Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: smiggy on July 26, 2004, 05:32:01 PM
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Anyone played this sim?
Have just bought it and the 'Forgotten Battles' on ebay and wordered if it is as good as the write-ups and the hype?
Has online options also!
??
Smiggy.
:)
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Never heard of it.
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Isnt that an Xbox/Play Station game?
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Online options arent what you think. They arent massively multiplayer like AH or even WB or AW. The number allowed online in a game at one time is limited.
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iv heard it read reviews and its your Game that only plays to the high end PC's makes AH2 demands look like a joke
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its a good game - enjoy it
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I play online exclusively, its great game online or off.
Last night Scot and I were winging on the warclouds server. 1 sortie we bounced 2 51s, a Jug a p38 and a spit and killed them all. We then got bounced in return by another 51. I pulled a "Hartmann" and neg g'd out and away. The 51 couldnt follow and went to Scot who drug him around into my guns. Realizing death was near the p51 tried to run but my speed (760 kph) was great and my aim true. He exploded after having 3cm of Rheinmetall shoved up his arse.
1000 times more fun then fighting the same planes in AH.
However, the curent version of Forgotten battles is FB Aces Expansion Pack 2.04. Not many folks still play FB or the original Il2.
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It's a good game, but the flight models are what I call "Light". They're very detailed, such as having the ability to change fuel mixtures, but the feel of flight is like you're on the moon. Added to that, the sense of speed is too high. It feels like you're in a jet, even in a Hurricane. The cockpits look like they're made of cardboard, but they're historically accurate.
Graphics and sound effects seem to be the top priorities in Il-2.
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IL-2FB is awesome. Flight models feel better (harder), graphix way better, engine management etc. If Oleg ever figures out how to combine massive multiplay with his eye candy and flight models (for realists).. HTC is history.
Tumor
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To make Il-2 an MMO, Mr. Maddox would have to seriously degrade the graphics quality. It isn't gonna happen.
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Originally posted by Tumor
IL-2FB is awesome. Flight models feel better (harder), graphix way better, engine management etc. If Oleg ever figures out how to combine massive multiplay with his eye candy and flight models (for realists).. HTC is history.
Tumor
I don't fly real aircraft so I can't comment on whether the FM is more real. Take offs and landings are harder and trimming your plane is more difficult (see below).
In some things Il2 are much worse than AH: flaps for example (virtually all a/c have combat flaps and you can deploy them at pretty much any speed). Il2 trim is also strange: you used be able to trim your a/c in such a way as to vastly increase rate of turn: in order to fix this (instead of fixing how trim affected the FM) they changed it so the application of trim was delayed - consequently trimming the a/c is difficult as you are always chasing your own input. Also the FMs keep changing, usually in response to whoever whinges loudest and longest, though I do admit that the unremitting uberness of russian a/c needed fixing.
The graphics are, of course, excellent and I don't find it's performance on my PC much different from AH (which IMHO doesn't look as good).
Overall it's good game and is the current state of the art in flight sims. You can find some good online play if you are picky with your servers.
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I have and play Il2 online. it is a truly awesome game that takes time to learn the ins and outs of flying planes. email if ya wanna play on hyperlobby sometime. swa2467@hotmail.com there is usually a few euro people on around noon pst.
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/66_1089488209_g50.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/66_1089441894_3a194eb5.jpg)
Try it for yourself....bring lots of computer...
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Barely have the time to play AHII and don't want to invest in a new computer yet.
But the first pic schadenfreude shows, I would have no trouble believing it was an oil painting. Awesome!
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Makes good wallpaper...
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/66_1079292266_pic021_edited.jpg)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/66_1089488248_g0003.jpg)
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Originally posted by Tumor
IL-2FB is awesome. Flight models feel better (harder), graphix way better, engine management etc. If Oleg ever figures out how to combine massive multiplay with his eye candy and flight models (for realists).. HTC is history.
As one of Dale and Doug's biggest fans I fear you may be right. I give IL2/FB/AEP the nod over AH2 in all aspects of the "simulator". But then again it is 3 CDs and numerous large patches worth of code and sights/sounds. It is easier to be good at the candy when you come in a box.
"If Oleg ever figures out how..." is a big thing though. There's not only the net code but the server load would be almost impossible. Can you imaging tracking 500 players and all of their bullets and bombs with IL2, and all of theother small details? I'm thinking large cluster, Beowulf anyone?
