Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Hortlund on July 20, 2004, 12:47:10 PM
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I know this post will be a challenge for some of the attention-span impared forumdwellers..but it is an excellent observation.
Anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism are becoming linked and ever more rabid in today's Europe. They arise from a kind of blindness, combined with a strange mixture of alienation, guilt and fear toward both Israel and America.
Millions of Europeans resist seeing Israel as a country fighting for its survival. Israel cannot afford to lose one major war, as it would mean the end of the Jewish state. But huge numbers of Europeans believe that something is fundamentally wrong with the Israelis: they never compromise; they prefer using military means to solve political problems.
Something similar is behind the European attitude toward the US. Look at Europe, many Europeans say, we have eradicated wars, dangerous nationalism and dictatorships. We created a peaceful European Union. We do not wage war; we negotiate. We do not exhaust our resources on weapons. The rest of the planet should learn from us how to live together without terrorizing each other.
As a Swede, I have heard such pacific boasting all my life: that neutral Sweden is a moral superpower. Now this bragging has become the EU's ideology. We are the moral continent. Call this the "Swedenization" of Europe.
`Instead of supporting those who fight international terrorism, many Europeans try to blame the spread of terrorism on Israel and the US. This is a new European illusion.'
Yes, today's EU is a miracle for a continent where two modern totalitarian movements -- communism and Nazism -- unleashed rivers of blood. But what Europe forgets is how those ideologies were overcome. Without the US Army, Western Europe would not have been liberated in 1945. Without the Marshall Plan and NATO, it would not have taken off economically. Without the policy of containment under America's security umbrella, the Red Army would have strangled the dream of freedom in Eastern Europe, or brought European unity, but under a flag with red stars.
Western Europeans also forget that some areas of the world have never known freedom. In many places, torture chambers are the rules of the game, not the grotesque and shameful mistakes of ill-supervised troops. Any attempt in such places to go behave the European way and negotiate -- without the military power needed to back up diplomacy -- would be pathetic.
Instead of supporting those who fight international terrorism, many Europeans try to blame the spread of terrorism on Israel and the US. This is a new European illusion. Spain's latter day appeasement a la Munich arises from this thinking.
But what if Spain and Europe as a whole had reacted in the opposite way to the Madrid train bombing of April, saying: "We promise that because of that slaughter we will double our support for stabilization in Iraq by sending twice as many troops, experts, engineers, teachers, policemen, doctors and billions of euros in support of allied forces and their Iraqi co-workers." The triumph of terrorists would have been transformed into a triumph of the war on terror.
The images many Europeans hold of America and Israel create the political climate for some very ugly bias. You have the Great Satan and the Small Satan. America wants to dominate the world -- exactly the allegation made in traditional anti-Semitic rhetoric about the Jews. Indeed, modern anti-Zionist rhetoric portrays Israel's goal as domination of the Middle East. Such ideas are reflected in opinion polls in which Europeans claim that Israel and the US are the true dangers to world peace.
Ian Buruma, the British writer, claims that this European rage against America and Israel has to do with guilt and fear. The two world wars led to such catastrophic carnage that "never again" was interpreted as "welfare at home, non-intervention abroad." The problem with this concept is that it could only survive under the protection of American might.
Extreme anti-Americanism and anti-Zionism are actually merging. The so-called peace poster "Hitler Had Two Sons: Bush and Sharon," displayed in European anti-war rallies, combines trivialization of Nazism with demonization of both the victims of Nazism and those who defeated Nazism.
Much of this grows from a subconscious European guilt related to the Holocaust. Now the Holocaust's victims -- and their children and grandchildren -- are supposedly doing to others what was done to them. By equating the murderer and the victim, we wash our hands.
This pattern of anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism returns again and again. "The ugly Israeli" and "the ugly American" seem to be of the same family. "The ugly Jew" becomes the instrumental part of this defamation when so-called neoconservatives are blamed both for American militarism and Israeli brutalities and then selectively named: Wolfowitz, Perle, Abrams, Kristol, etc. This is a new version of the old myth that Jews rule the US.
