Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: muckmaw on July 26, 2004, 01:41:31 PM
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When are people going to learn: There is no room for negotiating or appeasing terrorists?
Many of those abducted have been truck drivers bringing needed supplies. Adel Abou Hawili, a manager for Kuwait's Al-Roomi Shipping Agency, said the wave of kidnappings has forced transport costs up "50 to 65 percent" and made it harder to find drivers to work in Iraq.
Amid the latest abductions, many blamed the Philippines' decision a week ago to withdraw troops as militants demanded to secure the release of captured Filipino truck driver Angelo dela Cruz. Since dela Cruz's release last Tuesday, 12 foreigners — including an Egyptian diplomat — have been kidnapped by four different groups. A top Iraqi businessman was also seized.
"We've seen since the Philippines government acceded to the demands of the terrorists a whole spate of new hostage taking," Australian Foreign Minister Alexander Downer said. "And I'm afraid that's what inevitably is going to happen in those circumstances."
Sada also expressed regret at the Philippines decision: "We think that to bow to the terrorists' threats is the wrong policy."
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=3&u=/ap/20040726/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_11
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But they were gonna leave in a month anyway!
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Originally posted by ra
But they were gonna leave in a month anyway!
Looks like ya can't reason with, or use logic with a terrorist.
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Yeah, we armchair generals sure are brave and noble when it's not our neck that's gonna get sawed off.
About this 'not negotiating with hostages' statement, (in the past) the US has done it (Iran/Contra). So has Israel(Palestinian/Israeli prisoner swap). We just like to mask it so it's not obvious.
Here's the question:
Would you be as brave if it was you that was going to brutally murdered?
Frankly, I don't think so.
**edit: Go to Ogrish.com. There's a video of a Russian prisoner getting his neck brutally cut off. Close up with sound.
Tell me you'd be as brave as you are now if it was your neck they were cutting off.
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The phillipines did what they needed to do to protect there people.
They were leaving any ways, it is not there war. I see no reason for them to stick there necks out for any one else.
There is no honor fighting a battle that neither there people nor them selves want.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Here's the question:
Would you be as brave if it was you that was going to brutally murdered?
Frankly, I don't think so.
That's really an unrelated point since the people threatened with death don't make the decisions and hold absolutely no power. In that situation any rational person would prefer living to dying horribly.
That does not speak to the political repercussions of giving in to terrorist demands. If you, as a political decisionmaker, understood that giving in on this one person meant that many others would meet this fate than would have otherwise... what decision would you make in good conscience?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Downer starts diplomatic row over Iraq (http://au.news.yahoo.com/040518/2/p236.html)
"I think it's important we look after ourselves first and foremost," Mr Downer said.
What bollocks.... Downer, Howard, and the liberal govt. only got into Iraq to buy favour with GWB
Alexander Downer is a sniveling lackey, anyone who would take anything from his opinion is a clown
Tronsky
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I think this is one of the reasons I stopped studying IR.
My heart couldn't take the analysis that my head was supplying.
Have you ever seen the movie "Rope"?
In that movie Jimmy Stuart plays a professor who has some interesting and ghastly ideas about class and society, which he casually teaches and tosses about in conversation. It isn't until the horrible human consequences of his thinking play a direct role in his life, and he can see firsthand the results of his teachings, that he is able to take a step back and realize what he had done (now, this is not much of a spoiler, and it's not the main plot of the movie, just something I think about from time to time).
So it is with me and IR policy. I can say that I believe giving in to terrorists demands causes more terrorism, but I can also say that I'm glad I didn't have to make the descision that gets someone's head cut off. Essentially letting a known one die to protect an unown many... I just don't have the stomach for it these days.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Trell
The phillipines did what they needed to do to protect there people.
They were leaving any ways, it is not there war. I see no reason for them to stick there necks out for any one else.
There is no honor fighting a battle that neither there people nor them selves want.
WOW! Good thing the U.S. won't have that attitude the next time there's a natural disaster somewhere.
Trell... do you feel the same way about the U.S. giving aid to countries in need as well?
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Originally posted by mosgood
WOW! Good thing the U.S. won't have that attitude the next time there's a natural disaster somewhere.
Trell... do you feel the same way about the U.S. giving aid to countries in need as well?
If going to help another country during a natural disaster knowing that we are sending people to die, than yes. I am against it.
And yes I am against giving money to other countries, Unless it is in our benifet
Our goverment is there to help the people of our country, not screw us, and help other countires.
we are not the father of these other countries. they dont need child support
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I don't think you can blame any goverment for pulling out their support,troops what ever from Iraq. It's just never been a popular decision or campaign for any governemnt to support or be seen to be supporting in any way.
