Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Canaris on July 26, 2004, 09:27:41 AM
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I went researcing the ki84 the other day and found out there were 3 different models of it.
The Ki84a had 2x12.7mm and 2x20mm
The ki84b had 4x20mms
The ki84c had 2x30mms and 2x20mms
Does anyone know how many were actually made of each model?
Canaris
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3,382 Total, Not including prototypes,etc, Not sure about #'s specific to each model.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/147_1090853104_hayate.jpg)
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Thnx cooley for the info.
Was hoping someone would know about how many too each model.
Canaris
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There were 3,514 Ki-84's built.
About 3,000 wer Ki-84-I-Ko (two 20mm and two 12.7mm) and about 500 were Ki-84-I-Otsu (four 20mm)
It seems that none of the two 20mm and two 30mm armed Ki-84s made it into service and only a few may have been built.
EDIT:
By comparison there were 410 N1K2-Js built and just 275 C.205s built.
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Originally posted by Karnak
By comparison there were 410 N1K2-Js built
yet 30% of the arena here is niks :aok
(95% of stats are made up ;))
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Thanks guys for the info.
I had went researching on it because it seems that a lot of peeople want it to be put in.
Im really hoping that it wont be put in.
Reasons why it should not be put in.
1. By what you guys wrote on the amount made that it shows it wasnt mass produced.
2. Why do we need more late war aircraft, we should be getting more early war aircraft.
3. It would replace the la7, nik, spit, and typh all in one.
If it was put in, almost everyone will be flying it.
Canaris
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Originally posted by Canaris
Thanks guys for the info.
I had went researching on it because it seems that a lot of peeople want it to be put in.
Im really hoping that it wont be put in.
Reasons why it should not be put in.
1. By what you guys wrote on the amount made that it shows it wasnt mass produced.
2. Why do we need more late war aircraft, we should be getting more early war aircraft.
3. It would replace the la7, nik, spit, and typh all in one.
If it was put in, almost everyone will be flying it.
Canaris
People who play the CT and SEA would greatly appreciate it's addition.
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Originally posted by Canaris
Thanks guys for the info.
I had went researching on it because it seems that a lot of peeople want it to be put in.
Im really hoping that it wont be put in.
Reasons why it should not be put in.
1. By what you guys wrote on the amount made that it shows it wasnt mass produced.
2. Why do we need more late war aircraft, we should be getting more early war aircraft.
3. It would replace the la7, nik, spit, and typh all in one.
If it was put in, almost everyone will be flying it.
Canaris
The ostwind wasn't mass produced and we have it.
And I agree with Storch. Would be a good plane to have. Although there is several that we need to get before the Ki.
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Originally posted by Canaris
1. By what you guys wrote on the amount made that it shows it wasnt mass produced.
:confused:
Pray tell, what the heck do you think mass produced would be?
The one year production total for the Ki-84 is higher than the one year production total for any other Japanese aircraft.
It most certainly was mass produced. 3,500 is respectable for one and a half years of production. That is a larger number than most of the aircraft in AH right now.
Originally posted by Canaris
3. It would replace the la7, nik, spit, and typh all in one.
It's performance is not nearly on that level. It's firepower is a bit less than the Spitfire Mk IX. It's speed is well shy of the La-7 and Typhoon. It is less forgiving than the N1K2-J, and likely much poorer in the verticle.
It's not the bogeyman.
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Originally posted by Canaris
1. By what you guys wrote on the amount made that it shows it wasnt mass produced.
Please, define "mass production".
3000+ aircraft is "mass production" by all accounts in my book.
There should be no WW2 aircraft excluded from AH.
We have perk system to balance the number.
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Ki-84-I-Ko = freebie aircraft with a low ENY.
Ki-84-I-Otsu = perk aircraft for about 10 perk points
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looks like a cross between a 190 and a nik
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The KI-84 would be nice. In AW days it was 1 of the best fighters in the big pac.It was fast and could turn on a dime.