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Oleg's not worried about massive online. From survey's he has stated that only around 10% of the people who bought FB fly online regularly. He makes more selling the game and the add-ons then he would from online subscriptions.
HTC has been able to keep cost down and keep the min requirements low enough to fill the online vacuum.
With FA, WBs 200X, and AH the competition for online subscription play is tight anyway. I guess Oleg could come up with a scheme to license a 250 man server to folks and let them run their own.
It would require a user friendly terrain editor that would allow the server side to place the objects (towns, buildings etc) as needed. This would help reduce the sys and bandwidth requirements but they would still be high. Right now the large Leningrad map has over 1 million objects on it. Most of the other maps are too small to have over 100 people on. Some are crowed with 32 (Tunisia).
Oleg is busy with BoB anyway and will make quite a bit without massive online capability.
That said even with 32 folks on a DF server with small maps is terrific fun. No one blows up your fuel or hangars and there no dweebs in gv's rolling up to vulch you as you spawn.
Even the scripted DF servers do a better job providing fun then the CT or main in AH could do. Hell, on those type servers I even do a little jabo now and again...
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/334_1090096841_ss3.jpg
So the ah main may have 500 folks online but 90% are pork and auger with the other 10% spread out over the map. The smaller 256 x 256 maps help keep the fight close but once the 512 x 512s come back in rotation that 10% will be hard to find.
I just gave up on AH all together. The game play is just capture the flag with planes and not much of an air combat game. Even with wwiiol’s FM that type of game is better played over there. It’s more in depth and more immersive with all aspects covered (land, sea, air). All these games have their problems but as I said before fighting p51 in AH is just boring in FB/AEP it’s a lot of fun.
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Just downloaded the original demo. From first glance its a great game, nose bounces a lot, and the FM is a little bit sketchy (less forgiving than what I experience in other sims). Eye candy is the best Ive seen in a simulator, but no online play!
If anyone else has the demo, btw, tell me and id be glad to go online with ya in it! :aok
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you can get it for a steal on ebay:
http://search.ebay.com/il2-forgotten-battles_W0QQsofocusZbsQQsbrftogZ1QQfromZR10QQsotrZ2QQsosortpropertyZ1QQsosortorderZ1
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If you are going to buy anything get the FB/AEP Gold pack. (unless you have FB then just get AEP).
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...don't forget another major plus with IL2/FB/AEP...
Native support for TrackIR!
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Originally posted by United
From first glance its a great game, nose bounces a lot, and the FM is a little bit sketchy (less forgiving than what I experience in other sims).
EVERYTHING is less forgiving, you have to really manage your engine now, and just wait til you see the gunnery :D
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Originally posted by sling322
Online options arent what you think. They arent massively multiplayer like AH or even WB or AW. The number allowed online in a game at one time is limited.
To be fair, you assume what online options players may find essential. If you want to capture and bomb, and win a reset, sure, you need a large arena. But to furbal, 500 people in a MA make no difference to the player. Your avoiding everything else going on to find 20 people that want to furbal as well, and hope you have fuel to do so before the guys playing AH RISK show up to do some fuel strat number thing.
Il-2 just takes out all the extra stuff and gives you DF maps. Add in graphics that are way better, it’s free, and at least for 30 furballers, it’s a helluva good time.
I like the COOP missions online better, but that’s what AH TOD will be doing.
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Originally posted by United
Just downloaded the original demo. From first glance its a great game, nose bounces a lot, and the FM is a little bit sketchy (less forgiving than what I experience in other sims). Eye candy is the best Ive seen in a simulator, but no online play!
If anyone else has the demo, btw, tell me and id be glad to go online with ya in it! :aok
The game has changed significantly from that first demo.
I have played the game from pre-alpha to currently and it is by far the best offline flight simulator ever made. The graphics, flight models and campaign are top notch. You can scale it to be as easy or as hard as you want and with the patches (which are not just patches but generally aircraft and terrain add ons as well) have made it better.
This is an example of the rare time when a developer not only creates a product, but continues to support it long after release. In the works is a new game using the IL2 Engine covering the Pacific war with landable aircraft carriers. See pic:
(http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/230704/illustrious2.jpg)
(http://www.il2sturmovik.com/forgotten_battles/090704/USS_Lexington.jpg)
I can't wait for this.
