Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Preon1 on July 19, 2004, 09:03:57 AM
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Just got done reading this article in the Los Angeles Times about a deserter and a traitor in the Korean War.
Jenkins disappeared across the Korean peninsula's demilitarized zone while on patrol in 1965 after telling other soldiers that he wanted to investigate a noise. Shortly afterward, he said over a loudspeaker that he had found a socialist paradise in North Korea. Over the years, he appeared in North Korea's anti-American propaganda.
Does the fact that he married a kidnapped Japanese girl or the fact that he didn't personally kill Americans make a difference? The article makes it sound like he might get off.
Los Angeles Times
July 19, 2004
Pg. 1
Risking Extradition, Ex-GI Goes To Japan
The alleged defector is ill and his wife is popular among Japanese, posing a dilemma for the U.S.
By Bruce Wallace, Times Staff Writer
TOKYO — Steadied by a cane and his wife's grip on an elbow, former U.S. Army Sgt. Charles Robert Jenkins stepped off a plane and onto Japanese soil Sunday, placing himself in the legal line of fire from an American government that has promised to prosecute him for allegedly defecting to North Korea almost 40 years ago.
Japanese authorities immediately whisked Jenkins, 64, to a Tokyo hospital, where he will undergo tests and possible treatment for an undisclosed abdominal illness. Washington has promised to postpone any extradition request for at least as long as Jenkins is under medical care.
The frail-looking former soldier flew to Tokyo from Indonesia, which, unlike Japan, has no extradition treaty with the United States. He and his two adult daughters spent an emotional, nine-day reunion in Indonesia with Jenkins' Japanese-born wife, Hitomi Soga, who was repatriated alone from North Korea in 2002.
His presence in Japan sharpens the diplomatic dilemma facing the Bush administration.
On one hand, Washington has made clear that it intends to seek custody of Jenkins, who disappeared across the Korean peninsula's demilitarized zone while on patrol in 1965 after telling other soldiers that he wanted to investigate a noise. Shortly afterward, he said over a loudspeaker that he had found a socialist paradise in North Korea. Over the years, he appeared in North Korea's anti-American propaganda.
The administration is unwilling to bend on punishing serious military crimes, especially while it has troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan.
On the other hand, the U.S. is also sensitive about stirring up anti-American resentment in Japan, its foremost ally in Asia and a country divided over its military participation with U.S.-led forces in postwar Iraq. Washington is wary of being seen as a villain in the Jenkins affair by tearing apart a family already scarred by a tragic history of separation.
There is an emotional clamor in Japan to allow Jenkins to stay, prompting the government to ask the Bush administration to waive extradition on humanitarian grounds.
Jenkins' apparently serious medical condition gives both sides a respite to try to finesse a compromise.
"The man is in terrible shape," U.S. Ambassador Howard H. Baker Jr. told reporters in Tokyo on Thursday. "His health circumstances are barely short of extreme."
Baker said Washington was in no hurry to demand custody of the alleged defector, though the administration insisted that Jenkins would eventually be charged.
But the two governments are clearly seeking a way out of the impasse. Last week, Baker met senior Japanese government officials, who later told local reporters the ambassador suggested that Jenkins offer a plea bargain. Baker also reportedly dismissed the possibility that the former soldier would face the death penalty if convicted of desertion and aiding the enemy.
The Japanese officials said they interpreted the remarks as Baker's personal opinion, not U.S. government policy.
Japan's concern is not so much for the fate of Jenkins, toward whom the public remains largely indifferent, as for the 45-year-old Soga, who has become a beloved figure over the last 22 months while struggling to bring her family together in her native land.
She is now the star of a real-life drama the Japanese media have portrayed as a tragic love story in search of a happy ending.
The country has taken Soga to its collective heart since learning the details of her life story. She was kidnapped by North Korean agents as a teenager in 1978 and taken to the communist country to teach Japanese to its spies. Her mother, who was shopping with Soga when she was snatched near her home on a northern Japanese island, has not been seen since — a fate Soga did not learn until her release.
