? I don't think so, not with the a/c 7 cv'c would have orbiting about :)
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lol "chinamen".... almost as good as "negroes".
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Originally posted by MrCoffee
China said they they will take back Taiwan at all costs very recently. So I think this is a gesture of, "yeah right" to them.
Move along, nothing to see here, cough ***.
China says so for at least 50 years now. So, I suppose, American carriers gather in large groups because they are afraid they can get hurt by Communist front-line bombers like this: http://www.pstripes.com/dec00/ed120900a.html
Or, even better, here: http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a2f28db67ab.htm
The carrier USS Kitty Hawk took 40 minutes to launch its first plane after its commander ordered a response to approaching Russian warplanes that buzzed directly over the carrier's conning tower, Navy sources say.
Their account contradicts an official version of the Oct. 17 incident in the Sea of Japan and a subsequent Russian flyover while the Kitty Hawk's crew underwent training in international waters near Russia.
Pentagon spokesman Kenneth Bacon on Nov. 30 quoted the Navy as telling him, "In both cases, the planes were acquired by the battle group's radar at a considerable distance, and in both cases, interceptors were put into the air and the planes maintained a suitable distance away from the Kitty Hawk."
But two Navy sources say that in the first incident, the Russian planes, an Su-27 Flanker and Su-24 Fencer, flew directly over the Kitty Hawk's tower. One source said they swooped to 200 feet; another Navy official said "several hundred feet."
From the moment the commander ordered planes launched, it took 40 minutes to scramble aircraft.
The first to launch was an EA-6B Prowler, an electronic warfare jet unsuitable for intercepting, one Navy source said. Later, F-18s went airborne to cut off the two Russian planes. A Navy official disputed this, saying he was told that F-18 Hornets were the first to launch.
Damn. Three flyovers by two front-line bombers covered by two or four fighters :D I wonder how many officers had to wash their pants after Su-24s passed them by at 60m :D waving wings to greet our American strategic partners.
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How many overflights did we make of Moscow?
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talk about being owned
Following the Oct. 17 flyover, the Russians tweaked the Americans by e-mailing photographs of the carrier’s deck and its warplanes directly to the Kitty Hawk crew’s webmaster through the ship’s Web site, Wensing acknowledged.
in all fairness baroda the carrier was in "alert 30".....they were also in the proscess of refueling another ship
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Russian military still serving dogfood?
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Boroda are u living on earth or phoneing this in from the klingon empire?
every carrier in international waters has 2 planes up at all times as cap. [ o k there are a few exceptsions but the russion planes wouldnt be up either] even when we had carriers at long beach a lot of time the 2 fighters were patroling on the other side of catalina.now if u saying this happened in carter years ok i give u that.
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Borda,
Is this the response you would have liked us to use on those two fools..?
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/sm2-dvic460.jpg
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Originally posted by demaw1
Boroda are u living on earth or phoneing this in from the klingon empire?
every carrier in international waters has 2 planes up at all times as cap. [ o k there are a few exceptsions but the russion planes wouldnt be up either] even when we had carriers at long beach a lot of time the 2 fighters were patroling on the other side of catalina.now if u saying this happened in carter years ok i give u that.
demaw according to the art. it happend recently but the carrier was in friendly waters and at alert status 30. They tracked the aircraft from take off and did not percieve them as a threat. They launched a chase within 30 minutes.
It also said that if this had happened 20 years ago the migs would never gotten close enough to see the carrier.
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Damn. Three flyovers by two front-line bombers covered by two or four fighters I wonder how many officers had to wash their pants after Su-24s passed them by at 60m waving wings to greet our American strategic partners.
Well....actually they probably laughed, waved, took some pictures, and then went down to the wardroom for a cup of coffee.:rolleyes:
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Gunslinger you are right,I wonder were the escort ships there and how many missles were targeted and I thought they were our friends now and ..and...and.. lol damned if u do and damned if u dont.
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China will never attack the US or try to take back Taiwan by force. Doing so would risk them alienating their largest consumer for their goods. All they are trying to do is saber rattle to get the US to cave over the whole Taiwanese issue, which, in time, we will, and they will be happy...
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
in all fairness baroda the carrier was in "alert 30".....they were also in the proscess of refueling another ship
Three times?... If your carrier vessel is so capable of repelling enemy planes that it can afford three times to have a pair of Russian supersonic low-alt penetrating front-line bombers covered by four air-superiority fighters to pass 60m over flight deck - then you definetly can't be defeated :D
Did they refuel another ship all three times? If so - please think of having some tankers in your CV battle formation.
