Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: SaburoS on July 28, 2004, 02:13:39 PM
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Hmmm, so maybe Kerry did rescue a fellow soldier in Vietnam.
Does that make him a hero?
Outside of his political leanings, would you concider what he did heroic?
Kerry, Former Crewmates Arrive in Boston (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040728/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_kerry_7)
Minutes later, he bounded down the steps of his plane at Boston's Logan Airport, greeted by 13 veterans, some of whom had served with him aboard a naval swiftboat in Vietnam's Mekong Delta 35 years ago. The men hugged and slapped backs.
One of the greeters was Jim Rassmann, a Special Forces officer whose life Kerry saved a generation ago.
Wounded himself, Kerry plucked Rassmann from a river in Vietnam while under fire. Their emotional public reunion last winter set the stage for Kerry's upset victory in Iowa's caucuses two days later.
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Saving another human being's life is pretty heroic in my book, whether you're under fire or not.
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You stinking liberal SOB.
;)
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Originally posted by SOB
Saving another human being's life is pretty heroic in my book, whether you're under fire or not.
And being sure to parade that feat for political purposes really negates some of the valor of the act in my book.
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Saving a life = good
Bragging about it = bad
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Saving a life = good
Bragging about it = bad
Where has he bragged about it?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
And being sure to parade that feat for political purposes really negates some of the valor of the act in my book.
Where has he done that?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Where has he done that?
You're kidding, right?
From today's news alone...5 seconds worth of searching...
"Making the slow journey across the harbor with him were a dozen members of the Navy swift boat he commanded in Vietnam, along with Jim Rassmann, a Special Forces solider whose life Kerry saved"
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040728/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp_18
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Originally posted by muckmaw
You're kidding, right?
From today's news alone...5 seconds worth of searching...
"Making the slow journey across the harbor with him were a dozen members of the Navy swift boat he commanded in Vietnam, along with Jim Rassmann, a Special Forces solider whose life Kerry saved"
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=2&u=/ap/20040728/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_convention_rdp_18
Not at all. Show me where Kerry made statements that he was a war hero. I'd like to see them.
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as far as im concerned. anyone who served in the Military, Police, Firefighter, etc. Deserves to be called a hero.
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It has been arranged so he doesnt have to say it himself. His minions do that for him, and all he has to do is say stuff like "when I was in Vietnam" or "when I came back from Vietnam"...that and have a thousand photo ops with his old "war buddies".
You really arent that bright are you Saburo?
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
as far as im concerned. anyone who served in the Military, Police, Firefighter, etc. Deserves to be called a hero.
including the latrine scrubber ?
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http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc8.htm
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Suppose I save someone from drowning. Most would agree that would be a good thing to do, and it would speak well of my character.
Suppose I then hired someone to walk five paces infront of me wherever I go carrying a sign that says "here comes Hortlund, the man who saved someone from drowning". Then I would break into ever conversation I overheard with the words "that reminds me of when I was saving someone from drowning". Would that say anything about my character?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Suppose I save someone from drowning. Most would agree that would be a good thing to do, and it would speak well of my character.
Suppose I then hired someone to walk five paces infront of me wherever I go carrying a sign that says "here comes Hortlund, the man who saved someone from drowning". Then I would break into ever conversation I overheard with the words "that reminds me of when I was saving someone from drowning". Would that say anything about my character?
Exactly.
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welp.... Saburo
If you don't call him a hero for doing that, how can you call Pat Tillman a hero? Because he died? Because he gave up money to go fight?
Kerry risked his life to save a comrads life. Does the requirement for being a hero mean that nobody can know? Or is it just that a democrat can't be one?
What about George Bush Sr.?
btw... before everyone pulls a groin muscle rushing to defend Pat Tillman.... I think he a heroic SB as well.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
It has been arranged so he doesnt have to say it himself. His minions do that for him, and all he has to do is say stuff like "when I was in Vietnam" or "when I came back from Vietnam"...that and have a thousand photo ops with his old "war buddies".
You really arent that bright are you Saburo?
