Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hans on January 06, 2001, 03:31:00 AM
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One thing mentioned by Pyro and HiTech was enabeling perk planes for free when a player populations become lopsided.
I logged on once tonight, and Bishops and Knights both had over 60, but Rooks had 28.
There is a vicious cycle of being outnumbered making others not want to play, and that makes the disparity even worse.
At least if the Perk Planes get in there with the population count rule, it wouldn't be so bad.
Go ahead, outnumber my country....I dare ya!
Hans.
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We may not have to wait until the next version to have a perk plane. It's looking like the F4U-1C will end up getting perked as I don't really want to stretch the point value differences further. I don't think point values on planes will have their full effect until there's something to cash them in on.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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Good idea Pyro.
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Perk the 1c, but make it cheap, like 10 perk points to fly.
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Pyro.. a suggestion..
before experimenting with perking the F4u-1C... make it land based only. Should close the perk point gap considerably.
AKDejaVu
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HOW CAN THE 1C BE PERKED!
Well over 200 of them flew in ww2.
What will the complainers move on to next?
Now that the hog is gone im sure we will all hear Spit Dweeb Spit Dweeb again (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Seriously the first perk should be the 262.
Why? No prop drag, torque or prop to model.
Would it not be cheaper,easier to model?
Start out with the best make it hard to get and give it the lowest multiplier of all the perk planes
EYE
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thank god.
was getting to where every plane in the sky was an f4u1c at times.
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N1k should be perked along with the CHOG as cheap perks of 20 points would be fair. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Finally, no more CHOGs all over. it was getting out of control =)
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Beurling,
Pyro isn't talking about perking the F4U-1C because of anything the "1C whiners" might have said.
The Perk point system is based around how often an aircraft/vehicle/boat is used. The more it is used, the more it is worth when it is shot down.
Now the F4U-1C is so common that it is distorting the perk values. Pyro said that he didn't want the range of points to be that large, e.g. the F4U-1C would have to be worth so many points when compared to something like the C-47 or C.202 that it will cause problems within the perk system.
What Pyro said has nothing to do with how good the F4U-1C is or is not. It only has to do with how often it is being flown.
I, for one, would welcome this. It is not because I can't handle F4U-1Cs (they are easy kills generally) but rather because I like diversity in the MA and the F4U-1C is REALLY hurting diversity right now.
Tac,
The N1K2 is not flown often enough, yet, to distort the system.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 01-06-2001).]
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This is awesome :-) Thanks Pyro!
It's the combo of the inherent qualities of the F4U with 20 mm(Which is a very good, but not a superplane, as many of the more fanatical whiners claim) PLUS the fact the CHog is the best general AC for Jabo work and tank busting PLUS the fact that the CHog is one of only five fighters enabled from the CVs that was making the CHog a ridiculously large # of sorties.
We don't have the same scoring data as we did for previous tours but I'm sure the kill % of the CHog of total kills has been even worse this tour.
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Perk 'em all. Let God sort 'em out. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Rape, pillage, then burn...
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Beurling, there were 1,435 N1K1's built and their not even used as much as the F4U-C. There were 3,382 Ki-84's built and their not even on the game. I don't think it's a bad idea to perk the F4U-C just do to the fact that it wasn't very common. I meen man if there were 200 F4U-C's and were using that as a reason, there were 300 Me 163's built. They should be like flies on here.
[This message has been edited by Jimdandy (edited 01-06-2001).]
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I think you misunderstood me. the first part of my post was firmly tounge in cheek.
I would never fly a 1c why ? I think they suck performance wize. Im not a fan of any f4 unless it has crosses on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The niki saw lots of service killing b29's over japan.
There is always a faction of plane haters.
Who like to knock others choice of ride.
Calling them dweebs etc. I was making light of this.
I think puting the 1c as a perk is a good idea.
Its a silly idea to have a perk system without a reward.
EYE
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
best new I've heard in ages (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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before experimenting with perking the F4u-1C... make it land based only. Should close the perk point gap considerably.
Agreed. The 1C has no performance benefits over the 1D, so why perk it? Because of the guns? The N1K has 4 cannon as well. Because of the roll rate? The 190 rolls better than the 1C. Because it can take damage so well? The P47 is more robust (but not as fast on half a wing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
The 1C currently bears Marine Corps markings. Fine, make it a Marine 1C with no tailhook ... make it a land-based aircraft ONLY. That will probably cut the number of 1C's in the arena overnight!
No need to perk it IMHO.
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cc sorry for misunderstanding <S>
Originally posted by Beurling:
I think you misunderstood me. the first part of my post was firmly tounge in cheek.
I would never fly a 1c why ? I think they suck performance wize. Im not a fan of any f4 unless it has crosses on it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The niki saw lots of service killing b29's over japan.
There is always a faction of plane haters.
Who like to knock others choice of ride.
Calling them dweebs etc. I was making light of this.
I think puting the 1c as a perk is a good idea.
Its a silly idea to have a perk system without a reward.
EYE
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Hmm so the chog is gonna be perked just so people have something to cash in their perk points for??
eeewww not so sure i like that reasoning, but.....
AKskurj
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Perks are a way to balance the arena, not so much a means of classifying planes. How many were produced or what its combat record was is not relevant. Some planes intended to be perks may not need to be while others that weren't intended to be may end up getting perked. Right now, the F4U-1C is accounting for about 20% of all kills in the arena. I don't want to push the score values any further so perking it is about the only option left. I don't really like the idea of making a carrier plane unavailable from the carrier.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
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For the sake of balance pyro, you should make it unavailable from the carrier.
Why is someone going to want to spend their perk points on an aircraft that is out-performed by so many standard aircraft in the arena? The only thing it has going for it is 4 hispanos.
AKDejaVu
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Yah - *nobody* gonna spend thier perk points onna C... so this perty much rids this plane from ever seein' the skys of AH again. I know it makes alotta you guys happy... but I got a bad feelin' about the whole thing.
Complain about it loud and long enough, and everyone flocks to it because gee - it must be some ultimate magical plane, et voila, it gets perked. It aint gonna end with the Chog, I reckon... What's the next target, fellas?
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Originally posted by Nash:
Complain about it loud and long enough, and everyone flocks to it because gee - it must be some ultimate magical plane, et voila, it gets perked. It aint gonna end with the Chog, I reckon... What's the next target, fellas?
Most probable: N1K2.
Not that I say it should or not should be perked, its that it is seen in dozens right now (At least I am seeing them a lot lately). And after (if) the Chog is perked, the N1K2 will be the plane of choice for most of the Quakedweebs in the Main. Maybe I am wrong, but with so much niks on the main it can be the next choice.
If that happens, and after it...mostly none. All the rest of the planes have really serious drawbacks to level their pros.
Spit IXs are slower and have 2 cannons (hispanos,still, but only 2 and with little ammo clip).
Fw190s are hard to fly and survive in. The A8 is a pig and the A5 is as fast as a Spit IX (so, it is damned slow).
Typhoons have 4 hispanos.Still doesnt turn too well, and if the torque comes back and if the Roll thing gets fixed (take a look into the Rollrate thread in Aircraft&Vehicles forum) it wont be easy to fight in, either.
P51s are fast but cant turn.
Fw190D9 will be faster, but will turn even less.
Me109G10 requres really good shooting and pacience. It will be never a massively used plane.
I still think that even if the Chog is erased from the CV planeset it will be massively used. The problem is not the plane itself, the problem is the 4 turbolasers it carries, they allow for gameish flying and tactics, mostly like the N1K2 has with its amazing E-keeping, fast turning and 4 cannons (the problem is not the cannon itself, its that it is on board of a thing that can bear them on target on half-a-second)...
So the plane of choice for most of the quakekids on the Main arena is the flying lazerbird, followed by the N1K2 "Japanese spinning wonder" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif). If those guys can't fly none of those two ,they will have to grab a normal plane and ACTUALLY learn flying ACM and Skills.