Otto, in international waters an attempt to launch a missile could result in an adequate answer. I think that trading two front-lime bombers for an aircraft carrier is more then success. A whole regiment of heavy supersonic bombers could have it's "combat task fulfilled" if they all don't RTB but sink one American CV.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
China will never attack the US or try to take back Taiwan by force. Doing so would risk them alienating their largest consumer for their goods. All they are trying to do is saber rattle to get the US to cave over the whole Taiwanese issue, which, in time, we will, and they will be happy...
Very, very well said.
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Boroda, keep dreaming... your military couldn't get 12 aircraft into the air at one time... cripes, when are you going to stop trying to pretend that Russia is a bad arse, and accept that you live in a 2nd world nation....
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Bodhi,
If you are talking about now ,I belive u are correct,If u mean in the future than sadly i think u are wrong.In ten but I think closer to 15 years unless we have come up with some amazing [defense/offence] weapons they will take us on.I believe them when their leaders say we will have war within 10 but I believe 15 years. The chinese are a much differant kind of people than others that have threaten us.When the time comes they will not care how much money we spend with them as they will not think what is best for china now,but what is best for china 200 years from now.To many of their leaders have said this and more.I was never afraid of what russia would do,I am afriad of what china will do aspecially if we act toward them as we did russia.
respectfully demaw.
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You didn't answer, Boroda. How many Washington overflights have there been?
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I heard (and believe) that when it comes to countries like China and some in the ME, what we consider to be wars, they consider to merely be battles. Their wars last hundreds of years.
I could see the current leaders of China patiently looking forward to a future battle with the west 200 years down the road.
Call me an optimist... but in 200 years the world's people are gonna be so intertwined that the idea of fighting is gonna seem as absurd as punching your mom in the face.
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Originally posted by demaw1
I believe them when their leaders say we will have war within 10 but I believe 15 years.
WHAT!?
Is it what American teenagers are still taught at school?!
I only can hope that if our "leaders" (bloody beloved Party and government may they all rot in hell together with comrade putin and all his gang) say something - it means exactly opposite.
I hope that any nuclear powers will not have any wars at all. And I hope that my country will not be involved in any war with any other country.
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Originally posted by Lizking
You didn't answer, Boroda. How many Washington overflights have there been?
Joke attempt recorded ;)
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No joke, my friend. Your planes overflew a carrier group. Not good, but not the end of the world. We overflew your capitol, with near impunity, and still could. Could you?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Three times?... If your carrier vessel is so capable of repelling enemy planes that it can afford three times to have a pair of Russian supersonic low-alt penetrating front-line bombers covered by four air-superiority fighters to pass 60m over flight deck - then you definetly can't be defeated :D
THE USSR IS NO MORE.....THERE IS NO WARTIME FOOTING....THEY WERE IN FRIENDLY WATERS!
To top it off THERE WERE NO "ENEMY" PLANES.
they were tracking the migs from take off!
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Boroda, keep dreaming... your military couldn't get 12 aircraft into the air at one time... cripes, when are you going to stop trying to pretend that Russia is a bad arse, and accept that you live in a 2nd world nation....
12 aircraft? How about our Defence minister flying a Tu-160 from Saratov to Kamchatka and then to Vladovostok? A good show, 10000km flight, but at the same time our strategic bomber force working on test targets in Indian ocean near Diego-Garcia?...
Bodhi, we had more then 12 shturmoviks at the same time working on targets in Chechnya when it was nessesary...
Don't underestimate your... hmmm.... strategic partner ;)
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Originally posted by Lizking
No joke, my friend. Your planes overflew a carrier group. Not good, but not the end of the world. We overflew your capitol, with near impunity, and still could. Could you?
Damn, WHEN!? In the 40s?!?! Even then - I doubt it.
;)
Still could? Wanna test our SAM grid capabilities?
Or do you mean Matias Rust landing at the Red Square? I have some jokes about that to tell you ;)
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No, we didn't have good enough satellites until the mid 1960s. then we quit using planes for the overflights. Got any Russkie sat photos of Washington at 3 meter rez? 1 meter?
I think our planes could penetrate your SAM web, destroying much or most of it in the process. It would make for a good flight sim, Boroda, why don't you do one.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
THE USSR IS NO MORE.....THERE IS NO WARTIME FOOTING....THEY WERE IN FRIENDLY WATERS!
To top it off THERE WERE NO "ENEMY" PLANES.
they were tracking the migs from take off!
