Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MANDOBLE on May 09, 2000, 04:55:00 AM
-
What can really do a SpitIX vs 190 coalt co E?
-
Kill me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Ok, Saintaw, you are down... ...Now what can do that Spit vs 189???? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Basically that he blews it.
IF flew correctly, in a one on one Fw190 has no chances Vs Spit.
When I met a co E Spit first thing I see is if he goes for the HEadon. If he does so, I zoom up with the E that I win over him (he blews it trying to get HO),and come down to kill him.
Another common thing seen is that the SPit turns flat after the merge...again zoom up, go down and kill kill kill.
If the con zooms up as I do it too, then I dive, win speed and extend. When I win separation, loop and come back, fake HO and dive under him, zooming after it. If the con goes for the HO ,I have the upper hand. If he doesnt, then it is a matter of who wins the Headon. No chances to beat him in a close fight,and I hate Headons, so I usually break contact after second merge w/o HO try from the con.
-
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Now what can do that Spit vs 189???? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
the spit I dont know...but the Fw189 pray their last prayers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Originally posted by RAM:
the spit I dont know...but the Fw189 pray their last prayers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ok, Fw number 189 is down, we still have 188 flying, sooner or later the Spit will spent its entire ammo .... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Ram, U'll pay for that !
RAM --------> (http://geocities.com/r337m0nk3y/cwm/blah.gif)
-
188 here, and I see the pattern... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
#187 here, and I'm grabbing alt...
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
#154 here, radar on, check 6 boys. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mandoble, you just have to hope the Spitfire is stupid.
A zoom at the merge is good, like RAM says. A lot of Spits will make a flat turn, then you've got an easy shot.
However if he zooms with you, beware. If it looks like he is going to point his nose at you sooner than you can point your nose at him, use your superior speed and get out of town!
Drag him until you find help or he gives up.
When he gives up, chase him!!!!!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Drag him until you find help or he gives up.
When he gives up, chase him!!!!!
Heh funked, that is exactly how most of my co alt fight with Spit end (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
jochen
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)
Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
-
CC Jochen, the same thing works in the Typhoon. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Give me a speed advantage and some decent armament, and MUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHA! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
#152 now and...and...152????...Hehehe then the spit is DED!!!!!
TA152!! RULEEZZZ!!!!
Saw...follow me...: (http://geocities.com/r337m0nk3y/legionxs/fart.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Yeah, funked, found that out the hard way last night!!! Lessons learned:NEVER trust a Tiffy running for ack, and never be typing "Run for Ack Tiffy, LOL !" because the next moment you turn to look for the ack runner, he'll be D800 and closing!
Oh, and never trust FUNKED in any of the scenario above. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-09-2000).]
-
This is a disaster, we started with 190 planes vs only one Spit and we already lost 3... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Well, the topic was not related to 190A8, just 190 Cessnas armed with briks vs one Spit armed with shield and dagger.
Anyway, if you want to talk about 190A8 vs Spit... ...IMO the Spit is dead, it has simply no chances to win. Any combat coalt co E will finish with the Spit destroyed or with a draw. If the 190 is chased by the Spit, 190 pilot can extend to d2.5 or d3 and then just zoom climb and invert, the gained distance works in favour of the 190 in that climb, same tactic is applicable to P51D vs Spit.
-
Yeah never trust me, I play dirty. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Just ask Weazel about the last time he tried to hunt my Tiffie.
I'm gonna get my bellybutton kicked at the Con. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Sounds like we fight the same Funked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Last night this 109G6 was chasing my Pony and I kept him right at 2.5.. then closer then closer (got the hook set real good at about 1.5).
He never noticed the P-38 that I vectored right too him, and I never let my speed get so high that I ran away from him.
And then it was simply a matter of how many rounds got expended, and whether me or the 38 got the kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
Anyway, if you want to talk about 190A8 vs Spit... ...IMO the Spit is dead, it has simply no chances to win. Any combat coalt co E will finish with the Spit destroyed or with a draw. If the 190 is chased by the Spit, 190 pilot can extend to d2.5 or d3 and then just zoom climb and invert, the gained distance works in favour of the 190 in that climb, same tactic is applicable to P51D vs Spit.
Well truthfully, dunno if I would be say the spit is dead. I agree, its very easy for EITHER plane to force a draw.