Earlier this year, the editor of Die Zeit, Josef Joffe, put his finger on the issue: like Jews, Americans are said to be selfish and arrogant. Like Jews, they are in thrall to a fundamentalist religion that renders them self-righteous and dangerous. Like Jews, Americans are money-grubbing capitalists, for whom the highest value is the cash nexus. "America and Israel are the outsiders -- just as Jews have been all the way into the 21st century," Joffe says.
The links between anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism are all too real. Unless Europe's leaders roundly condemn this unholy triple alliance, it will poison Middle East politics and trans-Atlantic relations alike.
Per Ahlmark is a former deputy prime minister of Sweden.
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/06/17/2003175429
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Any particular reason why he's an EX Minister?
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Any particular reason why he's an EX Minister?
For speaking the truth? Some people with their heads in the sand hate the truth.
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Interesting post Hortlund, thanks.
Bullseye Rip.
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Interesting read Hort!
Thanks.
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Britain has no guilt over the Holocaust; you must be talking about your Europeans; not mine.
And in the self serving propaganda above it's forgotten that America not only stood idly by; but extented trade and comfort to the Fascists.
American might certainly made the end of WWII what it was; and undoubtedly laid the seeds of the peace which Europe is enjoying today. With out American help and involvement the map of Europe would look very different and without American help the lives of many; if not most Europeans would be fundamentaly different.
But let's not over do it; eh, Chaps?
The Americans sent less pilots to the Battle of Britain than even Poland.
America was dragged screaming and kicking into WWII (which is no bad thing; seen in isolation); is it neccesary to attempt to milk the truth for more than it's worth? Isn't the truth of the American contribution to the Allied effort; late as it was; more than massive enough to stand on it's own with out dubious embellishments?
America entered WWII (quite rightly) for it's own reasons; and did what it did (quite rightly) for it's own reasons; I see no reason for the current generation of Frenchmen growing up almost a centuary after to express any more explicit gratitude to America for their Liberation than I would expect a young Texan to thank the French for his Nation.
These things wear thin over time. That's just the way it is.
Like wise; while it's most certainly true that Europe survived Soviet incroachment in the cold war era thanks in very great part to the umbrella of American protection; part of the deal was an end to internecine aggresion within Europe. Borders were secured and guarenteed at the price of dropping old squabbles.
Now; Isreal has had more explicit demonstrations and guarentees of her continued existance by America
and the rest of the civilised world combined than any other Nation ever; yet still it plays Jewish persecution card at every turn.
America; in a politicaly correct terror of being seen as anti-semite, has long been seen as turning a blind eye to Isreali behaviour it would never have tolerated between Britain and France and has fundementaly failed to flex it's muscles in any way to convince Isreal that it is an National entity which is defined by guarenteed borders; not ethnicity.
A Zulu in 1980's Johanesburg had more hope for change in the future than a non-jewish Isreali in the 21'st centuary.
The attempt to link anti-Semitism; anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism is quite real. We should guard against it.
Luckily we're learning fast that's there's more semites than just the Jews; Zionism is Yiddish for Lebensraum and no matter how hard we tried we couldn't be any more anti-american than the average yank if we tried.
This thin attempt at repackaging "if you're not with us you're against us" rhetoric and condensing European sentiment into a simple "if you're not with us then you're a potential Fascist camp guard socialist anti-semite" , is it something you found on the Internet?
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great post hortulnd.
i have many thoughts like that, but cannot express them in text well, usually end up typing in circles getting frustrated i can not express my thoughts.
will spend more time tonight @ home looking into the source you posted.
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good reading, thanks hurtland.
that josef joffe ,ight be a relative of mine btw :)
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Great post Seeker.
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Good post Seeker.