Soga came home in 2002 with four others after North Korea confessed to Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi, at its first summit with a Japanese leader, that its agents had abducted Japanese citizens. The North Koreans allowed the five to leave with Koizumi at the time for a "visit" to Japan. None has returned.
By the time of her repatriation, Soga had been married to Jenkins for 22 years — he had been assigned in 1980 to teach her English — and the couple were raising two daughters. But Jenkins refused to leave North Korea, remaining behind with the children, fearful that he would be sent back to the U.S. to face the Cold War-era charges.
His wife's anguish has been on national display ever since. Newspapers published her poems of longing for her family; television showed her making hundreds of paper cranes to will her family home. Her family members "want to live in Japan," she declared, and the phrase became a national cry.
The media obsession is such that both Japanese national airline carriers offered to donate the aircraft and crew for Sunday's flight from Indonesia.
Soga has become the symbol of one of the most emotionally potent political issues in Japan: the true fate of eight — and possibly more — Japanese abductees who the North Koreans say are dead. On Sunday, Jenkins' two daughters, Mika, 21, and Belinda, 18, wore prominent blue ribbons on their blouses, the Japanese symbol of support for repatriating the "missing" abductees. The ribbons replaced the North Korean badges they had been wearing when they boarded the plane Sunday in the Indonesian capital, Jakarta.
Meanwhile, Hasan Wirajuda, Indonesia's foreign minister, who met Jenkins at a private governmental reception in Jakarta on Saturday, told reporters there that he appeared resigned to some form of U.S. military sanction for his actions.
"Mr. Jenkins said he was not so sure about his future," the foreign minister said. "But as head of his family, he would be happy to see his two daughters would be reunited with their mother, perhaps at the expense of what will happen to himself."
There is a widespread assumption that the U.S. military will insist on debriefing Jenkins to hear any insights into the North Korean regime and whether other American soldiers may have defected to or been kidnapped by the secretive state.
If so, like the Japanese public, they will have to wait a little longer for a resolution to the strange, four-decade saga.
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I don't know if there is a statute of limitations regarding desertion during a time of war and giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I doubt there is, but just do not know.
AFAIC this person was "adult" enough to defect to the enemy and then almost immediately aid them during the conflict. He should be "adult" enough to accept the consequenses of his actions. If he returns he should face up to it. Otherwise he should stay in his socialist paradise.
His wife and daughters had no choice, they were there not by their own actions. They should be allowed to go wherever they want.
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Don't worry, there'll be an episode of JAG or Law & Order soon that will work all this out for us so we understand the issue.
RIPPED FROM THE HEADLINES!
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If he comes to america throw him in jail. As long as he never sets foot on americian soil, They I dont think we should do anything to him.
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while theyre at it theres more than a couple of elected democrats from the seventies eighties and nineties that should be sharing a cell with him.
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Anonymous, when you equate the actions of politicians you disagree with right alongside actual treason, you cheapen the definition of treason.
That's like calling the teachers union 'terrorists', it's way over the top and kills your message.
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I wish that terrorists were more like the NEA-then nothing would ever get done, no matter how much money they got.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Anonymous, when you equate the actions of politicians you disagree with right alongside actual treason, you cheapen the definition of treason.
That's like calling the teachers union 'terrorists', it's way over the top and kills your message.
where did i say disagree? there are elected democrats who have commited treason against the us and never answered for it. keep in mind im not talking about your average dem or repub criminal. im talking about traitors.
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Who?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Who?
thrawn youre not american? no reason youd know of this then. do some reading on ron dellums. let me know what youd think if he was elected official of your nation and conducted himself in such a manner. pay close attention to his actions in seventies and eighties.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Who?
how about hazel oleary. clinton appointed SoE. declassified over ten million pages of nuclear data as a "protest against a bomb building culture". SoE job isnt to protest a damn thing. SoE responsible for nuclear security among other things.