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I still don't get why HTC doesn't work on providing better graphics as optional downloadable patches. It seems they are stuck in the late 90's with the bandwidth/CPU power thought process. Maybe I'm missing something but if IL2 can get MMOG going I'd leave HTC. Most customers have machines capable of much better graphics than whats in AH2 and those who don't could just move that slider down.
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All you have to do is read the whines of the folks who can’t get their pii 400s to run ah2 now. There’s far more of them and they are far more vocal.
Besides just up dating ah graphics won’t pull more folks in, look at Wbs. It looks better then ah and is about the same price but had 35 people online on a Sunday.
If anything ht would loose folks.
People aren’t going to stop playing FB/AEP because ht updates, they aren’t going to stop playing wwiiol. HT has to update moderately to keep his existing player base. That’s where he earns his living. AH isn’t what it is because HT can’t do anything else. It what it is because it’s making money.
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Originally posted by Wotan
All you have to do is read the whines of the folks who can’t get their pii 400s to run ah2 now. There’s far more of them and they are far more vocal.
Besides just up dating ah graphics won’t pull more folks in, look at Wbs. It looks better then ah and is about the same price but had 35 people online on a Sunday.
If anything ht would loose folks.
People aren’t going to stop playing FB/AEP because ht updates, they aren’t going to stop playing wwiiol. HT has to update moderately to keep his existing player base. That’s where he earns his living. AH isn’t what it is because HT can’t do anything else. It what it is because it’s making money.
Still don't understand why optional graphic upgrades would hurt business. if anything, it should help retain those who want better eye candy while retaining the low end business. What am I missing?
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So you think that HT should architect the game so that it can have two or more totally differrent front end graphics engines, with two or more totally different sets of wireframes and skins and maps. With two or more totally different hit resolution systems for the different front ends. Or one more complex that could interface with any graphics front end.
All with just his lonesome to write and support.
Different cockpits for each level, Different skins for each add on skin for each level
Or he could write one graphics engine that allows level of detail to be dropped hopefully enought to allow lower performing systems to participate.
I like what he is trying to do. I think what your sugesting(if I understood it) would be unworkable.
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I would think that the whole idea of AH2 was to have this engine in place. You see what I'm talking about on most other games out there where one can crank down the graphics to suit the limits of of your machine.
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HT doesn’t have the resources or the personnel to maintain and develop multiple front ends. While they spend time developing a higher detail option then this means no new aircraft for some time and means tod will be pushed back even further. The folks playing AH2 are the folks who played AH1. It looked worse the n AH2.
You have variable graphic settings via the sliders.
A higher level of detail front end will mean more work for little return. No matter if they offer it as an option or as mandatory. In fact as an option it would mean more work. Making it mandatory will push some customers away.
Folks like me who left AH didn’t do so because of graphics we did it over game play. As I said it’s just capture the flag with planes.
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Il-2 Sturmovik does have the most detailed flight model. However, it's very light. It's not like flying a real piston-powered plane. Like I said earlier, it's like you're flying a jet, even when you're in a Hurricane. Oh, and a P-47 is way too nimble.
The sense of speed is out of proportion. The planes have far too much lift. The G effects are too light.
Other than that, it's great.
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Originally posted by Pongo
So you think that HT should architect the game so that it can have two or more totally differrent front end graphics engines, with two or more totally different sets of wireframes and skins and maps.
No.
Just bring back AH1 and flood it with new planes and vehicles.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Folks like me who left AH didn’t do so because of graphics we did it over game play. As I said it’s just capture the flag with planes.
and it allways was capture the flag, nothing has change since AW, WB
you just get bored
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$15 !!
if you can't blow 50 cents a day on hours of entertainment then you shouldn't play AH
FB is free
I can play both and enjoy both for what they are. I do not want one to become the other and vise versa
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I'm getting way better FPS in IL2 than AH2...even when I back off on the AH settings vs IL2 maxed out.
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Originally posted by Creamo
No.
Just bring back AH1 and flood it with new planes and vehicles.
Yeah that would be real smart.....then they would have to re-make all those planes when the AH2 upgrade comes about.
