Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Dune on July 22, 2004, 12:49:31 PM
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When One Is Enough
By AMY RICHARDS as told to AMY BARRETT
Published: July 18, 2004
I grew up in a working-class family in Pennsylvania not knowing my father. I have never missed not having him. I firmly believe that, but for much of my life I felt that what I probably would have gained was economic security and with that societal security. Growing up with a single mother, I was always buying into the myth that I was going to be seduced in the back of a pickup truck and become pregnant when I was 16. I had friends when I was in school who were helping to rear nieces and nephews, because their siblings, who were not much older, were having babies. I had friends from all over the class spectrum: I saw the nieces and nephews on the one hand and country-club memberships and station wagons on the other. I felt I was in the middle. I had this fear: What would it take for me to just slip?
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Now I'm 34. My boyfriend, Peter, and I have been together three years. I'm old enough to presume that I wasn't going to have an easy time becoming pregnant. I was tired of being on the pill, because it made me moody. Before I went off it, Peter and I talked about what would happen if I became pregnant, and we both agreed that we would have the child.
I found out I was having triplets when I went to my obstetrician. The doctor had just finished telling me I was going to have a low-risk pregnancy. She turned on the sonogram machine. There was a long pause, then she said, ''Are you sure you didn't take fertility drugs?'' I said, ''I'm positive.'' Peter and I were very shocked when she said there were three. ''You know, this changes everything,'' she said. ''You'll have to see a specialist.''
My immediate response was, I cannot have triplets. I was not married; I lived in a five-story walk-up in the East Village; I worked freelance; and I would have to go on bed rest in March. I lecture at colleges, and my biggest months are March and April. I would have to give up my main income for the rest of the year. There was a part of me that was sure I could work around that. But it was a matter of, Do I want to?
I looked at Peter and asked the doctor: ''Is it possible to get rid of one of them? Or two of them?'' The obstetrician wasn't an expert in selective reduction, but she knew that with a shot of potassium chloride you could eliminate one or more.
Having felt physically fine up to this point, I got on the subway afterward, and all of a sudden, I felt ill. I didn't want to eat anything. What I was going through seemed like a very unnatural experience. On the subway, Peter asked, ''Shouldn't we consider having triplets?'' And I had this adverse reaction: ''This is why they say it's the woman's choice, because you think I could just carry triplets. That's easy for you to say, but I'd have to give up my life.'' Not only would I have to be on bed rest at 20 weeks, I wouldn't be able to fly after 15. I was already at eight weeks. When I found out about the triplets, I felt like: It's not the back of a pickup at 16, but now I'm going to have to move to Staten Island. I'll never leave my house because I'll have to care for these children. I'll have to start shopping only at Costco and buying big jars of mayonnaise. Even in my moments of thinking about having three, I don't think that deep down I was ever considering it.
The specialist called me back at 10 p.m. I had just finished watching a Boston Pops concert at Symphony Hall. As everybody burst into applause, I watched my cellphone vibrating, grabbed it and ran into the lobby. He told me that he does a detailed sonogram before doing a selective reduction to see if one fetus appears to be struggling. The procedure involves a shot of potassium chloride to the heart of the fetus. There are a lot more complications when a woman carries multiples. And so, from the doctor's perspective, it's a matter of trying to save the woman this trauma. After I talked to the specialist, I told Peter, ''That's what I'm going to do.'' He replied, ''What we're going to do.'' He respected what I was going through, but at a certain point, he felt that this was a decision we were making. I agreed.
When we saw the specialist, we found out that I was carrying identical twins and a stand alone. My doctors thought the stand alone was three days older. There was something psychologically comforting about that, since I wanted to have just one. Before the procedure, I was focused on relaxing. But Peter was staring at the sonogram screen thinking: Oh, my gosh, there are three heartbeats. I can't believe we're about to make two disappear. The doctor came in, and then Peter was asked to leave. I said, ''Can Peter stay?'' The doctor said no. I know Peter was offended by that.
Two days after the procedure, smells no longer set me off and I no longer wanted to eat nothing but sour-apple gum. I went on to have a pretty seamless pregnancy. But I had a recurring feeling that this was going to come back and haunt me. Was I going to have a stillbirth or miscarry late in my pregnancy?
I had a boy, and everything is fine. But thinking about becoming pregnant again is terrifying. Am I going to have quintuplets? I would do the same thing if I had triplets again, but if I had twins, I would probably have twins. Then again, I don't know.