I looked some writings of this Per Ahlmark and I gotta say he's not the most neutral person... I'd say he has quite narrow vision.
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Originally posted by Seeker
Britain has no guilt over the Holocaust; you must be talking about your Europeans; not mine.
And in the self serving propaganda above it's forgotten that America not only stood idly by; but extented trade and comfort to the Fascists.
American might certainly made the end of WWII what it was; and undoubtedly laid the seeds of the peace which Europe is enjoying today. With out American help and involvement the map of Europe would look very different and without American help the lives of many; if not most Europeans would be fundamentaly different.
But let's not over do it; eh, Chaps?
The Americans sent less pilots to the Battle of Britain than even Poland.
America was dragged screaming and kicking into WWII (which is no bad thing; seen in isolation); is it neccesary to attempt to milk the truth for more than it's worth? Isn't the truth of the American contribution to the Allied effort; late as it was; more than massive enough to stand on it's own with out dubious embellishments?
America entered WWII (quite rightly) for it's own reasons; and did what it did (quite rightly) for it's own reasons; I see no reason for the current generation of Frenchmen growing up almost a centuary after to express any more explicit gratitude to America for their Liberation than I would expect a young Texan to thank the French for his Nation.
These things wear thin over time. That's just the way it is.
Like wise; while it's most certainly true that Europe survived Soviet incroachment in the cold war era thanks in very great part to the umbrella of American protection; part of the deal was an end to internecine aggresion within Europe. Borders were secured and guarenteed at the price of dropping old squabbles.
Now; Isreal has had more explicit demonstrations and guarentees of her continued existance by America
and the rest of the civilised world combined than any other Nation ever; yet still it plays Jewish persecution card at every turn.
America; in a politicaly correct terror of being seen as anti-semite, has long been seen as turning a blind eye to Isreali behaviour it would never have tolerated between Britain and France and has fundementaly failed to flex it's muscles in any way to convince Isreal that it is an National entity which is defined by guarenteed borders; not ethnicity.
A Zulu in 1980's Johanesburg had more hope for change in the future than a non-jewish Isreali in the 21'st centuary.
The attempt to link anti-Semitism; anti-Zionism and anti-Americanism is quite real. We should guard against it.
Luckily we're learning fast that's there's more semites than just the Jews; Zionism is Yiddish for Lebensraum and no matter how hard we tried we couldn't be any more anti-american than the average yank if we tried.
This thin attempt at repackaging "if you're not with us you're against us" rhetoric and condensing European sentiment into a simple "if you're not with us then you're a potential Fascist camp guard socialist anti-semite" , is it something you found on the Internet?
Man what color is the sky in your world Seeker?
I don't recall the US sending lend-lease to Germany, or escorting
german shipping halfway across the Atlantic before entering the
war.
As far as the rest of it, the rise of anti-Americanism seems to
have dramatically risen after the fall of the USSR...amazing
coincidence there, huh?
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Originally posted by Maniac
Great post Seeker.
Yeah, great post:rolleyes:
The Americans sent
less pilots to defend the UK than Poland were at war with them> did.
Also apparently the Lend-Lease program was aiding Germany
as much as the UK as well. What a flaming crock.
As far as I can see, anti-Americanism increased dramatically
after the fall of the USSR, what an odd coincidence.
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WWII as an argument for present day issues is indeed well over used. It's dead and gone and we are now entering the 3rd generation after the war. time to move on, lesson learned.
what people forget is that that the peace-time europe is experiencing now is the result of about 1500 years of wars (if we only start counting it after the fall of the roman empire) including 2 of the most terrible wars in history. In Israel we are shedding blood for only 100 years or so. Give us 1000 years more and them check on us again... :p
The fact is that too many people do not make a difference between an Israeli and a Jew. That includes Swedes by the way - I have Jewish friends in sweden (born there) who can testify to that and had an unpleasant experiance there myself (though the guy recognized me as an Israeli and was definitly not a native swede. I have a very good guess about his faith too, but one case is not statistics).