If I were the spit, I would zoom after the merge and watch for the 190 to try the Immelman. If I see the lead turn coming, I zoom and wait until I've outclimbed him. At this point the 190 will have to nose down to gain speed since Im gonna outclimb him and break away. I wont even bother chasing him since Im not gonna catch him. Rather I pull up into a max climb and watch the 190 run for the hills. DRAW...and this time the spit forced it.
-Ding
-
Originally posted by Vermillion:
Last night this 109G6 was chasing my Pony and I kept him right at 2.5.. then closer then closer (got the hook set real good at about 1.5).
He never noticed the P-38 that I vectored right too him, and I never let my speed get so high that I ran away from him.
And then it was simply a matter of how many rounds got expended, and whether me or the 38 got the kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Yeah Verm, I noticed last night how you MOL over at 27 used these teamwork tactics to perfection. Dunno how many times I had to break off attacks on one plane cause another was creeping up my six. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Ding
-
I can beat or force a draw in a Spit vs 190 by using the one thing the 190 needs against it.
Speed
1st Objective - equalize E
2nd Objective - push for angle / altitude
1st Rule - don't dive after the bastage
2nd Rule - grab while chasing
This will all be modified when the A5 hits the scene. Currently there are simply too many F4U's to occupy my SA and very few 190's.
If I lose, I got ambushed or because I misjudged the 190's vs my E state. I didn't have enough E at the onset to put up a good fight. 190's spend their time getting E and generally attack with lots of it.
I don't remember the last time a 190 shot me down, except when I was flying a BUFF.
I am foolish enough to try a HO sometimes but I lose 90% of my HO's vs any plane. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Mino
The Wrecking Crew
-
Here is a new tactic thats eems to be carried over from AW3 arena's that I noticed some Spit drivers working on yesterday. I fly the F4U instead of the FW-190 but many of the characteristics are the same so see if you can follow me. Co-alt 15k Spitty fakes head on and slides to one side and down. I start a high chandellel to the right side as he passes. Watching him as I go he split-s down and back under me. Now I'm coming down and he is coming up but no angle for a shot. Now I'm screwed because I'm in a looping contest with a Spit and he is gaining slowly. Finally he is in my six so I flat sissor on the deck and hope for an overshoot which I get, but again no shot because I am to slow and can't get my nose around or upfast enough. He climbs gets an angle and I'm in the hanger looking for my key's. Personally I considered it a victory to stay alive that long. I can't stand to here people scream about the guns on the F4U because for everything it can do well there are ten it can't do at all. The worst modeled A/C in the game. Yuck!
F4UDOA
-
When you get to TA 183, let me know. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) For those of you who haven't heard of this beast, let me give you a few of the details. It was a jet powered fighter that used wire guided air-to-air missiles. It even flew, but in Argentina after the end of the war. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) According to experts it would have been the equal of the F86 and Mig15.
------------------
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
-
Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Here is a new tactic thats eems to be carried over from AW3 arena's that I noticed some Spit drivers working on yesterday. I fly the F4U instead of the FW-190 but many of the characteristics are the same so see if you can follow me. Co-alt 15k Spitty fakes head on and slides to one side and down. I start a high chandellel to the right side as he passes. Watching him as I go he split-s down and back under me. Now I'm coming down and he is coming up but no angle for a shot. Now I'm screwed because I'm in a looping contest with a Spit and he is gaining slowly. Finally he is in my six so I flat sissor on the deck and hope for an overshoot which I get, but again no shot because I am to slow and can't get my nose around or upfast enough. He climbs gets an angle and I'm in the hanger looking for my key's. Personally I considered it a victory to stay alive that long. I can't stand to here people scream about the guns on the F4U because for everything it can do well there are ten it can't do at all. The worst modeled A/C in the game. Yuck!
F4UDOA
Now please, don't take what I'm about to say as a flame, it isn't.
Worst modeled plane in the game? What do you mean? Do you mean that HTC has done a poor job recreating it, or that it has the worst flight capabilities? Either way, how do you explain that it has one of the highest kill/death ratios in the game, unless the guns assist the poorly modeled plane?
As for the fight you described, there were some options:[list=1]- You take the HO. Not a good one, as the Spit had already evaded, and you would have lost some E trying.