Yeah. As my Military department teacher, Lt. Colonel Kargolin told us back in 1992: "Look, cadets: our strategic partners are still unable to fly at 40,000m, but we are ready to greet them there" ;)
Our countries are still enemies :( Or, to be frank, the US are the enemy of the whole world... :(
If you think that there were no "enemy planes" - then why was the US task force training less then 100nm from Vladivostok? Why did they perform recon missions aginst Russian bases in the Far East?
And: they couldn't track any MiGs from the take off. The planes that flew 60m ober Kittyhawk's flight deck were Sukhois ;)
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On July 4, 1956, a U-2A out of Wiesbaden, Germany, overflew both Moscow and Leningrad--Operation Overflight became a reality. The CIA had hoped the U-2--with wings so long they reflected primarily high-frequency, rather than radar, waves--would prove immune not only to attack but to detection. But National Security Agency listening posts in Europe could track the plane's progress as measured by the activation of Soviet radar stations.
Unable to admit that American planes (conceivably carrying nuclear weapons) could overfly the motherland at will, Khrushchev did not publicize the incident.
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Boroda please come down to earth....American teenagers are taught very little in school....what are they taught.....Girls are taught oral sex is not really sex[re.bill orilley and a former surgeon general under clinton she said this] how to put condoms on a banana in 7th grade...are you gay?.... susie has 2 mommys,in 6th grade...on and on...America has almost destoryed the innocents of youth.So u are way off base about what or kids are taught in school.
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http://www.space.com/php/multimedia/imagedisplay/img_display.php?pic=h_moscow-severodvinsk_02.jpg&cap=Image%20of%20Moscow,%20USSR,%20(left)%20taken%20by%20the%20Keyhole-9%20satellite%20on%20April%206,%201979.%20On%20the%20right%20is%20a%20picture%20of%20the%20Severodinsk%20Shipyard%20in%20the%20former%20USSR,%20taken%20by%20Keyhole-7%20on%20May%2029,%201967.%20CREDIT:%20USGS
That is 1967 and 1979. Guess what we have now.
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Originally posted by Lizking
No, we didn't have good enough satellites until the mid 1960s. then we quit using planes for the overflights. Got any Russkie sat photos of Washington at 3 meter rez? 1 meter?
I think our planes could penetrate your SAM web, destroying much or most of it in the process. It would make for a good flight sim, Boroda, why don't you do one.
Liz, your hi-alt recon planes were not ready before Moscow had a complete ring of SAMs in late-40s. Your attempt to cross USSR from Iran to Urals and then to Arctic ocean failed on May 1st 1960 when your U2 was sho down by a single battery of S-75 SAM.
We had sattelites before you. We never tried to make aerial photos of DC, despite of the fact that your SAM experience including targeting and general tactics is non-existant (the only surface-air victory was an Iranian airliner, so my Uncle has a victory list longer then all American aircraft defence ;)).
You may think that your plane can penetrate our aircraft-defence system. Yes. Penetrate it only until the decision will be made to shoot it down. In case of massive attack a regional radio-technical troops observation officer could make an immediate decision to shoot your hordes of aerial gangsters, including usage of nuclear warheads against B-52 formations.
S-200 SAM, that I studied to be a technical department officer for, was targeted by Minutemen. I mean every S-200 brigade (yes, every unit was a brigade) was a first-rank target for your Minutemen missiles...
I hope that our current relations and the whole situation in the world made this things impossible, at least I hope so.
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Nash,sorry I didnt make myself clear,my bad. I meant we will have to fight them in 15 years or so,China will do now what they believe will be best for china in 200 years.Their leaders have said this over and over.It has been in such left wing papers as n. y. times...l.a. times chicago trubune and even pbs radio.Just repeating,but am uneasy because I believe them, from their history.
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Originally posted by demaw1
Bodhi,
If you are talking about now ,I belive u are correct,If u mean in the future than sadly i think u are wrong.In ten but I think closer to 15 years unless we have come up with some amazing [defense/offence] weapons they will take us on.I believe them when their leaders say we will have war within 10 but I believe 15 years. The chinese are a much differant kind of people than others that have threaten us.When the time comes they will not care how much money we spend with them as they will not think what is best for china now,but what is best for china 200 years from now.To many of their leaders have said this and more.I was never afraid of what russia would do,I am afriad of what china will do aspecially if we act toward them as we did russia.
respectfully demaw.
demaw, realistically think about what you just said. Why in the world would China waste teh time and effort to attack us when, if like you say, they are willing to wait 200 years, we will tear ourself apart in the next 75. The Chinese are not stupid, an attack now would only ensure their destruction, and an attack in 15 years would only end in mass destruction on both sides. Meanwhile, our domestic defense gets stronger, and theirs, well... that war would only make China unlivable...