Well earlier you inferred he bragged about it. I asked for proof. You obviously couldn't find it so now you go on personal attack mode (which isn't unusual for you, BTW). Hypocrit (two can play at this game).
Funny you state that I'm not that bright (never claimed I was BTW), yet you're the one that made a false statement. What does that make you? Take your choice from:
1) Liar
2) Hypocrit
3) Moron
4) Stupid
Your choice.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Suppose I save someone from drowning. Most would agree that would be a good thing to do, and it would speak well of my character.
Suppose I then hired someone to walk five paces infront of me wherever I go carrying a sign that says "here comes Hortlund, the man who saved someone from drowning". Then I would break into ever conversation I overheard with the words "that reminds me of when I was saving someone from drowning". Would that say anything about my character?
Sooooo.... John Mcain isn't a war hero than... or GB Sr.? they both have had people speak for them in the same way.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
You really arent that bright are you Saburo?
And I have had it with you're BS Hortlund. You really aren't that bright either are you? In fact you are quite stupid aren't you? Why by golly you just might be semi retarded isn't that right?
Richard Cranium!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
And I have had it with you're BS Hortlund. You really aren't that bright either are you? In fact you are quite stupid aren't you? Why by golly you just might be semi retarded isn't that right?
Richard Cranium!
I agree. I come to this boards to hear other peoples opinion. Not ingorant crap like that. Hortlund... how old are you? I ask because grownups usually know how to treat other people better.
edit... never mind I'm not interested in hearing anything else you have to say.
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Richard Cranium.... potato peeler.... I like it. :)
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Originally posted by straffo
including the latrine scrubber ?
Absolutely. A war zone is a war zone, even if it has a toilet.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
And I have had it with you're BS Hortlund. You really aren't that bright either are you? In fact you are quite stupid aren't you? Why by golly you just might be semi retarded isn't that right?
Richard Cranium!
NP MT. Funny thing is is that Hortlund really believes he's all that. He doesn't realise that insulting others like he does really shows his weakness. Since he can't prove his point (either by his faulty logic, or an honest mistake), he goes on personal attack mode. He's really lacking in the credibility dept. IMHO.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Absolutely. A war zone is a war zone, even if it has a toilet.
oups :)
In fact I was more thinking of the rear echelon
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Originally posted by straffo
oups :)
In fact I was more thinking of the rear echelon
No worries... I was thinking about Navy in particular. We had a few guys that seemed to spend a good amount of their time cleaning up and painting, but when the alarms sounds, they drop the sponges and get to their battle station.
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hehe...rear echelon...latrines....no pun intended!
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Well earlier you inferred he bragged about it. I asked for proof. You obviously couldn't find it so now you go on personal attack mode (which isn't unusual for you, BTW).
Apparently you failed completely to comprehend that my "suppose I hire someone to walk five paces infront of me shouting out my accomplishments" is in fact an analogy to what Kerry is doing in his election campaign right now. You will never hear him say "I saved that mans life and I am soo damn good" because that would be counterproductive (his ultimate goal here is to be elected president remember) instead he hires someone who says it for him "Kerry saved that mans life and he is soo damn good".
Now, if you dont understand the inherent dishonesty in this arrangement, and if you dont understand that it is infact Kerry that is doing the bragging, although through proxies, then I cant help you. Sorry.
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Kerry did just fine in Vietnam, yes he did get out early with only some minor wounds but he put himself out there and there were nno guarantees that they would only be minor wounds.
Yet I feel commpelled to ask was Kerry a "hero" when he came back to the USA and started misrepresenting and lying about his his fellow American soldiers as the worst sort of murderous manaics who commited the worst sort of attrocities - none of which he saw - just to further his own political goals?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yet I feel commpelled to ask was Kerry a "hero" when he came back to the USA and started misrepresenting and lying about his his fellow American soldiers as the worst sort of murderous manaics who commited the worst sort of attrocities - none of which he saw - just to further his own political goals?
Lied?