- When you saw him go down, you zoom up. Assuming you had lots of E on merge, you should get more out of it than him (and you do have to accurately gauge his E!). You roll back down on top of Spitty who realizes following your zoom was a bad idea. Never follow the Spit in the Split-S!
- Extend towards friendlies if E is low.
- Loop hard (good initial turn on F4U) and get a snap- you only need one.
- If you find yourself in the mess you were in, roll nose over and spiral down tightly near blackout. When speed builds, flatten out and get the hell out of Dodge. The Spit will black out before you do, so chances are you will get away.[/list=a]
Another thought; make that Spit pass on the left side of your Hawg. Turns to the left are easier at high AoA in that high-torque bird. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
-
LOL F4UDOA, you get in a Typhoon, I'll get in an F4U and we'll see who's plane is the worst-modeled!
-
The History channel sucks, read a book, hehe, the Ta 183's speed was estimated at about 597mph (the version that flew in Argentina after the war proved that its top speed was over-estimated) at 23k which places it 100 mph slower than the F86 and 60 mph of the 'studmuffinot'(that was actually the Allied reporting named for the Mig15 :P).
In rate of climb terms, the Sabre and studmuffin again blow the competition away with the Ta183 struggling along at only 4740 ft/min, the Sabre at 9.3k a min and the studmuffin at about 8.5k ft/min. There are many other comparisons I could make, but its just waste of time, I dunno who those so-called experts are, but they need to refine their research sk1| |z.
If the 183 had entered operation service after its scheduled test flight for May/June 45 and first production machines completed by 10/45, the 183 would most likely be carrying the RUHRSTAHL-KRAMER X4 (the one you see on the 183 in that History channel episode that aired this weekend), the X4 was the first guided missle with A2A capability used during World war 2 it used 2 control wires connected to 2 wings on each side of the X4, which were connected to the wing and controlled using the FuG 510 guidance system using the "Dogge" and "Meise". It would be flown to the proximty of the enemy bombers then it would automatically explode by the means of an acoustic fuse. The first X4 prototypes had straight wings but it was then realised that swept back wings on the X4 would compliment its use on faster-moving Jet aircraft, thus reducing air resistance. A warhead of 20kg or 44lb would be fitted in the nose behind the proximaty fuse that would be detonated by the noise of target bombers. All in all 1,300 of these missles were produced, however, most of them never received their engines because the BWM plant had be destroyed by allied bombers. At the end of the war during many of the X4 test flights it is beleived that severel of them were launched against allied bombers, however, the X4 was never actually deployed to the Luftwaffe.
-
Thanks Dingy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
We were in the zone last night, and things seemed to work to perfection.
Was a great couple of hours of intense fights for me.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Originally posted by bloom25:
When you get to TA 183, let me know. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) For those of you who haven't heard of this beast, let me give you a few of the details. It was a jet powered fighter that used wire guided air-to-air missiles. It even flew, but in Argentina after the end of the war. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) According to experts it would have been the equal of the F86 and Mig15.
Correction,Bloom. Mig15 was a direct develop from Ta183. You only need to see that plane to know they are at least, brothers.
F86 was developed from Ta183 in some sense,too. Sabre was going to be a straight wing jet, but captured german investigations on swept wing, including TA183 design, were used to turn it the world beater it was...although MiG15, IMHO, was a bit better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
Originally posted by MANDOBLE:
This is a disaster, we started with 190 planes vs only one Spit and we already lost 3... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Well, the topic was not related to 190A8, just 190 Cessnas armed with briks vs one Spit armed with shield and dagger.
Anyway, if you want to talk about 190A8 vs Spit... ...IMO the Spit is dead, it has simply no chances to win. Any combat coalt co E will finish with the Spit destroyed or with a draw. If the 190 is chased by the Spit, 190 pilot can extend to d2.5 or d3 and then just zoom climb and invert, the gained distance works in favour of the 190 in that climb, same tactic is applicable to P51D vs Spit.
Everytime i try to go vert with a spit on my tail when im a pony i get an bellybutton full o' lead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) The spit will be a full speed and zooms very well. I take it if he cant zoom with you, you just hammerhead and come down on a slow spit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) But not many spit drivers are that silly. Please explain you prefered procedure re zooming up with a d 2.5 sep.
Spat.