I dont think that is bad for AH. And I am sincere.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-06-2001).]
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I imagine everyone will fly the nik, until that gets perked, then the spit. :P
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Well, at least I don't think I have to worry about my ride ever getting perked.
The much overlooked YAK!
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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With a planeset this big one AC with 20% of the kills is a LOT.
A lot of the CHog sorties are jabo. And now many of the CHog sorties are Carriers. The N1K1 isn't CV-capable.
Yes, the N1K1 will then be the AC with the most Air-to-Air Kills if the CHog is perked, but in no way, shape, or form will you ever see as many of them in the arena as you see CHogs now.
I feel the CHog sorties after it's perked will be split pretty evenly among the DHog, Niki, FW, Jug, Typhoon, Hellcat, etc.
Making for a more interesting and fun arena.
Look, the Chog was a CV plane. If it's in the arena, it should be CV enabled. Disabling them from CVs seems far more arbitrary to me than perking them.
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Originally posted by Pyro:
Perks are a way to balance the arena, not so much a means of classifying planes. How many were produced or what its combat record was is not relevant. Some planes intended to be perks may not need to be while others that weren't intended to be may end up getting perked. Right now, the F4U-1C is accounting for about 20% of all kills in the arena. I don't want to push the score values any further so perking it is about the only option left. I don't really like the idea of making a carrier plane unavailable from the carrier.
Pyro does this mean the Perk system will always be changing since the percent of kills determines what is perked and what is not? After every Tour will the kill ratio be reviewed to determined the next Tour's perked AC? Basing the system on todays PAC terrain isn't that a little bias. What happens when ETO terrain is default and everyone starts to fly Yaks or Stangs so they can outrun most AC to make it safely home for those Perky points? will the Yak/Stang then be classified as perk when they account for a higher percentage of kills in MA? This Perkage system will change the whole MA atmosphere no more friendly AC dropping 10k to clear your six since they'll be too worried about perkage. Perkage will cause more swarming then ever since no one will want to engage unless they know that they will have 20 AC to back them up. But we will see.
Oh I hear Fatty yelling "Just don't perk the Buzz beer!"
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 01-06-2001).]
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Great experiment for the perk system. It can be unperked if the result is not worth it.
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Gotta agree with Nash and like-minded others on this one. I'd like to see the 1c stay un-perked for a few tours. Let the carrier newness wear off, let people have tangible reasons to care about perk points (i.e. planes to spend them on) and then see if the 1c is still accounting for such a large number of kills. If it is, then do what you gotta do.
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citabria is right about this system failing slightly in that once the f4c is perked it will obviously become less popular.so will this mean the very next tour it becomes unperked?
Im all for perking aircraft that cause imballances but based on popularity wont work in the long term.will perking be indefinate or for a few tours?
having said this i too am sick of fighting f4c's all the time but only because of the damn quick death i seem to get from them and the fact that fighting duels with f4's around leads to quick deaths from them swooping into furballs etc.This is because we see too many but when they are gone the next plane will take its place..im betting more niki's.
this is going to get tricky.
hazed
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lord give it a rest the tubolaser bird is finnaly gonna get controled . and any thing you say in disagreement is just so much whining , ( right back at you ) the numbers on the plane bear that our . the c hog has been the scurge of this game since the day of its arrival .still kills a main battle tank in a ho after how many versions?
most of you dweebs have perfected gang bangin nubys in a hord to keep a constant supply of perk point so why gripe . just get in the air with your 20 squad mates and go attack 5 guys trying to defend a base rather than just change sides like most do when the gang tactics start. this place is like war birds was when the exodus started . a few old hands that have learned to quake the flight model and lots of very temperary nubys. sad but true
best thing they ever did perkin that bird. now make the osti gun killable from above by somthin other than a c hog , give the squads their own arena and you got a cool game on you hands.
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Interesting little debate. The problem as I've seen it, and heard about, are the Hispano cannons. Not that they're terribly bad, just a little bent outa shape. I've never been a fan of "combined ammo" since it really messes up ballistics, damage, and kill potential. Mausers, as I understand it, mostly use HE rounds; so in AH they're HE rounds. Hispano guns were usually loaded with a 1:1 AP and HE rounds (IIRC). So we get AP-HE combo shells, with the ballistics of the AP round.
As it stands, the F4U-1C is a great plane. In essence, it's a typical A model Hog with the six 50's swaped out for quad 20 mils. In my mind, this makes it a perfectly good plane to fly. However, the combined ammo bit is getting to the point of perking an aircraft that shouldn't get perked. Yes, the Hispano cannon was and still is a marvel of aircraft gun technology. So, we come down to the old "Hispano-whiner" debate. What's wrong and how to fix it.
Here's what I've figured out. Combo shells are a bad thing, the AP-HE shells are giving Hispano-armed aircraft a very high advantage, and this could be (relatively) easily fixed. How? Ditch the AP-HE rounds and go with either stock AP or stock HE rounds. I clearly remember Pyro, HiTech, and even (egads) Hotseat over at WBs saying that they would not model player-selectable ammo loads. It would chew up far too much time.
That's the only sure-fire way to solve the gun problems. I remember several people here asking for HE-mine shells for the Mauser. Not going to happen by the looks of it. It boils down to what we're looking at right now. Perking an aircraft that has two advantages; combined ammunition load of AP-HE rounds, and the fact it is more maneuverable than a Typhoon. Yes I am dragging that old gun debate out of the grave. The problem still exists, the only thing that's going to change is the aircraft which carry these so-called superguns will cost you points.
Some solution (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think God wants to hear from me right now.
I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/custom1.jpg)
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Perk the P-38
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If the perk system is indeed dynamic, there is no problem with perking some or one of the planes right now.
Let me describe what I mean. Once a large part of the sorties flown (or kills made etc.) in the MA are made with a single plane or so *zap* it goes perk. Then people will gradually flock away to the next uber candidate and *zap*, that plane becomes perked and the earlier perk becomes perhaps available again. You can see the pattern (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
This wouldn't mean complete diversity but at least it would make for "seasons" of some kind. Ie. "niki season", "spit season" etc. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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SageFIN
"I think IŽll believe in Gosh instead of God. If you donŽt
believe in Gosh too, youŽll be darned to heck."
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I don't believe you can simply say, "The CHog's got 20% of arena kills, so we'll perk it".
What kind of flying reaps those 8-10 kill sorties? The vulch.
Where do you find a good vulching proposition? Fields which have been reduced either by buffs or jabo.
What planes are excellent for jabo? CHogs.
I wouldn't doubt that of those 20% of arena kills, at least half are the result of a field vulch. I overflew a field this morning that was being vulched repeatedly by what looked like 20 CHogs. Easy pickings there!
Wanna perk a current AH plane? Perk the Nik. Then make the CHog a Marine aircraft (like the insignia it bears) and make it ground-field only.
I'll fight the CHog in anything. But when I see a Nik coming, I'll disengage every time I can.
Just one of the problems I s'pose of not modelling an aircraft's weaknesses as well as its strengths (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Originally posted by Jekyll:
Just one of the problems I s'pose of not modelling an aircraft's weaknesses as well as its strengths (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I agree
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Glasses---I may have 4 eyes ,but you only have one wing.
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/glasses.htm)
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 01-07-2001).]
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Jekyll & Glasses...I, and I'm sure the rest of the community would surely appreciate it if you could indicate which weaknesses aren't modeled on the Niki that are modeled on other arena planes. Thanks!
Also, if you could supply a list of any other planes that you don't like, perhaps those could be perked for you as well. You may want to check out the F6F...I've found that as fun for a TnBer to fly as the Niki, and my gunnery has even gone up...must be screwed up as well! Or, maybe it needs to kill you a bunch of times first, before it's actually overmodelled? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
SOB
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This got alla makings of a damn slippery slope....
