Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Halo on November 28, 2000, 09:58:00 PM
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Is it feasible to model fighter plane rear view mirrors in AH, e.g. in Spits? How effective were they in real planes like the Spit and Hurri and a few other British planes? Any other nations' fighters use rear view mirrors?
I recall fighter rear view mirror modeled in old Battle of Britain game for Atari way back when. Just checked WWII plane book and sure enough, all the Spit pics had the rear view mirror.
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that might only be for the spit-IA
not sure about that
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Rear view mirrors are one of those nice touches, but I guess it would really impact framerate.
(IRL they were pretty worthless, too many vibrations from what I've read.)
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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the current 6 view is already overly generous in its ability to check both left and right rear view at the same time.
the quarter views of the AH view system if tilted back another 10-15 degrees would be much more realistic in the way a pilot cleared their aircraft as it would still provide a direct 6 view but not the roadkill linda blair owl head 6 view.
this was impossible in combat in real fighters especially fighters like the f4u, spitfire, 109 and many others with wide rear fuselage bulkheads.
it was possible to look down one rear side of the aircraft or the other but not both at the same time.
it is physically impossible and totally unrealistic and it is one thing about AH that really annoys me because it is part of the reason why SA is so rediculously high in AH
mirrors were pretty ineffective do to massive vibrations as well in actual ww2 aircraft
the saying goes: "if you can see them in your mirror then its already to late. time to bail out"
but HTC will never fix it. they dont give a crap about realistic rear view situational awareness.
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I read an autobiography of a Candian Spit pilot in ww2. He ripped out the mirror in his spit V due to it being of little help.
AKSKurj
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HiTech already answered this about two to three weeks ago in here. Essentially there would be a very large FPS hit and there are other larger fish to fry at this time.
Do a ubb search on "mirror". You'll find the topic.
-Westy
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On the vibration thing... They did not vibrate, at least, not on the manly blue radial equipped planes. I have talked with people that still fly em. The R2800 was probably the smoothest engine in the war. I have never heard that vibration was a problem for any mirror except for the early 109. Also, the 190 lengthened it's motor mounts somewhere around the A5 to get rid of some vibration. Ask any pilot at an air show and they will tell you that the mirrors work just fine. A relative that flew Hellcats said that the mirror was quit usefull and worked about the same as one on a car. Not sure about the Spits... Reports differ.
If the view system is too generous it is too generous for all planes right? If that is the case then the ones that had mirrors are still being disadvantaged and should either have mirrors or an even better rear view than those who didn't.
Having said that.... After coming from the other sim I don't really feel too crapped on here by the AH views.
lazs
[This message has been edited by -lazs- (edited 11-29-2000).]
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Thanks for the info. Sorry I didn't do a search first, but didn't realize how good the search here is: outstanding.
I like the AH view system but just wondered about the rear view mirrors. The search added some more interesting info but I appreciate the responses here too.
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I can tell you i've spent countless hours staring into mirrors attached to airplanes trying to see a bogey on my short 6...
what i'm talking about is glider towing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But i can tell you .. if it's not for engine vibrations, air buffeting, turbulenze, etc will do the trick , i mean the field of view is VERY narrow and seeing a glider attached to your tail with a 30 yard rope can be dificult enough sometimes, i don't even dare to beliefe they were of any use to see a bogey on your long 6 saddling up for the kill ..
IMHO they were more used for formation flying and ground operations (yes it might be important what's behind you on the ground) than actually in combat (even tho i think it WAS possible to see guys like Hartmann in your mirror (usual kill distance under 50 yards) but i guess if you saw him you were dead anyaways (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
and here's a pic to comprehend.. th "target" is a LO100 aerobatic glider wingspan roughly 30 feet)
(http://members.aon.at/duckwing6/check6.JPG)
DW6
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DW6 666666666666666666666!"
Break right and I'll come up behind em (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Cool Duck, just for grins, ya ought to have the glider carry a paint ball gun, and see if he can hit you in critical areas of your fuselage! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Hey Bug!
I'd like to make an appointment with you....Could you call me?! My number is registed in your cell-phone....
Thanx
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322:
that might only be for the spit-IA
not sure about that
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I agree with Duckwing here. Though I've only tried that as the guy on the other end of the string, I know that you don't have to veer off very far before they tow driver loses sight of you.
We had a Socata Rallye towing for us for a while, which had a mirror on top of the canopy frame much like the ones shown in pics of spits and corsairs. With this mirror the tow pilot couldn't see me holding the wing of the glider, i.e. about 8m out from center, maybe 50m behind him, so we had to put another guy in front of the tow plane to repeat the wingholders' signals.
