Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Pongo on July 22, 2004, 11:02:49 AM
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See that several of the 9/11 terrorsts where pulled asside for detailed searches because they set off the metal alarms and the box cutters were still not found. They have it on video. Bloody hell. What do they pay those idiots?
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If they had found the box cutters what could they have done? They were legal back then.
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How does being pulled aside for setting off metal detector alarms equate to racial profiling?
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They were legal to have on a plane? Wow.
So instead of the department of homeland security and the patiot act they could have just sent a memo to not alow box cutters on planes anymore?
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Generally, back before 9/11, most airlines allowed knives with blade lengths of less than three inches. The FAA rule was under four inches, IIRC.
Passenger knives in excess of that length were sometimes (at the Captain's discretion) carried in the cockpit and returned to the passenger upon unloading.
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Originally posted by Pongo
They were legal to have on a plane? Wow.
So instead of the department of homeland security and the patiot act they could have just sent a memo to not alow box cutters on planes anymore?
They did. Where have you been hiding?
After they sent the memo, a guy brought explosive shoes onto a plane.
BTW, such a memo only prevents planes from being used in attacks. Grow up.
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Originally posted by Pongo
What do they pay those idiots?
And now they are "Federal employees", some how that made them smarter, they can never be fired and in a few years will retire with full pensions, paid for by those of us that pay taxes.
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Originally posted by Toad
Generally, back before 9/11, most airlines allowed knives with blade lengths of less than three inches. The FAA rule was under four inches, IIRC.
Passenger knives in excess of that length were sometimes (at the Captain's discretion) carried in the cockpit and returned to the passenger upon unloading.
Increadable. Thanks for the clerification Toad.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Increadable. Thanks for the clerification Toad.
Incredible? How so? It's not like it was ever really a problem until 9/11. When you have a group of fanatics willing to sacrifice themselves to hurt you, they're going to hurt you. Especially in a free and open society such as ours in America. Only real way to defeat these fanatics is to attack their fanaticism at the root. Stopping the sermons of hate in their schools and mosques is the only way to end this terrorism, short of killing them all that is.
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Originally posted by Pongo
They were legal to have on a plane? Wow.
So instead of the department of homeland security and the patiot act they could have just sent a memo to not alow box cutters on planes anymore?
Ding Ding Ding, My thoughts exactly
that and maybe enforce the laws that were allready there.
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well... we coulda put out a memo that didn't allow shoes on planes either or... simply, strip everyone and give em an airline "gown" like those spiffy hospital ones...
any president who doesn't implement this is playing into the hands of the terrorists.
lazs
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Is there a point behind this thread pongo? Seriously... I'm missing it.
Are you upset that the terrorist weren't caught? That they were allowed to bring box cutters onto an airplane? What?
And should it be policy to wait until a weapon is used to kill 3000 people before sending a memo asking that it not be allowed on airplanes anymore?
The homeland security bill was a horrible decision IMO. I've never supported it. One thing that wasn't a bad idea, however, was to require a drastic increase in airline security. There were rules in place, which made them easy to bypass. The question is given the curent set of a rules, just exactly what could a terrorist use as a weapon on an aircraft and how could it be prevented without driving all customers away.
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mini... Iam against a lot of the homeland security measures and the knee jerk airline security too... If you say that they need to be even more secure without driving customers away... well.... they allready drove me away... I will do just about anything to avoid an airport these days.
lazs
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And that's your choice. Any increase in security is going to drive some customers away. Fortunately, you have quite a few alternatives.
The problem with it being purely customer based is aparent. The ideal situation would be letting everyone just get on the plane and not worry about things. Somewhere between not caring at all and requiring people to wear a smok, there is a reasonable area. The airlines used to think it was in one part of the spectrum right up until 2 planes crashed into the World Trade Center buildings. Now they have to completely rethink things, wheather they like it or not.
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Prior to 9/11 I walked up to airport terminal to meet my wife. Realizing that I had brought my knive in with me and was about to go to the metal detector. I showed it to the inspector, he opend the knife and measured it on a rule they had on the xray machine. He said I was good to go and sent me on my way. At that time I thought, wow that is odd anyone can bring a knife on a plane???
