Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Wanker on July 28, 2004, 08:25:42 AM
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Now that would make for an interesting Presidential race.
Colin Powell, not your typical Republican right-wing reactionary.
Barack Obama, not your typical whiney Democrac.
If these two ever ran against each other, I would, for the first time ever, have a difficult time making up my mind.
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Were you impressed of Obama sin Laden'speech about how great his parents were and how he's now capitalizing his political career off of their hard work?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Were you impressed of Obama sin Laden'speech about how great his parents were and how he's now capitalizing his political career off of their hard work?
C'mon Rip, that's kinda low, isn't it? I mean, don't most parents want their kids to have/ do better than they did? I think it's just natural for successful people to give credit to those whose sacrifices have enabled them to achieve.
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Originally posted by slimm50
C'mon Rip, that's kinda low, isn't it? I mean, don't most parents want their kids to have/ do better than they did? I think it's just natural for successful people to give credit to those whose sacrifices have enabled them to achieve.
In other words, my question would have been, "What have YOU done?"
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revive celebrity death match and decide who the winner would be.
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Rip gets the prize.
The first Repub to identify Obama with Osama.
I'll bet it took a while to come up with that one.:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Curval
Rip gets the prize.
The first Repub to identify Obama with Osama.
I'll bet it took a while to come up with that one.:rolleyes:
Stolen from Funk in another post.
I'm with Wotan's assessment, he reminded me too much of "Legal Action Jackson" (Jesse Jackson)
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Uh, Rip? Obama earned a law degree from Harvard and was a successful attorney as well as an Illinois state senator.
I'd say he's done plenty of his own accord. You're headed down a dead end with this one.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Uh, Rip? Obama earned a law degree from Harvard and was a successful attorney as well as an Illinois state senator.
I'd say he's done plenty of his own accord. You're headed down a dead end with this one.
-- Todd/Leviathn
And Jesse Jackson earns a living threatening company's with lawsuits. Whats your point?
I didn't care for his speech. Alot of rhetoric. No dead end, just my opinion. I'm entitled to that, no?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
And Jesse Jackson earns a living threatening company's with lawsuits. Whats your point?
[/b]
My point is that you are wrong when you say "he's now capitalizing his political career off of their hard work." He might be disingenuous when he credits them, but it's obvious he didn't just ride their coattails into political office.
I didn't care for his speech. Alot of rhetoric. No dead end, just my opinion. I'm entitled to that, no?
But of course, even if it's wrong as usual. :D
-- Todd/Leviathn
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edit: punt
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
But of course, even if it's wrong as usual. :D
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
Typical arrogance of the left. Right as usual! ;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Typical arrogance of the left. Right as usual! ;)
How can I trust your opinions when you can't even place me properly on an ideological continuum? :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
How can I trust your opinions when you can't even place me properly on an ideological continuum? :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
Ah, the old "wolf in sheeps clothing" eh? :rolleyes:
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What do Obama and Powell say about:
-gun control
-late-term abortion
-taxes
-Social Security reform
-Patriot Act
-tort reform
Probably nothing.
Anybody can stand up and give a speech designed to make everyone feel warm and fuzzy. To become a leader you have to address real issues.
ra
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I bet you didn't hear the speech Rip.
Now I'm thinking here... what could Obama possibly have in common with Jesse Jackson? Hmmmmmmmm....
Oh thats right...
NOTHING.
(http://www.senatedem.state.il.us/images/p-obam.jpg)
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Funked gets the prize then.
So far this guy has been slammed on the boards by the diehards...but I have noticed a softening of opinions from some of the repubs who actually think before posting and recognise this guy as a breath of fresh air in politics.
Of course the first thing most see is a threat to their guns.:rolleyes:
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The Dems are just showing their desperation for a good politician (i.e. smooth talker that appears to want to unite) Of course, if you didn't LIKE his speech, and sensed the stero-typical "snake oil salesman"... you're an idiot, right?
:rolleyes:
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Right
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I thought old Harold was the "Second Coming" for the Dems? Oh, that's until he challenged old Miss Scary Eyes for the Whip. He needs to mind his manners.
(http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/2002/0212/ford1209.jpg)
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Originally posted by Makarov9
I thought old Harold was the "Second Coming" for the Dems? Oh, that's until he challenged old Miss Scary Eyes for the Whip. He needs to mind his manners.
