General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Simaril on July 20, 2004, 09:40:02 PM
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Simaril on July 20, 2004, 09:40:02 PM
Hate seeing all those La-7s, ponies, Nikis, and Spit IX’s? Tired of watching unaggressive dweebs run, or unskilled spit pilots drop from high altitudes onto your 6? Who isn’t?
There’s a very good reason there are so many in the MA, though. It takes a surprising amount of skill to move past these mounts. When I first started AH, I couldn’t stay alive in the Yak I wanted to learn. After a while, I tried the spit with the same results. By my third month, I could do OK in the Pony and the La-7, but it was only after I passed the median – about 1500 fighter rank out of the 3000 or so who get ranks every month – that I successfully moved to a “real” plane. My KPD in the Dora is now somewhat better than the average for that plane, and I’m getting better bit by bit.
Until I reached that point, I couldn’t leave the despised quartet without being a flaming chunk of aluminum. I really believe that’s the main reason we see those dweeb planes so much – people just want to play, and their skills haven’t progressed to the point that other planes are feasible. And, if my experience is typical, it takes passing the midline to get past the quartet. That means that about half the players in the main arena are gonna feel bound to the easy planes.
So how best to deal with the situation? Seems obvious for me.
When we see players with ranks above 1500, we ought to take them under our “wings.” Give your lower ranked squaddies a tip each day. Tell them about that reversal, or explain energy concepts. Give them recorded flights. When a newbie question pops up on 200, don’t mock the guy – answer the question, and private channel an offer to meet in the TA for a half hour. You can’t rely on the BBS, or the help files, or the training corps. Realistically, those resources will only be used for by a few – and bottom line is that their valiant efforts have still left half the MA pilots below the vets’ desired standard.
It may sound like a bit of a hassle, but remember the payoff – FEWER DWEEB PLANES. This is for you, oft complaining vets. Rolling planesets aren’t gonna happen, and you wont see the easy planes perked in you lifetime. The best way to see them gone is to care enough to teach, teach, teach.
You can complain about the status quo, or you can make a difference. So what are you going to do?
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Wadke on July 20, 2004, 10:10:51 PM
rank means nothing...maybe i can teach levi though...his rank is bad :D
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: JB73 on July 20, 2004, 10:17:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Wadke rank means nothing...maybe i can teach levi though...his rank is bad :D
teach what you no skillz hack dweeb???
hehehhee
Title: LOL @ Wadke
Post by: RedTop on July 20, 2004, 10:22:18 PM
I was just thinking that same thing..Him and that SPIT DWEEB RIDE....MAYBE...JUST MAYBE we could learn to fly the oh so mighty Luft Wobble planes...And learn to play the Game the way the FEW , THE PROUD , THE WANNABE LUFTWOBBLE brigade wants us to fly. I mean...Why should I fly my favorite ride of WW2 (The DWEEB SPIT V) and have any friggin fun at all. Lord knows I suck..Cant hit nothing..My plane is UBER and has WAY TO MANY ROUNDS of ammo in it. Its MAYBE the fastest plane in the game. Can Run from any mere 262. It's AWSOME and I do mean AWSOME UBERNESS is something that all in the flight sim world should really fear. It is the plane of choice for all NO SKILLED DWEEDY COULDNT KILL NOTHING IF YOU DIDNT HAVE A CRUTCH RIDE types in Aces High.:rolleyes:
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Morpheus on July 20, 2004, 10:25:36 PM
Get what?
wtf?
Can someone please tell me what is going on here???
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: nopoop on July 20, 2004, 10:30:04 PM
The fire has to be there. It's either there, or it isn't.
How hot the fire burns defines how far you take it, regardless of natural ability.
That can't be taught. If a new guy has the wanna, he'll find the way. He'll take it to the limit of his natural abilities.
You can't teach "wanna". And by the same token, if a pilot has "wanna", he'll find a way..
Did this post have to many W's ???
Title: Re: LOL @ Wadke
Post by: xBarrelx on July 20, 2004, 10:32:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by RedTop I was just thinking that same thing..Him and that SPIT DWEEB RIDE....MAYBE...JUST MAYBE we could learn to fly the oh so mighty Luft Wobble planes...And learn to play the Game the way the FEW , THE PROUD , THE WANNABE LUFTWOBBLE brigade wants us to fly. I mean...Why should I fly my favorite ride of WW2 (The DWEEB SPIT V) and have any friggin fun at all. Lord knows I suck..Cant hit nothing..My plane is UBER and has WAY TO MANY ROUNDS of ammo in it. Its MAYBE the fastest plane in the game. Can Run from any mere 262. It's AWSOME and I do mean AWSOME UBERNESS is something that all in the flight sim world should really fear. It is the plane of choice for all NO SKILLED DWEEDY COULDNT KILL NOTHING IF YOU DIDNT HAVE A CRUTCH RIDE types in Aces High.:rolleyes:
lmao!!!!!!!!
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: DipStick on July 20, 2004, 10:43:17 PM
I like the concept of helping newbies, I've always tried to help as best I can.
Rank means nothing, it's in no way indicative of skill.
Teach them to fight though. Teach them some ACM not how to fly timid and run. I've only seen 2-3 guys that will actually fight in run90s, 51s, etc... most make one joke of a pass extend to 5-6k and repeat. How boring can it get?
90% of the heros in 51s, la7s and 90s fly timid and run at the 1st sign of not having a huge alt/e/#s advantage. That's the worst part of this game.
What you fly or what your ranked don't mean squat. It's how you fly and fight that makes for a good fight and a win or lose or...
PS... nopoop one more wanna and I'm gonna sick Wadke on you!
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Urchin on July 20, 2004, 11:16:08 PM
See, the problem with that is you get some guy that goes "Wow, that was great, how did you do that!? Can you show me?".
I've never said no yet.
Then you go in the DA, or the TA, and you try to show them what you did, but they don't even get the very basics.
I.E. Make sure you are comfortable with your view setup so you NEVER lose sight of your opponent (this one is breakable once you know what you opponent is going to do anyway).
Absolutely no concept of how airspeed effects turning radius, etc.
I'd dearly love to "show people how to fight" in "atypical" planes. The problem is they have to WANT to know how to fight.
Most people get to the stage where they do one of two things.
Fly a P-51/La-7 and bore n zoom. Eventually, when they get to where they open fire at super long range, and then carefully break away from the target to zoom up 4 miles for their next strafing pass, they are considered "aces".
Or
Fly a Niki/Spit9 (or a spit 5 once they discover the Spit 5 turns better than the Spit 9), and simply turn in one direction until friends get there or the other guy gets bored and leaves.
You can "angles fight" in a 190. It is completely different from angles fighting in a Spit or a Niki. You almost literally can't learn how to "fight" in a 190 (or F4U or P47 or anything similar, even a P51 for that matter) if you stay in a Spit/Nik.
Learning how to fight that way is hard. You die a lot until you get your timing and your aim down. People don't like dying, so people would much rather stay in a plane that does most of the work for them.
When I first started playing this game, you could actually recognize people by A. what plane they were in, and B. how they were fighting. Anyone remember Hblair and his 109? I used to look at Hblair and say "I'm gonna be as good as him some day".
I don't know if it is the larger population or if the population in general is just more timid and lazy than they used to be in the "golden days" (as I see em anyway).
When I first started playing, there were "up and comers" like me who picked a plane, picked a mentor, and learned how to fight. Most of us decided to avoid the C-Hog since that was considered todays "La-7/Spit/Nik/P-51" (all that in one plane too.. it actually wasn't quite that good).
At present, it seems newbies log in and say "Wuts da best plane?" and people say "Spit/Nik or La-7/P-51".. and away they go.