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Boroda, understand me. I do not denigrate Russian technology or the will of the people. You must understand, however, that when you starting laying your weinie on the table for comparison, then facts count louder than propaganda.
Are you saying that we did not overfly Moscow? Multiple times? Are you saying that the USSR did not WANT hi rez photos of washington DC?
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Originally posted by Boroda
12 aircraft? How about our Defence minister flying a Tu-160 from Saratov to Kamchatka and then to Vladovostok? A good show, 10000km flight, but at the same time our strategic bomber force working on test targets in Indian ocean near Diego-Garcia?...
Bodhi, we had more then 12 shturmoviks at the same time working on targets in Chechnya when it was nessesary...
Don't underestimate your... hmmm.... strategic partner ;)
Boroda,
B2's routinely fly from Missouri to Afganistan, a round trip of over 20000 miles, non stop... in flight refueling the whole way...
Do you honestly think your nation could support massive combat ops on the scale necessary to fight the US? Get real, you can not, we can not, no one can afford to fight a conventional world war anymore, which means that unconventional war is where it will head. Now, do you want to test the accuracies and response time of your ICBM's versus ours? Right now, 8 subs are at sea with in striking distance of your entire country... care to take a guess as to how many of yours are in the same position? Care to take a guess on the maintenance of your land based weapons? Come on, you are not an idiot, fighting us will only end in your destruction... which, is reality is destruction for all.
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Originally posted by Lizking
On July 4, 1956, a U-2A out of Wiesbaden, Germany, overflew both Moscow and Leningrad--Operation Overflight became a reality. The CIA had hoped the U-2--with wings so long they reflected primarily high-frequency, rather than radar, waves--would prove immune not only to attack but to detection. But National Security Agency listening posts in Europe could track the plane's progress as measured by the activation of Soviet radar stations.
Unable to admit that American planes (conceivably carrying nuclear weapons) could overfly the motherland at will, Khrushchev did not publicize the incident.
This could happen, but in 1956 USSR already had the first ring of SAM defence around Moscow already operational (S-25 vertical start missiles). OTOH the first successfull surface-air missile kill was achieved in 1959 over China...
In 1956 Khruschev already had R-7 intercontinentional missile ("Sputnik") that was capable to deliver a hydrogen warhead to any desired point at the US...
I bet we shot down more U2s then you shot any Soviet aircraft combined by your SAMs ;)
Sorry, I am getting really drunk now, it's 07:30 noe here in Moscow - so please give me a break ;)
Keyhole images are declassified, but our Kosmos data are probably still not. The picture of a center of Moscow (it's maybe 1/16th of a current city size) looks like it was made not in 79 but 69 (No "Belgrade" hotel built around 75 etc). Or maybe I just can't see it because i'm already drunk %-]
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Boroda, hae you ever played the old game "Flight of the old Dog"? or read the book?
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Boroda,
B2's routinely fly from Missouri to Afganistan, a round trip of over 20000 miles, non stop... in flight refueling the whole way...
Do you honestly think your nation could support massive combat ops on the scale necessary to fight the US? Get real, you can not, we can not, no one can afford to fight a conventional world war anymore, which means that unconventional war is where it will head. Now, do you want to test the accuracies and response time of your ICBM's versus ours? Right now, 8 subs are at sea with in striking distance of your entire country... care to take a guess as to how many of yours are in the same position? Care to take a guess on the maintenance of your land based weapons? Come on, you are not an idiot, fighting us will only end in your destruction... which, is reality is destruction for all.
Bodhi, you say exactly what I mean. Conventional war is impossible. In "non-conventional" war there will be no winners. Anyone who will want to test capabilities of Russian or American ICBMs must be crazy. I don't know how much Russian subs are in White Sea now at launch positions now - and I only know it's enough to ensure MAD...
I have said many times in this thread that I don't want any war. Russian military doctrine is now based on pre-emptive nuclear strike. Yes, I am not an idiot. At least I hope so. I really hate "blue" side coming closer and making base in Estonia, 5min of flight for tactical aviation to SPb... Do you think you need to disturb a bear? You are not an idiot too. Let's live together and let others live.
Sorry.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Our countries are still enemies :( Or, to be frank, the US are the enemy of the whole world... :(
Well Boroda, good to see you finally came clean with your delusional paranoia that reveals you're still stuck in the cold war of the 1970s. You now join the ranks of infamous BBS'ites such as Voss and MrBlack.
Congratulations.