(http://i.timeinc.net/time/daily/2002/0212/ford1209.jpg)
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
The Dems are just showing their desperation for a good politician (i.e. smooth talker that appears to want to unite) Of course, if you didn't LIKE his speech, and sensed the stero-typical "snake oil salesman"... you're an idiot, right?
:rolleyes:
Rip, using that logic, you could never, ever be convinced of anyone's sincerity, because you immediately assume the person to be a snake oil salesman.
Man, are you jaded.
Do you believe that there will eventually be democrats(and republicans, too) that will come along that will shake their own party up and break the status quo?
I do. But then again, I'm a hopeless optimist. ;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ah, the old "wolf in sheeps clothing" eh? :rolleyes:
No, I'm no conservative either. You seem to have this voracious need to pigeonhole people into a unidimensional ideological continuum in a multidimensional world. Simplifying complex concepts is something we all do, but try to avoid oversimplification.
Everyone who disagrees with you is not a "lib" or a "lefty" just because they appear to agree with the opposing view. You seem to throw the label around because it marginalizes those whose ideas you oppose. If you read comments I've made throughout the years, you'll find that I consistently take a very practical view of politicians both left and right, and I take a pragmatic view toward foreign affairs.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
You'll find that I consistently take a very practical view of politicians both left and right, and I take a pragmatic view toward foreign affairs.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Yah, sure you do.:rofl Dude, I've read your posts for 4+ years. You're definately left of center. Maybe you just have a fear of being wrong, thus your impression of "Fence riding"?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
you're an idiot, right?
Did I miss something? Who called you an idiot?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Were you impressed of Obama sin Laden'speech about how great his parents were and how he's now capitalizing his political career off of their hard work?
hmmm.... isn't there a current President that.... nevermind:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yah, sure you do.:rofl Dude, I've read your posts for 4+ years. You're definately left of center. Maybe you just have a fear of being wrong, thus your impression of "Fence riding"?
This is a hoot. I want you to tell me my positions on key issues based on what you know about me. Go for it.
Notice the pigeonholing again? Now I'm a "fence rider" and soon you'll be calling me a "flip flopper."
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yah, sure you do.:rofl Dude, I've read your posts for 4+ years. You're definately left of center. Maybe you just have a fear of being wrong, thus your impression of "Fence riding"?
No Rip, DMF is correct. I am of similar persuasion. We are not party hacks, but are, as you always like to claim yourself to be, "issues men".
We only appear to be complete liberals to you because you're in denial that it is possible to agree with both sides of the sprectrum depending on the particular issue.
People like me and DMF scare party hacks, because we don't fit into the nice little political box that you can use to dehumanize us.
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Originally posted by banana
People like me and DMF scare party hacks, because we don't fit into the nice little political box that you can use to dehumanize us.
Bah, our time is coming up! Every four years, between the Conventions and the Election, each side shuffles towards the middle in a bid to grab the center vote. Neither side will openly contradict a major stand on a hotbutton issue, but instead will find lesser issues to bring everyone together
Originally Proposed by Kang (or perhaps Kodos)
Abortions for some, miniture American flags for others!
[/b]
This is the best time of the political season to straddle the fence!
-Sik
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Originally posted by Sikboy
This is the best time of the political season to straddle the fence!
-Sik
It isn't sitting on the fence. It's being on different sides of the fence depending which issue you're debating.
I don't understand the necessity of always slappng a label onto someone. There's nothing wrong with or paradoxical about being pro-life and pro-public education, to use an example of my own beliefs. Those are just two examples of how I can be seen as a conservative on one issue, and a liberal on a different issue.
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Sure sign you are a liberal...
Refuse to admit it and claim you are a "middle roader". Sounds like Kerry...
Liberal
“I can’t really classify myself because I just don’t like labels”
Conservative
“I am a conservative”
I don’t know enough about DMF but banana by all appearances you are left of center. At least with your AH BBS posting history.
Who else would start a thread like this?
Liberal vs. Liberal
You can decide which is which...
Back on topic,
I wouldn’t vote for either. I know enough about Powell but I can't see how anyone who only heard Obama for the first time last night could be already thinking "presidential run". If you read the transcripts or actually listened to the words in his speech you know he didn’t say a whole lot of anything outside the typical liberal egalitarian mantra.