I don't know if the turn-over is simply so high that we see different newbies in the same planes, flying the exact same way, or if we see the same newbies still flying the same plane the exact same way after months or years of playing... but it seems like the MA is stagnant.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Simaril on July 20, 2004, 11:38:09 PM
I guess that stagnancy is my point. I think a lot of the bottom half of the skill pile (I used rank as an easy marker, but I know that's not reliable) gets frustrated and quits. Some of them are first person shooter types, or arcade/action lovers, and the simulation approach just isnt gonna get into their guts no matter what we do. But others are potential long term players who give up over the learning curve.
I've loved ww2 planes for decades. I never could beat the boxed sims down on my own, in retrospect because I didnt understand energy concepts. My fascination with aviation history made me more motivated to make AH work than many newbies.
Even as I learned those concepts -- trying to get throught Shaw's book, seeking help in the TA and from the training squad guys (who were all great), setting up appointments with the advanced trainers -- I still found myself getting very frustrated. I almost quit several times, and i probably wouldn't still be in if it weren't for my brother's encouragement to hang in there. There are many like me, I'm sure.
There are a lot of intangibles in learning acm, no doubt. There are som many variables that its very hard to do, and very hard to teach well. Many don't get the concepts -- but some will.
The point of my post, and the exchange I was sure would follow, was to stimulate interest in catching the potential long term players who are getting lost. Trying to teach losers is part of the price, but the rewards -- larger player base, fewer dweeb planes, more challenging opponents -- ahs to be worth it.
How can we better retain players and improve their skills? For every one who asks, I'll bet there are 5 who won't ask, or who ask unhelpful people, or who don't know enough to even pick the right question.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: J_A_B on July 20, 2004, 11:59:40 PM
I still remember how Torque could fly that F4U-1C so well he could whip it around without even seeming like he was turning and hose you down with 20mm's before you even knew he was pointed at you.
But people leave, new people appear, and the newbs of one generation become the vets of the next. Such is the nature of flightsim communities. We're fortunate, in a way, that our community is small enough to be able to rememer players from as far back as the 1980's and still respect them; how many people remember FPS players from even 3 years ago (for those of you who also play FPS's)?
J_A_B
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: LYNX on July 21, 2004, 12:01:17 AM
I agree with the wanna statement made above. I think those of long standing here and in other sims had the "Wanna". We got our arses shot off but said "How the **** did he do that?". Then off we went down the addiction slope lol. They will do likewise.:aok
Title: Re: LOL @ Wadke
Post by: Misfit on July 21, 2004, 12:35:00 AM
:aok
Nevermind
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 21, 2004, 01:03:15 AM
Quote
When we see players with ranks above 1500, we ought to take them under our “wings.”
hmm...my rank is averaging around 1650, just looked for this thread. I also have finished in the top 100 numerous times...Rank has no bearing at all. Some flyers ranked in the 2000 range can still hand you your rearend if they want too.. as nopoop put it, you got to have the desire/drive/wanna to learn everything you can...and it takes months/years/decades to get there depending on how far you take it. The majority just want to make score, get points, shoot things, they will eventually move on to the better/funner points of flight sims. If anyone ask me or ask on open or country channel, I do my best to help them. I frown upon other and speak up if I see someone being a jerk to a new player.
Quote
You can’t rely on the BBS, or the help files, or the training corps. Realistically, those resources will only be used for by a few – and bottom line is that their valiant efforts have still left half the MA pilots below the vets’ desired standard.
It would do alot of good if Aces High had a news letter of somesort, where it mailed an autoemail to all subscribers , and list tips, maybe who did what in what event, who won KOTH that month, a link to check out the Aces high BBS.
tonight I along with 3 other Trainers was in the TA. out of a steady 11 to 17 people in there maybe 3 asked for help or had a question. This varies, sometimes it is real busy.
As for your opinion of what the vets desired standard of flying is, well I can asure you alot more in the Main arena would surely be flooding the Training Arena if HTC decided to cut the ability to score a HO or near HO shot down to say 10% chance. then these flyers that people are whining about would have to quit or learn how to actually do BFMs and combine it into ACM to learn how to shoot a bogey down. It is too easy for them now to take a 50/50 chance at a joust every time they rev. Most vets can avoid the joust and defeat them, but to the vets this becomes boring.
hmm.. I am on a rant...my apology:D
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Dead Man Flying on July 21, 2004, 01:25:39 AM
Wait... does this mean that rank... does not matter?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Seeker on July 21, 2004, 01:32:04 AM
AWTC.
Now more than ever.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Xargos on July 21, 2004, 02:38:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying Wait... does this mean that rank... does not matter?
-- Todd/Leviathn
It only matters if you like hiding CV's...lol.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: ZAMO on July 21, 2004, 02:43:54 AM
lol Its all so relative........
Some of my best pilots list are high ranked....ummmm Taki......Furball....etc I have fought against them and I always had a blast. Some others high ranked are rook and I never fought against them. I couldnt tell.
Some of my best pilots list arent high ranked....ummmm Greebo, Nelcan, Wingzero, DmnCoach...etc etc.
So I cant tell rank means nothing...at least...half of them are very good for me.
Another thing is that I have never understood the definition of "dweeb plane". I guess it has been said here lots of time by people. Its not about the plane...its about the man.
Some people are the best with 190s.....dweebs?
Some people are the best with spits...dweebs?
Some people are the best with P51......dweebs?
Some peolple are very good with spits, 190s, F6F..whatever.
Some people are very good at rtb with lots of kills, even from outnumbered situations....cherry pickers? gangbangers? vulquers?....is 1/3 of the population able to do that if they would try to? hehe
Some people fly an SPIT or a La7 and they fly at 5 k waiting to be attacked by 3 higher enemies all at once...this man kill them all....SPITDWEEB?? LOL
Some people talk more than they kill (lately me)
Some people kill more than they talk
Some guys are excellent at looking at STATS players and they can guess if the pilot sucks or not !!!!!!! or they way he fights!!! just looking at his stats LOL.
For me the bottom line is: quit of the arena all those "dweeb planes" and you will have the same "level of dweebery".
If I see a high ranked pilot in the arena..i give him a 90% he is a hot stick.
If I see a not high ranked pilot in the arena...i give him a 70 % he is a hot stick
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Stang on July 21, 2004, 03:06:55 AM
I can tell when I'm up against certain players. Wadke smells so bad it's blatantly obvious it is him, especially when he adds the P40 to the mix. Damn that thing blows up nicely :D
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: 4ACES on July 21, 2004, 05:01:53 AM
This game has been and always will be about advantage.. and how you use it. When there is equal pilot skill involved the fight boils down to who has the advantage.. People complain about the boom & zoom planes (51,LA7,D9,typhoon) and they complain about the uber dweeb planes/turners (niki, spit) but the fact of the matter is if you don't fly these planes to there advantage you are a pretty easy kill most times.. skill being equal.
There is just a lot of complaining about the way the opposition flys and in some cases the pilot is just flying smart and using what advantages he has. A lot of people calls this being timid (being nice here) but patience is also part of SA.
Just no way to make everyone happy... So like what you fly,,, use it to its advantages and leave the complaining to the opposition you left smoking behind you.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Nilsen on July 21, 2004, 05:20:41 AM
Ive been ranked as nr2 at the end of the month one time .........for the competition :D
It doesnt mean that im better than those ranked much lower, but its more because i like all aspects of the game including bombing, gv's and all that. A guy that only runs around in a fighter can be 10 times better than me at dogfighting but the overall rank wont show that.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Simaril on July 21, 2004, 06:24:01 AM
Quote
Originally posted by 4ACES This game has been and always will be about advantage.. and how you use it. When there is equal pilot skill involved the fight boils down to who has the advantage.. People complain about the boom & zoom planes (51,LA7,D9,typhoon) and they complain about the uber dweeb planes/turners (niki, spit) but the fact of the matter is if you don't fly these planes to there advantage you are a pretty easy kill most times.. skill being equal.