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i would not agree with perking the 1c if we did not have the 1d
i do not agree with perking the n1k since the japanese dont have another good airplane, so clearly as of right now the n1k should not be perk
the 1c however has a CLEAR option: the 1d or the hellcat for USN fans. which in my opinion, makes it perk material.
wtg pyro.
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If you me there isn't another good Japanese plane on the game I would agree. If you meen the Japanese didn't make another good plane I strongly disagree. As I said above the Ki-84 was produced in quantity and the Ki-61 (admitedly very close to being a 109). I realy think both of these planes should be added for more Japanese plane variety. <S>
Originally posted by Zigrat:
i would not agree with perking the 1c if we did not have the 1d
i do not agree with perking the n1k since the japanese dont have another good airplane, so clearly as of right now the n1k should not be perk
the 1c however has a CLEAR option: the 1d or the hellcat for USN fans. which in my opinion, makes it perk material.
wtg pyro.
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Weeeeeeeeeee - what fun to see all the CHog- drivers getting the chills... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) - hehe, one thing we "LuftWhiners" heard so many times: wait and see, don't whine before something actually happened... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) oooh and how they are defending their precious little baby... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hey come on - so far nothing has happened and if it does not work they will reverse - it's still the same HTC that brought you the CHog. And, even if you are in a emotionally difficult situtation right now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ,listen to what Pyro said!! It's not about classifying the plane it's just about balance!! Hello!! 20% of all kills???!!! Vulch or not - the Chog does take a unproprtionally part so either give it a ENY rating of 1 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) or perk it... now don't be afraid, I am sure it's not gonna cost you a months wage. And it's a great possibility to really test the perk system!!
This is the most exciting moment for me since the 'Wuerger' arrived in AH... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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There is no need to perk the chog..
Just make the Hispano's as unreliable as they were in real life: gun jams, barrel overheating etc..
There was a solid reason why FAF chose russian 12,7mm MG in place of the original Hispano 20mm.. the pilots hated hispano in combat - just too unreliable.
The arena would be greatly balanced if 80% of chog drivers would end up with 3 jammed cannons after first 2-second full burst or high-g manouver shot =)
I'm sure it would then become less popular in air combat and more used for steady angle ground attacks.
Just my .02
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Originally posted by SOB:
Jekyll & Glasses...I, and I'm sure the rest of the community would surely appreciate it if you could indicate which weaknesses aren't modeled on the Niki that are modeled on other arena planes. Thanks!
SOB
I can tell you of planes' strenghts not modelled (or at least faded away because all planes have it)
Fw190A's Kommandogërat. ALL planes in AH have it. And it is a HUGE advantage faded away. In general, the Fw190A was the best pilot-friendly plane of all WWII. Here ALL planes are pilot friendly.
MG151/20 was possibly the most reliable 20mm cannon in WWII. Here ALL cannons are 100% reliable (including the historically unreliable ones). Another advantage faded away.
German planes' weapon Selector switch. Right now the Fw190 MUST fire ALL cannons at the same time in linked fire. Real life Fw190As had a electrical switch to fire inboard only, outboard only, or all, cannons at a time. One of the advantages of having an electrical-actuated cannon as the germans had was the easy inflight weapon selection, just turn the switch.
Right now 30mm in A8 and MGFF in A5 are worthless because are impossible to aim correctly due the different ballistics.
And the word "ammo economy" is a joke in a 190...with 710 rounds a Fw190A8 has way less firing time than a F4U1-C, with 800...because the F4U1-C can fire two cannons only at a time while the 190 MUST fire all at the same time. Same with wing cannon mounted Me109s, that had EXACTLY the same switch. its all or nothing, while in real life it wasnt this way.
Fw190As could have cowl MGs removed. Not so here.
Mausers Mg151/20 could fire the mine shell able to kill a bomber with a dozen hits. Not so here.
And Fw190A rolls 20 deg/second slower than in real life (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Etc,etc,etc
N1K2s had defects of fablications. Unreliable structure. Underperforming engines. And bad fuel to burn. Not so here.
So, it has ALL the advantages, it has NONE of the drawbacks.
I could do this with more planes, but you asked for an example, I give you an example.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 01-07-2001).]
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believe or not i think the nikis bad fuel is modeled. with highoctain fuel it was a true super bird . i.e. fast as most us planes and much more manuverable.
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I find the logic of this baffling. You have a store (AH) And you decide to make your most popular product unavailable. That makes no sense to me.
I don't fly the hog. But they will get to my favorite one(s) sooner or later, im sure.
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Originally posted by Pyro:
We may not have to wait until the next version to have a perk plane. It's looking like the F4U-1C will end up getting perked as I don't really want to stretch the point value differences further. I don't think point values on planes will have their full effect until there's something to cash them in on.
Welp Looks like I will e headed back to Air warrior Or Warbirds then. Cuase I for one think the perk points was a very very bad idea sort of like a solar powered flash light. perk points only favor the no life dweebs that have nothing better to do then Play for 16 hours a day 7 days a week. I pay just as Golly-gee much money as them (more if the 19 buck newbi rate was ever implimented). And Ive been playing since the beginning. I think I as a paying customer have the right to fly one of my favorite plains.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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ROFLMAO..
Here comes the "I have a RIGHT to fly (insert plane here)" Crap.
What makes it extra-pathetic this time is that you can fly a DHog with essentially the same performance.
Same stuff that ruined the RPS in WB.
I'm sure the Supreme Court will be looking into your Constitutional RIGHT to fly the CHog, Mayhem. Somehow I don't think HTC is quaking in their boots.
And good luck finding another sim that even has it at all. (Is there one? I don't play boxed sims much at all.)
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haha
Point is why should I suffer becuase I have a life and don't have the time to dweeb out and fly suicide missions 16hours a day 7 days a week. Worse case scenerio is I leave and go back to warbirds or Air warrior both are cheaper and have no such limitations to my knowledge. And if Iam willing to leave Iam sure theres more. theres a bunch of people that just left over the whole buggy 1.05 issue then there was a group that left due to the lop sided numbers. next thing you know your going to flying in a areana with 5 poeple at peak hours or HTC just flat out goes bankrupt and you don'thave a game to play. I think Its still legal to voice my opinion hell I paid for it didn't I. I stayed even after the whole price isssue with giving new players a lower price rate even over people that have playing and paying since the beginning. I think theres a point when I have to say "enough is enough" and this is it. I'll can my account and play HTH and or go to warbirds or Air warrior. Aces High doesn't have it all any way I don't think any sim does. War Birds and aces are perty close after all Ah is perty much an improved warbirds and war birds is an improved Air warrior rip off. you also have warbirds III Air Warrior MV and Air warrior IV due out. I think the entire comunity issue on all of them has gone to hell and that was the one thing I enjoyed most about these games. now we have perk point system that leans totaly to Time spent online rather then skill. it take sall the fun out of the game.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by Nash:
Yah - *nobody* gonna spend thier perk points onna C... so this perty much rids this plane from ever seein' the skys of AH again. I know it makes alotta you guys happy... but I got a bad feelin' about the whole thing.
Complain about it loud and long enough, and everyone flocks to it because gee - it must be some ultimate magical plane, et voila, it gets perked. It aint gonna end with the Chog, I reckon... What's the next target, fellas?
i totally agrre with nash here. yes i hate the chog, but im sure ill hate the niki next after the chog gets perked. The way i see it is that it is going to be a descending spiral. As "uber plane A" gets perked, then everybody will fly the next best plane, can you see where i am going with this? Eventually channel 1 will be full of people whining about how unfair and plentiful the da vinci glider is.
