Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Otto on July 22, 2004, 10:47:34 AM
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(emphasis added)
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NTSB Identification: ATL03FA008
Nonscheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
Accident occurred Wednesday, October 23, 2002 in Spanish Fort, AL
Aircraft: Cessna 208B, registration: N76U
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
HISTORY OF FLIGHT
On October 23, 2002, at 1945, central daylight time, a Cessna 208B, N76U, call sign Night Ship 282, registered to Atlantic Aero, Inc., and operated by Mid Atlantic Freight, Inc. collided in-flight with an unknown object at 3,000 feet MSL and descended uncontrolled into swampy water in the Big Bateau Bay in Spanish Fort, Alabama, shortly after takeoff from the Mobile Downtown Airport, in Mobile, Alabama. The cargo flight was operated under the provisions of Title 14 CFR Part 135, and instrument flight rules. Instrument meteorological conditions prevailed and an IFR flight plan was filed. The commercial pilot sustained fatal injuries and the airplane was destroyed. The flight originated from the Mobile Downtown Airport, in Mobile, Alabama on October 23,
2002 at 1940.
Full Report: http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20021029X05400&ntsbno=ATL03FA008&akey=1
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Over a swamp...this time of year...on take-off.
Birdstrike.
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Originally posted by Otto
(emphasis added)
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NTSB Identification: ATL03FA008
Nonscheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
Accident occurred Wednesday, October 23, 2002 in Spanish Fort, AL
Aircraft: Cessna 208B, registration: N76U
Injuries: 1 Fatal.
HISTORY OF FLIGHT
Full Report: http://www2.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20021029X05400&ntsbno=ATL03FA008&akey=1
Maybe a bird...
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Two pieces of airplane skin, a piece of cargo bag material a piece of unmanned aerial vehicle, and a piece of fabric were sent to Wright Patterson Air Force Base for analysis using microscope-based Fourier Transform Infrared Spectroscopy (FTIR). The infrared spectra were taken in transmission mode with samples mounted on a sodium chloride crystal plate, using a Bio-Rad Excalibur Series instrument. The spectra obtained were matched to spectra from several different databases to identify the type of polymer.
An unmanned aerial vehicle?!
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I could understand you believing it was a 'bird strike' from what I pasted. (except for it happening at 3000 ft) Only in the full report does it make it clear that it was a 'solid' object.
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Originally posted by Otto
I could understand you believing it was a 'bird strike' from what I pasted. (except for it happening at 3000 ft) Only in the full report does it make it clear that it was a 'solid' object.
If memory serves me, most bord strikes occur between 3K and 5K.
I'll have to check it.
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Bird strikes have occured over 10,000 feet. 3000 isn't all that high. Turkey Vulchers have been reported as high as 15,000 feet.
Sounds more like a weather balloon.
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Most birds don't fly at night, nor do they leave red paint marks on the struck plane.
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"No other object as been misidentified as a flying saucer more often than the planet Venus. ...and if you tell anyone anything else, I'll kill you."
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If it was uncontrolled traffic operating on VFR and violating them by flying at night, it could be swallowed by the swap and nobody would ever know. Part of the investigate would probably be to try and correlate known aircraft ownership with missing persons reports locally. At least, that's something I'd try....
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Red..paint.. I wonder if the gov is missing drone and isn't saying anything. At the size of these new drones there testing I wonder if one went astray.
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you can fly VFR at night.
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Thats where my 1/4 scale foker dr1 ended up.
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"There were many additional pieces exhibiting the same type of transfer marks; however, the small size of many prevented confirming their location on the airframe. There was a small piece of what appeared to be black anodized aluminum, which was found embedded in the left wing dry bay panel at the wing root between the spars. The origin of the metal remains unknown; and is not believed to have come from the accident airplane."
no bird made of aluminum that I know of.
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/655_1090514329_rc.jpg)
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Originally posted by Mini D
Bird strikes have occured over 10,000 feet. 3000 isn't all that high. Turkey Vulchers have been reported as high as 15,000 feet.