From: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/07/18/magazine/18LIVES.html
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...with a shot of potassium chloride you could eliminate one or more.
So clean and efficient.
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Yup.
Kill your neighbors sons or daughters and you go to prison.
Kill your own and it's alright.
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she couldn't be bothered ....
just another selfish beetch in a world filled with them
"Peter" needs to grow a pair ...
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Right reaction:
"Disgusting...unbelievable"
Left reaction:
"La la la la laaa, oooohhh, look at those pretty birdies!" {looks the other way, pretends not to see}
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You guys do not get it. It is all about choice.
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Disgusting. Abortion SHOULD NOT be used as birth control.
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Too bad she didn't kill herself while she was at it.
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Originally posted by banana
Disgusting. Abortion SHOULD NOT be used as birth control.
Why not? Isn't all this about well being of the mother? She would not feel good with three kids, so who are you to take this choice from her?
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The choice came before Peter did.
Glove
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Originally posted by mietla
Why not? Isn't all this about well being of the mother? She would not feel good with three kids, so who are you to take this choice from her?
[reagan]Well, there you go again.[/reagan]
Mietla, I am pro-life. Her life was not in danger, just her lifestyle. I hope that choice haunts her for the rest of her(hopefully short) life.
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Originally posted by ra
So clean and efficient.
yeah. just like Dr. Mengele
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Right reaction:
"Disgusting...unbelievable"
Left reaction:
"La la la la laaa, oooohhh, look at those pretty birdies!" {looks the other way, pretends not to see}
Painting with a broom aren't we Rip.
I'm from the 'left' and find her disgusting and her want to destroy two of three babies barbaric and reprehensible.
This is far out of the norm when trying to debate the abortion rights issue, kind of like the argument that it's the pencil that makes me mispell rather than my hand. Extreem examples only muddy the debate.
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I am discusted with her, And would never want this to happen when i have kids, But it is still there choice.
Right or wrong, I don't wanna take choice away from anyone.
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Devils advocate (Because I'm on the fence with abortion, an issue I can see both sides arguements)
Why not have a trial period, say, 3 years. If it doesn't work out, drown them. Murder is murder once a heart beat begins...
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she would be better retro-aborted after the birth of the 3.
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I dont believe the story.
Its too inflamitory. What human being would kill two of thier kids, recount it so clinicaly then start to think of having more. Its just too far fetched. When a story is too good to be true ..I think its probably not true. And as support for anti abortionists..this story is too good to be true.
But asside from that. Maybe you hotshots should start dealing with your > 30% child poverty and then tackle the evil of abortion.
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Originally posted by ra
So clean and efficient.
Partial Birth Abortion
Guided by ultrasound, the abortionist grabs the baby's leg with forceps.
The baby's leg is pulled out into the birth canal.
The abortionist delivers the baby's entire body, except for the head.
The abortionist jams scissors into the baby's skull. The scissors are then opened to enlarge the hole.
The scissors are removed and a suction catheter is inserted. The child's brains are sucked out, causing the skull to collapse. The dead baby is then removed.
Fact is stranger than fiction.
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Originally posted by MrLars
I'm from the 'left' and find her disgusting and her want to destroy two of three babies barbaric and reprehensible.
But you still would allow it and leave it to mother's discretion, right?
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Originally posted by Pongo
But asside from that. Maybe you hotshots should start dealing with your > 30% child poverty and then tackle the evil of abortion.
Better dead than poor. We are actually doing those kids a favor saving them from poverty.
If this is your justification, ALL children in India, Afganistan and man more placed should be killed.
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Yes I would still alow her to make this choice, the same as i alow anyone to make a choice i dont like. It is still legal, and i still think abortion should be legal no mater how evil i think it is I think it is more evil to force my morals on someone else, While the child is in the body of the women, I would feel it is more immoral, to take control of her live and force her to do what i think is moraly right.
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Abortion is the lesser of 2 evils. abortion of the child, or slavery of the mother untill the child is born, Well slavery could give a whole new role to prision offecers or a new reason to open mential institution as places to send women, Untill there moral job is done.
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story makes me sick.
some "humans" just have no soul. not just a "parent to be" but a doctor who willingly would learn to do such a procedure, just for birth control.