If you measure a country's importance by media coverage, then Israel IS a super-power right there next to the US. I still can't belive that 7-8 million people fighting over a few kilometers of cursed, half-desert land attracts more foreign reporters than the entire african continent with it hundred and thousands dead per day - but nobody gives a $h!t about africans, we are much more interesting.
my suggestion is that Israel and the palestinians start charging money for every reporter who publishes a story about israel and split the money 50-50. This will really boost both our economies.
On a second thought, this money will most likely be used to get better weapons to kill each other, so forget I mentioned it.
Bozon
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Me and most norwegians disagree on distinct political issues when it comes America and indeed the conflict in Israel. Calling it anti-amercanism and anti-semitism is taking it out of all proportions and is just sad. If i say i dislike Bush and his ways then some always has to make that into anti-amercanism and call me a terrorist lover and whatnot. Why cant peole just see it for what it is and not make it into anything more?
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Hortland. Think the author hates woman too?
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Didn't Arnold call the Swedes "girley men"?
:D
Seriously though...equating anti-Americanism in Europe to anti-semitism is a strech, even in today's political climate. Kill a few million more Americans and get a long history of persecution, then..........maybe.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
... Why cant peole just see it for what it is and not make it into anything more?
likely because some weaker/frightened minds process information from an external source and internally form a mental image or understanding (which in some cases doesn't reflect the reality) and when someone comes along that challenges this internalized image with reality, the emotional conflict that arises is more easily displaced by making absurd assertions that serve only one purpose: to perpetuate and vaildidate this distorted perspective at all cost. It's the easiest thing to do.
When it becomes commonplace it is akin to 'mob mentality' or what psychology termed 'mass psychosis'.
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HORTLAND re; post
Thank you for the chance to read such an article. Yes seeker is right although we never stood by doing nothing,[ I wonder where seeker thinks the british recieved the food they ate, the materials for the war effort...ahh forget it]
We didnt do near as much as we could,there are 2 reasons for that.
1. America was never prepared for war much less a world war pre 1955,even the korean war. We had to gear up our selves plus we had to worry about japan.We as a nation could not believe Europe was going to do it again,it was impossible to believe.
2.Xtoronto,seeker,manic,nilsen.bozon,nash and others,YOU are the reason we didnt get in earlier, you are the reason we werent more prepared. Your views were the 2nd reason so many people died.Because of people just like you we were helpless to move faster. People with your views made up 2o plus percent of Americans,but added to the other 35 plus percent that didnt want to fight for europe again[btw I dont blame these people at all] our hands were tied.But now people with your veiws make up 40 plus percent of Amercia ,and make no mistake the blood will be on your hands.Europeans are a stiff necked people,and still very foolish if they believe europe is not heading for war...This time we wont be able to help out because we have to many people in this country that would stab us in the back.
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Originally posted by demaw1
HORTLAND re; post
Thank you for the chance to read such an article. Yes seeker is right although we never stood by doing nothing,[ I wonder where seeker thinks the british recieved the food they ate, the materials for the war effort...ahh forget it]
We didnt do near as much as we could,there are 2 reasons for that.
1. America was never prepared for war much less a world war pre 1955,even the korean war. We had to gear up our selves plus we had to worry about japan.We as a nation could not believe Europe was going to do it again,it was impossible to believe.
2.Xtoronto,seeker,manic,rino,nilsen.bozon,nash and others,YOU are the reason we didnt get in earlier, you are the reason we werent more prepared. Your views were the 2nd reason so many people died.Because of people just like you we were helpless to more faster. People with your views made up 2o plus percent of Americans,but added to the other 35 plus percent that didnt want to fight for europe again[btw I dont blame these people at all] our hands were tied.But now people with your veiws make up 40 plus percent of Amercia ,and make no mistake the blood will be on your hands.Europeans are a stiff necked people,and still very foolish if they believe europe is not heading for war...This time we wont be able to help out because we have to many people in this country that would stab us in the back.