There is just a lot of complaining about the way the opposition flys and in some cases the pilot is just flying smart and using what advantages he has. A lot of people calls this being timid (being nice here) but patience is also part of SA.
Just no way to make everyone happy... So like what you fly,,, use it to its advantages and leave the complaining to the opposition you left smoking behind you.
Completely agree -- and all those times somebody in a Spit whines about the "unaggressive" way I'm using my high wing loaded 190 make me want to stop and hold a seminar.
I guess I'm saying more people would stay in AH if they knew better how to use their mounts properly.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Simaril on July 21, 2004, 06:26:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Nilsen
It doesnt mean that im better than those ranked much lower, but its more because i like all aspects of the game including bombing, gv's and all that. A guy that only runs around in a fighter can be 10 times better than me at dogfighting but the overall rank wont show that.
Guys, please don't let my reference to rank sidetrack this thread. I only used rank as a marker for my progress-- apparently a bad choice.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Ghosth on July 21, 2004, 08:11:37 AM
What it all boils down to in the end is this.
The first rule of Aces High.
"Don't tell someone else how to play HIS game, its his 15$ a month"
Its amazing how many people don't get this.
Its HIS money, if he wants to fly a spit its his RIGHT!
So called "Dweeb" planes are not planes that are necessarily that easy to fly. Its planes that are that HARD to kill. Its FEAR talking, trying to label them, stick them in a box, make them fly something else that they THINK they can kill easier.
There is NOTHING I fear worse than a spit 5k above me. Doesn't matter what I'm in, if he plays his altitude cards right I'm dead.
So everytime you hear someone say "dweeb" plane, laugh. Cause they are obviously afraid, and your not.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Nilsen on July 21, 2004, 08:16:43 AM
the only pilots in MA i "fear" are the once low and slow in crap planes that says over channel1 "please dont attack me, i suck and have no ammo and plenty of damage" :p
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: xBarrelx on July 21, 2004, 08:36:53 AM
"Don't tell someone else how to play HIS game, its his 15$ a month"
I try to say this everytime I see a whine. You just can't mount an argument against it :D
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Zwerg on July 21, 2004, 11:52:17 AM
Quote
Originally posted by ZAMO lol Its all so relative........ [...] Another thing is that I have never understood the definition of "dweeb plane". I guess it has been said here lots of time by people. Its not about the plane...its about the man. [...]
I agree. But I would call it the virtual man (player & hardware & software & setup & connection, what else?) It's all so relative... ;)
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Misfit on July 21, 2004, 12:27:50 PM
Rank has 1 advantage for a luft pilot.
When you want to go see your stats and dont feel like typing your name and your in the top 100 then all you have to do is click on your name and >POOF< there are your stats:p
best thing i could come up with....................................
I personally wish they would do away with rank.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Drex on July 21, 2004, 12:40:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying Wait... does this mean that rank... does not matter?
-- Todd/Leviathn
It does matter, silly suck.
Drex
Title: WADKE
Post by: TalonX on July 21, 2004, 12:41:08 PM
Wadke could kick my butt any day of the week.
Let me check the files... Hmm.. TalonX 2 Wadke 0.
This is why rank means nothing. THIS GAME IS PURE LUCK!
Wadke
:aok
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: simshell on July 21, 2004, 01:28:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth What it all boils down to in the end is this.
The first rule of Aces High.
"Don't tell someone else how to play HIS game, its his 15$ a month"
Its amazing how many people don't get this.
Its HIS money, if he wants to fly a spit its his RIGHT!
So called "Dweeb" planes are not planes that are necessarily that easy to fly. Its planes that are that HARD to kill. Its FEAR talking, trying to label them, stick them in a box, make them fly something else that they THINK they can kill easier.
There is NOTHING I fear worse than a spit 5k above me. Doesn't matter what I'm in, if he plays his altitude cards right I'm dead.
So everytime you hear someone say "dweeb" plane, laugh. Cause they are obviously afraid, and your not.
GIVE ME MY ME262 TEMPEST WITHOUT PERKS WHEN EVER I WANT ITS MY 15$ WHAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
here is a nice list for people that dont want to fly the big5 but still want a good chance
.205 LA5 P47D-40 or anyother model F4U-any model F6F F4F for the spits 190A-5 190a-8 KI-61 P51B 109f-4 109g-2 109g-6 Mossie not good to HO with it its a lighter and its a big target YAK U or T
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: BUG_EAF322 on July 21, 2004, 01:36:50 PM
i had a good fight lately with another yak 1 on 1 . He even had some alt advantage.
finaly i killed the yak it wasn't easy. (microscopic litle plane compared to a big P38)
than i looked at his rank and he was a nr 2.
:D
mine rank between about 300-400
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Fruda on July 21, 2004, 03:43:21 PM
I actually like doing a mid-alt (7k feet) drop onto enemies and doing a series of passes in the 109 series. I usually take little damage that way, and I managed to land 4 victories (with almost 20 points) in a 109E4 that way.
My mount is currently the 109G6 with gondola cannons attached, along with the 30mm single cannon. The run and gun technique works wonders on low La-7's and N1K's, as well as your token Spitfires.
I really don't see what your problem is. It's easy to get past these wimps who fly low N1K's and La-7's if you use the planes the way they were meant to be used (no turn fighting with the Fw series, please). Furballing isn't everything, you know.
Just because you like turn fighting doesn't mean that every one else has to.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Mugzeee on July 21, 2004, 04:23:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin I don't know if the turn-over is simply so high that we see different newbies in the same planes, flying the exact same way, or if we see the same newbies still flying the same plane the exact same way after months or years of playing... but it seems like the MA is stagnant.
First i will sat Thanks to Urchin for teaching me some stuff a while back. Secondly...after some thought. I think a lot more of us would be willing to fight nearly any other plane as long as it was a 1v1. Example of this was last night. I was in a 109G10 seen a dot in the distance and vectored towards it. I found it hard to get any closure on it .wait..not an La7..cause it had way too much speed at the early high alt when first spotted...Must be an 109G10 190D9..or something...I shall BnZ this bogey>. Then the dot dove towards it own base. I decided the best approach would be to drop a few thousand feet and pursue the con. Then the con was down on the deck and headed away from its base. At this point i decided i would drop to its level..If the fight should go vertical i will still have an edge> Finally im closing on his 6 on the DECK now Tally a 109!!....but what variant?...must be an 109g-10 with all that speed and the time it took my g-10 to close on it. I close to within 1K and he goes into a high yo-yo and curls under me. As expected...
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: phookat on July 21, 2004, 04:49:27 PM
La5 outclimbs G10? Not as far as I've seen...
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Fauxbra on July 21, 2004, 06:16:33 PM
Pssst...the Dora is a Dweeb ride too. Just a RCH less Dweeby than the LA7 and the Niki. But sometimes it just feels good to fly those "more forgiving" planes , dont bother me in the least.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Fruda on July 21, 2004, 07:54:37 PM
Fauxbra is the reason I went Rooks.
I was talking about all Fw's, not just the Dora. And the 190's are certainly not forgiveable to fly, as they're prone to stalling in even loose turns.
I know that the N1K and Spit IX attract the n00b pilots, but when it comes down to it, you whine about them because you're nothing but turn fighters. If you run and gun a N1K in a 109, there's no way it can catch you. I'm not saying to run away from the fight; I'm saying to make a series of passes, therefore avoiding turn fighting.
Quit whining and try something different.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: mechanic on July 21, 2004, 08:42:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ZAMO lol Its all so relative........
Some of my best pilots list are high ranked....ummmm Taki......Furball....etc I have fought against them and I always had a blast. Some others high ranked are rook and I never fought against them. I couldnt tell.
Some of my best pilots list arent high ranked....ummmm Greebo, Nelcan, Wingzero, DmnCoach...etc etc.