-
Originally posted by Spatula:
Please explain you prefered procedure re zooming up with a d 2.5 sep.
Zooming in vertical using only trims just with 2.5 sep and with speed advantage (increasing separation before climb). Rolling a bit while climbing but maintaining the pure vertical, going up to almost stall and then rolling again to invert and nose down. If the Spit is loosing the race at 2.5 and you go vertical with a heavier plane like 190, he will not be able to gain more than 1.7 in vertical separation to get into fire possition. He can get close, but with so low speed he will not be a stable firing platform at d0.8 or 0.9. You have gained 2.5 in horizontal separation, he has gained about 1.7 in vertical, not enough to get the kill, and not enough to evade your hammerhead. 0.9 vertical separation in a zoom climb will give the 190 the definitive E advantage for any evolving combat if hammer fails.
-
Keiren,
Not a flame at all. Appreciate the feedback.
Anyway my wine about the F4U is simple. The flight model is based on a physics model that may or may not be accurate. If there is one thing I have learned about physics models in the last year from AH is that there are many ways to solve for the same problem. But only one correct way. And that being said a physics model is only that. Just a model.
I have a Grumman report on the anticipated flight performance of the F6F. The best Grumman engineers worked on it and they were way off. I think a lot of actual flight test data gets ignored by the creators of AH. Why I don't know. Maybe they think they know more than the test pilots that flew them. I have read many, many flight test reports on the maneverabilty of the F4U at low speed and high speed. It was very good in this regard. It did however have problems trying to land on a carrier at low speed but it was still better in stabilty and control Army counter parts. Domestic and foreign except for the Spitty and it's Italian advisaries.
I know many people are totally frustrated with the killing power of the -1C. I would certainly give those cannon up if maneverability of my faithful mount were fixed. I wonder if any of those people have good numbers of how many C202 or 205's were actually used in combat. I know there were many kills acheived in the 200 hundred -1C's at Okinawa and a couple of aces as well. Also the -4 varient was overall the most produced F4U of the bunch. Uber as it might be.
Anyway I will leave you with this. In an evaluation done by the Navy in Jan. 1944 of the Fw-190A-5(soon to be in AH) vrs the F6F-3 and F4U-1D it showed that the F4U could not only out turn and loop the 190 but that from a head to head merge with the 190 that in one turn it would be in firing position behind the A-5. Also from a position directly behind the 190 that in three turns it could completely turn inside it and be on it's six again. It also rated their acceleration as being equal. Currently the F4U is slightly better than the A-8 in a turning fight. We shall see what the fighter gods bring us in the A-5(it may make you forget the -1C). As a side note while the F4U did not see combat against the Luftwaffe the F4F and F6F did. And they acheived a pretty good kill record during that time. Possibly becuase some of the data aquired in these flight test could be applied in actual combat.
Thanks F4UDOA
Flame at will...
-
F4UDOA, it is quite easy to out turn the 190 in an F4U in this game. If you can't do it, let's set up a training session.
Also that same USN report shows the Fw 190 outclimbing the F4U easily in any situation! Won't happen here.
"I think a lot of actual flight test data gets ignored by the creators of AH."
In my experience, the planes in this game match flight test data very well! F4U is dead on the numbers, so is Fw 190, etc.
-
Funked,
You are exactly right and exactly wrong in the same sentence. The F4U can out turn a Fw-190A8 in the game today. But the Flight test was against an A-5. The A-8 is a much heavier bloated model of the A-5 which was the ground attack version of the A-4 which was the best dogfighter of the A series. The question is will it out turn the A-5 as well.
Also I have a complete copy of the fight test performed. You may not have the entire report as I did not until recently. Yes the A-5 out climbed the F4U but not at all speeds and altitudes. At 140Knots or approx. 160mph the F4U was superior. From all speeds and alts up until 180knts the Fw190 was superior, until 25,000ft and 180knts were the advantage for the Fw190 decreased. And at 200knts at 25,000ft were they were again equal. Best climbing speeds for each A/C were 135knts for the F4U and 160Knts for the Fw190-A5. So the F4U climbed at a slower steeper angle than the A-5. Also the A-5 had an initial climb of roughly 3500fpm. Almost 1,000fpm better than the A-8. As far as the max speed and climb I have no problem with the text book numbers matching the game performance. Although at one time the climb was porked pretty bad. It is fixed now. What I have a problem with is that the F4U has a very low stall speed straight ahead or in a 3g turn during actual flight testing but in AH it stalls at rediculously high speeds and is regularly out turned in AH by A/C with higher wing loading. i.e. P-51, 109-G10, P-38. During testing the 3g stall speed was determined to be 150mph. That's about 50mph lower than the AH model.
