Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on July 26, 2004, 11:55:06 AM
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President Bush is scheduled to sign this bill tomorrow, allowing active and retired police officers, sheriffs, etc to carry off duty and concealed nationwide. It's been a long road, like 12 years. many thanks to California Congressman (yes, there are a few with sense out there) Randy "Duke" Cunningham for ramrodding this through.
Recognize the name? The Navy's first fighter missile ace, had 3 kills in one day during that late unpleasantness in Southeast Asia some time back......
"There is no hunting like the hunting of a man, and those who have hunted armed men and liked it, never cared for anything else thereafter." Ernest Hemingway
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Is this just a news report or do you actually have an opinion?
h
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I've been waiting to see if this actually passes for several years now. Frankly after seeing several FOP reps talking on both sides of this issue I'll believe it when I see it reported as signed and not before.
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Originally posted by Horn
Is this just a news report or do you actually have an opinion?
h
Originally posted by Ripsnort
"It's been a long road, like 12 years. many thanks to California Congressman (yes, there are a few with sense out there) Randy "Duke" Cunningham for ramrodding this through...."
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Bill Clinton promised to put 100,000 more police officers on the streets, never happened. John Kerry is promising to put 100,000 more police officers on the streets...think it will happen?
This soon to be new concealed carry law will be a very good thing. It will put at least 100,000 armed officers on the streets.
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Originally posted by KBall
Bill Clinton promised to put 100,000 more police officers on the streets, never happened. John Kerry is promising to put 100,000 more police officers on the streets...think it will happen?
83,600 up through 2001. (Clinton's promises always fell short) but thats better than nothing!
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Originally posted by KBall
Bill Clinton promised to put 100,000 more police officers on the streets, never happened. John Kerry is promising to put 100,000 more police officers on the streets...think it will happen?
IMO, this should be a state issue.
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Originally posted by Sandman
IMO, this should be a state issue.
We would have cuts in police officers in 39 of 50 states, if it was a state issue.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
We would have cuts in police officers in 39 of 50 states, if it was a state issue.
Is this just an opinion or do you have some sort of data to support it?
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Sandman, you know I'm the copy and paste king! Silly question! But I cannot seem to find that "bit" of information, it was in one of these articles from the Stateline.org (similiar to this (http://www.dailyherald.com/news/illinois_story.asp?intID=381949) article.
However, all the data is here (http://www.stateline.org/stateline/) if you want to get out a calculator and do the math. ;)
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'Duke' is the man.
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What I want to know is if I can carry a concelaed weapon in my state, why can't I carry it elsewhere--like the officers in the bill? Are we creating another class of people? Are the cops better than the average joe who qualifies for concealed carry?
h
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Well, at least youve got a large state to do it in.
I travel an hour in the wrong direction and Im in either Jersey or ::gasp!:: Delaware... both are two of the most anti-gun, last call at 12:30AM, no smoking in buildings, girly-man states in the union.
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Originally posted by Horn
Are the cops better than the average joe who qualifies for concealed carry?
h
My short answer would be "Yes".
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Sandman, you know I'm the copy and paste king! Silly question! But I cannot seem to find that "bit" of information, it was in one of these articles from the Stateline.org (similiar to this (http://www.dailyherald.com/news/illinois_story.asp?intID=381949) article.
However, all the data is here (http://www.stateline.org/stateline/) if you want to get out a calculator and do the math. ;)
Interesting... I can't find that "bit" either.
I believe I know this much... Federal subsidy usually doesn't come without Federal oversight. I thought you guys on the right were for a smaller government. The surest way to reduce the size is to get the Feds out of state issues whenever possible. Then again... I may just be naive with tendencies for oversimplification.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Interesting... I can't find that "bit" either.
I believe I know this much... Federal subsidy usually doesn't come without Federal oversight. I thought you guys on the right were for a smaller government. The surest way to reduce the size is to get the Feds out of state issues whenever possible. Then again... I may just be naive with tendencies for oversimplification.