So I cant tell rank means nothing...at least...half of them are very good for me.
Another thing is that I have never understood the definition of "dweeb plane". I guess it has been said here lots of time by people. Its not about the plane...its about the man.
Some people are the best with 190s.....dweebs?
Some people are the best with spits...dweebs?
Some people are the best with P51......dweebs?
Some peolple are very good with spits, 190s, F6F..whatever.
Some people are very good at rtb with lots of kills, even from outnumbered situations....cherry pickers? gangbangers? vulquers?....is 1/3 of the population able to do that if they would try to? hehe
Some people fly an SPIT or a La7 and they fly at 5 k waiting to be attacked by 3 higher enemies all at once...this man kill them all....SPITDWEEB?? LOL
Some people talk more than they kill (lately me)
Some people kill more than they talk
Some guys are excellent at looking at STATS players and they can guess if the pilot sucks or not !!!!!!! or they way he fights!!! just looking at his stats LOL.
For me the bottom line is: quit of the arena all those "dweeb planes" and you will have the same "level of dweebery".
If I see a high ranked pilot in the arena..i give him a 90% he is a hot stick.
If I see a not high ranked pilot in the arena...i give him a 70 % he is a hot stick
well said Zamo!
but they wont listen, they will still go on with the whines till the day the MA is just Goons and PT boats......and 109s :)
i a Spit5 pilot who stays below 10k always, and i love fighting to the death even when outnumbered 5 to 1
am i a dweeb?
only in your eyes, whine crew
I have some films of me on my own fighting many, many bad guys and sometimes winning and landing 5 kills.
does this make me a dweeb?
it makes me proud personaly, but 'dweeb-er-ise' me if you must :rolleyes:
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Mugzeee on July 21, 2004, 09:22:13 PM
Quote
Originally posted by phookat La5 outclimbs G10? Not as far as I've seen...
Welp..its close actually. The G10 from Sea Level to about 6k Military power out climbs the La5..But from 6K to about 8K the LA5 has the edge at military power. added It is in this few thousand that you can zoom up with a lazy 109g-10 pilot and surprise the britches off em. While you are correct in general. I use the LA5 for base defense specifically to deal with 109s and 190d9. And kill Many Many G-10s and D9s in the vertical because they under estimate the La5. But yes...the 109g-10 is the exception. It does basically outclimb the La5 across the board. The G-2 is also a close match below 7K. Thats about it with the exception of the Perk plane set.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: AKWarp on July 21, 2004, 09:54:51 PM
LOL!
I love it when a spit pilot whines because I won't "come and fight" him when I'm in a BnZ plane. Well duh! I'll fight, but certainly not on his terms.
The Turn n Burn crowd just hate the fact that the Boom n Zoom planes will be the ones that dictate when the fight is on. It's just the rules of physics guys. If you're a turner, the only thing you can do is be ready when the speed monster decides he wants to fight (if he does). If a d9 pilot tries to turn fight, he deserves to die. It's not what that plane does well. It ain't about opinion and it ain't about being a "wussy", it's about using your plane to its best advantage...anyhting less is stupid.
Smart turn fighters can nab boomers if they do it right and vice versa. Learn the plane and learn how to use it.
Easier said than done of course :D
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Dead Man Flying on July 21, 2004, 10:00:16 PM
Quote
Originally posted by AKWarp I love it when a spit pilot whines because I won't "come and fight" him when I'm in a BnZ plane. Well duh! I'll fight, but certainly not on his terms.
I don't think it's a BnZ vs. TnB thing. Most turnfighters understand that faster, more poorly turning planes shouldn't and won't turnfight. I see many of the complaints here concern aggression vs. nonaggression.
It's a mistake to think that BnZ necessarily requires flying boringly or unaggressively.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Morpheus on July 21, 2004, 10:34:40 PM
I still dont get what we're not getting.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: mechanic on July 21, 2004, 10:58:30 PM
dont worry morph, they dont have a clue what they are whining about either really.
it seems to be just a chance to whine/counter-whine with the same old 'you're a dweeb and i'm an ace' rant.
so why not put some fuel on the fire and maybe it will deteriate to a level where it gets skuzzified. if we are lucky
Batfink
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: DipStick on July 22, 2004, 12:00:19 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying I don't think it's a BnZ vs. TnB thing. Most turnfighters understand that faster, more poorly turning planes shouldn't and won't turnfight. I see many of the complaints here concern aggression vs. nonaggression.
It's a mistake to think that BnZ necessarily requires flying boringly or unaggressively.
-- Todd/Leviathn
That's what I'm talkin' about. These guys that come in at 400+ and extend to 5-6k, rinse and repeat are just clueless.
Although I still think b-n-z takes very little skill. That's why noobs fly Pee51s and run90s and fly so timid. :p
( That should start the ball rolling Bat! ;) )
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 22, 2004, 12:25:49 AM
Simaril was trying to say that the ones that whine about all the spits, nikis, La's. 51s flying should step up and help these particular flyers out in learning other aircraft instead of whining about it, because he thinks they have not learned the ins and outs of other planes.....
or the ones who run away from a fair Co-e 1 on 1 fight or Blow by miss a guns solution then run for ever extending, before reversing if they ever do.
He says we older long time flyers should take them under our wing and offer advice.......not tell them what plane to fly, but how to fly their choice of plane better.
In his intial post he asked each of us ( I guess everyone that posted) what are we doing? are we helping or are we whining.
As we all know, maybe 1/3rd of the AH flyers read the BBS here, may it be possible to beg HTC to put out a monthly news letter about Aceshigh, maybe what updates are planned, future things to look for in new patches, upcoming events, A LINK TO THE ACES HIGH BBS, maybe a help article or flying tip monthly by an Aces high flying Member, previous month Tour winners ( squad, Individual category, KOTH Winner for previous month....just an idea here, HTC already has email addresses for every subscribed flyer, this also could go for the HtoH crowd also if they wanted on the mail list for a monthly News Letter from HTC.
It may get more people to the AH BBS and more people wanting to learn how to better their ability in different planes.....
That is how I took his intial thread post, alot of people offer help...the fact of the matter is you can't help someone who isn't asking for it........
now I would like to ask the question back to Simaril, what are you doing?:)
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Redd on July 22, 2004, 01:55:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying I don't think it's a BnZ vs. TnB thing. Most turnfighters understand that faster, more poorly turning planes shouldn't and won't turnfight. I see many of the complaints here concern aggression vs. nonaggression.
It's a mistake to think that BnZ necessarily requires flying boringly or unaggressively.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Exactly Lev
And the difference is , you can have a really fun fight against a faster plane if you are in the slow plane - even if you perhaps lose in the end ......or you can have a really boring 10 minutes of attempted HO's and extensions that make you want to just log off , lie down and sleep.
Because I fly a middle of the road plane ( F6-F) , I see that cut both ways and try not to be too boring when I'm in E-fighting mode.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: mechanic on July 22, 2004, 03:03:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DipStick That's what I'm talkin' about. These guys that come in at 400+ and extend to 5-6k, rinse and repeat are just clueless.
Although I still think b-n-z takes very little skill. That's why noobs fly Pee51s and run90s and fly so timid. :p
( That should start the ball rolling Bat! ;) )
hehehe - first one to drop an F-bomb or personally insult someones mother gets a free lesson in LA-7 ACM!
as far the question of how am i helping noobs, Redtop and myself have recently started a squad of spitfires and wee all fly the mk5 model or seafire if from a carrier. we do regular DA and TA sessions to improve our squaddies ACM (yes, believe it or not, ACM plays a large part in decent spit flying too) and most importantly in SA. We teach them not to HO and not to die ungracefully. we make sure they respect their squad, their enemies and most of all, their beautifull aircraft, the Spitfire mkV.