We have troops there but I think they are due back in October and won't be getting replaced.
Look at the heat blair is taking, he's the only real "ally" in the whole thing and it's going to cost him his job come the next election or possibly even sooner. And when that happens the next PM is sure to set in place the withdrawl of UK forces.
...-Gixer
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Gixer, its pretty obvious that whether or not they "plan" to pull their troops has nothing to do with giving in to terrorists. The Philippines planned to do so, however, they gave in to the terrorists by pulling them sooner, to save one life. The terrorists tout it, as a victory for them, and the behavior becomes a cascade of yet more abductions. its also a very good recruitment tool.
You cannot negociate nor even show a hint of weakness, with terrorists.
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Originally posted by mosgood
WOW! Good thing the U.S. won't have that attitude the next time there's a natural disaster somewhere.
Trell... do you feel the same way about the U.S. giving aid to countries in need as well?
I believe that the analogy between a natural disaster and the war in Iraq is a bit streched.
well....
nevermind.
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I wouldn't go as far and call them "troops" from what I've read they were just truck drivers and such and their numbers where under 50. Although I do understand NOW we need 50 US soldiers to now drive trucks and every soldier is needed in more major roles of the "war".
NUTTZ
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Gixer, its pretty obvious that whether or not they "plan" to pull their troops has nothing to do with giving in to terrorists. The Philippines planned to do so, however, they gave in to the terrorists by pulling them sooner, to save one life. The terrorists tout it, as a victory for them, and the behavior becomes a cascade of yet more abductions. its also a very good recruitment tool.
You cannot negociate nor even show a hint of weakness, with terrorists.
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The Philippines is not the only gov't to cut and run, or negotiate.
The U.S. negotiated for the release of the hostages in Iran by supplying advanced weapons for their war against Iraq - at the same time Iraq was being furnished with weapons for their war against Iran.
The U.S. vowed to never give in to terrorist bombings after the U.S. embassy in Lebanon was attacked. Six months later, after the truck bombing of the Marine barracks, the U.S. pulled out of Lebanon.
Perhaps the hastiest retreat in history was the U.S. pullout of 25,000 troops from Somalia after 16 U.S. soldiers were killed.
If there is one universal truth, it may be that politicians will do whatever is politically expedient to attain the lofty goal of getting themselves elected or re-elected.
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MUCKMAW re: cut and run
Yes I know and it is sad,but you cant leave spain out that was worse than philippines,today the news said it has become their weapon of choice. whatever works will be used.
SABUROS re : arm chair generals
I hope and pray I could be as brave as needed for my family and fellow Americans, but I dont know. I believe the snotty way you said [I dont think so] is very dishonorable to the many who have given their life such as squadron 8[ had no chance,] the men at the alamo could have cut and run, those hitting the beach at normandy, chosin res. the british stoping the french,they knew they had no chance,[ charge of the lite brigade] spartins against the arabs,so very many more, of course youll find something snotty to say about this. I guess there is a truth that will never change.....The few always have to fight for the many.
SIKBOY I understand , I dont have the stomach for it either unless forced to. But in every decade there are those that will rise to the challenge, just hate it when these people are so....dont know the right word.
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MUCKMAW re: cut and run
Yes I know and it is sad,but you cant leave spain out that was worse than philippines,today the news said it has become their weapon of choice. whatever works will be used.
SABUROS re : arm chair generals
I hope and pray I could be as brave as needed for my family and fellow Americans, but I dont know. I believe the snotty way you said [I dont think so] is very dishonorable to the many who have given their life such as squadron 8[ had no chance,] the men at the alamo could have cut and run, those hitting the beach at normandy, chosin res. the british stoping the french,they knew they had no chance,[ charge of the lite brigade] spartins against the arabs,so very many more, of course youll find something snotty to say about this. I guess there is a truth that will never change.....The few always have to fight for the many.
SIKBOY I understand , I dont have the stomach for it either unless forced to. But in every decade there are those that will rise to the challenge, just hate it when people are so ungratefull to those that do rise to the challenge.
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Originally posted by Rolex
If there is one universal truth, it may be that politicians will do whatever is politically expedient to attain the lofty goal of getting themselves elected or re-elected.
most but not all
some stand by their truths & convictions and are not poll swayed
(http://www.makethemaccountable.com/real/images/BushMean.jpg)
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One of the pitfalls of cajoling, blackmailing and buying support off developing countries to make a "coalition" is that by that very process you end up with small forces from governments that give in easily to bullying, blackmail and money.