Panman:cool:
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old beef.
the old FM made it an uber plane. if it is released then it better be tweaked properly. it used to outclimb 109's and outrun FW's
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The Ki-84 Hayate was a good plane. Built to replace the Ki-43, the first prototype was built in '43. By the end of '44 1,670 were built. Considering that production started in April of '44, I'd say that is mass production. The numbers I find are that 3,382 aircraft, excluding pre-series and service trials aircraft, were built. I also find that all models were powered by a 2,000 hp Ha-45 (type 4) engine giving it a top speed of 388 mph at just over 21k. Good rook plane :). I'd like to see it added eventually.
Ki-84-I-Ko--2 20mm and 2 12.7mm
Ki-84-I-Otsu--4 20mm and 2 12.7mm
Ki-84-I-Hei--2 30mm and 2 20mm--this plane was a specialized buff interceptor but very few were built
Climb rate was 3,790 ft/min and max range was 1,025 miles.
Please feel free to correct any errors.
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388mph was the speed attained by the first prototype powered by a 1900hp engine. The second prototype, with some changes, attained 392mph with the same engine.
There are no surviving Japanese test documents for the 1990hp production model with cleaned up details.
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I think it would all depend on the corelation between speed and alt. If the Hayate is fast on the deck, it'll be a monster. Otherwise, it'll simply draw some players away from the Spit and N1k2. I imagine it'll be a top 5 plane in the MA, but will by no means "replace" the La-7, Spit and N1K2.
-Sik
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The Warbirds version of it was pretty dominant, there'd be a bunch of em in the MA, and it may reduce the overall percentage of La7/N1K/Spit9s we see but certainly not replace them all.
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Originally posted by xBarrelx
The Ki-84 Hayate was a good plane. Built to replace the Ki-43, the first prototype was built in '43. By the end of '44 1,670 were built. Considering that production started in April of '44, I'd say that is mass production. The numbers I find are that 3,382 aircraft, excluding pre-series and service trials aircraft, were built. I also find that all models were powered by a 2,000 hp Ha-45 (type 4) engine giving it a top speed of 388 mph at just over 21k. Good rook plane :). I'd like to see it added eventually.
Ki-84-I-Ko--2 20mm and 2 12.7mm
Ki-84-I-Otsu--4 20mm and 2 12.7mm
Ki-84-I-Hei--2 30mm and 2 20mm--this plane was a specialized buff interceptor but very few were built
Climb rate was 3,790 ft/min and max range was 1,025 miles.
Please feel free to correct any errors.
The only problem with it is that in rl it was was very unreliable due to lack of materials and poor workmanship in general. Pilots never knew how their rides would perform, or if it would even run, from day to day.
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Originally posted by slimm50
The only problem with it is that in rl it was was very unreliable due to lack of materials and poor workmanship in general. Pilots never knew how their rides would perform, or if it would even run, from day to day.
It would still be a welcome addition to us IJF afficionados. The Japanese plane set is woefully deficient. IL-2 will soon release it's excellent Pac set AH should be ready to counter.
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Originally posted by slimm50
The only problem with it is that in rl it was was very unreliable due to lack of materials and poor workmanship in general. Pilots never knew how their rides would perform, or if it would even run, from day to day.
That is made up for by always getting a mediocre Ki-84 that has an engine that only puts out 1900hp and loses power faster as altitude increases.
The production Ki-84 could certainly do over 410mph and probably over 420mph at 20,000ft. However, the only Japanese data available is from the first two prototypes with a greatly inferior engine and that is what gets put into sims.
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http://www.tgplanes.com/planfile.asp?idplane=94
below is aces from each country
http://www.tgplanes.com/pilots.asp
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I'd rather see the Oscar in AH.
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I have been waiting for the Ki-84 since tour 1...
HTC doesn't put planes in because of production numbers, But I would agree production numbers make a good arguement on what plane types should be in the game. That is just MY opinion!
The cannon armed f4u was limited to under 40???
RAS from AW got me addicted to the Ki-84. (Some Pinhead named "Fidel" taught me to perfect my skills in it) THAT was my primary plane then the 110, and the A-26. In AH the 110 is my main ride 99% of the time. Soon as the Ki-84 gets here, I'll park my 110 in the hanger so all the Rooks and Knights can keeps her polished and ready at all times.