You have been whining about how poor AH graphics are when compared to IL2 for a while Creamo. So now they write a new version which is going to allow them to upgrade the graphics and you ***** about bringing the old one back. Make up your mind....do you want them to take a step forward or not?
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Originally posted by ramzey
and it allways was capture the flag, nothing has change since AW, WB
you just get bored
Yup but when you were paying 2 bucks an hour or even 30 a month there was less pork and auger and more a2a combat.
Its always been "capture the flag" but it was secondary to the fight. Now capture the flag is the primasry focus of the game.
Before it just provided something to fight over.
Same Sirloin I run excellent on everything in il2 and get better fps.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Still don't understand why optional graphic upgrades would hurt business. if anything, it should help retain those who want better eye candy while retaining the low end business. What am I missing?
Well for one thing bandwidth & CPU ppwer, do you have any idea what it would take to push that much information back and forth to 200-300 players? even if only the update data is send over the network, your CPU would not be able to handle the screen updates.
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Originally posted by Heater
Well for one thing bandwidth & CPU ppwer, do you have any idea what it would take to push that much information back and forth to 200-300 players? even if only the update data is send over the network, your CPU would not be able to handle the screen updates.
Not so sure that is accurate. Take a look at typhoon rising which is a first person shooter with 150 players at a time. Top notch graphics and tons of players. Point being graphics is a local issue not something the server has to push to you.
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Pei mentioned about trim in Il2 and how you chase your inputs.
I have elevator trim mapped to my mouse wheel this seems to stop this and make it very easy to adjust accurately.
track IR, decent computer Icons off (use the 'mp_dotrange' command to make dots appear at 15k or what ever distance can also set up custom colours friendly only icon etc etc).
Shame its not MMO but still fun.
I like setting up a mission with 30-40 enemy he-111 and a few 109e escorts and see how long you can survive with a flight of 12 hurri mk1's.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
I would think that the whole idea of AH2 was to have this engine in place. You see what I'm talking about on most other games out there where one can crank down the graphics to suit the limits of of your machine.
Thats exaclty what I have done in AH2. Have you even tried the game?
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Originally posted by Pongo
Thats exaclty what I have done in AH2. Have you even tried the game?
ummm ya... pretty sure the point here is the high end is not that "high"
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
ummm ya... pretty sure the point here is the high end is not that "high"
well Im definalty not getting what your saying then. Do you mean that with the detail sliders minimized you still need a pretty good system? or even with them maximised the game doenst have good enough graphics?
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Originally posted by Pongo
well Im definalty not getting what your saying then. Do you mean that with the detail sliders minimized you still need a pretty good system? or even with them maximised the game doenst have good enough graphics?
NP... my point, and I'm not speaking for anyone else is that the high end does not have the quality of graphics I would like to see given the state of graphics in other common multiplayers games. The counter argument seems to be that doing so would create a game that is unplayable by low end machines which seems unreasonable to me since low end users should be able to turn down the graphics to suit their needs.
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In AH the cockpit is actually a part of the ac model. Unlike FB or WBs where they have "cockpit art". Go external in AH and you can see the gauges working through the canopy. In Il2 this is different. This is why AH can have its head positions the way the are.
AH2 planes (the one that are redone for AH2; most people don’t realize this. Most planes haven’t been updated to AH2 yet and as such are same as AH1) are at a much higher res then Il2’s. It AH the wing of the g6 is 4 times the res of il2s and as such skinners can really do more and make them look better.
The models however are at a lower poly count in AH. Having 500 guys on an Il2 server would lag most folks out.
There's a lot you don’t really get. It’s not a matter of them not wanting higher end graphics. They can do that. It’s the impact it will have in terms of work in relation to gain.
AH’s trees are the same as Il2s. The only real difference is in the water (depending on the settings), the cockpits and the ac models.
The only real difference any of those will make is in the cockpits. The more detailed the cockpits the worse fps players will have. Even in Il2 you can check this by switching between cockpit on /off.
Oleg has even said this on cockpit res.
However I promise you that in our next sim after the PF you will be able to read all digits on indicators that are neccessary to read (if you cant currently, I'm sorry Smile, but that is limit with the compromise of you RAM and speed of PC. We was able to make greater resolution of texture, but you will loose the dynamic FPS beeing in a cockpit. That is a limit and rule that we need to use. Its a dogfight of compromises).