How would you know if he lied?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
And I have had it with you're BS Hortlund. You really aren't that bright either are you? In fact you are quite stupid aren't you? Why by golly you just might be semi retarded isn't that right?
Richard Cranium!
(http://images.neopets.com/neoboards/smilies/violin.gif)
Heh, funneh...I had enough of your BS about two years ago.
I dunno whats worse, you wanting to have some "who is brightest"-flamefest or you seeing yourself as Saburos "wingman"...
a bit too many hours playing pilot there maybe?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Apparently you failed completely to comprehend that my "suppose I hire someone to walk five paces infront of me shouting out my accomplishments" is in fact an analogy to what Kerry is doing in his election campaign right now. You will never hear him say "I saved that mans life and I am soo damn good" because that would be counterproductive (his ultimate goal here is to be elected president remember) instead he hires someone who says it for him "Kerry saved that mans life and he is soo damn good".
Now, if you dont understand the inherent dishonesty in this arrangement, and if you dont understand that it is infact Kerry that is doing the bragging, although through proxies, then I cant help you. Sorry.
Doesn't every other politician do that as well? They have people go out and speak for them. Tell epole how great they are so they don't have too. Sure, I agree that Kerry is doing that as well. It's just that most politicians don't have the Hero card to play.... or they would as well.
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did you want me to talk to you or not? Make up your mind dammit.
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he's a hero to the handsomehunk crats
you know - the ones which keep re-electing the likes of "All we have to fear is .. 4 more years of Bush" drunk murdering kennedy...
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Originally posted by Sandman
Lied?
How would you know if he lied?
Plenty here to cast doubts on his legitimacy...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/04/23/kerry.vietnam/
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Unsubtantiated fodder from an unconfirmed source...FWIW:
_______________________
"I was in the Delta shortly after he [Kerry] left. I know
that area well. I know the operations he was involved in
well. I know the tactics and the doctrine used. I know the
equipment. Although I was attached to CTF-116 (PBRs) I
spent a fair amount of time with CTF-115 (swift boats),
Kerry's command.
"Here are my problems and suspicions:
(1) Kerry was in-country less than four months and
collected, a Bronze Star, a Silver Star and three purple
hearts. I never heard of anybody with any outfit I worked
with (including SEAL One, the Sea Wolves, Riverines and the
River Patrol Force) collecting that much hardware so fast,
and for such pedestrian actions. The Swifts did a
commendable job. But that duty wasn't the worst you could
draw. They operated only along the coast and in the major
rivers (Bassac and Mekong). The rough stuff in the hot
areas was mainly handled by the smaller, faster PBRs.
(2) Three Purple Hearts but no limp. All injuries so minor
that he lost no time from duty. Amazing luck. Or he was
putting himself in for medals every time he bumped his head
on the wheel house hatch? Combat on the boats was almost
always at close range. You didn't have minor wounds. At
least not often. Not three times in a row. Then he used the
three purple hearts to request a trip home eight months
before the end of his tour. Fishy.
(3) The details of the event for which he was given the
Silver Star make no sense at all. Supposedly, a B-40 was
fired at the boat and missed. Charlie jumps up with the
launcher in his hand, the bow gunner knocks him down with
the twin .50, Kerry beaches the boat, jumps off, shoots
Charlie, and retrieves the launcher. If true, he did
everything wrong.
(a) Standard procedure when you took rocket fire was to put
your stern to the action and go balls to the wall. A B-40
has the ballistic integrity of a Frisbee after about 25
yards, so you put 50 yards or so between you and the beach
and begin raking it with your .50's.
(b) Did you ever see anybody get knocked down with a .50
caliber round and get up? The guy was dead or dying. The
rocket launcher was empty. There was no reason to go after
him (except if you knew he was no danger to you just
flopping around in the dust during his last few seconds on
earth, and you wanted some daring do in your after-action
report). And we didn't shoot wounded people. We had rules
against that, too.