My conclusion is that if you can't see more than that in a mirror, why bother? You'll be dead by the time a con sneaks in that close anyway.
(http://hem.bredband.net/rickenbacker/images/ricksig.jpg)
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Damn girls now she find's me on the message board (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
That is off topic Bolletje
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I saw an interview with a Spitfire pilot and he was talking about the rear view mirror. Initially most Spitfire's were not equiped with mirrors so the pilots would take the rear view mirror out of a car, such as an Austin 7 and place it above the canopy. Eventually proper mirrors were installed which had a better fixing and better definition of rear view.
I can understand the big fps hit... shame really because I would love this facility being available at sometime (snap/instant views affect a condition I have so I have to use pan... which can be slow at times!!!).
Regards
'Nexx'
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I'm hoping some day too Nexx! IT may be when the average players cpu is 800mhz or higher and 64mb video cards are the norm.
-Westy
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guys.. the pic shows a pretty good view of the glider behind you. The Corsair had 3 or more mirrors and two of em were side view looking down the side from a buldged (just like a Spit) canopy. Certainly they would be no more useful than those found on your car but I don't think many would condem the mirrors on their car as being useless. I personally use my car mirrors but I turn around to look just to make sure. In a truck or van with no rear view I depend on the side view mirrors.
Another pertinent point is that, even if their usefullness for spotting planes might be limited.... they would still be very usefull when you allready knew that a plane was back there. You would know if/when you were extending away. Just like corsair and Hellcat pilots did against zekes in the Pacific.
lazs
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Lazs that glider is only 30 yards behind me ..
i can tell you that i have tryed very often to locate a plane the i just passed just to find out it's too small already by the time it enters the field of view of the mirror ..
also the pic shows the mirror pretty close .. that's about 3 times it's real size due to the zoom ..
We got pretty good 6 views here why put a frame rate hogging rear view mirror in in which you would see close to nothing (well 'xcept the icon.. and i can hear the whine about that already..)
DW6
[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 11-29-2000).]
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its a lost cause duckwng6.
most here already have their preconcieved notions about being able to see every aircraft in the sky with one passing glance. they even think that is realistic.
surely they understand how the human eyeball picks up long range tiny objects (the aces high equivelant of dots) with only a field of view the size of a quarter at arms length.
the big sky takes a while to scan. and it takes a lot more than a casual glance to pick up any small fighter sized aircraft. and if visibility is poor you wont see anything at long range.
the concept of mirrors offering to small a field of view to be usefull does not compute to the average computer flight simmer who thinks clearing turns are to much work to waddle wings or turn even 30 degrees to check your 6.
in fact to some of these people even ripping out your eyeballs and placing 1 on each side of the top front of the canopy frame facing backwards is totally realistic. with such eyeball configuration it should be easy to see around each side of the bulkhead to give a clear view of both sides of the horizontal stabilizer.
this is in fact what the current direct 6 lind blair view provides.
lost cause (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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guys... I'm pretty happy with the views in AH since I came from the other sim but... Face it... they would be useful to check on that con that you were extending away from. If you can't see a highway patrol car getting on to the freeway (or not) after you have passed him more than a quarter of a mile back...
As for the icons... If we got icons then we got icons. They would and should appear in a mirror just as they would in any view and for the same reasons.
claim that they would be too hard to do if you like but don't claim that they would be "useless" or vibrate too much.
lazs
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lazs have you ever even flown a real plane and looked for actual nearby aircraft?
do you think the 2d world of automobile driving and traffic spotting is the same as the 3d world of flying and traffic spotting?
you have a first hand acount from duckwng6 of how limited mirrors are in aircraft but dismiss it as if its nonsense.
lost cause (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mirrors might be useful if only to display a dot, like the planes appear when they are at long range, just to let you know someone is back there somewhere.
With the current view system, you can look fully backward with the touch of a button, even when pulling high Gs. And all of this takes less than a second.
Mirrors allowed a pilot to see his six by just looking up/left/right a bit and I believe were the type on the right of your car.. wide angle.. objects closer than they appear.
I flew at Air Combat USA last year and you better believe that turning to look over your shoulder while pulling 4-5 Gs is no easy venture. And like I said, since there is no G effects on how fast you can switch views, who needs a mirror? You would have to take up some of your forward view to see it, and if you had it as an alternate view, you might as well just use the six view the way it is.
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"Wing up, Get kills, Be happy"
Midnight
13th TAS
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punt