I think we're in agreement here, Sandman, bring it back to the State level, however when it comes to police, nurses, or fire dept jobs, we can't let the states sink budgets on these necessary items.
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In a couple of the surrouding counties where I live it is not only legal for an off duty officer to carry concealed, it is mandatory.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I totally agree with you Sandman...
Sig material!!
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Originally posted by Sandman
Sig material!!
Too slow on my edit! Oh well!
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I think that this is great news.
I hope that they will put in a bill to alow c&c the rest of the citizens shortly as well nation wide
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
My short answer would be "Yes".
...and ignorant as well.
We have the same training (gunwise) and maintain the same standards of training with the same frequency (state mandated).
Wanna try again?
h
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Originally posted by Horn
...and ignorant as well.
We have the same training (gunwise) and maintain the same standards of training with the same frequency (state mandated).
Wanna try again?
h
:rolleyes:
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You never leave your house anyways, I invited you over and you ignored me. Looks like I'll just have to invite Ripsnort up to the great city of Brotherly Love. So Rip you use hot carbona wax or Paste on that head?
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Well, at least youve got a large state to do it in.
I travel an hour in the wrong direction and Im in either Jersey or ::gasp!:: Delaware... both are two of the most anti-gun, last call at 12:30AM, no smoking in buildings, girly-man states in the union.
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Originally posted by Horn
[BWe have the same training (gunwise) and maintain the same standards of training with the same frequency (state mandated).
Wanna try again?
h [/B]
Quite frankly, since I came from that background I have to disagree with you.
There is a lot more involved than just learning how to use the firearm.
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Originally posted by NUTTZ
You never leave your house anyways, I invited you over and you ignored me. Looks like I'll just have to invite Ripsnort up to the great city of Brotherly Love. So Rip you use hot carbona wax or Paste on that head?
NUTTZ
I got cold feet after you sent me the pic with the goat.
Sorry man.
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That surprises me. I would have thought off duty cops in the US always had the right to carry guns. Well at least they have now.
Off duty detectives here carry their personal weapons. More than one robber has found themselves facing down the barrel of a gun when one of the customers in a store being robbed turned out be an off duty detective. LOL Uniformed guys are unarmed but that never stops them chasing gunmen and arresting them. Crazy and brave!
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Originally posted by Maverick
Quite frankly, since I came from that background I have to disagree with you.
There is a lot more involved than just learning how to use the firearm.
Really? Just to carry one? Don't think so.
Perhaps you are thinking of law enforcement. See the difference?
h
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Originally posted by cpxxx
That surprises me. I would have thought off duty cops in the US always had the right to carry guns. Well at least they have now.
Off duty detectives here carry their personal weapons. More than one robber has found themselves facing down the barrel of a gun when one of the customers in a store being robbed turned out be an off duty detective. LOL Uniformed guys are unarmed but that never stops them chasing gunmen and arresting them. Crazy and brave!
They do carry off-duty--but this law allows them to travel between states (therefore different carry laws) and out of their jurisdiction. It also allows LEO's to continue to carry when they retire if they qual in the state where they live on an annual basis.
The law on the surface isn't a bad thing--but it sets some nasty precedence and ignores those of us that have carry permits but are private citizens. I put more ammo thru my guns than ANY cop (on duty) because it is a hobby and I'm a better shot than most.
I should be accorded the same courtesy as the retired cop. After all--you don't have to requalify in each state to get a driver's license when you travel do you?
h
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Originally posted by Horn
Really? Just to carry one? Don't think so.
Perhaps you are thinking of law enforcement. See the difference?
h
You just made my point. CCW is not just being able to handle the weapon. I do know the difference.
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Originally posted by Maverick
You just made my point. CCW is not just being able to handle the weapon. I do know the difference.