(c) Kerry got off the boat. This was a major breach of
standing procedures. Nobody on a boat crew ever got off a
boat in a hot area. EVER! The reason was simple. If you had
somebody on the beach your boat was defenseless. It
couldn't run and it couldn't return fire. It was stupid and
it put his crew in danger. He should have been relieved and
reprimanded. I never heard of any boat crewman ever leaving
a boat during or after a firefight.
"Something is fishy.
"Here we have a JFK wannabe (the guy Halsey wanted to court
martial for carelessly losing his boat and getting a couple
people killed by running across the bow of a Jap destroyer)
who is hardly in Vietnam long enough to get a good tan,
collects medals faster than Audie Murphy in a job where
lots of medals weren't common, gets sent home eight months
early, requests separation from active duty a few months
after that so he can run for Congress, finds out war heroes
don't sell well in Massachusetts in 1970 so reinvents
himself as Jane Fonda, throws his ribbons in the dirt with
the cameras running to jump start his political career,
gets Stillborn Pell to invite him to address Congress and
Bobby Kennedy's speechwriter to do the heavy lifting, winds
up in the Senate himself a few years later, votes against
every major defense bill, says the CIA is irrelevant after
the Wall came down, votes against the Gulf War, a big
mistake since that turned out well, decides not to make the
same mistake twice so votes for invading Iraq, but oops,
that didn't turn out so well so he now says he really
didn't mean for Bush to go to war when he voted to allow
him to go to war.
"I'm real glad you or I never had this guy covering out
flanks in Vietnam. I sure don't want him as Commander in
Chief. I hope that somebody from CTF-115 shows up with some
facts challenging Kerry's Vietnam record. I know in my gut
it's wildly inflated. And fishy."
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George Bush Jr= Micheal Moore.
-SW
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Is he a liar? Judge for yourself.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125138
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Not at all. Show me where Kerry made statements that he was a war hero. I'd like to see them.
He didn't say Kerry called himself a war hero. He said " being sure to parade that feat for political purposes ".
Kerry didn't talk to this guy for 30+ years, then trots him out when he is running for President.
It doesn't matter whether or not you consider what he did heroic, but to claim he isn't parading it around for political purposes is idiotic.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Apparently you failed completely to comprehend that my "suppose I hire someone to walk five paces infront of me shouting out my accomplishments" is in fact an analogy to what Kerry is doing in his election campaign right now. You will never hear him say "I saved that mans life and I am soo damn good" because that would be counterproductive (his ultimate goal here is to be elected president remember) instead he hires someone who says it for him "Kerry saved that mans life and he is soo damn good".
I comprehended exactly what you said in this post and earlier. Seems you have a problem with it.
You care to show proof of that or are you just assuming now. Care to show the facts?
Let's clear this up.
Your first statement here you inferred that Kerry bragged about being a hero.
I have yet personally see any statement by him that backs you up there. You have yet to post anything to back you up. I'm sure you probably Googled it but failing to find anything, you made an assumed/theory that you furnish as proof. You have any proof of this latest statement as well? I'd sure like to see it.
BTW, bragging: to talk boastfully : engage in self-glorification
I asked for proof, you couldn't furnish it. You had to insult instead, not surprising coming from you, btw.
Originally posted by Hortlund
Now, if you dont understand the inherent dishonesty in this arrangement, and if you dont understand that it is infact Kerry that is doing the bragging, although through proxies, then I cant help you. Sorry.
Any proof? Please post it.
All I see from you here is that failing to provide proof of an earlier statement, you present a theory of a possible scenario in the Kerry camp.
You need to get off that high horse you ride. Arrogance is quite unbecoming of you.
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Originally posted by AKS\/\/ulfe
George Bush Jr= Micheal Moore.
-SW
you're young but you ain't that stupid
change your lure
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Originally posted by Martlet
He didn't say Kerry called himself a war hero. He said " being sure to parade that feat for political purposes ".
Kerry didn't talk to this guy for 30+ years, then trots him out when he is running for President.
It doesn't matter whether or not you consider what he did heroic, but to claim he isn't parading it around for political purposes is idiotic.
What do you do, jump in the middle of a thread ignoring the first part?
He claimed Kerry bragged about it.