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Originally posted by Lizking
Boroda, understand me. I do not denigrate Russian technology or the will of the people. You must understand, however, that when you starting laying your weinie on the table for comparison, then facts count louder than propaganda.
Are you saying that we did not overfly Moscow? Multiple times? Are you saying that the USSR did not WANT hi rez photos of washington DC?
Hehe :)
We have different approaches. Both sides deserve equal respect. If we lay our weinies on the table - one will be longer but other will be thicker ;)
Why do you think I said we didn't want photos of DC? We needed them and we got them. From sattelites. If you overflew Moscow - it was long before 1960. If you did so after the Ring was built - you were lucky bastards or "red" side simply let you do so. For you it was easier - USSR was surrounded by your bases :(
Sorry, I didn't play the game or read the book your mentioned :(
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PM me, and I will send you the book and the game. It runs on DOS, so your state of the art should run it OK.
[Foghorn Leghorn] That's a Joke, Son, laugh[/FL]
Seriously, it is a systems sim, not a flight sim, and is pretty fun. best thing I have seen to date to simulate heavies making a low level nuke run. Of course it is "ECMed up" from a regular B52 and very much simplified, but it provides the same challenges as it would probably be.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Well Boroda, good to see you finally came clean with your delusional paranoia that reveals you're still stuck in the cold war of the 1970s. You now join the ranks of infamous BBS'ites such as Voss and MrBlack.
Congratulations.
I am not paranoid, just drunk now. If you think that your country is a frienfd to Russia - then you should ask you president. BTW, RUMsfield was a defence secretary back in the 70s, wasn't he? great come back!
Can anyone tell me why you all talk about MrBlack? What was wrong about him? Just being African deserved such a harsh approach? Sounds like Soviet propaganda of the 70s...
Out of beer now. If you guys will keep responding to my posts - I'll go take a bottle of vodka out of refrigirator...:rolleyes:
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Well it is late here, 50 minues till midnight, and I am working on drunk. Get the vodka out, I have a sip or two of whiskey I can pour.
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Now, boroda. I can't find a picture of it, but I did find plenty of articles. Tell me about the 100+ nuke subs mothballed and rusting on the Kola . How about the home fleet?
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Bodhi, thanks for response,I will do my best.
We may tear ourselves apart as u say ,I give credence to that.Like you say they are not stupid,but they think so differant from others.There history screams it out.I read in the paper couple days ago how they are willing to lose several billion people in a war with us.They have long range plans.They have said if they were on par with us now they would have taken taiwan, if it meant war so be it.No politics meant, but what clinton did in giving our tech.to them really hurt us.I have read they gained 20 years on us from that ,[wont argue years.]
They will not attack us now,but their own goal is 10 years, they said that.I didnt say they are willing to wait 200 years to attack us ,I said they are willing to wait 200 or more years for their vision to come to pass.They never forget a perceived wrong.They do not believe they will be destoryed or their land unliveable.
they believe there is a good chance that we would not retaliate,I am only half sure we would.Bottom line,they believe they would survive.I have read so much about it I believe they believe they would survive. THANKS.
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Originally posted by Lizking
Well it is late here, 50 minues till midnight, and I am working on drunk. Get the vodka out, I have a sip or two of whiskey I can pour.
Took vodka out. Poured 50g. Clinking with my display: dzin' ;)
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Originally posted by demaw1
I read in the paper couple days ago how they are willing to lose several billion people in a war with us.
They have said if they were on par with us now they would have taken taiwan, if it meant war so be it.
They will not attack us now,but their own goal is 10 years, they said that.
I have read so much about it I believe they believe they would survive. THANKS.
mkay source?
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Wow this was refreshing even without food %-)
Originally posted by Lizking
Now, boroda. I can't find a picture of it, but I did find plenty of articles. Tell me about the 100+ nuke subs mothballed and rusting on the Kola . How about the home fleet?
The problem is that we have worked our prettythang off to build more subs then you... Now we have beasts like Typhoon two-hull submerged missile cruisers, with displacement close to your Iowa battleships... They have winter gardens, saunas and swimming pools on board (i mean it! 25m swimming pools!).
Who needs old vessels when we have new ships? IIRC you have only Ohio SSBMs on duty now? You abandoned Seawolf attck sub project and now start to withdraw LA-class from duty - so do you expect us to keep November ("Kit"= "Whale") cruisers?
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No, well, yes. I don't have numbers, but I am guessing that our nuke mothball fleet is 30 odd subs. Soviet doctrine has always been to hand those units down, not get rid of them. An admirable concept too, and similar to how our National Guard is outfitted, but the Russians always carried it to it's logical extreme.