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Originally posted by loser111:
i totally agrre with nash here. yes i hate the chog, but im sure ill hate the niki next after the chog gets perked. The way i see it is that it is going to be a descending spiral. As "uber plane A" gets perked, then everybody will fly the next best plane, can you see where i am going with this? Eventually channel 1 will be full of people whining about how unfair and plentiful the da vinci glider is.
My bigest gripe about a the n1k2-j is there where only 400 of them to see service. however to be leathal in it you really do have to spend alot of time in the plane to master it. I leanred it flying it against a group of japanese players that just stomped my sorry but in it flying in the training arena early morning. eventually however we will all be limited to spitfires becuase every one cried about this plane or that. thye perk points just makes it 10 times worse.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
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Originally posted by easymo:
I find the logic of this baffling. You have a store (AH) And you decide to make your most popular product unavailable. That makes no sense to me.
I don't fly the hog. But they will get to my favorite one(s) sooner or later, im sure.
You look at your most popular product, realise the profit potential and profit loss of your other products, so ya jack up the price. Over time interest dies off, so you lower it again. The cycle repeats.
People moan about, get over it, and life goes on.
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But to be honest guys.
Would a rolling plane set not be a better idea?
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Ya in a special areana, or mabey if your on the 9.95 plan over at warbirds. same problem however Iam going to go where I have the most fun flying the planes I like the most. that means I'll either be paying 30 bucks a month to live in the training arena. Or I kill my HTC account and play HTH and pick up a new warbirds and or Air warrior acount.
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easymo wrote:
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I find the logic of this baffling. You have a store (AH) And you decide to make your most popular product unavailable. That makes no sense to me.
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I find your logic baffling (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The way I see it, the 'store' has a product
called 'Aces High'. Inside the 'Aces High'
box, there are all sorts of fascinating
pieces. You 'could' just pull out all the
pieces and throw them around the room, but
it might be more fun to follow the rules,
whatever they are. The rules 'might' say:
"you can't use a xx piece until you get so
many 'points'". Much like in Monopoly, you
can't get any hotels until you buy some
houses.
Personally, I think any plane that started
production after the end of '43 should
be 'perked'. That is, if we had more early
war planes, and I liked arena play to
begin with. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
anRky
-Ih8ubb
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As much as i dont like the chog, becuase of its all too familiar one-ping-one-kill guns, im not sure if perking it is the answer. The answer lies in reducing its presence in the arena and thus reducing its kill percentage. This can be achieved by, as jekyll pointed out, making it totally land based. If you could get the percentage of that 20% of total kills that were from carrier-based chogs i'll bet that it would count for at least half of them. Because the carrier thing is still new, a lot of people fly from carriers now. For example take the F6F, it has the second highest score in that graph that HTC provided. Why? simple, because of the percentage of total sorties that have been launched from carriers. How many F6F's have you seen taking off from an airfeild???
Now if we could take out those kills that came from a carrier launched planes that graph would look alot different i would suspect. If we remove them from the carrier then the number of chogs in the air would be reduced by nearly half and thus bringing the total kill perdentage down to a normal level.
[This message has been edited by Spatula (edited 01-07-2001).]
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I enjoy killing F4U-1Cs in my Zero. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I just wish I didn't have to do it so often. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Sisu
-Karnak
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Betown,
Yes, we should.
But if you think people whine about the CHog you won't believe the whining from an RPS.
My general impression is that HTC has no intention of ever having one and the perk points are sort of a substute. I still don't see how one can get anything earlier than 1943 AC in the MA even with perk points, however.
The WB RPS was great but apparently has caused and is causing incessant whining. (I was in WB and quit about when Pyro and HT left).
What happens is you get the anal-retentive contingent of players and squads having massive conniption fits because they can't fly the same plane all the time, then you get the calls to have an "RPS" arena and an arena set to late war full time..then the RPS arena ends up having 5 people in it all the time with 150 people in late war (though, interestingly, while I think the majority of players support an RPS, oddly, when you have an early war and late war arena, the late war arena takes over as people chose to fight where there are the most people.)
[This message has been edited by Torgo (edited 01-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
...bunch of stuff... I could do this with more planes, but you asked for an example, I give you an example.
Actually, you really didn't tell me much there. AH doesn't model random failures or reliability into anything, so that really isn't an issue. You did tell me a bit about the 190s, but I don't really care about them LuftWaffley planes (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
SOB
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Let's just perk every plane that has more than one 20mm cannon.
Gunery will go up as players fly planes with only MG's. Everyone will benefit right?
Well right?????? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Mav
[This message has been edited by Maverick (edited 01-07-2001).]
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Originally posted by Kirin:
Weeeeeeeeeee - what fun to see all the CHog- drivers getting the chills... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) - hehe, one thing we "LuftWhiners" heard so many times: wait and see, don't whine before something actually happened... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) oooh and how they are defending their precious little baby... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I don't fly the chog. I'm just a little worried that the precedence of perking the plane that gets the most kills in the arena will eventually lead to perking some planes that non-chog flyers will be pissed about. And then there will be a few people eating crow when they become the whiners.
Since nothing's happened yet, and since I can't tell what impact (good or bad) something like this would have, I'll set my thoughts aside for now.
Fury
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By definition, there ALWAYS will be one AC that gets the most kills in the arena.
The question is HOW BIG the margin is between it and everything else.
It's the MARGIN that's gotten too big for the CHog.
The Niki, after the perking of the CHog, will, of course, have the most arena kills.
But it will never have as many as the CHog had. It's 1) not CV capable 2) not a good jabo AC, and there are better choices for tank attack, and even for air to air, I doubt EVERY CHog sortie taken up from land bases for air-to-air becomes a Niki sortie.
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Originally posted by Beurling:
HOW CAN THE 1C BE PERKED!
Well over 200 of them flew in ww2.
Where did you get that number from? I think it may be just a tad high, but I'll check the Vought (and Goodyear if they even made -1C's) production run and see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by EDO43 (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Originally posted by EDO43:
Originally posted by Beurling:
HOW CAN THE 1C BE PERKED!
Well over 200 of them flew in ww2.
Where did you get that number from? I think it may be just a tad high, but I'll check the Vought (and Goodyear if they even made -1C's) production run and see. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by EDO43 (edited 01-09-2001).][/B]
He pulled it out of where the sun don't shine. My source says exactly 200 F4U-1As were delivered as F4U-1Cs.
-SW
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Pyro, just 2 words THANK YOU
I think the game will turn again from Quakeish behaviour to a more "rational" way. Personally I do not find the C-Hog extremely difficult both to avoid and kill in my Zeke. But It is a) Boring to have such a C-Hog infested Arena b) Boring to have such a high percentage of Head-On only pilots. Dunno if the perk system as a whole, or in this particular case, will work, but I definitely want to give it a try.
As for the "I Quit" characters: Do it. I will when I'm fed up. As of today, I'm really hungry yet. But, please, do it for real. Save our time & yours, and besides yourselves, quit your whines and cheap threats. If you like the game, play. If you do not, quit. But please, be quiet. The rest of us are playing. We need concentration. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe
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Pyro... CHEERS!
I owe ya a beer or two... or three or...
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Originally posted by Pepino:
Pyro, just 2 words THANK YOU
I think the game will turn again from Quakeish behaviour to a more "rational" way. Personally I do not find the C-Hog extremely difficult both to avoid and kill in my Zeke. But It is a) Boring to have such a C-Hog infested Arena b) Boring to have such a high percentage of Head-On only pilots. Dunno if the perk system as a whole, or in this particular case, will work, but I definitely want to give it a try.
As for the "I Quit" characters: Do it. I will when I'm fed up. As of today, I'm really hungry yet. But, please, do it for real. Save our time & yours, and besides yourselves, quit your whines and cheap threats. If you like the game, play. If you do not, quit. But please, be quiet. The rest of us are playing. We need concentration. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Cheers,
Pepe
Oh Please!!! this coming from some one who flies a paper airplane that turn on dime? I could almost put credit into this if you flew a stang a Fw190 a bf109 specially a p47 ... but a zeke. You probably hate anything big and blue ... or big and silver but exspecially big and blue.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-09-2001).]