He didn't. I have yet to see proof he did.
Oh I agree that this latest 'promotion' is for political purposes. That's what political parties and politicians do. Every political party brings out the positives in their candidate. It would be stupid not to, no?
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Originally posted by Hortlund
It has been arranged so he doesnt have to say it himself. His minions do that for him, and all he has to do is say stuff like "when I was in Vietnam" or "when I came back from Vietnam"...that and have a thousand photo ops with his old "war buddies".
Do you honestly need me to prove this Saburo? Just turn on the tv for crying out loud, its the DNC right now, you can probably catch a good 20 hours of it.
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This is rich.
Back on topic.
Hmmm, so maybe Kerry did rescue a fellow soldier in Vietnam.
Does that make him a hero?
Outside of his political leanings, would you concider what he did heroic?
Added:
He's running for the most important position in the United States.
You expect him to suppress it? You expect the political party he's in to sweep it under the rug?
Every single candidate has used their positives for promotion.
Cunningham in his Vietnam service. Eisenhower.
How is what Kerry doing that is so 'dishonest' and 'bragging'?
Oh I get it. It's because he's a Democrat!
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Originally posted by SaburoS
What do you do, jump in the middle of a thread ignoring the first part?
He claimed Kerry bragged about it.
He didn't. I have yet to see proof he did.
Oh I agree that this latest 'promotion' is for political purposes. That's what political parties and politicians do. Every political party brings out the positives in their candidate. It would be stupid not to, no?
Don't blame me because you can't follow a thread.
Where I quoted, he DIDN'T say he bragged about it. Hortland did. I was commenting on YOUR reply to muckmaw. Let me refresh your memory, since you're having trouble following.
muckmaw said: "And being sure to parade that feat for political purposes really negates some of the valor of the act in my book."
You quoted that, and asked "Where has he done that?"
Then muckmaw quoted that, and said: "You're kidding, right?
From today's news alone...5 seconds worth of searching...
"Making the slow journey across the harbor with him were a dozen members of the Navy swift boat he commanded in Vietnam, along with Jim Rassmann, a Special Forces solider whose life Kerry saved"
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...nvention_rdp_18
__________________"
Then you quoted THAT, and said: "
Not at all. Show me where Kerry made statements that he was a war hero. I'd like to see them."
Then I responded. You can't even keep track of your own conversation. NOW you admit muckmaw was right to begin with, after arguing that point originally. You've been hanging around Kerry too long. Flip Flop Flip Flop.
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Kerry = War Hero.
Bush Jr = War Zero.
-SW
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The Republicans are just lashing out because they have NOTHING to counter Kerry's military service record.
I can really see this happening at the RNC:
"President Bush had an emotional reunion with buddies from Ground School Class H-172. The members slapped each other on the back and recalled the harrowing moments in class before turning in their homework. "I had a paper cut" one of the members recalled, "I was bleeding slightly, but George reached out and gave me a linen hankey to stop the bloodflow. He saved my life."
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Do you honestly need me to prove this Saburo? Just turn on the tv for crying out loud, its the DNC right now, you can probably catch a good 20 hours of it.
How far are you going to spin this?
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Originally posted by rpm371
The Republicans are just lashing out because they have NOTHING to counter Kerry's military service record.
We don't have to counter his military service record. His COs did that. All of them.
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Martlet,
Oops, you're right, I got you mixed up in the wrong response (Doh!). Sorry.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Do you honestly need me to prove this Saburo? Just turn on the tv for crying out loud, its the DNC right now, you can probably catch a good 20 hours of it.
They carry the DNC in Sweden Richard?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
How far are you going to spin this?
What spin? Are you honestly arguing that the Kerry campaign is not using his Vietnam stories to prop him up as a hero?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Martlet,
Oops, you're right, I got you mixed up in the wrong response (Doh!). Sorry.
No problem. Don't forget that, though.
I'm ALWAYS right. :aok
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Originally posted by Hortlund
What spin? Are you honestly arguing that the Kerry campaign is not using his Vietnam stories to prop him up as a hero?