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Originally posted by Lizking
No, well, yes. I don't have numbers, but I am guessing that our nuke mothball fleet is 30 odd subs. Soviet doctrine has always been to hand those units down, not get rid of them. An admirable concept too, and similar to how our National Guard is outfitted, but the Russians always carried it to it's logical extreme.
If a sub is signed off duty - it's simply kept in a harbour with some skeleton crew to simply not let it sink with a reactor on board. Subs that you think are "mothballed" are in fact unable to ever take out to the sea. They are disarmed and almost scrapped (or really scrapped of everything valuable).
We don't have any "reserve" technical equipment, just as we don't have anything like your National Guards. Everything that is signed off duty, including almost new planes (like MiG-25s anf Su-15 interceptors 10 years ago) are immediately torn apart and sold out as scrapped aluminium... :(
There are legends that we have thousands of ZiS-5 trucks (that simply have nothing valuable to steal from), PPSh automats and Mosin rifles - but nothing modern that contains valuable metals like copper or aluminium. :( So it goes.
Another glass for your health: dzin'!
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Sometimes it seems natural.... then BLAMMO I am jolted by the startling epiphany that we're talkin to a bonafide RUSSIAN about submarines and such.
who knew...
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So the Russian army does not pass down equipment, tier to tier in the armys?
(http://www.lizking.com/salute.jpg)
(My last shot, the spell check is taking longer than the inital post)
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HEhe, pouring another 50grams, nothing to chase it with - but who cares i have a cigarette, 0930 here saturday is out %-]
Your health! dzin'!
I thought about scanning my hand with a glass, tried it, spilled half of the glass on the scanner screen, no good %-]
Good night guys!
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Lizking I'll save ypur picture as a wallpaper so I'll not drink alone at my computer console ;) Thanks!
YOu are left-handed? this makes a picture even better as a target for dzin'! :D
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I am left handed, and I am going to bed.
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I have to give the Russians this much, they are way ahead of the US in movie to video production. My son's fiancée has been in Moscow visiting her grandparents and she already has videos of Spiderman 2 and Shrek 2, months before we'll get them here in the US. You guys in Russia must really have some sophisticated equipment. :aok
Hope she isn't busted bringing 'em in to the US. ;)
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Originally posted by AKIron
I have to give the Russians this much, they are way ahead of the US in movie to video production. My son's fiancée has been in Moscow visiting her grandparents and she already has videos of Spiderman 2 and Shrek 2, months before we'll get them here in the US. You guys in Russia must really have some sophisticated equipment. :aok
Hope she isn't busted bringing 'em in to the US. ;)
Communism taught them to steal well.
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China doesn't need the US to consume it's goods. Certainly not to the tune to an over 120 billion dollar trade deficit a year. The US is however becoming reliant on those cheap goods from China. What is happening though is US manufacturing infrastructure is being seriously erroded because of the trade deficit.
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"What is happening though is US manufacturing infrastructure is being seriously erroded because of the trade deficit."
being?
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
"What is happening though is US manufacturing infrastructure is being seriously erroded because of the trade deficit."
being?
J_A_B
Being what? The trade deficit? Over 500 billion a year in total. Over 120 billion of that is with China.
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Rest of the world makes the products they buy, and lends them the money to buy them.
Hell of a racket.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
This sounds bad.
But thanbkfully we have a clear alternative - everyone Knows where Kerry stands when it comes to allowing asian communist agression. We will all be safe if you vote Kerry in november...
And just exactly what was the point of Vietnam, Grun? What was our potential gain?
curly
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Originally posted by Nash
Rest of the world makes the products they buy, and lends them the money to buy them.
Hell of a racket.
so where'd they come from? huh? scardy cat???
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My apparently unclear point was your questionable use of present tense. We've lost our manufacturing jobs already, by and large.
I can't see any long-term good comming out of it personally, but OTOH nobody much misses the ~90% of farming jobs that the evil tractors took away although it was much maligned at the time.
J_A_B
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What people forget is that while domestic manufacturing employment drops, output continues to rise. Just like with agriculture in the last century.
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On a completly different matter FUNKED1
Where is Northern Aztlan? Ive asked a couple of times over the last few months but no reply :)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Where is Northern Aztlan? Ive asked a couple of times over the last few months but no reply :)
Roughly all the western USA.
A bunch of rabidly racist Mexicans, some of them prominent US college proffesors openly want to take it all back for Mexico.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Roughly all the western USA.