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Originally posted by Trell
I think it is more evil to force my morals on someone else,
what's your position on murder, robbery or theft
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Originally posted by mietla
what's your position on murder, robbery or theft
Whats your position on smoking guncontrol and the enviroment
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Originally posted by mietla
She would not feel good with three kids
so "hurting peoples feelings" is worse than physical harm?
there is a morning radio show that has been swearing that for 5 years now, i have always agreed, but never seen someone actually state it that way.
WTF is wrong with people?!?!?!
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Originally posted by Trell
Whats your position on smoking guncontrol and the enviroment
get the government out of it.
You've left my question unanswered.
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So you are against the govement saving people becasue of smoking, guns, and poluting the enviroment, but for them saving a fetus by inslaving women?
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I think convenience should never become a factor when determining to abort a child. Sure, the pregnency might make life difficult for the woman, but that's for 9 months(the pregnency). If she feels that she won't be able to raise them due to certain circumstances, there is always the option of putting them up for adoption. It may be hard, but it's better than having to kill.
It's discusting that to save some trouble and inconvenience, people are willing to take away a life of one who is completly helpless.
Another thing that disturbs me about abortion is no one knows who the child aborted may grow up to be. Possibly an Olympic athlete, a great scientist, a future president? If you looked at the circumstances of Beetoven's birth, many today might say it would be best to abort his birth due to the high possiblility of him having a hard life. But look at what he has contributed to humanity. To think all that might not have existed today if abortion was possible and as available during his times.
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murder, robbery or theft are all moraly and legaly wrong, they are against someone else.
Abortion is against the women her self, She will have to live with it for the rest of her life. Trying to say it is not her choice
is like saying the women is a slave to the people. might as well chain all women up as soon as pregncy has been astablished. to save the child from what the women may do.
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I belive abortion is moraly wrong, And I will tell you that I could never live with a women that did this to a child we may have created.
I could not live with the women, but i would not take away her right of choice
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Straw man!!!!!
Bad situation no doubt. Hard to find anything but fault in the woman's decision. That's why it's a straw man.
Keep abortion legal, keep telling people that there are better options.
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Originally posted by Trell
murder, robbery or theft are all moraly and legaly wrong, they are against someone else.
Abortion is against the women her self, She will have to live with it for the rest of her life. Trying to say it is not her choice
is like saying the women is a slave to the people. might as well chain all women up as soon as pregncy has been astablished. to save the child from what the women may do.
So stoping a childbirth, which is comprised of living cells, which in a short amount of time will have begun making specific cells for organs of the body, is not murder? Just because something that has a full potential for life is still developing in a womb makes it comparable to an unwanted growth on the woman? It tears me up inside to think that people view unborn children as nothing more than that. The child has the full potential for life, yet it has no identity other than a growth in side a womans body.
Sure, the woman has to live with her decision for the rest of her life. Small price to pay. The child never even got a chance for life...
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Weavling, As much as we can go round and round with this argument, I know neither one of us will change our minds on this argument. So I will leave this argument with you at this.
Trying to argue if abortion should or should not be alowed, is like arguing if there is a god or not.
No one ever wins.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Straw man!!!!!
Bad situation no doubt. Hard to find anything but fault in the woman's decision. That's why it's a straw man.
Keep abortion legal, keep telling people that there are better options.
If someone could do that, how could they right about it? But maybe Im just in dream land.
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Ahh, the old take an extreme case so we can paint the issue with a broad brush thread. Been here, done that.
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Originally posted by Trell
murder, robbery or theft are all moraly and legaly wrong, they are against someone else.
you've said that pushing your morals on someone else is evil, and that's how you justified a support for abortion.
Wonder why you are against the other things?
Abortion is against the women her self,
that's patently not true.
Trying to say it is not her choice
is like saying the women is a slave to the people
Pregnancy was her choice. I know that you'll argue in a general case, but let's narrow it down to this particular case. She did choose to get pregnant.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Ahh, the old take an extreme case so we can paint the issue with a broad brush thread. Been here, done that.
not really. We are talking about a very specific case. A woman killed two of her kids for convenience (nothing else) and against the wishes of the father.
And it is still ok with you?
What would you do if you were the father?
MT, care to answer those two questions too?
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Haha, her boyfriends name is Peter... :rofl
Aborting two, thats what adoption is for, there are people out there who want a baby, because they can't physically have one or are too old, or are not fertile...
:rolleyes:
Her boyfriends name is Peter... :lol
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Originally posted by mietla
you've said that pushing your morals on someone else is evil, and that's how you justified a support for abortion.