Not sure how this fits into racial profiling. Im white, if I had been arabic would I have been stopped?? Would I care either way...not at all. I was fully prepaired to make the walk back to the truck, or let the inspector hold the knife until I gathered my wife. In todays environment however I wouldnt even stop at the inspector, it would be a quick trip back to the truck to drop off the knife.
RHIN0
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You also have to look that alot of people still carry small knives with thim, I know at my cosins school back in high school, most of the students(farmering community) allways had a hunting knife on them, Hell my cousin used to leave him shot gun in the gun rack of his pickup, If he lived closer to the city I am sure they would have arrested him for doing that.
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Mini, It has been revealed that there is securiy camera footage of two of the terrorists being searched in detail. Yet they were let on the plane with thier box cutters. The point of my thread is to bring that to light.
Cause its interesting.
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That doesn't really jive with the title of the thread pongo.
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That was the troll part.
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Pongo re: pay
They were not paid much pongo.
Homeland sec. I do not like all of the bill either,I hate what they are going to do at the dems. and repl.conventions.but why all the concern when enough people dont like it we can just vote it out, no guns ,no revolution, no bloodshed nothing.
Safe flying,with respect you are all crazy, recently my friends great grand ma [91 i believe] was pulled aside and searched,friends wife had to help her with clothes, shes white as white paint. Mean time 2 arab males were waved thru...why?
I have since learned that our gov.[ ya u right Bush admins.] will fine air lines 10000 dollars per person if on any one flight they check out more than 2 male arabs...why?
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The only thing that mighta rang some alarm bells is the eerie coincidence of like, 10 different guys on one flight all interested in box sculpture.
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Originally posted by Nash
The only thing that mighta rang some alarm bells is the eerie coincidence of like, 10 different guys on one flight all interested in box sculpture.
I dont recal any of the flights having 10 guys on them. there were 19 hijackers and 4 flights.
not all of them had knives and box cutters some of them had mace.....I'm sure some of them didnt even have a "weapon"
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Originally posted by Nash
The only thing that mighta rang some alarm bells is the eerie coincidence of like, 10 different guys on one flight all interested in box sculpture.
Do we know if the knives were even detected, as in seen by the security guys?
Also did the metal detector guys know who went on each flight? Did they check tickets?
Finally the knives were not illegal back then.
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Gee Gunslinger...
If I can't get all obtusively vague with generalities then, like, what fun is THAT?
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I thought ( trying to remember from 3 years ago) that some of the weapons were hidden on the planes. I remember hearing this immediately after, so they could have been speculation on the part of the media or reports that were proven wrong.
as far as knifes being allowed on flights. I always carry a pocket knife, always have, just another tool that it's good to have handy. I never had any problems with flying until after 9/11. mine has a 3" blade, they always measured it because it was close to the limit but I never was stopped or questioned about it.
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Hindsight is 20/20.
Who would have expected a terrorist to use innocent box cutters as a weapon?
Who would have expected them to bring their own pilots?
Who expected them to waste their hard-earned hostages by using their planes as guided missles? (look what happened when the passengers on the 4th plane DID learn of this--they fought back.)
Who expected 4 concurrent hijackings?
It is so easy to judge the actions of people before an event based on knowledge learned afterwords. But--
How many times did YOU ask about the logic of allowing box cutters on a commerical jet prior to 9/11/01, PONGO?
J_A_B
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My guess wrt to the creation of this post.
When I saw that video last night, it took a nano-second for it to get right under my skin. Made my blood boil watching these hotshots waltz through security, knowing now what was a mere hour away from occuring. Ya want something to blame. Some reason. Natural enough.
But... you can't point at anything. Or if ya can, you have to point at 200 things. Damn frustrating.
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Originally posted by Nash
My guess wrt to the creation of this post.