A bunch of rabidly racist Mexicans, some of them prominent US college proffesors openly want to take it all back for Mexico.
Aha...are you fishing, trolling or beeing serious? :D
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Quite serious, unfortunately.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
This will be the first time in U.S. naval history that seven of our 12 carrier strike groups deploy in one place at the same time. It will look like the peacetime equivalent of the Normandy landings and may well end in a disaster.
[/B]
aah ... coool ... so Chinese can smash them all at once :D
indeed not a good place to play with boats, whitch tard developed sutch genital idea ?
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Boroda, keep dreaming... your military couldn't get 12 aircraft into the air at one time... cripes, when are you going to stop trying to pretend that Russia is a bad arse, and accept that you live in a 2nd world nation....
ahh so you still know nothing about russia... ok
well if im not wrong, when Boroda say "our aircrafts" he mean Russian aircrafts whitch has been sold to China...
Am i correct Boroda ?
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Originally posted by Boroda
Bodhi, we had more then 12 shturmoviks at the same time working on targets in Chechnya when it was nessesary...
Don't underestimate your... hmmm.... strategic partner ;)
12 shturmoviks ?
did you mean I2 shturmovicks, like Il-2 shturmovicks ?? :D
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Originally posted by AKIron
I'm certain we have more nukes capable of hitting Beijing than Beijing does hitting Washington. I'm also certain that Beijing knows this and will avoid doing any nuclear testing while we are visiting.
Wow.... can you post some of your sources regarding how many US nukes aim Beijing and how many Chinese Nukes Aim Dc ?
IMAO... 1 will be enough to level whole DC/Be
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Originally posted by Bodhi
China will never attack the US or try to take back Taiwan by force.
Well from Chinese point of view, there is no Taiwan as country.
There is island named Taiwan and it belong to China. lets see if they gonna solve it as well as they solved question of Tibet.
I doubt, that they will just keep smilling on you coz of $$.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Because Rumsfeld and Cheney are EVIL!!!! ;)
more morons that evil :p
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Anyone here that woult think of a conflict between Taiwan and China as a domestic conflict?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Anyone here that woult think of a conflict between Taiwan and China as a domestic conflict?
If any of chinese provinces will try to separate it is domestical conflict.
i do not see any diferences between Taiwan and Henan, do you ?
actualy whoeve do not consider it as domestical problem, post your reasons
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Originally posted by Slash27
No they invaded the US on the CA coast and in the gulf. Their armys made it all the way to north carolina until they were finally beat.
They must have avoided Texas at all costs.:D
Nah, they're already here, man. Friggin' Chinese buffet restaurants on every damn corner.
The funny part is that a lot of 'em are coming from Mexico. Cracks me up to have some guy speak to me in extremely broken-up Chinese-accented Engrish, then while I'm there eating hear him spew at the kitchen help in Chinese and talk to Mexican customers in Spanish that you'd never know wasn't being spoken by a Mexican unless you were looking :)
culero
PS - to be fair, I ran into one of these guys the other day on the street, it'd been a long time, and his English is WAY better - they're assimilating.
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Originally posted by Lizking
Are you saying that we did not overfly Moscow? Multiple times? Are you saying that the USSR did not WANT hi rez photos of washington DC?
It was more economical to ask someone of the ambassy to buy a map :D
plus it's a well know fact that the Aeroflot pilot are prone to error when following a route.
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Lada.
There is no doubt that Taiwan is a part of China. Some may claim that they have independence but they dont.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Quite serious, unfortunately.
Well, Grunherz, we did pretty much take all that away from Mexico at gunpoint in a war we started on their soil, yanno.
I ain't saying we oughta let 'em have it back, but I can see why they're PO'ed about it.
culero
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Originally posted by Nilsen
There is no doubt that Taiwan is a part of China. Some may claim that they have independence but they dont.
Most important about this is fact, that public opinion in china, do not tolerate any speculation about independent Taiwan nor presence of any foreigner army over there.
I spoke about it with several Chinese one week ago and all of them (young and old) had sutch opinion. Even those who live in abroad.
man remove that nude dude from your avatar, it makes me hot :D
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Originally posted by lada
man remove that nude dude from your avatar, it makes me hot :D
Sorry...it annoys the hell outa my gf so it stays :cool:
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Originally posted by AKIron
I have to give the Russians this much, they are way ahead of the US in movie to video production. My son's fiancée has been in Moscow visiting her grandparents and she already has videos of Spiderman 2 and Shrek 2, months before we'll get them here in the US. You guys in Russia must really have some sophisticated equipment. :aok
Hope she isn't busted bringing 'em in to the US. ;)
actualy thats stupid strategy of US recoding companies.