I'll trade my cannons in today for better handling.
Also funked I would be happy to do two things.
A. e-mail you a copy of the full flight test as well as the P-51B vrs the F4U-1 and 1A.
(that one will really blow you away). I also have FW-190 test between it and virtually every allied fighter in production.
B. meet you in the training arena or regular arena and you can determine if I know my bellybutton from my ADI.
Thanks F4UDOA
-
LOL Nice answer F4UDOA!!!! <S>
I'd like to see anything you have!!!!!!
-
Me too, if you are so kind, send the test data to MATIAS.S@teleline.es
Flying 190A8 most of the time and having some experience with F4U1, it is clear, at least for me, that F4U can outturns 190A8 at low speeds. Used to fly 190A8, IMO F4U1 has a nice handling. Loaded with same amount of fuel, the Corsair turns as well as P51D with/without flaps at stall speeds.
-
F4UDOA,
Plz could you mail me the testinformation too? Here's my adress: maik@blackadders.de
The A-8 is a much heavier bloated model of the A-5 which was the ground attack version of the A-4 which was the best dogfighter of the A series.
Where did u get that info? As far as I know, was the A5, just an advanced series.
Some "Untermodelle" (sorry dunno the english word here :/), which means some of the A5/Rxx were later renamed to F2 and/or F3 and became the ground attack models.
I am still at work (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) (nervously lookin around), but i will check detailed data later.
Thanx
Maik
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/maik.jpg)
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 05-11-2000).]
-
Heh, just post a link to it. I want it too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
StSanta
II/JG2
-
Ditto baddawg@dogfighter.com
-
Wow,
I will send to everyone who has asked.
I whish I had someplace to post this stuff or I would. It will be zipped in JPG format.
Sorry, don't know how to scan it into Adobe.
F4UDOA
-
F4UDOA; I have web space available (free too, one of the good parts about being a Geek Wannabe (comp. sci. student).
I'll be happy to put it up.
------------------
StSanta
II/JG2
-
Me too please.
jmccaul@btinternet.com
-
Guys, I posted it on the Web:
http://www.raf303.org/funked/usn190a5.htm (http://www.raf303.org/funked/usn190a5.htm)
Thanks DOA!
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-11-2000).]
-
F4U,
A 3G stall of 150 eh? That makes for a 1G stall of 87 mph (76 knts). That's correct for an 11300 lbs airframe with FULL flaps! (according to the manual) With no flaps (ie, normal combat type turn), ur lookin' at 84 knts (power on) or 97 mph, giving a 3G stall of 168 mph.
For a 12000 lbs airframe, that goes up to 173 mph, as indicated in AHT.
-
Thanks F4UDOA for providing the document, and thanks to Funked for posting it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Interesting reading.
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Wells,
I get most of my information from two sources. One is AHT (America's Hundred Thousand) and the other is another Schiffer publication "Report Of Joint Fighter Conferance 1944". One was written by
Francis H. Dean and the other was edited by him. In any case the stall speed I gave was directly from the flight testing in which several pilots (approx. 30) listed the stall speeds in a clean, dirty and 3g accelerated condition. The result for the F4U-1D was 150mph with the range being from 130mph to 190mph. All A/C including F6F, P-51D, P-47D and M, Seafire(Spit V), F8F-1, F7F, P-38L, P-61 and FM-2 were tested with range and average given. I think this is about an accurate an accesment that could be made considering there was more than one A/C being tested as well as many pilots civilian military and British doing the testing. I think this book is a must read because of the comments received on many of these A/C.
As far as the stall speed listed in AHT well that is more complicated. I read that and thought something was wrong because of the max lift coefficient given to calculate the 3g stall speed. So I contacted the auther of AHT Francis H. Dean and found out he is my neighbor. He lives in Pa. not far from Phila. so he agreed to have me come over and dicuss this with him and sneak a peak at his research. First let me say that he is the nicest man you will ever meet and second the most knowledgable considering he has worked in the Aerospace industry as an engineer since the 50's and has many original documents that are hard to find. Hence the Fw-190 vrs F4U and F6F as well as P-51B vrs F4U-1 and many others that he has lent to me. However if you read the section on landing the F4U in AHT you will find the lift coeffient listed as being 1.88.