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Originally posted by banana
It isn't sitting on the fence. It's being on different sides of the fence depending which issue you're debating.
Would "crossing the fence" have worked better for you?
Considering I feel the same way as you, I certainly hope I wasn't being demeaning in trying to "label" you, since whatever the outcome would be, it would apply to me just as much as you and Levi.
-Sik
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So...to be a good republican you lean right and stay right on every single issue? Don't you guys have a personal opinion? You can't disagree with the President or the Republican Party on any issue because that means you are leaning left?
My God....you guys are just obediant slaves. I feel sorry for you...I really do.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Sure sign you are a liberal...
Refuse to admit it and claim you are a "middle roader". Sounds like Kerry...
Liberal
“I can’t really classify myself because I just don’t like labels”
Conservative
“I am a conservative”
LOL Wotan. You make it sound like the highest form of intellectualism is to proclaim that "I am a conservative" or "I am a liberal".
To me, that's the highest form of narrow-mindedness.
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Curval,
Who said that? Please provide quotes.
There are liberal republicans (Powell) and conservative democrats (Miller).
It would seem you are confused on that. However you can recognize who’s what by the consistent theme that develops as they speak out on particular issues.
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Wotan, I call it how I read it on these boards.
Rip is like a republican Boroda for heavans sake.
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Originally posted by banana
LOL Wotan. You make it sound like the highest form of intellectualism is to proclaim that "I am a conservative" or "I am a liberal".
To me, that's the highest form of narrow-mindedness.
No there are some folks who are issue specific voters. Then there are those who are just too weak willed to come out and say exactly what they are.
There's no denying that I am far to the right (not religious). I voted for Pat Buchanan in 2000. I won’t vote for Bush and damn sure won't vote for Kerry.
But as I said you can recognize a liberal by the issues he's speaks out on. I don't think there is anything wrong with just coming out and saying "I am a Liberal". But most don't, they skate around it with stuff like "I don't like to label myself".
Everyone who knows Kerry's record knows he is a liberal. But he will no more admit then you.
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Originally posted by Curval
Wotan, I call it how I read it on these boards.
Rip is like a republican Boroda for heavans sake.
Np there I just didnt get the same impression and I am no Rip lover.
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Originally posted by Wotan
No there are some folks who are issue specific voters. Then there are those who are just too weak willed to come out and say exactly what they are.
You paint an incomplete picture. The electorate does contain issue specific voters just as it contains truly partisan and ideological left-leaning Democrats and truly partisan and ideological right-leaning Republicans. Those independents in the middle do not necessarily engage in issue voting, but rather their positions on ranges of issues may not fall consistently either right or left of the median. Such voters do not eschew labels, but labelling them proves difficult at best. The sorts of cues they take when deciding their vote must fundamentally differ from those taken by more partisan voters.
Interestingly, a core group of independent voters changes parties with some regularity. As it turns out, this group of transient partisans most strongly influences the general election when you aggregate vote choice. Thus while Rip decries so-called "fence sitting," it is in fact the true fence sitters who control presidential elections.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Interestingly, a core group of independent voters changes parties with some regularity. As it turns out, this group of transient partisans most strongly influences the general election when you aggregate vote choice. Thus while Rip decries so-called "fence sitting," it is in fact the true fence sitters who control presidential elections.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Hey, that's what I just said. Only all educated and ****.
-Sik
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You are right. It's more complex then my simple reply above but the point I was making is that there are an awful lot of "liberals" who for whatever reason think "liberalism" is a bad word. They aren't trying to avoid "labels" just that particular one.
Some vote on things as simple as "personality". Take Obama he didn’t really say much but some folks seem ready to vote for him today.
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Originally posted by Wotan
They aren't trying to avoid "labels" just that particular one.
Credit the Republicans (and Reagan in particular) for making "liberal" a political dirty word even if the label fits appropriately. It now carries political baggage, and note how people like Ripsnort use the term derisively rather than descriptively.
The Democrats truly dropped the ball on that one. What kind of a party allows their own labels to be used against them?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
What kind of a party allows their own labels to be used against them?