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I don't believe the statute of limitations applies as he was charged 39 years ago. The problem is no one has gotten their hands on him to prosecute him. If I'm not mistaken (I'm no lawyer) the statue of limitations only refers to how long you can wait before charging someone with a crime. Since he's been charged it does not apply.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Anonymous, when you equate the actions of politicians you disagree with right alongside actual treason, you cheapen the definition of treason.
That's like calling the teachers union 'terrorists', it's way over the top and kills your message.
so you consider "actual treason" to be aiding the enemy in time of war. i agree. everyone who has ever lied to support cause of enemy of us should be charged with treason. ron dellums fonda reverend william sloane coffin cora weiss and many others all of them should be rounded up. this soldier derserted and aided enemy during cease fire. others mentioned acted as traitors at the height of a shooting war. glad youre with me on this.
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just let socialized medicine finish off what they started.
lazs
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Originally posted by MotorOil
I don't believe the statute of limitations applies as he was charged 39 years ago. The problem is no one has gotten their hands on him to prosecute him. If I'm not mistaken (I'm no lawyer) the statue of limitations only refers to how long you can wait before charging someone with a crime. Since he's been charged it does not apply.
my money says they are going to debrief him at length on north korea and call it even. not saying i like it but i admit im biased.
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Originally posted by lazs2
just let socialized medicine finish off what they started.
lazs
Nah, chances are much better that he'll get a better quality of healthcare in Japan than in the US.
The WHO ranks Japan with the 10th best healthcare system in the world and the US 37th.
;)
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Just shoot the old sonabich.. Or batter yet frame him as a US spy and send him back home to Dear leader Kim Jong Il and his gulags...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Just shoot the old sonabich.. Or batter yet frame him as a US spy and send him back home to Dear leader Kim Jong Il and his gulags...
shooting for desertion in time of war. death possible for treason but usually debrief is more common sense move if traitor is worth debriefing. by the book he should go to brig but past examples make me think they wont put him in brig. tough call. he bailed on his brothers in arms and to not punish is to insult every guy who did his duty at the cost of something important to him. but you let rosario ames go free after a couple of years and put this guy in jail for the rest of his life? glad it isnt my call to make.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Nah, chances are much better that he'll get a better quality of healthcare in Japan than in the US.
The WHO ranks Japan with the 10th best healthcare system in the world and the US 37th.
;)
The WHO are getting back together?? ALRIIIGGHHTT!!!
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The guy is guilty of desertion but not treason, technically at least imo. However, I don't think there is a statute of limitations on either.
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Hmmm.
From the US Constitution.
Article. III.
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Section. 3.
Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
Of course, I've heard some people argue that merely criticising the US President is giving aid and comfort to the US's enemies.
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adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
adhering to their Enemies,
I don't see what duct tape has to do with it, and a man's sex life shouldn't be anyone else's business.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Hmmm.
From the US Constitution.
Article. III.
...
Section. 3.
Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
Of course, I've heard some people argue that merely criticising the US President is giving aid and comfort to the US's enemies.
it isnt but it sould not be condones. when bullets are being launched you back the cic hes got more pressing matters. in fairness the actions of some elected republicans was reprehensible during kosovo for same reason. even if bills reasons for the actions were wrong the cause was right and people were in harms way. stfu and finish the fight. the longer the fight lasts the more people who get killed.
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I conceed the point. I missed the "adhering to their Enemies," part of the text.
Luckily funked was there to point out what a moron I am.
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Explanations for Dummies:
There is no statute of limitations for desertion.
Jenkins was declared a deserter after being absent from duty for more than 30 days and is technically still in the U.S. Army.
Desertion and treason are two different words with two different meanings. Notice that the word 'treason' has only been used by O'Club Dummies? Treason can only occur during a time of war and the U.S. was never in a declared state of war against North Korea.