So I guess the training/background checks we go thru/went thru to obtain the permit weren't valid? So, why are we even issued a permit at all if we are so incompetent? I can carry in Colorado but not in Kansas? Right.
h
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Originally posted by Horn
So I guess the training/background checks we go thru/went thru to obtain the permit weren't valid? So, why are we even issued a permit at all if we are so incompetent? I can carry in Colorado but not in Kansas? Right.
h
Last time I'll try to get this accross to you.
The ability to shoot, hit the target is not the main concept here. There is quite a bit more training that Officers go through than just learning to shoot. Learning when to and more importantly when NOT to shoot is far more important. That type of training is far more critical than learning how to shoot. The concept of being placed in a position to take a life and when to avoid being in that position is more critical. If your ccw trainers did not stress to you that the BEST option you have is to avoid being in a position to use deadly force you have not been informed correctly.
That counts far more than how much ammunition you expend. Those and other concepts that are drilled into Officers in training over a series of weeks are a part of the training that is not in the civilian CCW course due to time and other constraints. You simply cannot get all of it in a few evenings and a weekend at the range.
That and a career's worth of experiance makes the retired Officer better qualified to carry accross state lines than "the average joe".
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Originally posted by Maverick
Last time I'll try to get this accross to you.
The ability to shoot, hit the target is not the main concept here. There is quite a bit more training that Officers go through than just learning to shoot. Learning when to and more importantly when NOT to shoot is far more important. That type of training is far more critical than learning how to shoot. The concept of being placed in a position to take a life and when to avoid being in that position is more critical. If your ccw trainers did not stress to you that the BEST option you have is to avoid being in a position to use deadly force you have not been informed correctly.
That counts far more than how much ammunition you expend. Those and other concepts that are drilled into Officers in training over a series of weeks are a part of the training that is not in the civilian CCW course due to time and other constraints. You simply cannot get all of it in a few evenings and a weekend at the range.
That and a career's worth of experiance makes the retired Officer better qualified to carry accross state lines than "the average joe".
First off, since you were a LEO, I'm interested in your opinion on this.
Secondly, you are saying that a cop's training makes him "more" qualified to move across a border. You back this claim by the weeks spent in the academy. Shoot/No Shoot. I took the training, I know of what you speak.
Point is, if I'm not qualified, for WHATEVER REASON to carry a weapon in another state, why then am I allowed and qualified to carry it in my own?
The two are mutually exclusive. Unless of course you are advocating that no private citizen should be allowed to carry. Is that your stance?
h
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Originally posted by Maverick
Last time I'll try to get this accross to you.
The ability to shoot, hit the target is not the main concept here. There is quite a bit more training that Officers go through than just learning to shoot. Learning when to and more importantly when NOT to shoot is far more important. That type of training is far more critical than learning how to shoot. The concept of being placed in a position to take a life and when to avoid being in that position is more critical. If your ccw trainers did not stress to you that the BEST option you have is to avoid being in a position to use deadly force you have not been informed correctly.
That counts far more than how much ammunition you expend. Those and other concepts that are drilled into Officers in training over a series of weeks are a part of the training that is not in the civilian CCW course due to time and other constraints. You simply cannot get all of it in a few evenings and a weekend at the range.
That and a career's worth of experiance makes the retired Officer better qualified to carry accross state lines than "the average joe".
You definately birdie that hole Mav. <>
in addition, here in Michigan the CCW classes I wish to attend sometime in the winter will be a breeze for me. I was an armed guard at the Michigan National Bank Cash Vault. We had to take the same training as police in the M.C.O.L.E.S. (formally MLEOTC). The majority of the training in ALL STATES should be when NOT to shoot. People don't realize that if you draw, you'd better have a damn good reason for it, and of you better fire it. If not, you're screwed, as they should be. It comes down to responsibility, some have it, some don't. You are always gonna have the "rule-breakers".
I'll got off of my soap box.
Karaya
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our state actually did something right. wow.