Well I realize that you must have a point, I'm just baffled as
to what it is. I was born in 1962 and enlisted in 1981.
What exactly I did to cause our unpreparedness for conflict
escapes me at the present time.
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Originally posted by Rino
Well I realize that you must have a point, I'm just baffled as
to what it is. I was born in 1962 and enlisted in 1981.
What exactly I did to cause our unpreparedness for conflict
escapes me at the present time.
Rino, you are much more charitable than I. I am not sure demaw has a point. He didn't present anything that is even remotely coherent or lucid in that post.
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Rino re; point
I truly ask your forgiveness as I messed up and put you down when I meant staga. Sorry and thanks for bring it to my attention
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Xtoronto...re;..point
X if I was to bet, Id say you know what my point is.As I have said before, I believe you are well educated with book learning,maybe even elitist or on your way.
Just in case,Ill give you a challange that no one has yet to take up no matter how snotty they were about what I said.
If you can find 1 lie in what I have said I will post that Id lied.
If you can convince me I have misled or misrepresented something I will change it.
If I have resorted to name calling in a fit of flustration[ must be more than 1 word] I will ask forgiveness.
Now if you want me to explain something I will try but will not be successfull every time.
As far as coherent or lucid goes many people will understand what I am saying,therefore I cannot be responsible for what you think is or is not coherent.
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1 lie: demaw1 is NOt your real name.
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demaw, the paragraph in the above post that starts with '2', is difficult for me to understand. I can't follow what it is you are saying.
If you have the time, and you feel it is important please consider rewording your thoughts. I would be pleased to respond to you.
cheers, 'till tomorrow!
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Lizking re ; lie
Lizking you turkey you may be right, I will need to think on this a while. Must at least be a way to spin it.
Xtoronto ok I will try tomarrow good night.
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What disturbs me the most is the Americans that reads Hortlunds post and then take it as gospel...
Anti-Americanism have always been there, its djust now in the recent years that you have started to take notice, and actually care about what other nations think about you.
And this is indeed a good thing.
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Originally posted by demaw1
2.Xtoronto,seeker,manic,nilsen.bozon,nash and others,YOU are the reason we didnt get in earlier, you are the reason we werent more prepared. Your views were the 2nd reason so many people died.Because of people just like you we were helpless to move faster. People with your views made up 2o plus percent of Americans,but added to the other 35 plus percent that didnt want to fight for europe again[btw I dont blame these people at all] our hands were tied.But now people with your veiws make up 40 plus percent of Amercia ,and make no mistake the blood will be on your hands.Europeans are a stiff necked people,and still very foolish if they believe europe is not heading for war...This time we wont be able to help out because we have to many people in this country that would stab us in the back.
Oh... Im sorry then. I didnt know this cause i have no access to that kind of information, You should write a book and spread the truth to the rest of the world to enlighten it. Thank you for spreading you wisdom to us mere mortals.
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Originally posted by Maniac
What disturbs me the most is the Americans that reads Hortlunds post and then take it as gospel...
Anti-Americanism have always been there, its djust now in the recent years that you have started to take notice, and actually care about what other nations think about you.
And this is indeed a good thing.
When you anti-americans start using logic instead of emotion
to define your stance, then I'll start "caring" what you think.
Oh, and as a preemptive move, yes you are Maniac.
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When is this going to stop, I wonder...
One of you, just one of you raise your hand (virtualy) if you were in Europe during WWII, otherwise... you just owe to STFU.
BBS posters taking credit from people who actualy did things over 50 years ago ... how much more lame can you be?
Seeker has it right.
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I don't know about being proud to be Swedish, those words coming as they do from the biggest Euro-American wannabe on this BBS. You should move there Hortlund, really, your polarised and simplistic worldview would fit right in and I'd much rather you add your seed to the already dumbed down genepool of the american "new right" than stay here and propagate in a continent that you so plainly feel so uncomfortable in.