So really, what did the US expect? If the Philippines didn't fold at the slighest threat of losing money, they probably would have told the US where to stick their coalition "offer" in the first place. it comes as little surprise then, that now — when the Pilippines figures it has far more to lose from supporting the US in this than by folding — that they go ahead and fold.
At home Arroyo would lose huge amounts of popularity: A LOT of Filipinos work overseas — the idea that the Government would do nothing to help overseas workers who got kidnapped might very well end up in a coup/revolution.
And with over 3,000 Filipino workers in Iraq, 900,000 in Saudi, 85,000 in the UAE, 60,000 in Kuwait - in fact a total of 1.5 million Filipinos working in the Middle East, avoiding conflict with Islamic extremist groups is extremely important economically to the Philippines. It's the source of a lot of Foreign exchange, and in it's favour, it's much less fickle and has fewer strings attached than any aid the US government can promise.
Moving 50 engineers home a month earlier also saves a bit of cash.
Of course it's a gamble, and may well prove to be a short-term remedy, but if it all goes to hell in a handbasket, they can always renegotiate.
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Originally posted by -dead-
— the idea that the Government would do nothing to help overseas workers who got kidnapped might very well end up in a coup/revolution.
They actually endangered the workers and more so, their country by cowing to terrorists. Now everyone knows that they will submit to terrorists and they are fair game for exploitation by anyone who has a bone to pick.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
That does not speak to the political repercussions of giving in to terrorist demands. If you, as a political decisionmaker, understood that giving in on this one person meant that many others would meet this fate than would have otherwise... what decision would you make in good conscience?
-- Todd/Leviathn
Because it's our invasion, we need to stay the course. The Bush administration made the right decision, as painful as it was, to not give in to the murder's demands in those circumstances.
The Italians didn't either. But guess what? They keep kidnapping victims of opportunity.
The Philipines govt. had a very tough decision to make indeed.
They were going to withdraw in a month. How would the people back home react to seeing their fellow countryman being brutally murdered? It would be different if not giving in to terrorist's demands would lead to no more further kidnappings and murders.
Fact is they don't. As long as the 'other' side doesn't like what you are doing, they will do whatever in their power they can get away with. The Philipines are a minor 'player' in this and I can understand why they did what they did.
The US, being the major player in this, I understand exactly why we couldn't 'tuck tail and run.' We need to stay the course.
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Originally posted by demaw1
SABUROS re : arm chair generals
I hope and pray I could be as brave as needed for my family and fellow Americans, but I dont know. I believe the snotty way you said [I dont think so] is very dishonorable to the many who have given their life such as squadron 8[ had no chance,] the men at the alamo could have cut and run, those hitting the beach at normandy, chosin res. the british stoping the french,they knew they had no chance,[ charge of the lite brigade] spartins against the arabs,so very many more, of course youll find something snotty to say about this. I guess there is a truth that will never change.....The few always have to fight for the many.
My point in all of this is that we sit back in judgement and make it seem so easy on decisions of life and death. Where in the world are you coming off on your samples? Apples and oranges.
If you were in that situation of going to be brutally murdered, you'd not wish your country would try to secure your release?
Or you'd tell them to: "**** off and slit my neck 'cause MY country doesn't negotiate with terrorists!"
I'm not talking about a situation where we were invaded and being occupied. Not about the Alamo, Normany Beach, WWII, etc.
I'm talking about this situation we're in right now, as invaders and occupiers (like it or not, that's what I'm guessing the avg Iraqi looks at us to be). The kidnappings won't stop no matter if anyone gives in or not.
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yes ..spain and philipines gov can suk it rigth now...
pisses me off..we are down there helping the pinois against there own muslim wackjobs in the islands....and they pull this crap..
What the fuq they think was gonan happen? Disney Land?
there are quite a few argumenst i could crush in here...but screw this..im lettn you michaelmoorestuartsmalley humps keep humpn...
Gixer?...im sure the other countries who have sacrificed there sons and daughters apreciate your.."real allies" crap
its going to take more killings of your friends and family to snap out of your utopia dreams...
You only "deal' with terrosts..when neccesary to smaq them even harder............This is far from Online Candlyland you play: )
and trell...nice ....No need to stcik your neck out for other countries...
Where are you from? native american indian?
..A healthy stable world is a great thing...countries in Kaos is bad....think you could list soem reasons why tht is?..lolo
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Originally posted by NUKE
They actually endangered the workers and more so, their country by cowing to terrorists. Now everyone knows that they will submit to terrorists and they are fair game for exploitation by anyone who has a bone to pick.