Which was reduced from 2.30 from the original wing design after the addition of a small spoiler strip to reduce unsymetrical stalling was added to the port wing. When Mr. Dean did his 3g stall calculation he used a much lower lift coefficient of 1.48. Were this comes from I do not know and he cannot remember (he is now 75yrs old so he is more than entitled to forget). However I did locate on the web the original NACA document listing all of the MAX lift coefficients for American iron including a whole page on the F4U special wing modification. So to make a long story short I believe the Max lift was much higher than the 3g stall speed would indicate. And the flight test results of 1944 would seem to bear that out. The following is just that document online.
http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-report-829/index.cgi?page16.gif (http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-report-829/index.cgi?page16.gif)
Also I did some ofline testing of many A/C inculing F4U, P-51, P38, Spit V and IX, N1KI, C205 and 109G10. All A/C with the exception of the Spit V and IX and N1KI had approx. the same stall speed of 100MPH indicated and a 3G stall of between 180 and 200MPH indicated at 10K. The Spits were so low as to make a 3G stall almost impossible. In any case I would guess it would occur at between 130 and 150MPH. The N1KI went out at about 150 to 160MPH. I didn't realize that most of the A/C mentioned were porked in that regard until I did the testing. In any case I am starting to ramble so I will just continue later. If you want to thank someone for the documentation I provide thank Mr.Dean. He has forgotten more about WW2 aviation than most of us will ever know.
Thanks F4UDOA
-
F4UDOA Here is your mission.
Go to Mr. Dean's house.
Scan everything!
Email it to me.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
-
Better yet, get him hooked up to this BBS and ask him to drop in and say hi (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
Actually gents my plan is to scan everything he has. And he is so nice he may let me do it. I'm trying not to be a pest but I have emailed him several times and I plan to visit him again shortly. He has volume after volume of original flight data that no Museum will ever have. It is breath taking. 40 years of research.
And yes Vermillion I did just that. I gave him the URL to the message board. I even Emailed him a copy of a P-38L flight model thread that was interesting about rate and radius calculations. I think we should get him to the next AH convention what do you think. He can tell you the story about how when he was 17yrs old in 1943 and he and his friend went to enlist in the Army Air Corps. But his mother wouldn't let him go because he was to young. A year later his friend was sending him pictures of himself flying P51's over Europe. If that were me I would wake up at night screaming for the rest of my life.
Anyway he did serve in the Navy in the South Pacific but not as an aviator. Oh well, next war right.
See Ya's
F4UDOA
-
F4UDOA,
That's cool that you know Dean! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I suspect he used the information in the flight manual to come up with that 173 mph figure and 1.48 max Cl. Also, check out page 15 of that report on the F4u, that 2.3 lift coefficient comes with full flaps. Check out every other plane in that test. Lift coefficients don't exceed 2.0 unless flaps are used and rarely exceed 1.4 without flaps.
-
Wells,
He is a great guy too.
Anyway I think I got you on the lift coefficient. I think it is without flaps as a matter of fact. Just check AHT for lift coeffients of all A/C tested at 3g's. Most are at or near 2.0. Especially carrier A/C.
FM-2=2.38
P-63=2.38
P-61=2.54
F6F-5=2.27
P-51D=1.89
P-38L=2.17
P-47D=1.93
F4U-1D=1.88 reduced from 2.30
Which would make sense considering the Hellcat has approximatley the same size wing.
In fact it has the second largest wing of any single engine fighter.
Were on page 15 does it say that flaps are down?
See Ya
F4UDOA
-
There's a symbol at the bottom for flap deflection, says = 50 degrees.
Then, check out page 20, max lift coefficient is about 1.4 with flaps up (=0 degrees).
Part of the problem here could be propwash. I don't think there's a difference between power on and power off stalls in AH, which would make a big difference in a tight turn. A 5-10 mph reduction in 1G stall speed would account for 10-20 mph in a 3G turn. This may be also what allows a Spit XIV to turn with a Spit IX, while being heavier.