Wonder why you are against the other things?,
Then Y are you not against smokine, guns or people poluting the enviroment?
second hand smoke kills, there are accidents with guys that kills, and polututing the enviroment kills,
So are you saying that anyone that smokes near anyone is the same as some one that murders?
Pregnancy was her choice. I know that you'll argue in a general case, but let's narrow it down to this particular case. She did choose to get pregnant. [/B]
And she chose to not be pregnant,
You are trying to claim that a woman getting an aportion is like walking next door and killing her neighbor.
I disagree.
And if i was the father, I would distance my self from the women if she chose to get an abortion.
I can see my self never talking to the woman again, and never forgiving her, but in my opinion forcing the women to following through with the pregentcy
is worse.
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I find her choice even worse becasuse she was allready folowing through with the pregency, of 1,
Adoption would have been better
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Originally posted by Trell
Then Y are you not against smokine, guns or people poluting the enviroment?
second hand smoke kills, there are accidents with guys that kills, and polututing the enviroment kills,
nonsense. Also, just because I allow certain things to be illegal does not mean that I'm for delegalization of everything. It's just silly conclusion.
You are trying to claim that a woman getting an aportion is like walking next door and killing her neighbor.
yes
And if i was the father, I would distance my self from the women if she chose to get an abortion.
I can see my self never talking to the woman again, and never forgiving her, but in my opinion forcing the women to following through with the pregentcy
is worse. [/B]
that's it?
she asks you to leave the room because she wants to murder your child, and you obediently leave and "distance" yourself?
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Originally posted by mietla
not really. We are talking about a very specific case. A woman killed two of her kids for convenience (nothing else) and agains the wishes of the father.
And this is not an extreme case?
And it is still ok with you?
I do not agree with it, because it is an extreme case. By extreme I mean the factors, how far along and why.
I have mentioned this before. When I met my wife, she had a son who has duchenne muscular dystrophy, it is the worst kind and the male is the only one who can get this form. Most of it's victims are dead by 20, and most cannot even feed themselves by the age of 15. There is no cure in sight and no drugs that can slow the process. We were told of a test that could be administered. The first test to find out if it is a male or female, the second test(if a male)would determine if he had the fatal disease. This test can be done early, but comes with a high chance of a miscarriage, it is recommended at 16 weeks. We made the choice to have the test as recommended, because if the fetus did not have the disease, we did not want any harm done. We also made the choice not to bring someone into the world with such a disease. Thankfully it never came down to that, our prayers were answered and we went on to have two healthy girls. Now when they grow older, we will have to explain to them that if they have a boy, it has a 95% of having the disease. And they will have to discuss having children and the choices that can be made with anyone they decide to marry. At some point they may be faced with the same decision, and I hope the government is not making it for them. Why would you think that government should should get involved and make such a sensitive family decision?
What would you do if you were the father?
First of all, before getting into a situation of conception, I would bring up the issue of choice and where she stood on that. If I were in the situation(like him) where I wanted the other children, I would ask her to have them and draw up paperwork taking full responsibility for them. That seems to be one of her main issues.
Each case is different. Is it ok in some cases but not in others? Where do you draw the line? The far left will say choice no matter the situation, the far right will say no choice no matter the situation. There seems to be no middle ground in choice, so I decide for choice.
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Originally posted by Pongo
What human being would kill two of thier kids, recount it so clinicaly then start to think of having more.
it may be fake, but just to answer your question- one who has been programed her whole life to believe it's a decision not a baby and that there is nothing wrong with it. a nice brainwashing to de-activate her conscience.
unfortunately for her(fortunately for any future babies she becomes pregnant with), at some point most womens (at least those I know personally enough to discus this sort of thing) conscience will eventually over-ride the programing and they realize what they've done.
of course there are no shortage of them who seem to have no conscience and have many ( I know one women in her late 30's who's had over 10) abortions just because it's so hard to remember those pills.
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Pure narcissism at its worst.
Do not feel sorry for the 2 wonderfully made babies, they are safe in the arms of their creator.Rather feel sorry for human kind as it will now be another 175 years before someone else invents the cure for cancer.
Feel sorry for the baby that is left,as one day he will have to deal with it one way or another.
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some of you amaze me..
no wonder the world get more screwed up with each soft minded generation, drifting through life, afraid to take a stand against anything and make waves
pathetic
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Well, I guess that makes me a murderer then. *sigh*
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Ok Dune, you posted this bad boy lets hear your take on the situation.