Tell you what, I'll put up £100 for your airfare on the condition you promise not to come back, ever.
Seeker, thanks for the dose of perspective, good post.
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Momus I dont agree much with Hortlund, but i did find your reply rather harsh and calling the american genepool "dumbed down" is abit over the top.
Anyways... have a nice day :)
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Read my post again Nilsen, I was referring to what I would term the "new right", adherents of which abound here. There are some fine "real" conservatives here, but they are a minority and Hortlund isn't one of them.
Hope that clears it up?
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Yes i do see what you mean, I just found your use of words abit harsh. I dont thin its their gene pool that is messed up, but their lack of knowledge on sertain matters. ;)
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Originally posted by Momus--
Euro-American wannabe
[/b]
Yeah...what is that exactly?
I remember about a year ago or something like that when another euro lost his mind a because I didnt join in the "USA is the root cause of all evil in human history"-choire that is so very common these days. Yes, Im talking about you Saw.
I do know that just like during the cold war, most euros are living under the protection of the Yankees right now, and they dont even know it. There is a war going on, and the enemy doesnt see us as Europeans or Americans, they just see us as "the enemy". If you have any doubt over this, I suggest a trip to Iraq. Walk around in Fallujah for a couple of hours and witness the protection your European passport will give you "but...but you guys dont understand, I hate America too" would be the last words broadcasted on Al Jazeera as another video of a westerner gettting his head sawn off hits the media.
Somehow you think that Al Quaeda only wants to fight the US and their allies. Not only is that mindnumbingly naive, it is also dangerous as hell.
Having said that, I have no intention of ever moving to the US. I love Sweden and I dont ever want to move. It is kinda symptomatic however, that as soon as one Euro-poster falls out of the pattern and says something pro-US he is bending over to take a US co*k in the bellybutton (Right Saw?) or he should move to the US immideately (presumably to be more easily identified as an enemy).
Maybe some day you guys will realize just how braindead you are, I dunno. I doubt it though.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Maybe some day you guys will realize just how braindead you are, I dunno. I doubt it though. [/B]
If you had just stopped using those kinds of statements all the time maybe someone would take you serious. Because someone does not agree with your view they are braindead? ....hmm
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Originally posted by Nilsen
If you had just stopped using those kinds of statements all the time maybe someone would take you serious. Because someone does not agree with your view they are braindead? ....hmm
Braindead as in "he agrees with teh US he is the enemy and should move there" or "he agrees with the US, he is bending over and taking it in the a**"
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Yeah, i know what you mean. However.. as a lawyer you prolly know that calling people names etc is not the best way to win arguments. It is usually a sign of someone running out of clever things to say. Not sayng that you do, but i think you know very well what i mean. you are not the only one, and both "sides" have resorted to this kind of "discussion techniques" here. The next step after resorting to namcalling is adding people to their ignore list.
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I djust got two things to say :
Where is the WMD?
Are you Americans still content with having your CiC lying to you?
I mean, if we really were America haters then we would shove this two arguments above down your throats daily.
You know what? we dont.
Hey i even wore a shirt today that had the print "Yankee" on it! imagine that!
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Maniac
Where is the WMD?
BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3722255.stm
CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/25/iraq.main/
ABC:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1115960.htm
MSNBC:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5060648/
FOX:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120268,00.html
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5 links to one finding?
So the US went to Iraq to disarm saddam from that last shell then?
WTG! mission accomplished..
:rofl
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I figured maybe 5 links would be enough for you to stop that old "no WMD has been found"-lie. Its starting to sound like a broken record.
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So how many people could that shell kill?
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If detonated correctly in a confined place like Madison Square Garden, maybe 500-1000, but that is a very conservative estimate.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
I figured maybe 5 links would be enough for you to stop that old "no WMD has been found"-lie. Its starting to sound like a broken record.