If i ever see a noob asking questions on ch200 or country, then i help to the best of my limited ability. I have even been known to take a total stranger form the MA to the DA and help him for whatever time he needs on the odd occasion.
This doesnt make me a saint, i dont expect thanks or appraisal from anyone here, the good deed in itself makes me feel good enough to do it again next time someone needs help.
just like helping an old lady cross the road or even simple politeness like holding a door for someone instead of letting it slam in their face.
these things are not special, they should be done naturally by anyone who isnt a total arse.
I think the real problem here is that these whiners get killed too often by 'dweeb' rides becuase they expect each one to be manned by a 'dweeb', when they find a spit/la/nik that has a decent pilot and they cant just BnZ them in one pass and they get reversed on and killed, they claim thats it was only the 'dweeb' plane that made the other pilot kill them, not that the pilot was infact a skilled advesary.
ok. enough.
good night
bat
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: DipStick on July 22, 2004, 04:01:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by mechanic hehehe - first one to drop an F-bomb or personally insult someones mother gets a free lesson in LA-7 ACM!
LMAO!
as far the question of how am i helping noobs, Redtop and myself have recently started a squad of spitfires and wee all fly the mk5 model or seafire if from a carrier. we do regular DA and TA sessions to improve our squaddies ACM (yes, believe it or not, ACM plays a large part in decent spit flying too) and most importantly in SA. We teach them not to HO and not to die ungracefully. Had me ready to signup till here. :lol we make sure they respect their squad, their enemies and most of all, their beautifull aircraft, the Spitfire mkV.
If i ever see a noob asking questions on ch200 or country, then i help to the best of my limited ability. I have even been known to take a total stranger form the MA to the DA and help him for whatever time he needs on the odd occasion.
Been there, done that.
This doesnt make me a saint, i dont expect thanks or appraisal from anyone here, the good deed in itself makes me feel good enough to do it again next time someone needs help.
Agreed.
just like helping an old lady cross the road or even simple politeness like holding a door for someone instead of letting it slam in their face.
these things are not special, they should be done naturally by anyone who isnt a total arse.
:lol
I think the real problem here is that these whiners get killed too often by 'dweeb' rides becuase they expect each one to be manned by a 'dweeb', when they find a spit/la/nik that has a decent pilot and they cant just BnZ them in one pass and they get reversed on and killed, they claim thats it was only the 'dweeb' plane that made the other pilot kill them, not that the pilot was infact a skilled advesary.
ok. enough.
good night
bat
Can remember fighting you , Tmast, some of the shills and others way back when AW was on AOL. Man times have changed but sometimes the fun is still there if only for a moment.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: 33Vortex on July 22, 2004, 05:05:14 AM
Good topic and interesting discussion, I'll add some to it if you don't mind. :) I flew against a P51 at high alt, merged after minutes of trying to get the better position but he maintained alt and speed on me (this was around 18-20k) so it was difficult and I knew I wouldn't be able to disengage from this guy. However he came at me head on at one time, angled a little to my left but remained flying in a straight line so of course I took the shot I knew had a good chance of hitting and hit the cockpit/wing root area. I was in a 190D-9, my fav ride. He comes around again and do the same thing, this time more aggressive and try to hit me, misses and I take his wing off with a few 20 mm.
What response do I get? He message me: "It must really suck to have no piloting skills."
Right... :rolleyes:
This is the kind of attitude I (and many others I hope) don't want to see in the game. If you can't take getting shot down you shouldn't play because it's part of the game.
I agree with what 4aces posted about this game being about advantage. It's about knowing when to fight and when to avoid the fight. If I'm in a 190 at 15k and see a 51 at 20k I know I'm in for a tough fight if that pilot has any talent/skill at all and knows how to shoot. Lucky for me not all 51 pilots know how to shoot. :) However you can usually tell within seconds wheter an opponent is a good stick.
I'm pretty new in AH, flew Fighter Ace for years, since 97 I believe. Everything I've learned about ACM is what I've picked up myself and from books I've read. And I'll tell you something... in FA it took me well over 200 deaths to get my first kill. I was vulched, strafed, jumped, sneaked up on and HOed for what seemed like forever, but being the fanatic flying enthusiast I am I just wouldn't give up. I flew without a squad for about a year, basically taught myself and learned from experience. Eventually gave up on FA because they changed the game and physics too much for my liking, stumbled across AH and loved it.
Today I consider myself being a good stick, but I want to learn more (who doesn't). I favor the 190D-9 and the 109G-10, for the hitting power and the 109 also for it's excellent climb rate. When fighting I use the vertical whenever I can, the 190D-9 is very good in the vertical, and when angle fighting in the 190 I'm accused of being a HO dweeb from time to time by some certain ppl.
Of course I get owned by Spit's, La5/7's, N1K's and whoever can catch me low and slow. The 190 is an easy target when slow, more so than other planes because it's poor turn rate.
Anyway... I know my B&Z tactics well, what I want to know more about is pure dogfighting, turnfighting, anyone with enough skill and confidence in that area who'd like to teach me some moves please contact me ingame or pm me here on the boards.
One thing I've learned during all my online flying: No matter how good you are, or how good you think you are, there will always be someone better than you. There will always be someone that find a way to take you down, or get the opportunity to do so because of circumstances beyond your control. You will never be safe, play the game to kill and get killed.
See you in the skies, I fly more than read the forums.
=S=
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Redd on July 22, 2004, 06:58:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by 33Vortex Anyway... I know my B&Z tactics well, what I want to know more about is pure dogfighting, turnfighting, anyone with enough skill and confidence in that area who'd like to teach me some moves please contact me ingame or pm me here on the boards.
=S=
Some things I think are good to do
Do some FFA in the DA , some of the guys in there are good to fight against. Fight some duels with the guys that are better than you (not the ones you can beat anyway)
Film the fights - ask them what they did when they shoot you down. If you can, ask them to film the fight and send it to you
Fly an all-rounder plane in the arena sometimes ie one that can E-fight and TnB eg 109G F6-F Spit9 . E-fight the slower planes and TnB the other "all-rounders" and the faster planes.
Spend some tours not caring about getting killed - get in as many close fights as you can. Fight against planes you might normally "extend" from. Don't look at your score.
Imho TnB skills are a better foundation for E-Fighting than BNZ skills. If you are just doing BnZzzzzz all day you won't have the skills to get down and dirty when you need to.
Have fun !
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: lazs2 on July 22, 2004, 09:05:44 AM
it's actually gotten a little worse than all that... Now it seems that the fast late war planes do not only fly in a nonagressive manner but... they look for furballs to B & Z rather than to fight each other... Makes sense but... if they are claiming that it takes skill to fly those planes then why don't they fight others of their kind..
plus... they don't even show any agressiveness at all if they percieve that they might endanger themselves... they wait for a "missuz" and come in with the horde and hope that they can get a few sissy kicks in before the field gets shut down... 190's and 51's are the worst for this..
lazs
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Zippatuh on July 22, 2004, 09:08:14 AM
Hello… My name is Zippatuh and I fly the P51D because I suck.
I will never get any better, I will never engage a 1v1 or 1v2, I will run any chance I get.
I actually hate the P51 but am depressed that I am unable and unskilled in any other aircraft.
Is there a pill I can take?
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: jaxxo on July 22, 2004, 10:39:04 AM
lolol.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: jaxxo on July 22, 2004, 12:31:55 PM
I tell ya what, good luck getting a coalt 190, 109, pony, or p47 to fight. They make one weak arse pass (ho usually) and run like hell. I used to have fun takin a spit9 to 15 or 20k to fight a few but no one is interested in taking a risk of getting killed anymore..unless they have help coming ...than its straight to to the backup. Is this the new "style" from younger gamers pushing out the old honor and skill style of us vets? I mean how many times can ya dive vulch extend and repeat before it gets old?