The punishment for those found guilty of desertion can vary, depending on the case venue, from simple forfeiture of pay and a dishonorable discharge with a suspended prison sentence, to incarceration and dishonorable discharge.
The Jenkins situation is now more about diplomatic maneuvering than prosecutorial maneuvering.
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What Rolex said.
I've seen it many times in my 9 years of service.....
It ranges anywere from a 70 year old man that deserted 50 years ago and was dropped off by his family cause they cant care for him.....
to 40 year old guys that deserted....have new lives familys jobs that are just tired of running....or get caught.
I had to brig chase once for a 39 year old private for a couple of months. These guys usually dont do time they plead guilty and are discharged.
It may be a little different during a time of war were you actually desert to the enemy's side. This guys so old they will probably leave him alone
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What Rolex said.
I've seen it many times in my 9 years of service.....
It ranges anywere from a 70 year old man that deserted 50 years ago and was dropped off by his family cause they cant care for him.....
to 40 year old guys that deserted....have new lives familys jobs that are just tired of running....or get caught.
I had to brig chase once for a 39 year old private for a couple of months. These guys usually dont do time they plead guilty and are discharged.
It may be a little different during a time of war were you actually desert to the enemy's side. This guys so old they will probably leave him alone
that must have been some suckwad duty to have. by the way latest reports put your boy at over fifty. :)
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Originally posted by anonymous
that must have been some suckwad duty to have. by the way latest reports put your boy at over fifty. :)
Once you become an NCO in the Marines they automatically sign you up for brig chaser class (at least it seemed that way to me)
when I had to deal with the old guys I felt like a Mcdonalds manager being 30 years younger than my subordinate....was kinda weird.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Once you become an NCO in the Marines they automatically sign you up for brig chaser class (at least it seemed that way to me)
when I had to deal with the old guys I felt like a Mcdonalds manager being 30 years younger than my subordinate....was kinda weird.
the closest i ever came was working rtc while getting over some dings. was at rtc as dive motivator but when the kids would say "i wanna go home" four days after showing up for boot camp sometimes theyd use me to shame them if they thought it was a "first time away from home" case of shock. always figured usmc boot camp didnt have to deal with situations like that. best one was a kid claiming he was gay and at age nineteen he had three kids with three diff women. never figured out how in the hell he made it to boot camp. :)
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Originally posted by Maverick
... Otherwise he should stay in his socialist paradise.
You would deprive an old man his Social Security and other entitlements? How heartless.
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I don't believe that any statute of limitation applies to a major crime.
Ravs
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What I want to know: Is there a statue of limitations on being ignorant?
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Life sentence for you, Lizking!
j/k!
Ravs :)
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Art. 43 of the Uniform Code of Military justice
(a) A person charged with absence without leave or missing movement in time of war, or with any offense punishable by death, may be tried at any time without limitation.
***
(c) Periods in which the accused is absent without authority or fleeing from justice shall be excluded in computing the period of limitation prescribed in this section (article).
(d) Periods in which the accused was absent from territory in which the United States has the authority to apprehend him, or in the custody of civil authorities, or in the hands of the enemy, shall be excluded in computing the period of limitation prescribed in this article.
Seems like there is no limitations period. Note that the Supremes have not ruled that a statute of limitations is a necessary component of procedural due process.
However, this guy might be able to weasel some sort of "diminished capacity defense." Doubtful, though.
Note well that those subject to the UCMJ do not have the same Constitutional protections that civilians are afforded. Not exactly somthing that they advertise at recruiting stations.
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Oh and generally there is a five year statue on Federal Criminal stuff. However, the Feds rarely let that get in the way--and Congress pretty much has plenary control over the modification of limitation periods.
There is no limitations period for capitol crimes and some organized crime stuff (mostly drug related).
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Have we shot him yet?
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Hey Grunz! :)
All well?
Ravs
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UCMJ art. 85 (desertion)
(1) Completed or attempted desertion with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.
(2) Other cases of completed or attempted desertion.
(a) Terminated by apprehension. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 3 years.