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Boring to have such a high percentage of Head-On only pilots
If you think perking ANY plane is going to prevent that, think again!
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I thought the original idea of perk points was to allow people to fly special planes. Not sure Chog classifies as being special, it is just popular. Prior to the release of 1.05, all the interview stuff I read refered to perks as a way to reward people, not as a way to balance the type of planes. I say let people fly whatever they want and save the perk idea for something special.
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Originally posted by BigGun:
I thought the original idea of perk points was to allow people to fly special planes. Not sure Chog classifies as being special, it is just popular.
Define "special?"
There's likely no difference between "Special" planes and "Popular" planes, effectively.
"Special" planes are pretty much guaranteed to be popular.
The Tempest is a "special" plane. If it was added without perking it would end up being 50-75% of all land airfield fighter sorties, even worse than the CHog.
The Me 262 is "special". And without perking again I bet you'd see 50-75% of all land airfield sorties be Me 262s without perking.
It just so happened that the Chog was added well before perk points were implemented.
If Perk points had been put in, THEN a perked Chog added, I very seriously doubt whether anyone at all would have complained about how it should be unperked.
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This is from a news update from htc..
We don't have any perk planes going into 1.05, but we'll still have the system up and ready. It's been awhile since we've discussed the perk system so I'll describe the basics of it again. On the outside the perk system is a way for us to introduce some interesting but otherwise unbalancing planes on a limited basis but the benefits go deeper than that. Perk planes (and vehicles) would be things like Me 262s, Ta 152s, Tempests, B-29s, Ar 234s, Tiger IIs, etc. These are interesting rides but would be very unbalancing if they were available on an unlimited basis. So there won't be unlimited availability but they'll be available as bonuses or perks every so often.
From this I guess the Chog (or any other plane that is popular) is considered very unbalancing). I don't have a problem with perking Chog or any other plane. One question would be does that mean if Chog is unpopular after it is perked it will be unperked?
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"From this I guess the Chog (or any other plane that is popular) is considered very unbalancing). I don't have a problem with perking Chog or any other plane. One question would be does that mean if Chog is unpopular after it is perked it will be unperked?"
Try replacing the word "popular" with "unbalancing" above and then you would at least appear to have comprehended the reason it may be perked and not going off half baked like several others have.
-Westy
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Westy....obviously you didn't comprehend what I typed...I was equating popular with unbalancing.
An in addition...I didn't go off half baked. I said I had no problem with them perking Chog or any other plane.
BigGun
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wish a couple of you guys had the balls to post under the same name you now fly with.
The Nik not flown as much as the chog?...not from where I fly.
Yes indeed...we need more Japanese planes, have always liked to fly them but won't fly the Niki cause of the whiners.
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The Nik not flown as much as the chog?...not from where I fly.
- The F4U-1C has 17714 kills and has been killed 13133 times.
- The F6F-5 has 7090 kills and has been killed 8056 times.
- The N1K2 has 7151 kills and has been killed 5714 times.
- The F4U-1D has 5583 kills and has been killed 5853 times.
- The P-51D has 4719 kills and has been killed 4560 times.
- AKDjV has 90 kills and has been killed 41 times in the F4U-1D.
- AKDjV has 0 kills and has been killed 0 times in the F4U-1C.
Just where do you fly?
AKDejaVu
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My perception Mr Vu is that I see as many Niks as chogs...neither of which bother me much as I simply dont care what other people fly.
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Dedicated-good 1C pilots wont go flying the N1K2, IMHO. The dweeb crowd will go N1K2.
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Jekyll & Glasses...I, and I'm sure the rest of the community would surely appreciate it if you could indicate which weaknesses aren't modeled on the Niki that are modeled on other arena planes. Thanks!
I think RAM's list covered everything quite well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Also, if you could supply a list of any other planes that you don't like, perhaps those could be perked for you as well.
SOB, if you had even bothered to read my initial post you would see I am against perking the C-Hog (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You did tell me a bit about the 190s, but I don't really care about them LuftWaffley planes
Well, that's obviously the difference between us SOB ... I happen to care about all of the AH aircraft. I have my favourites, sure, but I like to see a balanced arena.
BTW, I just noticed that in Tour 11 over half your kills came from flying the N1K2, so I suppose I can understand your fear and loathing of other aircraft (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Gatt spake:
Dedicated-good 1C pilots wont go flying the N1K2, IMHO. The dweeb crowd will go N1K2.
Hmm, like a certain C.205 driver I recently met in the MA GAT? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Now you know why I won't fly the N1K2. I don't want to be associated with the wrong crowd (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 01-10-2001).]
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You mentioned modelling a plane's strengths without modelling any of it's weaknesses...I asked you to point out what weaknesses weren't modelled on the Niki that were modelled on other AH aircraft. Perhaps you should read my post again, it had nothing to do with the Chog, just your random statement about the Niki without any facts to back it up.
Well, that's obviously the difference between us SOB ... I happen to care about all of the AH aircraft. I have my favourites, sure, but I like to see a balanced arena.
That's nice...it's good to see that you can take words out of context, and make up your own story. My question was about the Niki...which RAM didn't address at all. Basically, his post had nothing to do with what I asked, despite being formed as a reply to me. My interest doesn't lie in LuftWaffle planes, therefore someone else (enter RAM) can worry about folks throwing out random snippets of rubbish about the planes he chooses to fly.
SOB
Ahh, and good show, you can also use the score page! You should have looked back further, and you would have had even more ammunition for whatever point you were trying to make with your last sentence...I've been flying the Niki almost exclusively since Tour 7. If you could check this tour's stats, you'd also notice that I've had only about 3 sorties in the Niki, instead favoring the Hellcat, but don't worry...I'll still be flying the Niki too!
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Hmm, like a certain C.205 driver I recently met in the MA GAT?
Dang! During my only NIKI ride I get Jekyll, I'm definitely not lucky (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) During certain TOD everyone can lose his style, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BTW, I'm flying the C.205 and the Spitfire IX, so no worry to be perked for me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by gatt (edited 01-10-2001).]
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"Westy....obviously you didn't comprehend what I typed...I was equating popular with unbalancing."
I comprehended your post quite well. Perhaps you had a communication problem and used the wrong word to denote what you were trying to convey. Neither word even remotely means the same as the other. If you meant to use the word 'unbalancing' then use it. You used the word 'popular' which meaning has become a bone of contention between those who see what Pyros' is trying to do and those who are reacting as if they were having thier first born taken from them.
-Westy
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Originally posted by Westy:
"Westy....obviously you didn't comprehend what I typed...I was equating popular with unbalancing."
I comprehended your post quite well. Perhaps you had a communication problem and used the wrong word to denote what you were trying to convey. Neither word even remotely means the same as the other. If you meant to use the word 'unbalancing' then use it. You used the word 'popular' which meaning has become a bone of contention between those who see what Pyros' is trying to do and those who are reacting as if they were having thier first born taken from them.
-Westy
Na westy some of us are just tired of hearing every one cry about the Chog then it will be the n1k2 then the spit then the 205 and 202 and then......
realsitically its a bunch of people that got thier tulips kicked buy it and they want it gone so the can move on to the next plane untill the only aircraft is left is the ones that they can beet and the ones they can fly. same crap diffrent game. hell the big week message boards where 40times more cival and no one felt the had to be an arse to get thier point across. Now its just one big quake studmuffin fest with every one trying to pump thier delf worth. I got an Idea how about we limit the plane set to one muti perposed fighter then mabey people would stop squeaking about the plane set. personally I want more planes not less. Now Me262's would unballance the game. p51h nor I doubt does the chog not realistically. b29 might I think the lanc does from time to time but its no biggy. you will always have a more popular aircraft and that plane will always score more kills. Soons as the idiots get the chog banned or perked out of existance they will put another plane on the choping block and force pyro into a position he has no choice but to do soemthing. I hate being an arse whole but iam so tired of people crying about a plane trying to get it stomped out jsut becuase it kicked their but and they can't learn to beet it so tey don't feel good about themselves anymore.