No, not at all. It's what any politician/party would do, have done, will do.
You made a statement that he brags about it. It would kind of piss me off too if any candidate kept saying "I'm a war hero, see what I did in Vietnam? I saved another's life!" Now THAT would be bragging.
I have no problem that others bring up the positives in their candidate of choice. You expect his party not to bring it up?
I take it you have a problem with Cunningham having his Vietnam experiences being brought up? How about Bush's in WWII?
Like it or not, Kerry's a hero for his part in saving the life of his fellow soldier.
He's not being 'propped'. No more so than Cunningham or Bush was.
If you just don't like Kerry for his politics, so be it. Can't take away his valor for his action, though. You disrespect his heroic act, otherwise.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
(http://images.neopets.com/neoboards/smilies/violin.gif)
Heh, funneh...I had enough of your BS about two years ago.
I dunno whats worse, you wanting to have some "who is brightest"-flamefest or you seeing yourself as Saburos "wingman"...
a bit too many hours playing pilot there maybe?
How terrible for you! There must have been some accident or head trauma that precludes you from understanding sarcastic rhetoric. I don't want a flamefest with you... that would be unfair.... for you.
Let me help you a little more. The wingman comment was based on the fact that Subaro had no trouble dealing with your idiotic condescension. He didn't need my help. You on the other hand, do need help. Maybe sometime after puberty you'll see the light.
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Next on "when attempts at sarcasm goes awry".
Grow up MT, at least try to act your age.
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weak Richard.
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Click here MT and everyone else (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/member2.php)
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Originally posted by Curval
You stinking liberal SOB.
;)
LOL, I've been at lunch and a job interview, so I missed this until now. Well, at least I ain't a dirty "fence-sitter"! Thank god for that! :D
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
Click here MT and everyone else (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/member2.php)
?? blank page.
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Of course he's a hero. I'm sure he could have got a place in the National Guard, but he went to Viet Nam. Thats pretty heroic in my book. I think I'd have opted for the safer rout - like a certain President we know. The Republicans can attack the Democratic platform on many fronts, but to attack Kerry personaly is plain stupid and will hurt them more than Kerry. He has a military record that contains REAL combat and purple hearts, and he's objectively smarter than Bush.
It would be a dangerous game for the Republicans to attack Kerry on a personal level instead of the platform. Clinton was a much easier target and even that didn't work too well.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
I think I'd have opted for the safer rout - like a certain President we know.
Kerry did try to opt for the safer route out. He got turned down.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
It would be a dangerous game for the Republicans to attack Kerry on a personal level instead of the platform.
Then why the constant personal attacks? Oh wait, they CAN'T run on their record...
Hence this ad nausiastidiotic bs.
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Edbert mol re: kerry hero
Thank you for an excellent post.I to have problems with his story but could not say anything better than you have.I have heard it said he was in most dangerous area of the war. I dispute that try being a tunnel rat,that is neither here nor there though. I still have to come down on the side of him being a hero.Nothing he did could have been staged,and even if he picked his moments we know he could have been wrong and there could have been ten in the bush or even in tunnel waiting for him.Leaving his command was stupid[ even against regs] unless he was going to save someone and gave orders to take boat to safety.So I think anyone who has been in harms way should use it if running for office or anything else, just please let someone else do it.
BUT,just because someone was heroic isnt a gaurantee of character,and he has none. Remember benedict arnold he was a hero and the best field general in America bar none,but lacked character.What he did when he came back made me sick.I know people that had same fellings when they came back but would do nothing to harm moral of those still there.
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>>Kerry did try to opt for the safer route out. He got turned down.<<
I dunno - post the facts to back it up - and please NO RUSH LIMBAUGH links.
Lets say that is true for the sake of argument. Do you think it would be wise for Bush to challenge Kerry's military record??
You can't honestly believe that would be a smart thing to do.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Kerry did try to opt for the safer route out. He got turned down.<<
I dunno - post the facts to back it up - and please NO RUSH LIMBAUGH links.