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: phookat on July 22, 2004, 12:35:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by jaxxo I tell ya what, good luck getting a coalt 190, 109, pony, or p47 to fight.
Find the one that doesn't belong.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Badfish1 on July 22, 2004, 01:25:08 PM
I am new to AH and have been trying many planes, so-called dweeb planes as well as others. IMO there seems to be a bigger problem than what planes people fly. In only two short weeks in the MA I have noticed that there are only 2 countries. It's the Knight-Rooks against the Bishps everytime I log on. Now THAT qualifies as DWEEBISM more than any plane choice. Flame away....
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: simshell on July 22, 2004, 01:31:04 PM
just for fun i ask these great flyers to get 2 air to air kills or more in a P40B and take a screenshot and post it in here
:p
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: phookat on July 22, 2004, 01:53:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Badfish1 I am new to AH and have been trying many planes, so-called dweeb planes as well as others. IMO there seems to be a bigger problem than what planes people fly. In only two short weeks in the MA I have noticed that there are only 2 countries. It's the Knight-Rooks against the Bishps everytime I log on. Now THAT qualifies as DWEEBISM more than any plane choice. Flame away....
Everyone thinks they're the persecuted ones. ;) Don't whine, just fly.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Krusty on July 22, 2004, 02:00:55 PM
Does a couple in an Ar234 count? :P
I got a 109 too, but the luck SOB did a dead-stick landing on a nearby island.
(http://www.nakatomitower.com/ar234kill.jpg)
P.S. Yes I've gotten several kills a sortie in the P40B. Just no pics of it
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: 33Vortex on July 22, 2004, 06:11:12 PM
Thanks for the tips Redd, I'm looking for advanced turnfighting tactics, more than just the high/low yo-yo and corkscrew stuff. Advanced ACM in both the horizontal and vertical plane. Are there any good online sources available where ACM is illustrated.?
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 22, 2004, 06:28:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 33Vortex Advanced ACM in both the horizontal and vertical plane. Are there any good online sources available where ACM is illustrated.?
33Vortex, take a look at this thread in the help & training forum Understanding BFM vs. ACM (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=123084)
BFMs ( Basic Flight Manuevers ) are , aileron roll, barrell roll, hi yo-yo, low yo-yo, immelman, split-s, zoom climb ( No G/Load climb ), snap roll, to name a few..... ACM ( Air Combat Manuevering ) is the ability to switch these BFMs up on a seconds notice as the fight negates. ACM is something that can be taught basically to a degree but to become better at it takes practice and much to do with how much time an individual puts into it and the desire he has to learn/get experience in the seat/cockpit. SA ( Situational Awareness ) plays the biggest roll of all, and is where one should start before he gets his foot planted to firmly on the rudder pedal.
One can learn a specific tactic for a given move/merge but every merge is not the same, there is always some small part that will be different, this is where you need to focus, and adapt your BFMs to the given situation, this in itself is ACM.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Simaril on July 22, 2004, 08:15:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser Simaril was trying to say that the ones that whine about all the spits, nikis, La's. 51s flying should step up and help these particular flyers out in learning other aircraft instead of whining about it, because he thinks they have not learned the ins and outs of other planes..... ____
now I would like to ask the question back to Simaril, what are you doing?:)
Thanks, tequila, for putting it so well. That's the gist of whta I was trying to say.
To answer your question, I do what I can. Like amny who've posted, I've taken people to DA or TA to give starter courses. When I see an obvious newbie question on CH200, I'll answer and then PM the guy to ask if he wants to work on something.
I've had a couple times, usually with more mature players, where they've taken me up on it. I thoroughly enjoyed those times, both because I get a kick out of teaching and because I know I've cut months off the guy's learning curve. Picking up bombing techniques, learning the concept of aircraft energy management, knowing how to approach a formation of bombers to minimize danger -- all stuff I learned the hard way.
More often than not, though, the PM doesnt get answered, or the guy goes off to randomly bounce around the MA. That's fine for him, but I've done my part for the community.
What still ticks me off -- and what prompted the post -- is that I still consistantly see the dismissive attitude from experienced players. "Go read the help file." "Go to the TA." The vets who think that way are only hurting themselves, because HTC's resources are tied to subscribers, which is tied to player retention more than enlistment.
Now obviously many of the people who have posted are willing teachers already. I say, great, and keep up the good work.
But these boards are filled with 2 common attititudes -- whines about "dweeb planes" (and the many plans for changing the mix to the TnB's taste), and dismissive comments about other people's skills.
I just wanted those others folks to realize that the two attitudes aren't compatible, and whining rather than teaching means more "dweebs" out there to complain about.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: lazs2 on July 23, 2004, 10:29:55 AM
u guys are making too much of it... a well flown late war plane will allways best an equally well flown early or mid wart one.
The guys who fly late war planes know this and try to obscure the subject... you are getting your advantage by clicking on a plane in the hanger.
No? Perhaps I am wrong and HT is mistaken on the planes that he perks?
Look... you late war guys pick em cause they have a big advantage before you even take off... you can also get away it the situation is bad if you use even moderate SA.
Even if you are a crappy late war stick you are annoying to the fighters.
The fast late war planes don't belong in the same fight as the early and mid war ones. They have too much of an advantage and ruin the gameplay too much.
lazs
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: phookat on July 23, 2004, 10:55:57 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2 The fast late war planes don't belong in the same fight as the early and mid war ones. They have too much of an advantage and ruin the gameplay too much.
I can't tell if you're joking, but if not...
What part of the gameplay do they ruin? Variety is good, and adds to the fun. Didn't figure you for the type that would complain about what other people fly in a furball...
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: beet1e on July 23, 2004, 11:26:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser you got to have the desire/drive/wanna to learn everything you can...and it takes months/years/decades to get there depending on how far you take it.
Well, you're not wrong, but you're leaving a lot out. Months/Years/decades to learn what? One thing I have learned as one release gives way to the next is that all these games are merely an interpretation of WW2 and the skills needed to fly fighter planes. But as we have seen, games differ from one another. Thw WB 190D9 was nothing like the 190D9 in AH. And in one of the other games (AW?) I heard that a 190A8 can turn with a Spit. :lol
When people become great sticks in a game like AH1, it means nothing more than the fact that they have learned the techniques, foibles, and idiosyncracies of a particular release of a particular game. Just look at AH1: So many people got their scores/ranks etc. by means of a plethora of gamey tricks. The N1K helicopter and the 800yd vertical spray shots spring to mind. But oh - in AH2, these are a thing of the past, and whatever was learned must now be unlearned! Small wonder, then, that we had such a whinefest and account cancellationfest when AH2 was deployed. Just to make the point, we had one guy, Steve, who did brilliantly in AH1, but come AH2 he cancelled his account!! Why would that have been then, other than AH1 tricks not working in AH2? (Sorry to have to use this to make a point, Steve - you can wring my neck later!)
So for this reason, I'll do what I've always done in these games, which has been to try to fly them according to WW2 accounts I've read, and not rely on gamey tricks. That is why I had no problems with the AH2 gunnery (I always got in close) and why the AH1 game-the-game doodz were crying in their beer. Sure, I'll get zapped by the GtG doodz as they learn new tricks. I'll take my lumps on that.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: phookat on July 23, 2004, 12:10:31 PM
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e So for this reason, I'll do what I've always done in these games, which has been to try to fly them according to WW2 accounts I've read, and not rely on gamey tricks. That is why I had no problems with the AH2 gunnery (I always got in close) and why the AH1 game-the-game doodz were crying in their beer. Sure, I'll get zapped by the GtG doodz as they learn new tricks. I'll take my lumps on that.
I think there's a middle ground here that you are not considering. There are many skills you can have which don't depend on GtG, but which you cannot learn if you fly for safety's sake all the time (unless you are Erich Hartmann's grandson :D). We have a unique opportunity that even RL pilots don't have, to gain that skill.