(b) Terminated otherwise. Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 2 years.
(3) In time of war. Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.
Only shoot him during a time of war. Last "war" was WWII, Korea was a UN shindig--dont think they can cap him.
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SEND HIM TO GUANTANAMO BAY!
that will show him
Ravs
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Originally posted by jEEZY
Oh and generally there is a five year statue on Federal Criminal stuff. However, the Feds rarely let that get in the way--and Congress pretty much has plenary control over the modification of limitation periods.
There is no limitations period for capitol crimes and some
Reguardless.....if somone is charged w/ desertion it does not matter how long....he is basically a convicted felon after that.
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Hiya Gunsliger!
I don't get on the boards much since they installed a new bit of software in the office which now tells me, when I try to get here:
'You have been attempting to access a pornographic website - your attempt has been recorded' or some such.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Of course, I've heard some people argue that merely criticising the US President is giving aid and comfort to the US's enemies.
of course it could also be argued that even voting for Bush is giving aid and comfort to one of the biggest enemies of our country.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
of course it could also be argued that even voting for Bush is giving aid and comfort to one of the biggest enemies of our country.
really? id like to see someone argue that. what in your opinion makes the cic an enemy of the usa?
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of course, it could also be argued that taking polarised positions allows you make nonsense of what anyone is saying when you extend speech to absurdity.
Ravs
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Originally posted by anonymous
really? id like to see someone argue that. what in your opinion makes the cic an enemy of the usa?
putting us into an expensive war that has and will cost us billions of dollars and American lives, while providing no benefit to American citizens while making more enemies and helping to gather support for enemies we already have.
supporting legislation that is undermines the rights guaranteed by the constitution, and our the foundation to our very way of life.
his administration looking for loopholes around any part of the constitution that gets in the way of whatever plans they have for our money.
just for a start.
while I don't really feel he should be on trial for treason, I think his behavior is a lot closer to treasonous than those who speak out against his policies.
soldiers should Carry out their orders with out much question (other than is this a legal order), but it is not only the right but the responsibility of the rest of us to question how our soldiers (and anything that is done in our name) are used. to let our soldiers be sent to some mans personal war without doing our duty by demanding a reasonable explanation of why, is letting them down.
we trust them to risk their lives to defend us, they trust us to make sure their lives aren't wasted. those who don't speak out and oppose a war that has not been supported by any sort of a logical explanation are letting down the soldiers and really crappy citizens.
Bush hasn't given a reasonable explanation for this war, the intel it was based on was erroneous at best, fabricated at worst. anybody with their eyes open has seen this for at least 18 months or so.
if you think keeping your mouth shut and continuing to support the CIC in this situation makes you a better American than one who is out there protesting, then just keep waving that flag, wave it real close to your face and you might not even have to see some of the crap being done in your name.
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Excellent post, capt.
But the way I see it, for every US serviceman dying, it represents a potential life saving of lots of Iraqis if Saddam had still been in charge. So, yes it was worth it.
The coalition just have to see it through and win hearts and minds (which is really difficult). But the way I read our (biased) news, the Iraqis are getting shrecked off with their country being treated like an international 'get the coalition' battle ground.
There will come a time when Iraqis will shop all of those bastages who are wrecking a peaceful handover of power. Not for any major political reason, but because they'll be tired of seeing people dying on their streets everyday.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
Hiya Gunsliger!
I don't get on the boards much since they installed a new bit of software in the office which now tells me, when I try to get here:
'You have been attempting to access a pornographic website - your attempt has been recorded' or some such.
Ravs
Yup same here......If I try to access the forum it says this is "chat"
oh well at least the govt almost gets thier moneys worth out of me now.....actually my last EPR (enlisted performance report) was outstanding accros the board so maybe the smart filter was a good thing
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LOL! Well I'm doing a lot more work too, for the same reasons.