NUTTZ
P.S. HiTech I nowhere asked WHEN?:)
Originally posted by Karnak
There were 3,514 Ki-84's built.
About 3,000 wer Ki-84-I-Ko (two 20mm and two 12.7mm) and about 500 were Ki-84-I-Otsu (four 20mm)
It seems that none of the two 20mm and two 30mm armed Ki-84s made it into service and only a few may have been built.
EDIT:
By comparison there were 410 N1K2-Js built and just 275 C.205s built.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Ki-84-I-Ko = freebie aircraft with a low ENY.
Ki-84-I-Otsu = perk aircraft for about 10 perk points
got my vote! but raise the Ki-84-I-Otsu perk value to 15 or 20..
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
got my vote! but raise the Ki-84-I-Otsu perk value to 15 or 20..
The only change was removing the two 12.7mm Ho-103 machine guns and their 700 rounds from the cowl and putting two 20mm Ho-5 cannon with 150 rounds each in the same space.
It doesn't justify that much of a price increase.
Also, I was matching it against the F4U-1C.;)
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If the ki84 is put in it should be more than the the f4u4 and maybe the spit 14.
Ki84 got better guns and speed comparable to the f4u4 and spit 14.
I would rather see the ki 84 be perked a little above the spit 14. The ki84 is definately better than the spit 14 and comparable to the tempest.
Canaris
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Originally posted by Canaris
The ki84 is definately better than the spit 14 and comparable to the tempest.
Canaris
I dissagree (Circle gets the square)
-Sik
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Originally posted by Canaris
If the ki84 is put in it should be more than the the f4u4 and maybe the spit 14.
Ki84 got better guns and speed comparable to the f4u4 and spit 14.
I would rather see the ki 84 be perked a little above the spit 14. The ki84 is definately better than the spit 14 and comparable to the tempest.
Canaris
That's laughable.
It has two Ho-5 20mm cannon with 150 rounds each, one in each wing.
It has two Ho-103 12.7mm machine guns each with 350 rounds mounted in the cowl.
If you want to play around with these guns in AH, fly the Ki-61-I-Tei that we have now. It is the same exact gun package, except the machine guns and cannons are reversed in position and the Ki-61 carries less ammo.
You'll find that the two Hispano Mk II 20mm cannon and two 50 caliber Browning machine guns on the Spitfire Mk XIV are superior in both striking power and ease of attaining hits. The six 50 caliber Browning machine guns on the F4U-4 may not hit quite as hard, but they are far easier to hit with.
Maximum Speed Using WEP at Sea Level:
Ki-84-1-Ko: ~350mph (guesstimate, it could be anywhere from 320mph to 365mph)
Spitfire Mk XIV: 358mph
F4U-4: 378mph
Best Speed at Best Altitude Using WEP:
Ki-84-I-Ko: 392mph (there is a very small outside chance that it might be as high as 420mph)
Spitfire Mk XIV: 448mph
F4U-4: 445mph
Turning Performance:
Ki-84-I-Ko: About like a Spitfire Mk IX, but with a vicious unannounced stall.
Spitfire Mk XIV: Better than a Spitfire Mk IX to the left, worse to the right.
F4U-4: About the same as the F4U-1D.
Climb Rate:
Ki-84-I-Ko: 3,750fpm
Spitfire Mk XIV: Greater than 4,500fpm
F4U-4: Greater than 4,000fpm
(Note: Climb rate is a good indicator of acceleration)
High Speed Handling:
Ki-84-I-Ko: Ailerons become very heavy. Elevators compress.
Spitfire Mk XIV: Ailerons become heavy. Elevators remain light and responsive.
F4U-4: Ailerons and elevators remain responsive. Exceptional roll rate.
There is no way you can seriously claim the Ki-84 is better than the Spitfire MK XIV and F4U-4.
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If the Ki 84 is put in with the 4x20mms or the Ki 84 with 2x30mms and 2x20mms it will surely be better than the f4u4 and spit 14.
Those two Ki84s have guns comparable to the tempest and speed pretty close. The Ki 84 is much better plane compared to the f4u4 in turning wise.