Maybe, and then again, maybe not. It's a gamble, but in its favour, by withdrawing their troops, they've withdrawn the single bone of contention - there is now nothing that the extremist groups in Iraq can really gain from the Philippines government.
Holding people to ransom won't work: that's ultimately a family thing, and thus pretty stupid: if their family had pots of cash, they wouldn't be working in Iraq. Kidnapping poor people for money is dumb.
Tell company X to withdraw from Iraq? They're not Filipino companies, so the Philippines government is of no use there.
They might ask the Philippines to withdraw all its citizens, but I'm not sure if the government could hope to deliver that goal, and even if they can from the government's point of view in the end, with only 3,000 Filipinos, Iraq's relatively small potatoes compared to other ME countries: so it might be worth the gamble for the goodwill it generates elsewhere (standing up to the US, receptive to the Iraqi cause, withdrawing troops from occupied territory, shunning zionist-US plot to enslave the good people of ME or whatever the hell the views are over there).
Perhaps some members of the new US-appointed regime are angry at the Philippines - but it was only 50 or so engineers, and it was going 1 month early so in the grand scheme of things it's fairly forgivable. And whether that regime's personnel has any say at all in the future of Iraq remains to be seen. Whether it can gain control of the cities remains moot at the moment. All in all it may actually prove extremely counterproductive to future trade to curry favour with the current regime.
It's conceivable that some may try to get Abu Sayyaf people released - but it seems rather unlikely: why should the Iraqis care? And there the Philippines government will probably draw the line. Because they can be tough on terrorists if it's worth their while.
So I tend to think the risk against the Philippines has lessened somewhat. One way it could increase again is if the Philippines now tries to cover themselves by bending over backwards to stress support of the US occupation. Because ultimately in Iraq, one of the biggest factors in determining who is at risk of be kidnapped and killed is whether their government supports the US in Iraq or not.
But to take an entirely practical point of view, no one can actually say with any certainty whether the Filipinos in Iraq now are any more or any less at risk of kidnap and beheading than before. All we can say is that one of them appears to still be alive because of it.
What really seems like the final shrewd calculation on Arroyo's part is the gamble that the US is unlikely to withdraw much if any of its TWOT-related aid dollars to the Philippines as that would make the US seem soft on terrorists, a really bad move for W in an election year. Gotta hand it to Glo, really. She's a lot of things but she ain't dumb.
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WARSAW, July 21 (AFP) - Poland and Bulgaria on Wednesday dug in their heels insisting they would not bow to an ultimatum from a group claiming links with Al-Qaeda to withdraw their troops from Iraq or face a terrorist attack. "When you give into pressure from terrorists it increases the threat for others," said Polish Prime Minister Marek Belka, whose country is a staunch supporter of Washington in Iraq where it heads a 6,500-strong multinational force.
that's it
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Yep both Howard and Downer are ca pair of scat munchers!
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Dead re: Phillipines better off.
I believe you are right, it was better for the phillipines and their citizen for them to retreat,I also agree if I was close to the person being threatened I would be screaming to high heaven.That is why juries never have realitives of the victum on them.
But do you believe all these that have been kidnapped in last 2 days is just a coinendence?Look at how many are facing the axe now.
Saborus, I was wrong your reply was resonable not snotty. Having said that most of us know these things are not easy.Look at how easy it is in the safety of their cocoon for the bush haters and bashers,maybe they should realize how hard it is for him to have all the right answers to this mess.
I dont see it as all apples and oranges, we didnt have to fight in europe in ww2,I am talking about what it takes to make a decision such as this. I am just a dumb avg American,but if I was a terrorist I would be planning to kidnap 4 phillippenos to make her release all the radical muslim prisioners they have. Now what.
We didnt invade anyone,we did what many thought had to be done remember something call the towers. Germany invaded poland,japan invaded china,big diffefence. The kidnappings may or may not stopped we will never know but they have certainally increased wouldnt you say?
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Originally posted by bikekil
WARSAW, July 21 (AFP) - Poland and Bulgaria on Wednesday dug in their heels insisting they would not bow to an ultimatum from a group claiming links with Al-Qaeda to withdraw their troops from Iraq or face a terrorist attack. "When you give into pressure from terrorists it increases the threat for others," said Polish Prime Minister Marek Belka, whose country is a staunch supporter of Washington in Iraq where it heads a 6,500-strong multinational force.
that's it
WTFG POLAND and BULGARIA! :aok :aok
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Gixer, its pretty obvious that whether or not they "plan" to pull their troops has nothing to do with giving in to terrorists. The Philippines planned to do so, however, they gave in to the terrorists by pulling them sooner, to save one life. The terrorists tout it, as a victory for them, and the behavior becomes a cascade of yet more abductions. its also a very good recruitment tool.