What is the point of gaining this skill, you ask? To have fun...same reason *all* of us are here, no matter who you are. I've seen some posts where you say you are bored with the game. I think this would liven it up for you. Spend a few tours not caring about death. Dive into disadvantageous situations, outnumbered situations. Practice defensive manuvers and reversals. Will be fun, and will get the heart pounding. :) And in the end the kills you get and the times you survive will be more satisfying.
BTW, I defeinitely agree with you on the new gunnery. So sick of the d1000 sn1p3rz.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 23, 2004, 04:23:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e Well, you're not wrong, but you're leaving a lot out. Months/Years/decades to learn what?
Beetle, I apologize for not making it clearer. I was explaining the people this topic is in discussion about need to have the desire/wanna ( as nopoop described it) to learn the advantages/weakness/manueverability of each individual plane. Learn SA, leanr how to judge a bogeys E state etc.........
It does not matter which game you played, the principles of BFM/ACM/ACT/SA are still there and used in all combat fighter sims. These principles are a must if you ever think of reaching for the top of the ladder.
SA = Situational Awareness BFM = Basic Flight Manuevers ACM = Air combat Manuevering ACT = Air combat Tactics
to me this is the order of which one should learn and take each level in a way that he can learn the utmost from it that is possibly accessible.
As for those that as you mentioned game the game flyer bys, I have no answer for that or them, I guess they must find another way, if that is their forte :)
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: TequilaChaser on July 23, 2004, 04:29:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e And in one of the other games (AW?) I heard that a 190A8 can turn with a Spit. :lol
not sure about the Relaxed Realism arenas, I hardly ever flew them, but this did not happen in the Full Realsim Arenas, there was a brief period where the term, Spin Fighter came about, it was where you could do a controlled spin, and some of the 190A8 flyers used this spin manuever to outturn spits, it was nothing like actually doing turn and burn ( stall fighting ) They did try to fix the spin model, but still some were able to continue forth with trying to be spin fighters, most were shotdown trying it though :D
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Morpheus on July 23, 2004, 04:35:14 PM
what are we doing here?
wtf ?!
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Mugzeee on July 23, 2004, 05:05:24 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS what are we doing here?
wtf ?!
Im not sure if it was intentional or not Morph. But this repeated reply made me laugh so much...That even i have forgotten what this thread was about till i scrolled to the top! :rofl PS..i believe the answer to your dilemma is in your signature ;) Just do one or the other and you will be able to think clearly again. :D
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Murdr on July 23, 2004, 05:06:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e And in one of the other games (AW?) I heard that a 190A8 can turn with a Spit. :lol
The best A8 pilots could use its superior roll rate to trick a spit, but it could not actually turn with it.
Isnt your gamey game the game line getting stale yet?
Quote
And since when did playing the game as designed become "gaming the game"?
HiTech [/B]
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: NoBaddy on July 23, 2004, 06:29:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e And in one of the other games (AW?) I heard that a 190A8 can turn with a Spit. :lol
Well, as one that flew the AW A8 for a number of years, it could outturn a spit....for about 250 degrees of the first turn IF the Fw driver made the spit driver think he was making a high speed pass and instead chopped and dumped flaps. Bottomline, if you didn't blow him away in the first 180 degrees...you had best be running like a lil gurl, because you were lunch meat. :)
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: beet1e on July 24, 2004, 03:09:31 AM
Phookat & Tequila -
I should clarify. Of course a lot of the skills from one game can be carried over into another. But techniques differ. Back in AH1 I would sometimes try roping a Spit or N1K in a 109, and they would sometimes be able to pull that helicopter crap and even blow my wing off with one of those 800yd vertical sprays. That no longer works in AH2, and I've whacked a few that have tried as they stalled out. Time was when it was dangerous to get within 800yds in any direction of some planes like SpitV/N1K. They could change direction very quickly and then spray like an unfixed male cat. :mad: So different techniques had to be used/learned. All I'm saying is that learning something by rote is not always applicable in a *game*. When WB gunnery changed from 2.5 to the 2.7x releases (we don't talk about 2.6) 400yd shots no longer worked - you had to get to 200yds. Doing that without crashing, with iEN sucky connects meant relearning half the game.
AH2 has fixed a whole lot of the gamey crap that was ruining the game for me whilst being the raison d'être for others. As for my boredom with the game, that stems from two sources right now. [list=1]
Permanent small maps, which I can't stand because of the mindless horde/ganbang/enforced furball gameplay they engender;
Same old same old gameplay, with the SOSO guys flying the same 4-5 planes the whole time.
Of course, we've had guys saying that AH2 is "half the fun" of AH1. Their point of view seems to stem from the ease with which they could deploy their gamey 800yd spray shots and make stuff go BOOM in AH1. Those guys don't seek any form of WW2 realism/immersion - they just want a shooting gallery.
And AKFF said "The LA7 is very nimble, brutal acceleration, good guns package and great views.. The Pony is quite maneuverable, great guns package, lots of fuel, lots of jabo capabilities, fast... just an all around great ride. With rides like that, why choose anything else???" Well, I'm happy for him, but that way of thinking, for me, represents everything that's wrong with AH gameplay. I don't fly the easymode überplanes, and it becomes tedious having to deal with them all the damn time. That doesn't mean I can't kill 'em. In T49 (last complete tour I played) I was 35/4 against lalas. But it just gets so boring. I want a WW2 war/flight sim where the gameplay has some sort of purpose. The crap we have now just doesn't hold my interest, hence only 6 hours of play for me this tour.
So no, I do NOT have the wanna/fire/ambition or whatever it was Nopoop called it.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Xargos on July 24, 2004, 05:35:50 AM
Is the Fw190-A5 a dweeb plane? Hope not, I'm starting to test that one out now.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: beet1e on July 26, 2004, 07:06:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Xargos Is the Fw190-A5 a dweeb plane? Hope not, I'm starting to test that one out now.
Argos, no - the 190A5 is not a dweeb ride. Although if you look at the performance figures, it's the fastest climbing 190 of them all - at least in AH1 that was the case. Don't know about AH2.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Misfit on July 26, 2004, 12:34:10 PM
Beetle, I dunno where you got your info from about the 190A8 in AWer, But i was never able to flat turn with a spit in my A8. The "E" model in AWer was very different and i believe us A8 pilots suffered the most in transition.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: lazs2 on July 27, 2004, 09:03:22 AM
phoocat.. What kind of gameplay is it to fly a late war plane high into a furball that is 50 mph slower and then B & Z the planes that are engaged in a fight? Dodging fast planes while engaged with fighters is not good gameplay. Having a bunch of pee 51's and doras and gee 10s circling a capped field is not good gameplay..
Even.... grabbing a tempest and running these guys down is not good gameplay... they die like they have never actually had anyone on their 6 who could catch em.... oh wait... no challenge... no gameplay.
I still believe that there is room for an early war only area within the maps.
lazs
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: J_A_B on July 27, 2004, 10:04:22 AM
For those of you who think that the "dweeb rides" give an automatic advantage....
Go fly one on the deck in a furball sometime--low and slow. You'll soon find that, if anything, it's the earlier planes that have an advantage in this sort of situation. I'm not kidding when I say I'd get at least 50% more kills if I flew a Spit 5 instead of a P-51. I mean--come on guys--it's no secret that all the really high K/T guys fly nimble planes that are actually good at close-in fighting. I can't count the numer of times that my guns just didn't quite do enough damage, or I just couldn't get the nose around fast enough, and missed out as a result. Yeah...if you like to fly at 20K and attack the occasional AFKer, or pork bases....the P-51 is good. But honestly--in a low altitude furball it's a piece of junk. About its only saving grace is I don't need to worry about the fuel guage too much.