When I saw that video last night, it took a nano-second for it to get right under my skin. Made my blood boil watching these hotshots waltz through security, knowing now what was a mere hour away from occuring. Ya want something to blame. Some reason. Natural enough.
But... you can't point at anything. Or if ya can, you have to point at 200 things. Damn frustrating.
Yep.
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My personal worst fear since even before 911 has been terrorists assembling bombs in flight. I cant think its too hard to smuggle in some explosive materials in component in personal toiletries like toothpaste, shaving cream or cologne and bring in the required detonators or even timers in a cell phone, pda or camera. Of course you could use matches or a lighter - which the really the only useful point made in a recent movie... Then just go to the bathroom for a moment to mix it all up, explode it right there or maybe walk over to the cockpit or a point above the central fuel tanks.. Poof...
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Blowing up planes doesn't have enough shock value though.
IF they REALLY wanted a shock value attack that the US is pretty much undefended against it'd involve doing something like--walk into your local public elementary school and slit the throats of the first 20 or 30 kids you come across.
That's how terrorists work; when you have a limited amount of resources with which to conduct an attack, you do what is most likely to unsettlew the populace and inspire fear. Air bombings don't really do that because it's easy enough for 99% of the population to simply not fly, and hence not fear it.
J_A_B
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I heard something a while back about the gov inviting a ton of Hollywood writers to Washington to brief them on outrageous possibilities. Sure would like to see what they came up with.
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That's not a bad idea actually.
If you want to beat the terrorist, you must be prepared to think like one.
J_A_B
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I'm not sure if that was an average slip or a comedic dig.
You comparing Hollywood writers to terrorists? :D
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Good God... :(
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/US/resources/9.11.report/911Report_Ch1.pdf
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personally, I hate acrobat.... AND, like, 72 point type.
Might print this out at work.
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A writer may indeed have to think like a terrorist, though obviously for different reasons. Both the writer and the killer has to think up a scenario which will attract the attention--and perhaps stoke the fear--of the public at large. Shooting a random gas station attendant certainly won't long capture the attention of a public jaded towards such "routine" violence just as an action film about such a subject wouldn't be very interesting. If I'm not mistaken even the scenario of using airplanes to ram public buildings appeared in literature prior to the 9/11/01 attacks.
J_A_B
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There appears to be many people here that see this almost as an act of god. Unaviodable, unforseeable.
I dissagree with those people. If any one element of the US security services had been on the ball. Any one of them. With leadership. This would have been not unaviodable but impossible.
And we would still be saying how did those stupid arabs think the could get away with something like that?
So all the its no ones fault votes have been recorded. Put me down as thinking that the people of the united states were betrayed by the incompetence of the most expensive and extensive intelligence and security agencies and capabilities in the world.
And their leader.
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Originally posted by Nash
Gee Gunslinger...
If I can't get all obtusively vague with generalities then, like, what fun is THAT?
Nash you hitting the bottle tonight or pounding some beers at least. You sound alot more witty than usual! ;)
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I don't do that stuff no more... or nearly as often .
Lets see... I might be all hopped up on brocoli... could be it.
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Originally posted by Nash
I don't do that stuff no more... or nearly as often .
Lets see... I might be all hopped up on brocoli... could be it.
Brocoli is an antioxident (SP) and provides a good source of Iron. Maybe thats it!
STEMS DUDE THEY ARE THE BEST! BROCOLI STEMS ROCK!
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ah dang, the stems disgust me. It's a texture thing. I chop that mess right off. Just want the flowery goodness.
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Originally posted by Nash
ah dang, the stems disgust me. It's a texture thing. I chop that mess right off. Just want the flowery goodness.
and cover them (therfore discounting their vegie qualities) covering them with salt butter and cheese :)
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cheeze? Hell yah... Cheeze WHIZ baaaby! D
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Originally posted by Nash
cheeze? Hell yah... Cheeze WHIZ baaaby! D
DOUGH....Two things me and nash agree on tonight.....takes second look out window!
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Originally posted by Pongo
And their leader.