Lets say that is true for the sake of argument. Do you think it would be wise for Bush to challenge Kerry's military record??
You can't honestly believe that would be a smart thing to do.
do a search on any engine for kerry deferment, or something of the like and pull your own facts that are to your liking.
When has Bush challenged Kerry's record? He doesn't have to. Kerry's own service members do that.
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>>When has Bush challenged Kerry's record? He doesn't have to. Kerry's own service members do that.<<
No, Bush supporters do that and it stupid and is going to blow up in their face. Only something so stupid as that could make people forget about the likes of MM, Hilary Clinton, and Al Shaprton. Viet Nam was a hell hole, just as Iraq is a hell hole. ANYONE deriding people who served there are just inviting trouble. But go ahead. See if it works.
Clinton didn't WIN in 1992 - Bush LOST through STUPID strategies. George W. could very well lose this election through the same stupid choices.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
No, Bush supporters do that and it stupid and is going to blow up in their face.
I disagree, and so do every single one of Kerry's Vietnam COs.
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
http://www.drudgereport.com/dnc8.htm
Then, the NYT’s Bill Keller wrote a column trashing Kerry as “the ersatz J.F.K., who fancies himself a global strategist because 30 years ago he faced down a Vietcong ambush” (see THE DAILY HOWLER, 8/13/02). Kerry’s a plenty strange dude, Keller said. “[W]ith all due respect for his exploit,” the scribe asked, “how utterly weird is it that he then took out his handy 8-millimeter camera and re-enacted his heroism on film?” But oops! In a later column, Keller acknowledged that he had misstated the content of Kerry’s “home movies” from Vietnam (see THE DAILY HOWLER, 9/9/02). “[T]he senator’s movies are not self-aggrandizing. Mr. Kerry is hardly in the film,” Keller said. Where had Keller obtained his bogus info? Where else? He had relied on the “usually dependable” Boston Globe, the misinformed Times pundit said.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
?? blank page.
crap nm then ill fix it later.
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RPM371 AND TWEETY BIRD re: bush,guard and smarts
You seem to take pleasure in bashings bushes gaurd duty and intelligence. You also give clinton a pass on lying and running away. Ok here are some facts, at anytime the guard could have been sent to vietnam , especially pilots during the time we were losing so many. Every time you get into a cockpit especially a fighter your risk of dieing increases 35 percent, dont believe me?Ask dean martins son,oh ya cant he died in an f 4 phantom a guard phantom. Lets see bush somehow got out of guard duty early,excuse me how did kerry get out of the nam early when no one else could,Dont give me that wounded three times bs cause thats what it is.
Intelligence, bushes grade point avg was 1 full grade higher than clintons when they graduated. In fact his grades were better than many who are saying he lacks intelligence.
Tell me tweety bird what do you know about veitnam,or iraq for that matter.Iraq is a hell of lot less of a hell hole than veitnam was.Why? BECAUSE f------ johnson and mcnamare would not let us fight to win. for the most part we were able to fight in desert storm and iraq why because someone like bush is commander in chief.The DEMOCRATIC leadership lost vietnam not the grunts.
Check this out you all are crying about 900 dead that all you can say 900 dead....well fool we lost 50000 in vietnam
score bush....900
johnson 50000 you choose.
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>>I disagree, and so do every single one of Kerry's Vietnam COs.<<
We'll I guess we'll see in November (hopefully not December again). See I *can't* overlook MM, Hliary, Al Sharpton etc.
But idiodic stunts like challenging someone's honest service to his country could just make me vote in anger, and I suspect I'm not alone in this. Yea - Kerry just packed away his 8mm cam, strolled on over to a fire fight for the soul reason of self promotio. Sell it to a ditohead - I aint buying.
And BTW - who ever said I gave Clinton a pass - I HATED CLINTON and never once voted for him. I don't vote for prostitutes.
The was every reason to challenge Clinton on character issues. Trying the same thing on Kerry is stupid , because they aren't there. He did his duty and it foolish to believe it was only because he couldn't get out of it.
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Check to see how many f-102 pilots were sent to VN.