If you will from some odd reason schedule various realeses accross the world, you can bet that some folk will not wait on their kindness.
Actualy LoR for internal use only were here months before cinema releases :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Sorry...it annoys the hell outa my gf so it stays :cool:
post her email and i gonna confirm some common strategy agains you....
chmmmm .... somewhere in the grass, under big tree :D
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superhotgirlfriend@housewithloverboynilsen.no
:)
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damm it doesnt work
Hi. This is the qmail-send program at i_will.get_her.cz.
I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses.
This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out.
:
Sorry, I couldn't find any host named housewithloverboynilsen.no. (#5.1.2)
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From: "Your Dream"
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Subject: Im your dream
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:)
can you verify that please ? :D
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lol lada :D
i can not confirm anything these days wihtout permission from my gf. she is in a difficult mood and asking her this would not make it any better
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Originally posted by AKIron
I have to give the Russians this much, they are way ahead of the US in movie to video production. My son's fiancée has been in Moscow visiting her grandparents and she already has videos of Spiderman 2 and Shrek 2, months before we'll get them here in the US. You guys in Russia must really have some sophisticated equipment. :aok
Hope she isn't busted bringing 'em in to the US. ;)
If you'll check file-exchange networks you'll see that all this films are availible in Kazaa or Edonkey even before official release ;) This is definetly done by some communist spies :D
The problem with "counterfeit" videos is that image, sound and translation quality is usually better then on "official" releases we have here, and at the price 3-5 times smaller. You have to be mentaly disable to pay more for worse product.
Many foreigners buy dozens of CDs and DVDs here and I have never heard of any problems bringing them to the West.
Hehe, even Russian releases are pirated before they are in theatres. I had a copy of "Nochnoy Dozor" ("Night Watch") 10 days before an official release. I hope you understand that I went and watched it in theatre.
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Originally posted by lada
12 shturmoviks ?
did you mean I2 shturmovicks, like Il-2 shturmovicks ?? :D
Shturmovik means close sground support aircraft. Modern Russian shturmovik is Su-25. A-10 is called shturmovik too here.
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oh god i really got drunk yesterday :rolleyes:
È âðîäå áû âñ¸ êàê íàäî...
È õóé áû ñ íèì ñ áëîêîì ÍÀÒÎ...
Íî òîëüêî êîãäà ÿ íàïüþñü
Ìíå ñíèòñÿ Ñîâåòñêèé Ñîþóóç!!
(ñ) Øíóð è Ëåíèíãðàä.
:eek:
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lol Boroda....happens. Im getting wasted tonight so prepare yourself for lots of strange posts
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Originally posted by Boroda
Shturmovik means close sground support aircraft. Modern Russian shturmovik is Su-25. A-10 is called shturmovik too here.
Su-25 is called hrabe here, whitch means rake :D
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Originally posted by lada
actualy thats stupid strategy of US recoding companies.
If you will from some odd reason schedule various realeses accross the world, you can bet that some folk will not wait on their kindness.
Just out of curiosity, Lada, is there anything that the US does right?
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Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Just out of curiosity, Lada, is there anything that the US does right?
What do you mean by US ...
Thing i spoke about is simple problem of some concrete idiots who manage Producting companies....
Its not problem related to band of retards at mad house
:D
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answer to capt p queston
NO No no nnoo NNOO nOOO NNNoooo N.O. n. o. NNNNNNNNNooooooooooo NIEN nien nniieenn......N..........O n.....o
ok capt p. What part of no dont you understand?
he he I been on this site i believe 1 week,only took first day to understand We are so miss understood...lol
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Originally posted by lada
What do you mean by US ...
Thing i spoke about is simple problem of some concrete idiots who manage Producting companies....
Its not problem related to band of retards at mad house
:D
Is breathing a voluntary action for you?
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Originally posted by lada
Su-25 is called hrabe here, whitch means rake :D
Good nickname :) It looks like rake with full combat load and works like rake or sometimes a plow ;)
In Russian rake=grabli - sounds similar as in most Slavonic languages ;)
Nickname for Su-25 in Russian is "grach", now please calm down, it means a "rook"! ;)
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No they invaded the US on the CA coast and in the gulf. Their armys made it all the way to north carolina until they were finally beat.
Looks like they made quick work of the West Coast and Southerners :lol
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Well, if you have ever played Fortress America, you would know that it takes a strong Southern thrust and a drive from the west to the NE to win. Messing about in the Gulf and on the East coast gets you kilt.