Gunslinger
Ravs
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ship him to iraq. he can go kick suspicious objects along the roads.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
putting us into an expensive war that has and will cost us billions of dollars and American lives, while providing no benefit to American citizens while making more enemies and helping to gather support for enemies we already have.
supporting legislation that is undermines the rights guaranteed by the constitution, and our the foundation to our very way of life.
his administration looking for loopholes around any part of the constitution that gets in the way of whatever plans they have for our money.
just for a start.
while I don't really feel he should be on trial for treason, I think his behavior is a lot closer to treasonous than those who speak out against his policies.
soldiers should Carry out their orders with out much question (other than is this a legal order), but it is not only the right but the responsibility of the rest of us to question how our soldiers (and anything that is done in our name) are used. to let our soldiers be sent to some mans personal war without doing our duty by demanding a reasonable explanation of why, is letting them down.
we trust them to risk their lives to defend us, they trust us to make sure their lives aren't wasted. those who don't speak out and oppose a war that has not been supported by any sort of a logical explanation are letting down the soldiers and really crappy citizens.
Bush hasn't given a reasonable explanation for this war, the intel it was based on was erroneous at best, fabricated at worst. anybody with their eyes open has seen this for at least 18 months or so.
if you think keeping your mouth shut and continuing to support the CIC in this situation makes you a better American than one who is out there protesting, then just keep waving that flag, wave it real close to your face and you might not even have to see some of the crap being done in your name.
wow that was dramatic. the cic put us into the war? doesnt congress have something to do with that as well? what legislation is undermining constitutional rights? have you read patriot act or do you just take left wing hate clubs word for what it is. "anybody with their eyes open"? i think you mean "anyone who swallows moveon.org whole and asks for seconds". erroneos or fabricated intel? are you talking about yellow cake from niger? kept up on that story? there were lies involved there for sure but it looks like it was your precious dem crusader wilson doing the lying. shocking i know. now tell me again what legislation undermines constitutional rights? and does the cic pass legislation alone?
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couple more questions. can you wage modern warfare effectively on the ground and have it not be expensive? do dems get volume discount on jdam kits or something? and costing american lives? whered you get the idea war can be waged without loss of life? making more enemies? who has become our enemy since taking down sadaam? are we talking nations here or are we losing the hearts and minds of the world one disgruntled arabic version of you at a time? you speak of right and responsibility of questioning what is being done. i agree. but this is not what is being done. there is a political war being waged and the bias is immense. when you have a dem presidential candidate that is unable to say to a camera that it is a good thing that hussein has been captured the partisan bullsheet has gone to far. youre not questioning sheet. youre hyping any news that can possibly be spun as defeatist and ignoring reality by refusing to acknolwedge any progress made because it wasnt made when your buttboy was cic.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Hmmm.
From the US Constitution.
Article. III.
...
Section. 3.
Clause 1: Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
Of course, I've heard some people argue that merely criticising the US President is giving aid and comfort to the US's enemies.
That does begin to call into question our use of the word 'treason'. I mean... how many people have been convicted of treason in our entire history? 10? The American traitors that I can think of off the top of my head (Benedict Arnold and John Walker Lindh) weren't even tried. Spies during the cold war were charged with espionage. Americans being held for giving aid to Al Qaeda cells in the US will likely be charged with terrorism.
What does it take to bring treason on the table?
If Lee Harvey Oswald had been paid by the Russians to kill JFK, would he be guilty of murder or treason?
If Wen Ho Lee gave the nuclear intelligence from Los Alamos to China, and they used it to attack Americans, would he be guilty of espionage or treason?
If Khalid Shaikh Mohammed were an American, would he be guilty of terrorism or treason?
Supposedly, there were 8 treason convictions in the US in the 20th century. I can only find info on one:
Tokyo Rose - American citizen made Japanese propaganda broadcasts to US troops during WWII.
How different is this than Jenkins' case? Gender? Declaration of war? Considering the point in our country's history: where no other nation in the world would oppose us militarily, does that mean that treason is off the table?