Why do I fly it then? Because that's what I flew in AW...it has sentimental value. If I was going to pick something that is actually GOOD I'd probably be in an N1K or Spit 5. Those can do maneuvers and survive situations that I can only deam of in the P-51.
Not to mention there's still the fact that a slow plane like a Spit 5 or a 109F is just as capable of BnZing stuff in a furball as the faster planes are. Indeed, they're arguably more effective for it.
Basically what I'm saying is that the slower planes hold their own perfectly fine; thanks for listening.
J_A_B
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: lazs2 on July 27, 2004, 10:17:50 AM
jab... no... mostly you can't get high K/T in the fast late war planes and mostly you can't get low and slow in a big furball and expect to live... but...
Who does that? Not many. It is stupid in any case.
So what I get is that you are basicly complaining that you are invulnerable to the slow planes but it all evens out because even tho you can kill them with impunity you can't do it very fast without taking risks?
lazs
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Edbert on July 27, 2004, 10:22:05 AM
Helping noobs: It is a good idea for all the reasons mentioned but the question like "how do I takeoff"and "what key shoots my gun" get pretty irritating sometimes.
Whining about other players choice of aircraft: This always boils down to an argument where the fatser plane says quit breaking sho sharply and the slower plane says quit running. If you are in La7/P51/190D there's no reason to extend beyond 1.5-2.0 if you are giving battle unless you are planning on disengaging. But there's also no point in the Spit driver calling the Dora driver a weenie or a dweeb becasue he wont stall-fight you. I always liked the RPS, it gave better matchups in my opinion, but I am in a very small minority with that opinion.
Flying for fun: When I fly the pee51 I really enjoy blowing a speed or alt advantage and doing some T&B with a more agile oponent. I can almost see the suprise on the oponent's face whenever I do, and it often results in a victory (probably beacuse he is in shock). The problem is with the crowds I usually wont make it back home after doing so. There always seems to be 8-12 much higher enemies show up whenever I do get low and slow. I always looked forward to the small maps entering the rotation because I got bored trying to find fights on the big ones. If my squad ever intercepted a raid they'd just re-up elsewhere and continue their milkruns. But I am starting to agree with Beetle, the incessant 30v40 that we have now is getting old too.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: phookat on July 27, 2004, 10:51:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2 phoocat.. What kind of gameplay is it to fly a late war plane high into a furball that is 50 mph slower and then B & Z the planes that are engaged in a fight?
Let em fly how they want...
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2 Dodging fast planes while engaged with fighters is not good gameplay.
Sure it is. Adds a challenge. Especially for those who fly late war planes in a furball, they can't dodge the BnZers as easily as an early war plane.
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2 Having a bunch of pee 51's and doras and gee 10s circling a capped field is not good gameplay..
Yeah hordes suck, but hordes will be hordes regardless of early or late war.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: J_A_B on July 27, 2004, 11:06:20 AM
"Who does that? Not many. It is stupid in any case. "
Stupid huh? No stupider than, say, someone who picks an F6F when there's the N1K2 that out-everythings it available :)
"So what I get is that you are basicly complaining that you are invulnerable to the slow planes but it all evens out because even tho you can kill them with impunity you can't do it very fast without taking risks? "
Invulnerable? LOL! Why? Because it can run?
By your same flawed logic a Spit 5 is invulnerable to a P-51 because it can dodge the P-51's attacks indefinately with maneuvers that the Mustang can't hope to follow. And that is how it frequently plays out in the arena--alone, a Spit 5 against P-51 will commonly result in a draw with neither plane able to kill the other.
The difference is that the guy in the nimble plane will be making a jerk out of himself on channel 200 yelling "come back here you wussy runner"......while I can't remember ever seeing somebody telling the Spit guy to quit maneuvering.
I see it as balanced, at least in the case of the P-51. I am NOT talking about things like the 190D-9 or LA7--both of which are generally superior to the Mustang IMO. I don't fly either enough to really comment on how balanced they are for the MA ( heck I don't think I've EVER flown an LA7 online).
Take the snide undertones out of your post and I can see that even you know the balance inherent in the situation, although both of us know that there'd be no harm in having an area designated specifically for extremely early models which have no chance in the MA. Being slow by itself isn't the problem that people seem to protray it as. Nobody calls the N1K2 "underpowered". Being slow with no firepower and bad E-bleed....now there's a problem.
On and tell me why you seem to think that Spits and N1k's and such never BnZ slower planes in furballs either. Heck a BnZing Spit might be the most deadly plane in the game.
J_A_B
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Zippatuh on July 27, 2004, 12:17:52 PM
I don’t think you all understand here…
It can’t be that someone would want to fly the P51 because they like it admire it, have a warm place for it. They only fly it because they are unskilled and unable to fly anything else. I think that’s the premises for the argument.
Just smile and nod and say “yup, you’re right”.
Maybe one of these days I’ll get up from the kids table then fly and fight the way I’m supposed to. One day just maybe; hell, we can all dream to be more than what we are.
Just confess that you’re unskilled and unable. I have and it feels like a heavy weight has been lifted off of me somehow. Refreshing I tell ya.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Wadke on July 27, 2004, 01:03:21 PM
"FEAR THE P-40!!!"
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: NoBaddy on July 27, 2004, 01:13:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Wadke "FEAR THE P-40!!!"
Wadke...that ranks right up there with ones like "FEAR THE GUMMI BEARS!!!" :D.
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Wadke on July 27, 2004, 01:22:00 PM
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Simaril on July 28, 2004, 05:14:27 PM
Ok, wadke, what's the scoop ---
You've got gummi bears in a retort with stoppered flask. Is this photo from some kind of warped experiment? Are we torturing cutsie candies? Do we have a imprisonment fetish? Are we calculating the caloric density of high carb foods? What the heck were you doing?????
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Misfit on July 28, 2004, 05:53:14 PM
nevermind not worth it :rolleyes:
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: KurtVW on July 28, 2004, 07:08:02 PM
Ah the endless debate that won't ever die..
[Rant=on] Fact is there are two schools of fighting... Turn&burn, and boom&zoom.
Those who fly one always call the others dweebs.
There simply is NO always correct way. Every interview I've ever seen with a WWII pilot from any country was that they always tried to be high, and they always tried to scream down, get the snap shot an then get the heck out of Dodge before the bogie's buddies showed up!
The belief that we are supposed to hang around and die is ridiculous.
I fly both modes, And I get yelled at no matter what... "Look at Kurt in his FW-run190... Run kurt run...".. OR "Look at the spit dweeb"
You can't win this discussion.
Yeah, forget that I am running because I am hauling home kills and maybe don't care to tangle with you if I can avoid it... Or maybe out of Bullets, gas, BOTH or have a pilot wound...
You must simply realize this... There are no UBER planes.. There are only UBER pilots (no, I'm not one of them and I'm not trying to lead you to believe that I am). I have shot down some really great pilots in some really UBER rides, and I have had my UBER ride shot out from under me more times than I can count.
Even the mighty 262 is just gravy in the hands of an imbicile... Heck, I shot one down from a Zeek one time! Talk about your sad ways to lose 250 perks!
The only UBER vehicle in the game is the Tiger tank. All the rest require skill to master, and skill to kill.
Learn to apply the appropriate methods at the appropriate times and lets stop crying.
[/rant]
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Wadke on July 28, 2004, 08:20:50 PM
:rofl it was just a picture i found on some site... not mine Was all in good fun...i'll get rid of it
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Simaril on July 28, 2004, 09:11:16 PM
Naah, dont get rid of it! Cooking gummies has to be more nutritious than eating them plain , anyway.
Probably don't stick in teeth as much after a good roast.....
Title: You guys just don't get it
Post by: Edbert on July 29, 2004, 07:27:28 AM
"Cooking" them? It looked to me more like he was smoking them. Is that not some sort of drug paraphenalia, or is it just (that I thought it was) a sign of my misspent '80s?