-- Todd/Leviathn
A Damn Dirty liberal party, that's who :mad:
-Sik
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I just don't understand what the hangup is over labels. Why do you guys feel compelled to be labelled?
I don't feel liberal or conservative are "dirty" words. But why the compulsion to box yourself in with a label?
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Well it's a lot easier to use a label than to write 5 paragraphs every time somebody asks you about your general outlook on life.
The trick is to find a label which is descriptive without bringing unwanted baggage along with it; this is no longer possible in the US with the terms "liberal" and "conservative".
J_A_B
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Didn't see it, so I read it.
First part, pretty typical Horatio Alger approach. Smooth, good lead-in.
Then this cheap shot jumps out at me:
that our votes will he counted — or at least, most of the time.
The recounts showed Bush winning. The SC decided. If the Dems are ever going to appeal me, they have to "get over it". They didn't get "robbed" and the continual crying that they do/did makes them look pathetic in my eyes. If the results had been Gore winning through the exact same process, would they be complaining that Gore won unfairly? Not a chance. And if you can't "flip" the result and still be in favor of it, they you are lying to yourself.
Same with the "Gore won the popular vote"; if that's supposed to mean something, all it means to me is that these folks that want their party to hold the highest office in the land don't understand our electoral system.
So, a minus for Obama here; he's just prattling the "party line" and looking stupid for doing so. IMO.
Second thing that jumps out is the "jobs" issue. Anyone who thinks a particular person or party is going to solve the problem of good paying jobs going overseas simply doesn't understand the "global economy" and "free trade" issues as they exist/are practiced right now in the USA. It isn't going to change. Period. If you can't figure out why, then do some more study on free trade and the price of labor in underdeveloped countries. As for the idea of taxing US companies more if they produce overseas.. yeah, you can do that for a short time. You do realize there's no way to stop an "American" company from becoming say, a Chinese or Mexican company, right?
He's absolutely right that we don't really give our soldiers and their families the money and respect they deserve. Of course, one has to recall which party is more likely to OK more money for the defense budget. Still, he has a good point here and it's good to hear a Democrat say it for a change.
Lastly, his Red State/Blue State commentary shows, to me, a complete misunderstanding of why which states are which color. That ties into his "people don't expect government to solve all their problems" statement, which I also find off-base.
Now, he may be a wonderful speaker...... which alone might be a welcome change for either party... but his ideas were pretty much what I'd expect to hear from a speaker at the DNC.
I'm not amazed at his insights or eager to hear more.
It was just a political speech for Dems. IMO.
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Originally posted by banana
I just don't understand what the hangup is over labels. Why do you guys feel compelled to be labelled?
I don't feel liberal or conservative are "dirty" words. But why the compulsion to box yourself in with a label?
It's probably been that way since the beginning of man. The 'us against them' mentality. 'They' are usually always wrong, evil, etc., while 'we' are usually always right, good, etc.
The need to label people into only a couple of groups (liberal or conservative, good or bad) is usually done by the weak-minded that are either too lazy and/or stupid to deal with complex issues.
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SauroS uses an example of his own theory when he labels the labelers as "weak-minded" :)
I agree with his basic point--it's human nature. And in many cases it's helpful.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
SauroS uses an example of his own theory when he labels the labelers as "weak-minded" :)
I agree with his basic point--it's human nature. And in many cases it's helpful.
J_A_B
Anyone that tries to pigeon-hole complex issues into simplistic often inaccurate 'either/or' labels is being weak-minded. ;)
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Obama is tryin' ta be white what with all dat booklearnin!
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Geez guys, even I could sniff out Rip's troll.
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Wankle re: hard time deciding.
Why would you have a hard time deciding? Even though he is a rising star, well educated speaker, and may not be a jj clone . He is still a democrete[he he].I dont know much about him but his partys values are still the same.Now I would like to see him and condaleza rice run,she is 1 smart lady,liked the way she handled that dumb laywer on 9/11 commision.
TOAD re: going a little further
The florida court ruled unlawfully .The chief justist of the supreme court of florida himself a lib. dem. said [paraphasing but close] The florida court has made a ruleing that has no bases in law, and will undoubtfully result in hurting America now and in the near future.I have no doubt but that the U. S. supreme court will have no choice but to overule this court.[said more] And they did 7 to 2.