The ki 84 is better turner than the spit 14, i easily out turn spit 14s with my 38 which proves spit 14 cant turn as well as a spit 9. Spit 9s are more of a challange for my 38. The spit 14 handles more like a pony. So the Ki 84 definately turns better than the spit 14 and has better guns but speed is comparable.
Canaris
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The odds of a Ki-84-I-Otsu with four 20mm cannon being added are small.
The Ki-84-I with the two 20mm and two 30mm cannon did not enter service and so will not be added.
The Ki-84's speed will probably be more than 30mph behind that of the Tempest and La-7. More than 25mph slower than the Typhoon and Fw190D-9. More than 15mph slower than the Bf109G-10 and P-51D.
It will be close to the speed of the La-5FN and Yak-9U at fastest.
You greatly undersell the importance of speed. The Ki-84 will not, regardless of it's armament, be anywhere near the equal of the Spit XIV or F4U-4.
The Spit XIV's prop turns in the opposite direction that the Spit IX's does. This enables it to out turn the Mk IX in one direction.
P-38 using combat flaps turns very well.
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basically karnak is right and u are wrong :lol
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Originally posted by Karnak
You greatly undersell the importance of speed. The Ki-84 will not, regardless of it's armament, be anywhere near the equal of the Spit XIV or F4U-4.
I believe that in the MA, it's all about deckspeed and 0-10k climb.
The Ki-84, IF it is modelled in the best possible light, might be close to the Spit XIV in terms of speed on the deck. But there is no way it climbs with the Spit XIV, F4U4, or Temp. I see it as likely being most similar to the Spit IX in terms of total package. Even with the 4xHo-5 gunset, that's no better than the Tampoon, with 4xHispanos.
If added, I imagine the Ki-84 would be the most popular plane in the arena for two tours, and everyone will be calling for it to be perked. Then once the novelty wears off, everyone will go back to HO-ing in La-7s. :)
Of course, the only real solution to Ki-84 overplay is the Yak-9UT :p
-Sik
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There were a lot moce Ki-84's than F4U1-C's...Hmmm HTC
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Hmmmm, so when can we get it...??
I wonder HTC still doesn't announce new aircrafts release. :(
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Originally posted by Karnak
The only change was removing the two 12.7mm Ho-103 machine guns and their 700 rounds from the cowl and putting two 20mm Ho-5 cannon with 150 rounds each in the same space.
It doesn't justify that much of a price increase.
Also, I was matching it against the F4U-1C.;)
Which 20mm gun type does our current Ki61 Tei use? If that's the Ho-5, then sign me up. It seems that gun has received a bad rep. I disagree, I *love* the Ki61's cowl cannons. Very high ROF. Miniscule burst at close range = boom.
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Octavius,
The Ki-61-I-Tei is armed with two Ho-5 20mm cannon in the cowl with 120 rounds per gun and two 12.7mm Ho-103 machine guns, one in each wing with (IIRC) 250 ronds per gun.
The Ki-84-I-Ko is armed with two Ho-5 20mm cannon, one in each wing, with 150 rounds per gun and two 12.7mm Ho-103 machine guns with 350 rounds per gun in the cowl.
The Ki-84-I-Otsu is armed with four Ho-5 20mm cannon, two in the cowl and one in each wing, with 150 rounds per gun.
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Originally posted by Mitsu
Hmmmm, so when can we get it...??
I wonder HTC still doesn't announce new aircrafts release. :(
Mitsu, they must be busy with lots of other things... fixing bugs and putting together that career point stuff.
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Originally posted by Octavius
Which 20mm gun type does our current Ki61 Tei use? If that's the Ho-5, then sign me up. It seems that gun has received a bad rep. I disagree, I *love* the Ki61's cowl cannons. Very high ROF. Miniscule burst at close range = boom.
I believe it is the same gun. I too think the 20mm's in the Ki61 are awsome, very high rate of fire, and lethal.
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Originally posted by Grits
I believe it is the same gun. I too think the 20mm's in the Ki61 are awsome, very high rate of fire, and lethal.