-
Funked:
Thanks for posting the information!
F4UDOA:
Thanks for obtaining and distributing it!
I'd really like to see the flight tests between the P-51/F4U and the FW-190 comparisons vs. Allied fighters. Could you please send them to me. I have some WEB space and I will post the information there.
thanks,
Hooligan
[This message has been edited by Hooligan (edited 05-12-2000).]
-
F4UDOA, you should get Ronni to consider asking him to be guest speaker at the Con this fall in Texas.
I couldn't think of anyone better (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Oh, and ask him about the fabled 427mph Ki-84 tests in 1946 at Wright Field and Middletown Air Depot in PA. Maybe he knows something about them. My quest continues!
------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
-
I hope they get Mouse Shaw too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
I know this thread is getting kind of long so I may start a new one under Aircraft and Vehicles. Anyway I just finished scanning the report of the P-51B vs the F4U-1(modified) and F4U-1A(service condition).
Wells,
If you look at the top of the page on the AHT table that list lift coefficients under a 3g' stall it say's "no flaps". Also the 50% indication you saw is really 50 degrees represented as a tangent I believe. Look at the top of the page and it reviews the equation. It is for propeller efficiencey and thrust. Again 2.30 and 1.88 would put it right in mid range with the other A/C with no flaps used.
By the way, what equation are you using to calculate stall speeds at different G force?
F4UDOA
-
Stall speed varies with the square root of the G factor. If you know the 3G stall speed, you can get the 1G stall by dividing the corresponding speed by 1.732. I still disagree with the flaps. df looks alot like flap deflection to me. Tc is thrust coefficient, I see that...
I've done alot of airfoil analysis and I haven't found one yet that exceeds a Clmax of 1.7 without flaps, but as I mentioned before, the added airflow from propwash makes for a higher effective airspeed than what is indicated, so the lift force is also higher. If you use indicated airspeed in the lift equation, you will get a higher lift coefficient than if you were to use a 'corrected' airspeed to account for the propwash velocity. Given that pilots only have indicated speed to go by, this, I believe accounts for the rather high lift coefficients listed in AHT, which were seemingly calculated from the 1944 fighter conference results in a turn at full power.
For example,
An F6f stalls at 79 knots (power off) and 72 knots (power on). Why is this? Is the lift coefficient greater? no...the wing will stall at the same lift coefficient, just that there is more airflow over the inner portion of the wing than there is outboard, where the pitot tube is. But if you plug 72 knts into the lift equation, you will get a higher lift coefficient. Does that make any sense?
So much for the Spit vs 190 thread....heheh
-
Wells,
In some strange way I think we are actually agreeing. I can see that the lift-coefficient goes up with a prop spinning in front of the wing. But that doesn't change the fact the the coefficient has been incresed. All fighters listed in AHT are without flaps at a 3g turn. Of course they would only ever need to make a 3g turn with a propeller. A Hellcat is a great example. The lift coefficient is roughly proportional to the wing dimensions. Very close to the F4U. By comparision the 3g stall speed I have listed is 121knts and the power on stall is 69knts. Using your figure of 1.732 it works perfectly giving me a 1g stall of 69.86. Remember this was an actual flight test averaging results from approx. 30 pilots in 1944. Pretty amazing accuracy I think. Then take the F4U-1D test resultsof a power on 1g stall of 76Knts and a 3G stall of 150knts. According to those numbers 3g stall should be at 131.63knts. So my the 150Knts figure is actually conservative. In AH however the number is closer to 200knts IAS giving it a 1g stall of 115knts. The Navy would have let C-47's take off from it's decks before an A/C with such a high speed stall. Remember the F4U had a take of run of 700Ft. 300ft shorter than a P51, P-38. This is before catapults and JATO you know. How else would one ever make it off the deck with such a high stall?
By the way were does the number 1.732 come from? I ask a lot of questions. Hehe.
F4UDOA
-
1 knot = 1.15 mph
The AHT figure of 172.5 mph = 150 knts. Perhaps that is where the confusion lies?
1.732 is the square root of 3 (the G-factor).
The Carrier planes had 30 knts of wind (ship velocity) + the actual wind velocity as a head start!
[This message has been edited by wells (edited 05-13-2000).]