You cannot negociate nor even show a hint of weakness, with terrorists.
I agree..Never concede to terror...No negotions with abductors period.!
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The phillipines is not there to take care of the world, They are there to take care of there people and intrests,
It is in there intests to pull out of iraq and not piss every one off.
It may hurt us in the long run, or the short run. But i cant fault them for taking care of there own
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Originally posted by -dead-
Maybe, and then again, maybe not. It's a gamble, but in its favour, by withdrawing their troops, they've withdrawn the single bone of contention - there is now nothing that the extremist groups in Iraq can really gain from the Philippines government.
What about extremist groups in the Philippines? I expect Abu Sayyaf just learned a valuable lesson in what methods work to force the government's compliance. I would not be the least bit surprised if Philippinos at home now face increased prospects of kidnappings and highly-publicized, Internet-friendly beheadings.
Pulling out of Iraq early was a myopic decision. Not only did it increase the danger to other countries in Iraq, but it likely increased the danger to Philippinos at home as well.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Christ....Sirloin, DMF, and myself, all agreeing on a subject. Get your tinfoil hats on and stock up on rations, the end is near...
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Originally posted by Trell
The phillipines is not there to take care of the world, They are there to take care of there people and intrests,
It is in there intests to pull out of iraq and not piss every one off.
It may hurt us in the long run, or the short run. But i cant fault them for taking care of there own
Of course. They did what they thought is best for them... but that's not how it should work.
Once sent his guys there, they decided (should made a RESPONSIBLE decision) to support "something" (whatever exactly it was and whatever reasons they had).
Now, if the left the other supporters of that mysterious "something" and put then in danger because if it how would you call them?
I think they should never move their guys from their country and they should never been considered for thisk kind of missions in future.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What about extremist groups in the Philippines? I expect Abu Sayyaf just learned a valuable lesson in what methods work to force the government's compliance. I would not be the least bit surprised if Philippinos at home now face increased prospects of kidnappings and highly-publicized, Internet-friendly beheadings.
Pulling out of Iraq early was a myopic decision. Not only did it increase the danger to other countries in Iraq, but it likely increased the danger to Philippinos at home as well.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Excellent Post DMF.
Could not have been said better.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What about extremist groups in the Philippines? I expect Abu Sayyaf just learned a valuable lesson in what methods work to force the government's compliance. I would not be the least bit surprised if Philippinos at home now face increased prospects of kidnappings and highly-publicized, Internet-friendly beheadings.
Pulling out of Iraq early was a myopic decision. Not only did it increase the danger to other countries in Iraq, but it likely increased the danger to Philippinos at home as well.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Abu Sayyaf have been kidnapping people for years - it's how they make their money - so I don't think they've learnt any valuable lesson at all: the only lesson involved with Iraq is teaching your grandmother to suck eggs.
And as far as I know, Abu Sayyaf have had their best (perhaps only) government-related results kidnapping Americans & other foreigners. Based on the past track record, kidnapped Filipinos can expect to be beheaded or just forgotten if their family doesn't pay up. So I think your estimate of the danger to Filipinos being increased is probably an exaggeration.
And the whole thing is a bit apples and oranges - Abu Sayyaf run their operations in the Philippines, and therefore conceding to their demands represents a direct challenge to the authority and sovereignty of the Philippine government. In short, a high stakes game there. Not so in Iraq - which for the Philippines is a very low stakes game, so it's a bit simplistic to really expect the gameplay to be the same.
So was it myopic for the Philippines to pull out of Iraq? Angelo de la Cruz would certainly say it wasn't. I don't think it was - it runs a risk but it seems to be a very small one, but only time will tell.
If you're truly looking for a myopic Iraq-related decision leading to increased danger to other countries in Iraq and increased prospects of kidnappings and highly-publicized, Internet-friendly beheadings, I'd start at the beginning: the invasion itself.
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Originally posted by Trell
The phillipines is not there to take care of the world, They are there to take care of there people and intrests,
It is in there intests to pull out of iraq and not piss every one off.
It may hurt us in the long run, or the short run. But i cant fault them for taking care of there own
Yea, we can`t expect them to do anything for the U.S. can we? I mean after all what did we ever do for them? How many years was it that we financialy supported the little bastiges?