You are right about that...
"Bird Records
Taken from
The Bird Almanac
by David M. Bird, PhD
highest flying bird: Ruppell's griffon vulture at 11,274 meters (7 mi)"
Where do they put the Oxygen System
:confused:
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Maybe a bird...
Hitting a 10 lb. Canadian goose at 150 mph creates the same amount of energy as dropping a 1,000 lb. weight from the distance of 10 feet in the air.
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The paint and polymer statements tend to indicate it wasn't a bird... that's cool. I fail to see the leap in logic on the whole "drone" thing. The drones are not particularly small, especially when compared to a 208. Damage would have been extensive.... especially at 100+. It really seems to be more something along the lines of a weather balloon than anything else.
As for what a bird can do to a plane... I've seen an F-111 that hit a goose at Mach 1 (200 feet altitude). The pilot returned the plane to the base, but it was pretty much a total loss (took out all of the main body bulkheads). It missed the cockpit by 1 inch.
I've also seen a duck go through a 1 1/2" cast aluminum cone and punch a hole out the back where the aluminum was 2" thick. (once again a mach 1 bird strike). That one wasn't particularly fun to clean up.
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lol Nash.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
If it was uncontrolled traffic operating on VFR and violating them by flying at night, it could be swallowed by the swap and nobody would ever know. Part of the investigate would probably be to try and correlate known aircraft ownership with missing persons reports locally. At least, that's something I'd try....
Violating what by flying at night? You can fly VFR at night....
Terror
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Sorry, I was unclear, I meant a VFR pilot flying at night into controlled airspace and not announcing themselves.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Hitting a 10 lb. Canadian goose at 150 mph creates the same amount of energy as dropping a 1,000 lb. weight from the distance of 10 feet in the air.
Interesting point. I remember a Kingair out of Danbury CT that was landing that ended up taking out over 15 geese while landing. Trashed the engines - guy landed alright - but he looked like he went through a hailstorm of bowling balls.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Interesting point. I remember a Kingair out of Danbury CT that was landing that ended up taking out over 15 geese while landing. Trashed the engines - guy landed alright - but he looked like he went through a hailstorm of bowling balls.
My father related a story where he flew out of Minneapolis/St.Paul in a 4-engine turbo-prop plane (1965), just as the pilot got the gear up they struck a flock of geese, taking out 2 starboard engines. He said it was the only "white-knuckled" flight he'd had in 27 years of business flying. The pilot immediately turned the plane around and landed with the two port engines still spinning...Dad said it was odd how much they were "crabbing" (rudder/power ratio) when they came in for approach.
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I remember when this happened and it was huge news around here. Spanish Fort is on the opposite side of the bay from Mobile (7-8 miles I think maybe less) and the closest military bases to there are NAS Pensacola, Fort Rucker and Eglin AFB. Eglin and Ft. Rucker being the farthest east. Other than that there is another Air Force base in Biloxi but that is to the west.
There are all manner of things that happen around that area that come out of Eglin AFB that no one talks about so its not hard to believe that a drone could have been the culprit in what brought this plane down.
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Originally posted by Mini D
As for what a bird can do to a plane... a goose at Mach 1 (200 feet altitude). .
saw 10 pounds of crap go through a goose once .
Damn that was a mess.
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Actually.. at night.. you don't fly VFR - you fly it as S-VFR
Needs a separate license.
It allows night flying and reduced VMC conditions.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Bird strikes have occured over 10,000 feet. 3000 isn't all that high. Turkey Vulchers have been reported as high as 15,000 feet.
Sounds more like a weather balloon.
Those darn vulcers how I loath them hahaha
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Fishu,
Actually at night in the US flying under our FAR's you do not need SVFR to fly at night. You also do not need to contact any controler as long as you are not in controlled airspace.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Fishu,
Actually at night in the US flying under our FAR's you do not need SVFR to fly at night. You also do not need to contact any controler as long as you are not in controlled airspace.