How could have Bush gotten the CIA and FBI to talk to each other and ease the flow of threat information? Oh wait, I know... But remember youre against that little piece of legislation, arent you?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
How could have Bush gotten the CIA and FBI to talk to each other and ease the flow of threat information? Oh wait, I know... But remember youre against that little piece of legislation, arent you?
I think Pongo was referring to the guy that was in charge of the country for 8 years just prior to the attack.
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Pongo, do you think the terrorist scum are stupid?
They aren't. They're quite crafty and they plan things years in advance. They test the system for weaknesses before actually attacking. If our airport security was "impossible" to get through, then the scumbags would simply have found some OTHER method to meet Allah and take a bunch of Americans with them. They're not stupid enough to waste limited resources on an attack that has no chance of success. Heck, look at their 9/11/01 attack plan--it had multiple layers of safeguards and redundancy built right in to ensure that it at least partially worked (And rememer, it wasn't flawless--one of the planes failed to reach its target).
It was indeed virtually inevitable. Maybe not the WTC attack specifically...but SOMETHING bad was going to happen. If a large group of individuals are determined to kill a lot of people and don't care if they lose their lives in the process, it isn't really possible to consistently stop them. Look at Isreal--superb security (some americans would call it a police state) yet they get suicide bombed regularly.
Men who want to live fighting men who want to die. This is what we're dealing with. You CAN'T defend against it 100%.
Yes we have stopped some of them, broken up some terrorist cells (those success stories don't seem to get the coverage a disaster gets), but....even if that 1% gets through, you still have people dying. When that small percent DOES get though....placing blame is pointless. All you can do is look at the holes in your net that were exploited, and close them, and try to anticipate their next move.
You CANNOT defend against this sort of thing consistently. The only possible way to defend it is to stamp it out at the source--destroy it completely.
You would blame the American governent for the actions of delusional madmen. Why not place the blame where it belongs? You're blaming the victim, no different than the old-yet-accurate metaphor of blaming a mugging victim for his being mugged. Blame the criminals, not the victim!
You can only stop some of them. You can't stop ALL them. We have been attacked before and we WILL be attacked again. It is only a matter of time.
Hindsight is 20/20. Foresight is not. Once again--where are all YOUR posts on the dangers of box cutters on commercial planes prior to 9/11/01?? It's awfully easy to dole out blame after the fact from the comfort of your armchair.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Toad
Passenger knives in excess of that length were sometimes (at the Captain's discretion) carried in the cockpit and returned to the passenger upon unloading.
...and then they banned sharp objects! ;):cool:
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Not going to read all that JAB but I am sure that its all good. Isreal identitied the danger of a plane that was under contol of terrorist in the 1970s and established procedures that under no circumstances would a plane be surrendered to terrorists. You aught not to use Isreal as an example. Stoping a woman with explosives strapped under her robes from entering a market and stoping a man with a knife(or 16! of them) passing through a secure check point to get on an aircraft are two entirely different things.
That is by definiation why we have leaders. So that the goverment will have direction that a majority aggree with and all the varios components of that goverment will work to common goals.
That so many individaul components of the FAA and the Security and intelligence services absolutly failed in thier primary role. The role that justifies thier very existance leads to the one thing they all have in common. Their Leader. And the leader befor him.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Their Leader. And the leader befor him.
And the leader before him.
And the leader before him.
And the leader before him.
And the leader before him.
And the leader before him.
And the leader before him.
And the leader before him.
And the leader before him.
The air transport security system has always been more "sizzle than steak". It a simple matter of the economics of securing a system that handles ~ 2 million passengers per day.
Back in 1980 it was clear that the US wasn't willing to pay for true security for air travel. That is, unwilling to pay for security on the order of what El Al practices. The US still isn't willing to pay that much.
The cost is in both money and time, btw. You'd all have to show up much earlier at the airport and fares would go up dramatically to pay for that level of security.
To try and hang the blame on a person or an administration is simply way off base. The "blame" lies with all of us collectively. We simply won't pay or put up with the aggravation of that level of security. That's why there's always going to be the "terrorist" risk.