No need to believe... cuz the Ki-61-I-Tei and the Ki-84s both used the Ho-5 20mm.
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Originally posted by Grits
I believe it is the same gun. I too think the 20mm's in the Ki61 are awsome, very high rate of fire, and lethal.
One of the old patches nerfed the ROF for the Tony's cannons a little bit because they are synched through the prop. The Frank's cannons would have a slightly higher ROF but wouldn't benefit from the convergence like the Tony.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
Mitsu, they must be busy with lots of other things... fixing bugs and putting together that career point stuff.
I saw the latest news.
I hope Ki-84 (or any Ki's) will be included in it.
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Originally posted by Mitsu
I saw the latest news.
I hope Ki-84 (or any Ki's) will be included in it.
I saw that too... I hope the Hayate is included!... :)
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This is the plane I miss most from AW. I used to fly it more than any other plane.
In AW it was faster than a P51 in a narrow alt window. It turned better than a spit 9 below 10k mostly because it had 4 flap settings which were fantastic if used properly. It climbed less fast than a spit and much less fast than a 109.
However, the controls would completely lock above a certain speed in a dive. And it had a very short clip.
It was not the most popular a/c choice in AW. I think it would be a fine addtion to AH, but I agree there are early war planes we need more.
Trip
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Very interesting read...
This is what I can say about the Ki-84 Hayate (Gale)
The specs:
Type:
Single-seat interceptor and fighter-bomber
Origin: Nakajima
Allied Code Name: Frank
First Flight: N/A
Service Delivery: Summer 1944
Final Delivery: N/A
Number Produced: 3,514
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Engine:
Ki-84 Ia:
Model: Nakajima Ha-45
Type: Radial piston engine
Number: One Horsepower: 1,900 hp
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Dimensions:
Wing span: 36 ft. 10½ in.(11.24m)
Length: 32 ft. 6½ in. (9.92m)
Height: 11 ft. 1½ in. (3.39m)
Wing Surface Area: 226.05 sq. ft. (21m²)
Weights:
Empty: 5,864 lbs. (2660 kg)
Max. Take-Off: 8,576 lbs. (3890 kg)
Performance:
Maximum Speed: 392 mph (631 km/h) at 20,080 ft.
Initial climb: N/A
Service Ceiling: 34,350 ft. (10,500m)
Range: 1,347 Miles (2168 km)
Endurance: N/A
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Armament:
Ki-84-Ia:
Two 12.7mm machine guns.
Two 20mm Cannon.
Ki-84-Ib:
Four 20mm Cannon.
Ki-84-Ic:
Two 30mm Cannon.
Two 20mm Cannon.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bomb Load:
Ki-84-Ia:
Wing racks for two 551 lb (250 kg) bombs
SOURCE:
Warbirds Resource Group (http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/ki84hayate.html)
Being new to AH I will say that I agree with you about AH needing more early war stuff as opposed to late war, and this is NOT a slam on AH or the gameplay here. It has been QUITE successful to an onlooker up to this point, but up to this point with no RPS I have only seen the planes you mention earlier in this thread in the air, (la7, nik, spit, and typh, P51) so if this would only add an other "player" in that group. I welcome it. For any events that are held in the PTO, this plane is a MUST have I would think...There are special events here right? I will ask about that in an other thread.
FWIW, I have seen this A/C in "other" sims, but it was not the UBER plane you make it out to be, nor should it be if modeled correctly IMO. I guess in the end I fall prone to this, MORE PLANES=BETTER FLIGHT SIM (if the modeling is done correctly) but that is just me. Your milage may vary at home. :) Interesting stuff.....
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SoftOpt,
According to Mitsu the Ki-84 prototypes used the Ha-45-23 engine (1900hp), but the production Ki-84's used the Ha-45-21 engine (1990hp). Unfortunately the only Japanese test documents that exist are of the first prototype (388mph) and second prototype (392mph). According to Japanese engineers the Ki-84-II, which was the same except had siome wooden parts, topped out at ~415mph using the Ha-45-21. Both German and Japanese engineers claimed that wooden parts reduced the speed of an aircraft by ~5mph.