He must have missed that chapter in George Orwells "1984" (http://www.culturedose.net/review.php?rid=10001391) :p
One day, Fishu suddenly realizes the U.S. is committing the most deadly of sins in a conformist atheist collective--questioning the State. Is what they're telling their people today the same as what they told them yesterday? Weren't they at war with someone else last year? How is it that food production is up, when the world has less to eat all the time? How can they really know what I'm thinking? [/size][/color]
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Originally posted by Maverick
Fishu,
Actually at night in the US flying under our FAR's you do not need SVFR to fly at night. You also do not need to contact any controler as long as you are not in controlled airspace.
Well I've figured you need also in US an additional license to fly (S)VFR at night, since it's alot different than flying at day.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Well I've figured you need also in US an additional license to fly (S)VFR at night, since it's alot different than flying at day.
Sort of...
To take off or land SVFR at night at a controled field you have to be IFR rated, IFR current, and your plane has to be IFR certified.
http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/14mar20010800/edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2003/14cfr91.157.htm
But like Mav said, if you're out flying in an uncotrolled area, you don't.
Can be a bit confusing.
On collisions, the things that "really" scare me about flying (other than a psycho student) are mid air collisions, bird strikes, and those damnable helium balloons that some people think are so fun to let fly away.
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Fishu,
You do not need any SVFR to take off at night including at a controlled airport as long as VFR conditions exist at that location. That means visibility has to meet VFR conditions. Darkness alone does not create IMC (instrument conditions) by itself. It just means glare isn't much of a problem and sunscreen won't be required. A special license is not required to fly at night. Neither is an "endorsement" needed. You do need to be "night current" (have the proper amount of take offs and landings at night in the required time frame prior to your next flight) to carry passengers at night. The only license needed is a private pilot license.
As long as you have a transponder, 2 way comunications you can fly VFR in controlled airspace into and out of airports.
IFR certification and an IFR equiped aircraft are also not needed to fly at night in controlled airspace around an airport, as long as it is not IFR weather.
Any airport with training FBO's have planes flying at night all the time. Right now I'm at an RV park at Hanscomb AFB (dual use airfield) near Boston and there are small airraft flying the pattern at night getting night curreency. There are a couple FBO's here training private pilots in what looks like C152's and Piper Tomahawks. As long as there isn't fog / rain they have been flying pretty steady here.
There are also a fair number of small jets and turbo props here for other airlines flying in and out of the field. A very active and nice field here.
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So are we missing any Predator drones? Or anything more advanced? Sounds like it hit something a whole lot firmer than a balloon.
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Originally posted by Reschke
I remember when this happened and it was huge news around here. Spanish Fort is on the opposite side of the bay from Mobile (7-8 miles I think maybe less) and the closest military bases to there are NAS Pensacola, Fort Rucker and Eglin AFB. Eglin and Ft. Rucker being the farthest east. Other than that there is another Air Force base in Biloxi but that is to the west.
There are all manner of things that happen around that area that come out of Eglin AFB that no one talks about so its not hard to believe that a drone could have been the culprit in what brought this plane down.
There's also a NAS Meridian, MS about 100 miles north of Mobile. Mobile is pretty much centrally located between Pensacola, Biloxi and the Meridian triangle it seems.
One possible explanation, other than the weather balloon theory (high possibility,) ...and is admittedly far fetched but not impossible...it could have been a coillision with a cruise missle drone.
Does anyone remember when Animal posted the pics of the red/orange colored Navy cruise missle drone on the beach in Puerto Rico? He was asking if anyone knew what it was and if it was live ordnance.
One time during conversation with a friend who's work involved traveling rural areas, he matter of factly stated he had seen a cruise missle following train tracks at low alt. I found that very strange, but what more could be said. It's not the kind of thing you see every day, but could have been that's what it was. They have a 400 mile range and follow landmarks plotted into the onboard computer, according to what I've read in magazines. And the drone picture Animal posted was of a reddish colored drone.
Les