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Mayhem 33rd S.G.
"Destination anywhere, so far gone, I'm already there!"
[This message has been edited by Mayhem (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Ripsnort,
Not that perking any plane will change that, but at least the HO only guy will have (generally speaking) a much shorter and unpleasant life without the CHog. For me, that's enough. The good, dedicated F4U pilots will still be flying the 1-D. My money is in Torque being as lethal as usual. HO dweebs (I mean with this the ones that exclusively use HO as attack tactic) will probably switch to Typhoons or even P-47's. Let's see how they fare in them. If they switch to N1K2....well hehehe. Hopefully, in the long run they will realise that HO is not the only, let alone the best, merge manouver. IMHO, HO yields too much reward in the F4U-1C.
Again, I am talking without knowing what will be the system's actual outcome, but I think it's worth to give it a try.
Mayhem, I do fly 190's, N1K2, Pony's, etc. I can get killed quite proficiently in any of those planes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) And C-Hogs. IMHO, F4U series are one of the coolest planes of the whole WWII (and P-38's too). I try not to hate anything, and, if I am to hate something in this game this would be the Quakeboys whose only goal is to see that big orange fireball as soon as possible, with as little time and work in the process of getting it as possible. But, even this ones I don't hate, for I don't consider them part of the game. They are just a nuisance. Just like AI guns. Only with a little less I.
Cheers,
Pepe.
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Well, after reading this whole thing, all I can say is "wow"...hehe. IMHO, the 1C is as good a plane to test the implementation of the perk system as we currently have, obviously there are caveats assosciated with anything new and untested. The 1D is available to those that are truely interested in flying the hog, and the "one ping wonder" will be reined in, to the rejoicing of many, I am sure. I think we should look at this as a great way to test the impact of the perk system, and grab a cold beer to watch the fun. The sky is not falling, yet. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cheers,
TRiM
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I disagree TRIM. The perk system was a way to introduce newer better aircraft to the arena, not remove current planes from the lineup.
It doesn't tell us what happens when the real super-performers enter in.
AKDejaVu
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Westy...to say I didn't use the word unbalancing is incorrect. If you reread the original post it says
"the Chog (or any other plane that is popular) is considered very unbalancing"
This statement does have some sense of equating popular with unbalancing.
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ummm... all planes are perked: 30$ a month (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Gnappo - 1° Gruppo Caccia "Asso di Bastoni"
[This message has been edited by Gnappo (edited 01-10-2001).]
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Deliberate obtuseness be damned.
Here's the situation. Try reading it slowly and aloud to yourself; if you get lost, start over from the top:
- Chog immensely popular. (Being flown very often.)
- More often used, lowers the ENY value.
- Value drops significantly lower than its performance-twin, the Dhog.
- Chog gets 20% of kills in Tour 12.
Here's the (obviously) confusing part-
Rather than lowering the ENY value even LOWER (and making people who kill Chog's run away with perk points, while depriving chog pilots of perk points) you perk the Chog.
RESULT-
Pilots who've favored Chogs must fly other craft to gain perks, to get their favorite plane.
PLEASE NOTE this doesn't mean they must fly only ONE other craft. The HTC are betting that, chances are, they'll spread into the top 6-7 favorite planes of the arena, raising the % of kills for those 6-7 others, and stalling the chog kills until (note, UNTIL) Chog pilots get enough perks to start their cursed ways once more. Then they'll be in their glee, able to fly their security blanket once more, and the kills scored will represent a more balances, variable arena.
Baha! You're wrong you newby anti-american (insert further slurs and invective here) jerk! Get over your own wussiness and take me HO in my Chog while I get the chance! We both know pilots will switch to the next unperked uberplane!
Bull. Market dynamics like supply and demand (let alone evolution theory) will show that's badly thought out, and relies more on scare tactics than truth, time and time again. Lowering the relative value of the Chog didn't work, so they're raising the COST of it. The people who're forced out of the chog won't permanently relocate to a new plane, they'll do what it takes to get their plane back, which means either taking their chances with higher value planes (which will yeild higher points to get their chog) or lower value planes (which will perform marginally better in specialized ways, but will not score as many points per kill).
Here's my two projections-
(1) the chog pilots with skill will go for the higher value planes b/c they know they'll do fine in them, and will be able to get their chog faster. Kills for these planes rise sharply.
(2) those less-able chog pilots will go for the so-called uberplanes and be sorely surprised when they don't perform so uberly (i.e. they'll be killed in a lot of HO's, they'll miss a lot of 20 mm single-shots, and there'll be much whining). Kills for these planes rise, but only very marginally.
NET RESULT?
Planes at the low end of the kill % spectrum (with the higher value, i.e. ENY rating) will be far closer to the 8-9% that the higher-performance/low value planes are, esp. when they start reaping up the abundant kills to be had from low-skill "uber-"pilots. The graph generally balances out more to reflect a higher variety of A/c type being flown, and as Chogs become available, they'll gradually rise to between 13-16% of kills by the end of the tour.
This whole scenario depends on the motivation of the Chog pilot- either they're hot to get back in their plane, or they're going for easy kills and looking for the path of least resistance,
"And following the path of least resistance is what makes a river crooked!" -Utah Philips.
Basically, if all chog pilots are wusses, THEN you'll see the uber-plane cycle start up. If not (and for the record, I'm betting they're not), you'll see a more balanced arena. Now, if the chog pilot's wanna prove my bet wrong, go right ahead.
If a newbie can understand it, I dunno how you old hands can't see the wisdom.
WTG Pyro, ingenious solution.
Jay. (AKA JayNewf)
PS> mayhem, check your stats and ideas on Me-262 performance. Its not such an uberplane: Chuck Yeagar certainly formed an opinion on their performance. Level flight, gunning the jumo's will be its greatest strength: lets see how it handles turns and climbs, perticularly on takeoff.
[This message has been edited by Jay_76 (edited 01-12-2001).]
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I'm probably going to get a lot of negative comments on the comments I am about to make,but here goes. Why should there be perk planes? In my humble opinion, if this game is played by die hard flight simmers, who want as much reality as possible in FM, damage modeling, lethality of guns etc, why the heck are we going to have an uber plane? Gee I can hear it now as Bud Anderson landed in england after a 3 kill sortie, " hey Bud, ya did so good today,tomorrow we're going to let you fly a P-51D with higher lethality, and better performance just because ya did so good today! That folks wasn't reality, the reality of the situation was, Merlins were finicky, Nik pilots never knew when they took off if their "birds" were going to be able to climb to the alt of the incoming B-29s' because of erratic engine performance etc. also, something else to be considered, we're going to be giving perked planes to people that have flown AH for some time and have acquired the skills to earn such planes. I surmise that this might have a bad impact on the new player who arrives, gets his head beat in because he is new, and not only is he facing experienced combatants, but experienced combatants with planes the over perform. This could very easily discourage a "newbie" who is thinking about paying 30 dollars a month to say" gee, this is just great, I have little chance in the first place, and we're passing out uber aircraft to already good particpants, what chance do I have? In my opinion, this might influence someone who is thinking about signing on, to not do so simply for the fact that he or she is not having fun, and why should I pay 30 dallars a month to be aggrevated? My opinion for what it's worth (next ta nothing) <G> My vote is to leave the aircrafts performance as they are, there are ways to engage a C-Hog without getting Ho'd, of course that depends on which aircraft one is flying etc. Introduce the new aircraft as warranted, and the more modern ones will be most certainly superior in performance because of the advancement of technology during the war. EXCEPT, for the Me262 or 163. AW allowed Me262's to be used one day a month, in my opinion it turned the arena into Jet warrior for a day, props only, there are prop planes that haven't been introduced that are a good bit superior to what is in the MA at this time. Also, good pilots will get their kills in any craft so perking really isn't necessary.