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Originally posted by banana
Disgusting. Abortion SHOULD NOT be used as birth control.
No matter how you slice it, abortion is birth control.
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I feel sick....I really do.
Alot you have stated that yes abortion is murder.....yet you say its a choice.
"i cant raise three kids on my own"
THAN YOU SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON THE PILL OR WORN A FREAKIN HAT YOU STUPID B****!
This is iresponsability ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT
You guys want to write this off as sounding fake....but serisously and HONESTLY ask yourself how improbable it really is.
If she's allready having one kid why not have all three and adopt the other two out. Do you know how many parents cant have kids that want them and would LOVE to adopt twins?
This world is truely an evil place. Me and my wife (then girlfriend) discussed this option and decided against it. I look at my son every day and thank god that he gave me the wisdom and courage to make the right decision.
Fetus have heartbeats and come out to be the greatest gift we have.....to inject them w/ drugs and kill them in the womb and stop their heart beats live on sonogram.....that's just wrong
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Hmmm... Maybe your god didn't give as much wisdom or courage to Amy.
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To each their own.
-SW
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To Stuka, since he asked (and to think that you drank my beer! ;)), here's my take.
Abortion - Do I support it? As a general rule, no. Do I believe that there are occasions it's a good idea? Yes.
Rape, molestation? Yeah, I cannot hold it against some woman for that.
A one night stand and the guy wants to raise the baby? Then I am against the woman who can abort it without a care for the father's wishes.
In the case of a deformed fetus? If they tell you that your baby is going to grow up deformed? All I can tell you is this. They said my niece had a hole in her heart, a deformed skull and wouldn't live to see her first birthday. A year and a half later and she is the most beautiful, fun, smart, well-formed child you've ever seen. Were we blessed by God? Yes, I believe so. But, regardless of what you believe, it just goes to show that you can't always discount your chicks before they hatch.
Having said all that, this is a woman who aborted two children because she didn't want the hassle. Well, if you don't want them, give them up for adoption. She could aford the birth, she aforded the birth of one, so get the volume discount and have all three. There are people disperate for kids who would die to have just one, much less three. Let them have the chance to adopt them.
To me, this is one of the most heartless, callous, saddening things I've ever read.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
All your scroll wheel are belong to I.
you are a bastage~!:rolleyes:
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The world is already overpopulated and you grown men are crying about abortions!?
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Originally posted by mora
The world is already overpopulated and you grown men are crying about abortions!?
overpopulated by who's standards?
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By all the standards there is, at the current rate of natural resource spending the population should be cut drastically.
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Originally posted by mora
By all the standards there is at the current rate of natural resource spending there's the population should be cut drastically.
in china maybe.....we have more than enough food to go around that we are paying farmers not to grow it.
There are still many undeveloped places in the US were Millions of poeple could thrive.
as far as natural recources go should that be a matter of technology and not population.
If this was the 19th century and the farm could only grow so much food I'd agree with you. but aborting kids because we dont want our lifestyle to change. Isnt there many familys who cant have kids that would love to adopt How would giving them children make this world any different?
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Originally posted by Dune
To Stuka, since he asked (and to think that you drank my beer! ;)), here's my take.
Abortion - Do I support it? As a general rule, no. Do I believe that there are occasions it's a good idea? Yes.
Rape, molestation? Yeah, I cannot hold it against some woman for that.
A one night stand and the guy wants to raise the baby? Then I am against the woman who can abort it without a care for the father's wishes.
In the case of a deformed fetus? If they tell you that your baby is going to grow up deformed? All I can tell you is this. They said my niece had a hole in her heart, a deformed skull and wouldn't live to see her first birthday. A year and a half later and she is the most beautiful, fun, smart, well-formed child you've ever seen. Were we blessed by God? Yes, I believe so. But, regardless of what you believe, it just goes to show that you can't always discount your chicks before they hatch.
Having said all that, this is a woman who aborted two children because she didn't want the hassle. Well, if you don't want them, give them up for adoption. She could aford the birth, she aforded the birth of one, so get the volume discount and have all three. There are people disperate for kids who would die to have just one, much less three. Let them have the chance to adopt them.
To me, this is one of the most heartless, callous, saddening things I've ever read.
Nicely done Dune, so when are we getting together to do some shooting, ill buy the beer this time.