HT knows it’s a dogfight of compromises as well.
My issues with AH aren’t graphic related but stall game play. That won’t change regardless of graphics.
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Originally posted by Wotan
(the one that are redone for AH2; most people don’t realize this. Most planes haven’t been updated to AH2 yet and as such are same as AH1) are at a much higher res then Il2’s. It AH the wing of the g6 is 4 times the res of il2s and as such skinners can really do more and make them look better.
I'm probably totally off base here, but are the non-updated skins the original 256x256 skins that are then "stretched" to 1024x1024?
Those 1024 skins (I mean the actual "new" skins) are sweet enough for me, I can't wait until I have the horsepower to drive them lol.
-Sik
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No they are still 256 until the get updated. But you can do a skin and make 1024 for those planes that havent been updated. The only thing is after they update you may have issues with the skin.
fyi news from pyro
We’re still working through some issues with 2.00 and will release at least one more patch before 2.01.
The terrain editor is close to being released. This will be a basic version that only allows default tiles and object groups. The next major programming objective is to create a full tile/object editor to complete this tool. We’re also working on an improved tree system and tree models.
There’s also some work currently being done with TrackIR compatibility and work on the ToD foundation is continuing as well.
Version 2.01 is already under development and we’re planning a short development cycle for this version. The primary goal of the next version (in addition to the aforementioned terrain work) will be adding a couple new planes and a tank built to new AH2 specs. After this version, we’ll split time between adding new planes and bringing existing planes converted from AH1 up to the new AH2 specs. The new spec uses a more detailed model and a new texture mapping that makes the entire plane accessible for skinning and does not mirror any textures. The outside shape of the first AH2 plane is almost complete and we’ll post some screenshots when that part is complete.
When the new tour begins, look for some changes in plane ratings. ENY values will be updated and a few rarely used perk planes will probably see a price reduction.
Its not like they arent working their arses off... (not a fan boi btw)
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Originally posted by Wotan
No they are still 256 until the get updated. But you can do a skin and make 1024 for those planes that havent been updated. The only thing is after they update you may have issues with the skin.
Makes sense.
I've a 60% completed Yak-9T skin. I doubt I'll get it done before they get the model done though lol. It's taken me three months just to get this far :p
-Sik
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Well if one of the new planes they release is the Yak 9m you may get all new art for the 9t... Who knows..
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Originally posted by Wotan
Well if one of the new planes they release is the Yak 9m you may get all new art for the 9t... Who knows..
Yeah... I'm sort of hoping for that. If they do the 9M, I imagine the model for the 9T would be redone at the same time (or close to it). That way I could do the skin for the new model, and not worry about the mirroring that's killing me on the current model.
you're right... who knows. But a boy can dream :)
-Sik
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Wotan, isn't AH2's max skin size 1024? If so, thats the same resolution as Il2's... so the G6's wing in either game would be the same res.
-SW
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The ah textures are split into multiple .bmps where as il2 all the skin is compressed into one 1024 x 1024 bmp.
Go over to AH2 skins and dl Kweassa's g10 template and compare the wing to the il2 g10. Its damn near 4 x times the size.
So AH2 ac = multiple (2 most cases) 1024 templates
il2 1 template at 1024.
You can get a higher level of detail on the AH skins then Il2. There really is a huge difference. Most of the issues with the AH planes arise from stretching and mirroring (which by the looks of it will soon no longer be an issue) and the number of poly's of the actual ah models. (octagon 190s etc....) There are also added details on the il2 models (actual "bumps" instead of 2d renderings).
That may get changed as well. Pyro has also left several hints about adding an alpha to the gauges (glass over gauge) and "native units" for some planes. I am not sure what this all means but I don’t think it’s realistic to expect il2 graphics in AH.
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Its alot like Microsoft CFS. If you have played that, then you played IL2.
Basically the same thing.
Good luck!
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blah not even close...
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Originally posted by Swager
Its alot like Microsoft CFS. If you have played that, then you played IL2.
Basically the same thing.
Good luck!
Post this over on the ubisoft boards, go on I dare you!
:)
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Originally posted by Swager
Its alot like Microsoft CFS. If you have played that, then you played IL2.
Basically the same thing.
Good luck!
The guy has some real issues:rofl