[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 01-13-2001).]
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hajo you have stated it pretty well in my opinion. It's fundamentally flawed. You may see less of this or that plane but you will also see less players. And more importantly... less new player than you would with a more rational fairer system.
lazs
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Right on Hajo, absolutely no need for " perk planes " if the arena is unbalanced its unbalanced so what, there arent going to be enough people in the " perk " plane to make that big of an impact, and in fact it may be the country with overwhelming numbers that have people in perk planes, so then it would be way unbalanced.
Would you like to play a game of golf with Tiger Woods and find out at the 1st tee you get a 5 stroke penalty just because you wanted to try something new, thats what the newbie is going to see when they come up against the "perked plane" with an experienced AH player.
Just let the game develope as it developes as far as numbers goes, I dont think AH needs a Paul Tagalabue to ride shotgun and make sure we have an "on any given Sunday" environment.
Lets have planes modeled as closely as possible in all aspects, then add the player who may be experienced or may be new and ya take your chances, if ya ask the plane to perform in a way it cant then your going to reap the award, and vica versa.
I want my $30 bucks to give me realism, I dont want HTC trying to balance the playing field,period no ifs no ands no buts!
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gee..does that mean I'm not gonna get butchered by C-hogs when attacking a CV wid a TBM anymore...oh no!
Well guess I'll have to contend myself with a quick death at the hands of a Niki when flying a 26/17, or lanc...
-tronski-
486 Sqn (NZ), "Hiwa hau Maka"
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Hajo is right. The more i think about it the more the perk system doesnt make sense. The idea that a newbie like myself not only faces far more experienced combatants, but also in 'superior' planes that he cant fly in, is just ridiculous. Hitech seem like a fairly switched-on bunch of guys, but i wonder if they've really thought about this from a business point of view, ie. attracting new players who want to continue playing, which, like it or not, is what they must do in order to keep going.
The way i see it, all planes must be available to all people (which is undoubtedly an attraction in itself), incentives are needed for the weaker, less attractive (in a combat sense) aircraft to ensure at least some degree of balance, i imagine u'd need a sliding scale from the designated weakest plane to the designated uber-est (heheh good luck with the order (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) and if at the end of the day u still have a heap of CHogs in the air then so be it, remember its a simulation it will never be perfect, better to have that than no game at all...
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Sciflyer and Hajo, it's obvious you have no idea how the perk system is planned to work.
It's NEW planes. And the system WILL end up working because people will want to fly the Macchi 202, the !09F, the Zeke and the other "less desirable" planes. "Less desirable" because they're not as fast, don't hit as hard and don't withstand damage as well as other aircraft.
The reason it's starting to feel like AW here is because of the mindless uninformed posts being splattered all over - just like AW's Gamestorm boards.
And it's a sad spectacle too. Not because AH is becoming that way, but because the same people with the same "MO" are coming HERE.
-Westy
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Westy! who appointed you the think tank manager of Aces High? You are going to be selective when using a perk system period! It will not be even, and yes most of us will not fly the perk plane I hope anyway. "perk" what does it mean? Look it up, something added as a gratuity, something superior. something that will not be available to all. That unevens the playing field, regulates the choices that one has, and makes it more difficult for the player that is trying the game for the first time even more so. "Perk" means we are giving an added advantage to the already experienced player. Can't be translated any other way.
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Pyro has stated he intends to balance the arena, plain and simple, if this is the intent of HTC then a far superoir set up would be to make a two country or four country MA, perking planes isn't going to get the balancing job done, with human dynamics in play balance cannot be acheived with a three country set up, throw in the international aspect and it gets muddy real quick, perk sys, bah, bad bad idea.
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What do you mean Hajo? "HTC's think manager"? If you post here you willingly open up anything you say for open discussion. I have an opposite view of the perk system than you and your shadow Tyro here. I've read just about everything Pyro and HiTech have written about the perk system in here. It's obvious that you, Tyro and several others haven't read much at all about it because of what you and they write in your posts - mainly by way of the erronious and wild speculation.
HiTech and Pyro have had at least 5 years running an online business. First with WB's and now here. They had five years experience prior as community leaders in AW. WB's is very successful as an online flight sim and so is AH. AH is the place most people want to be.
How much do you and Tyro have? Why is it people think that HTC does not know what the hell they are doing or that they have not thought this through a hell-of-alot more than they have?
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 01-13-2001).]
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westy in direct response in your earlier post, in regards to former aW participants I do know who you meant. Perking in my opinion will not solve anything as far as balance. secondly, in my opinion it will not encourage new users to stay simply for the fact that they will not be able to acquire whatever is perked until they also accumulate the points. This will be very hard for them to do, to get the skills needed in two weeks during their trial period. tilts the playing field against the new users even more so. so if and when the time comes up to decide should I or shouldn't I pay the 30 dollars, if they're not having fun....the answer will be no. also, I've been managing an operation that requires a fairly good number of people to run on a 24 hour basis daily 365 days a year <G> so I do have some knowledge about operating, what people think, and I've been doing it for 30 years, so I do have some expertise in that area. I'm just pointing out that there are other points of view on the subject, and how someone new to the on-line flight sim community might view this.
[This message has been edited by Hajo (edited 01-13-2001).]
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So Hajo, you think a potential customer is more attracted to an arena where Chogs dominate the skies with their wonder-guns? A newbie won't stay any chance against a half-decent pilot in a Chog.
Jet-day like in AW... hmm... I was flying AW for 1.5 years and always seemed to miss excactly that day. Very frustrating. The only day I was attending when they let the WW1 planes into the arena! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The PerkSystem does bring along a motivation, a reward to fly the underdog-planes. It does therefore emphasize on the variaty of the planeset and makes it possible to introduce planes that otherwise would be unbalancing (e.g. CHog) and that mostly every avation fan would like to try out. HT said that it would take the average pilot to fly 3 weeks to buy such a plane - so don't be afraid of ME262s swarming the skies... hey, one lucky hit and it's gone - dunno yet, what happens with damaged or ditched Perks. Sure, there will be some die-hard Perk-flyers, but they will have to fly the really slow and underarmed planes to get their points quickly. I doubt you will be able to get enough perkies in a perk plane itself to keep a steady flow up (unless you fly like Fishu).
I don't know what you guys are afraid off? Don't you like to see new planes? PerkSystem also allows the introduction of early war planes with a very high ENY value. Finally you get rewarded for not flying the popular quakebird - hey that's something. That will keep some arcade-minded guys out but AH ment to be a hardcore simulation.
Unless we get a historical arena (pretty pleaaaase) the perk system is the only thing from keeping MA to become Quake High.
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Westy! Sweet jesus, your asleep at the wheel,
if you truely have read everything posted by Hi-Tech and Pyro you could easily admit that Pyro has stated over and over for yor benefit no doubt that he intends to "balance" the arena, and as I have posted in many areas I firmly beleive that the perk sys will not balance anything, perking is a reward sys not a balancing sys get it straight and call it what it is and quit dancing around, you want a reward then say so, you want balance in the arena the devise a sys that will funnel players to the country that is presently under manned. Then when numbers are closely matched you have acheived your "balance". I f you have acheived your point quota and get to fly your uber plane then you have been rewared.
Can you possibly come to grips with this?