15 links to the same exact find might be enough to convince some..
Watch for flame here among the straw.. Infact, this straw is becoming so rotten it could burst into flame from spontaneous combustion at any time..
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Originally posted by Hortlund
If detonated correctly in a confined place like Madison Square Garden, maybe 500-1000, but that is a very conservative estimate.
ROTFL, a good one Hortlund!!!
:)
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Originally posted by bozon
WWII as an argument for present day issues is indeed well over used. It's dead and gone and we are now entering the 3rd generation after the war. time to move on, lesson learned.
what people forget is that that the peace-time europe is experiencing now is the result of about 1500 years of wars (if we only start counting it after the fall of the roman empire) including 2 of the most terrible wars in history. In Israel we are shedding blood for only 100 years or so. Give us 1000 years more and them check on us again... :p
The fact is that too many people do not make a difference between an Israeli and a Jew. That includes Swedes by the way - I have Jewish friends in sweden (born there) who can testify to that and had an unpleasant experiance there myself (though the guy recognized me as an Israeli and was definitly not a native swede. I have a very good guess about his faith too, but one case is not statistics).
If you measure a country's importance by media coverage, then Israel IS a super-power right there next to the US. I still can't belive that 7-8 million people fighting over a few kilometers of cursed, half-desert land attracts more foreign reporters than the entire african continent with it hundred and thousands dead per day - but nobody gives a $h!t about africans, we are much more interesting.
my suggestion is that Israel and the palestinians start charging money for every reporter who publishes a story about israel and split the money 50-50. This will really boost both our economies.
On a second thought, this money will most likely be used to get better weapons to kill each other, so forget I mentioned it.
Bozon
I LIKE this man !!!! :)
.......
No, NOT in THAT way, Dowding!!!
:D
........
Very nice post Seeker,
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Are even americans saying that shell somehow undestroyed when 10s of thousands where destroyed justifies Iraq as having MWD? The truck that was sent to destroy it was bombed by a southern watch F18 and never made it there.lol
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Very good post bozon, never tought about it that way.
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Originally posted by Naso
ROTFL, a good one Hortlund!!!
:)
The artillery shell contained 3-4 litres of Sarin. From the looks of your post you either didnt know that, or you dont understand what Sarin is.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Are even americans saying that shell somehow undestroyed when 10s of thousands where destroyed justifies Iraq as having MWD? The truck that was sent to destroy it was bombed by a southern watch F18 and never made it there.lol
The thing is that the definition of WMD is not up for discussion. This is really very simple.
The UN has stated that N, B or C = WMD. You can find this in UNSC resolution 687.
Sarin = C, ergo Sarin = WMD.
This is an objective fact. It is not up for discussion. Period.
I see that many people think there is another interpretation of WMD, something along the lines of WMD = justification for war. Then they apply this definition of WMD and apply it on the shells and rockets with Sarin that has been found in Iraq and they dont see the justification for war.
This part however is a subjective opinion.
"When have we found enough justification for war" is completely unrelated to "have we found WMDs in Iraq".
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Anti-americanism? what about Anti-Europeanism? far more widespread imho.
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-edit-
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cc nilsen...thx!
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np :)
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World war two is dead and gone...Dear God how I wish we would have stayed out of that war.
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Originally posted by demaw1
World war two is dead and gone...Dear God how I wish we would have stayed out of that war.
I bet all countries wished that
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Here I saw a nice one
"The Americans sent less pilots to the Battle of Britain than even Poland. "
They didn't send pilots. They had their own initiative to join and went through Canada mostly.
Oh, they found Sarin in Iraq, right?
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Oh, they found Sarin in Iraq, right?
Did they find the WMD´s they were after? or was it this 155Ml that was the big threat al along?
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Originally posted by Maniac
Did they find the WMD´s they were after?
Well, they have found one of them. Or 19 of them to be exact.