Engine data:
Ha-45-23, rated at 1,900hp for take-off and 1,670hp at 4,725m.
Ha-45-21, rated at 1,990hp for take-off and 1,850hp at 5,740m.
Ha-45-21 Engine Performance from Instruction Manual
Take off Power: 2000hp/3000rpm (manifold air pressure: +500mmHg)
Normal Power: 1550hp/2780rpm/2500m (manifold air pressure: +200mmHg)
1st Military Power: 1890hp/3000rpm/1800m (manifold air pressure: +350mmHg)
2nd Military Power: 1700hp/3000rpm/6400m (manifold air pressure: +350mmHg)
Here is a very long thread on the Ki-84. It deteriorates into punts after a couple of pages, but it has good data in the first bit: Bring the Ki.84-I Hayate "Frank" to Aces High (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=68547&highlight=Ki84)
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Thanks for that link. I heard something of that nature before myself actually concerning the correct engine, but.....
if we are talking about in game, I would prefer to see what was fielded in combat situations above what type of engine the prototype was equiped with. That is just me tho...your opinion may differ. :)
One interesting side note about this plane I have heard tales about in reguards to the P-51 D and the speed of the Ki-84 at altitudes less than 15K is that apparently these were a fairly dead heat in combat situations. (at higher altitudes the P-51D was a better performer) It was only after the Ki-84 was tested with a fuel load that was of a higher octane that it was discoved that the Ki-84 was indeed faster at lower altitudes.
Is this gospel? I don't know. I was told this by people who know FAR more than I.
For your listening pleasure, education, or mis-education:
Here is a link to an interview with a REAL life Ki-84 (who also flew the VERY untraditional Deamon, Ki-44 IIc) (Mr. Mistsuda, taped by an aussie friend named kiwi.)
Mr. Mitsuda Real Life Ki-84/Ki-44 pilot (http://www.corruptionproductions.com/WARBIRDS/Matsuda%20KI44%20KI84.wav)
Enjoy :)
**Some colorful language, but nothing that will scar you for life**
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I too would like to see the correct engine, the Ha-45-21 1990hp, but I don't know if the data to add that is there.
Thanks for the interview. It is interesting. His preffered alt seems to back up the Ha-45-21 5,700m preffered alt.
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I've been flying Il-2 for a couple of months now and guess which plane they have? You got it, all three models of the Ki-84. It's deadly as hell too. Try it, you'll like it!
:D
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Il-2 sucks.
Sorry, but there is no other way to put it.
It is very pretty, but it sucks in all other ways.
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Well Karnak, I guess you have your opinion. It lacks in some ways, but is better in others. It's strickly a "flight" game, so bummer for no vehicles or ships. Pretty? Yes. A lot of different planes to fly and more on the way with the release of Pacific fighters coming soon. Damage models are much better than AH as are the graphics. I'll be back to fly AH2 once it's all done and then I'll give you my full opinion. Until then, I'll fly Il-2 and be happy with it.
;)
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Originally posted by Karnak
Il-2 sucks.
Sorry, but there is no other way to put it.
It is very pretty, but it sucks in all other ways.
Hehehe....
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One thing about Il-2 is there is no radar. No little warning that an enemy is near. Your field sirens go off only when an enemy is close. Although Il-2 has icons to ID planes, they have to be close before you determine what side they're on. Also, the settings can be made where you can only ID a plane by getting real close to it to see it's national markings or silouette(no icons). That is really the way it happened in real life. No icons, no colors, only you're eyesight and knowledge to help you out. And because of this "close-up" ID system, you only have a couple of seconds to plan your attack. Give it a try, you might like it(or not, because it's harder in some aspects than AH).
:eek:
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Karnak,
Turning Performance:
Ki-84-I-Ko: About like a Spitfire Mk IX, but with a vicious unannounced stall.
I'd be very curious as to where you read/heard that the Ki had a vicious unannounced stall. I find it funny because I have about 4 books on the Ki and NONE mention a vicious unannounced stall. In fact they all agree that it had really easy handling. Plus it has multi position fowler type flaps.
Spritle