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Kirin! You've brought forth some very good points...well stated. c-Hogs, well I'll tolerate them, although they are very very lethal. the first time I tried one I was very suprised how effortless it was to get a kill. 800 out, pull the trigger "WHAM" enemy down. I am going to for sure see how the perk system works out. I am just inherantly against giving someone an intentional advantage. Maybe I had a shielded childhood <G> I feel the advantage should be gained using ACM while in the air in a furball, not in the hangar after several missions. But that's my opinion and the last I'll say on the matter <G> I just want everyone to experience the challenge, and fun that Aces High can give you, and the feeling of greater reward when in an inferior craft, you outsmart the enemy, and down him! That's what the game is about <G>
Hajo
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I'm in favour of anything which provides better balance in the arena, but a couple of recent posts has me thinking.
It's three months from now. The Tempest, P51-H, P-47M and Spit XIV are available as perk planes. Since the 'long-time' flyers have been saving their perk points, and flying their perk rides carefully, the perk planes are not at all uncommon in the arena.
Enter John Doe. He's just heard about AH from a gaming magazine. He likes flight sims and decides to see how his free two weeks will turn out. Logs into the arena, looks out of the tower and sees a Tempest roll past.
"Cool" he thinks. Goes to the Hanger screen but cannot find the big British beast. Checks out why on common channel. "Oh, you've gotta earn 50 perk points to fly the Tempest", a helpful pilot replies.
Hmmm, OK. He selects a P51 and takes off, only to die in a hail of bullets from an unseen attacker only minutes later.
'Perk Points = 0'
He flies for a while, getting the occasional assist or rare fill, and watches his perk points soar up to 5 or so.
He does the math in his head, figures 'Screw this' and goes back to CFS2.
Perk planes might be a good idea from our POV, but how will the new guys regard it?
I'm not flying much in the MA anymore, but I've noticed that most of the names in their now are guys I've never seen before - no doubt on their two week freebie. Once lost, it'll be much harder to get them back again.
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
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whats wrong with just limiting the numbers of each plane on a per-country basis? Say at any given time there could only be (x)ME-262s, (y)CHogs, (z)Yaks, etc in the air, that way everyone has an equal chance of flying each plane and its the luck of the draw whether the 262 is in the hangar when u pick your ride...
Surely someone must've thought of this before now?
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I think it is all about having fun?
I didn't know that AH was in trouble?
I guess so if what there doing isn't
working and it needs to be changed?
Go for it HT you are the guy who is taking
all the risks. I can't think of anyone more qualified to make these decisions.
I have had fun since the 4th day of the beta
keep up the good work.
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Jekyll how about this?
John doe decides to try out this flight sim because he likes planes:
As there is no limitation on planes he presses the spawn button and BOOM! killed by 14 vulching expert me262 fliers backed up by 10 b29's who proceed to level everything on the base including each and every blade of grass (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
John thinks mmm since i was a kid i always wanted to fly(insert YOUR favourite here) and if i fly it here i cant kill anything..this is too hard
Alternately John being a quake head thinks Great!! me262 wars, blasts into the sky firing madly boom! tries again does better boom! this is fun!......2 weeks later your free time is up....Hmm was good for two weeks but $30 for this? naaa ill go AW its cheaper.
AH for me personally appeals because of its attempt to model flight dynamics etc properly with all the models of aircraft for us to fly with in missions and sometimes historical scenarios set over months.We all want something different and if you claim gamers will pay this subscription i think you are wrong.before i joined ah i played quake,counterstrike,myth2,roguespear and many others and i never payed for any of them.It was only the fact that i have discovered what it really means to fly and fight..e retention,knowing your enemies planes,positioning,strategy and what weapons work for what targets etc that made me part with my cash.
turn this game into a sort of shootemup and ill go elsewhere.Ive considered this on several occations and i only stay because there is nothing else that comes close to this level of realism so ill pay what 'I' consider to be an expensive price to gain my enjoyment.(oh and i LOVE the game!!or at least what it promisses)
its up to HTC to decide but i know who i think will keep paying and who i think will just try it out and leave.I was one of the 'try it till something new comes along' web gamers.It was HTC's uniqueness that parted me with my money.
hazed
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It has been posed that newbies will not stay since they wont have any perk points to fly the perky rides. Anyone ever play monopoly? Nobody starts out poor, everyone has some money. If the new people get to ride a tempest or a 262 and loose it, at least they will have flown it, and endevore to improve there skills so they can fly it again. A repeat customer who has "bought" into the system. Maybe that is an option being planned.
Liz
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Don't trash the people who like to fly one plane. Not everybody has the same opinion of "fun".
Some people don't mind flying a different plane every flight--to which I say "Good"
But I don't. I fly the SAME plane 99% of the time regardless of what sim I am playing. It is just NOT FUN for me to be flying something else. I am willing to fly online a total of 3 WW2-era airplanes--the P-51, F6F, and the FW-190. I simply will not fly anything else, except for a novelty now and then. I have subscribed to AirWarrior for over 4 years now, and there are a number of airplanes I have never flown online ONCE. I have not tried all the planes in AH, either, and probably never will. I have no interest in them.
That is why I would never play WarBirds (RPS wouldn't allow me to fly favorite plane), and that is why I sympathize for people who like the F4U-1C.
Those who truly like the F4U-1C are understandably upset. I can't blame them for complaining on these BB's--I would too in the same situation. Look at it from their perspective:
They pay $$$ for a product they like. Suddely, the product is changed to something they DON'T like. Being a customer, it is whithin their right to complain--even though they cannot necessarily chance the outcome.
A place to post complaints is among the purposes of this Messageboard.
Please respect that not everyone has the same idea of "fun".
J_A_B
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loser111 said:
> Eventually channel 1 will be full of people whining about how unfair and plentiful the da
> vinci glider is.
Na, the perk will be the ornathoptor (sp?), it has POWERED wing flapping!!!
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M.C.202
Dino in Reno
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Just to add something to this thread:
yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yada
MY BIRD IS BIGGER THAN YOURS
yada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yadayada yada yada
DW6
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Look at all you no skill gangbangin` dweebs whine...ROFLMFAO
This is the funniest ,so far.
Try to learn how to fly,you may get a kill
or two in a real, challenging A/C.
BTW you should have enough points from all your gangbang orgies to buy you Chog time for months to come.
And all you that has no idea what sense perking planes make ,just listen up..
AH 1.07 scenario:
Radar shows 15+ bogeys en route to HQ.
Someone types in radio,it`s 10 B17 ,with heavy escort.
What do I do?Choice #1:FW190 A8...good guns,no time to climb 25K,weak at high alt...next
#2:Me109G10...clims great,not enough ammo,escort mustangs have better performance at high alt,will get shot down quick...next
#3:Me262...fast as a mofo,4 X 30 mm cannons,
cost a sh*t lot of points.
well,I guess it`s time to use those points to fly a A/C the way it was meant.
Would I ever think of hopping in it,fly it over enemy territory and vulch for planes takin off ,runstang style?Nope ,that`s just too risky.
Got the hint?
Btw it will make bombertactics and teamwork even more important.
About you whiners braggin` about time ,I guess you never flew a 15 point sortie ,in a "less popular" plane.Getting points can be very quick ,if you understand how it works.
ps.
Perk the N1K too,just to see creamo`s rank fall back to 2400.
Next time bring 3 more of yer buddies to a duel,it was fun killing you punks both...
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Originally posted by J_A_B:
Those who truly like the F4U-1C are understandably upset. I can't blame them for complaining on these BB's--I would too in the same situation
They have the Historical F4U1D, the one massively used in the Pacific. If they love corsairs, they have one (and a very good one, BTW).
Those that "truly love" the Chog do it because they have proton torpedoes instead of cannons. Put them in a Dhog and see how much kills do they get.
And I bet that 80% of the people who is flying the Chog in the MA today just didnt knew that version before coming here. And the other 20% knew it because ,AFAIK, it was once modelled in Warbirds (and promply withdrawed from the planeset...how strange that this story is not exactly new, huh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) )
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 02-05-2001).]
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WAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!