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Midnight............
If you were responding to me,you did your normal thing say nothing about the truth of the post but pick a little line and try a little twist.Thats ok you can do what you want.
Your twist is dumb,the f 102 means nothing,he was also checked out in f 105 .Ok smartie check and see what plane had the highest shoot down rate.See I can do it to.
Just how long do you think it would take a fighter pilot to be checked out in another fighter,a week if it was during the time we were losing so many . Or do you believe once in a certain fighter always in that fighter? The guard was always used as replacement or back up which in a way was even more dangerous ,until the demos and yes people like you that vote for them made the military so small that now we have to use them as front line troops.Every time a demo gets in first thing he does is cut the military to the bone,something happens sends them in with pop guns like somalia. Rep. gets in has to rebuild military, duh, what happens defict.[ok simplistic but some truth]
If the 102 response wasnt for me than this isnt for you.If it was ya I am hot ,I am afraid kerry with the help of bozos like the ones in here will win. Then my son will be left in the cold like in somalia, not be able to fight to win like vietnam,or just plain killed because you all turned your back on him and the military.
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Midnight............
If you were responding to me,you did your normal thing say nothing about the truth of the post but pick a little line and try a little twist.Thats ok you can do what you want.
Your twist is dumb,the f 102 means nothing,he was also checked out in f 105 .Ok smartie check and see what plane had the highest shoot down rate.See I can do it to.
Just how long do you think it would take a fighter pilot to be checked out in another fighter,a week if it was during the time we were losing so many . Or do you believe once in a certain fighter always in that fighter? The guard was always used as replacement or back up which in a way was even more dangerous ,until the demos and yes people like you that vote for them made the military so small that now we have to use them as front line troops.Every time a demo gets in first thing he does is cut the military to the bone,something happens sends them in with pop guns like somalia. Rep. gets in has to rebuild military, duh, what happens defict.[ok simplistic but some truth]
If the 102 response wasnt for me than this isnt for you.If it was ya I am hot ,I am afraid kerry with the help of bozos like the ones in here will win. Then my son will be left in the cold like in somalia, not be able to fight to win like vietnam,or just plain killed because you all turned your back on him and the military.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
I don't vote for prostitutes.
What's wrong with prostitutes?
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>>What's wrong with prostitutes?<<
They are not genuine.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Their actions are not genuine.
You can always pretend, right?!
Mostly, they are unclean.
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lol tweety... editied from:
"intentions not genuine"
to
"actions not genuine"
to
"they aren't genuine".
I shudder to think what it'll be once I finish this post...
What's with y'all? Say something and, right or wrong, ride the horse like ya mean it! :D
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>>lol tweety... editied from:
"intentions not genuine"
to
"actions not genuine"
to
"they aren't genuine".
I shudder to think what it'll be once I finish this post...
What's with y'all? Say something and, right or wrong, ride the horse like ya mean it!
<<
lol- sorry, but it was meant to be terse. Gota have the right words when being terse :D
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I hear ya.... I do that watermelon all the time. :)
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Is he a liar? Judge for yourself.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125138
<<>> Touche Hortlund!
:aok
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[
lol- sorry, but it was meant to be terse. Gota have the right words when being terse :D [/B][/QUOTE]
All Kerrys squadies called him a liar and a slanderer.
I think he wounded himself to get out of duty and to give himself
purple hearts
I think he is a coward
I think democrats are fools
Including the ones in my squad
Hows that for terse? :D
oh and he has a lawyer for a running mate
How sick is that?
ahh just my humble opinion...
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Originally posted by Martlet
Kerry did try to opt for the safer route out. He got turned down.
False. Kerry volunteered for duty in Viet Nam. Naval personnel had to be volunteers to be assigned in-country.
except Naval Corpsmen assigned to Marine units, that is.
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Originally posted by Airhead
False. Kerry volunteered for duty in Viet Nam. Naval personnel had to be volunteers to be assigned in-country.
except Naval Corpsmen assigned to Marine units, that is.
Didn't know that Airhead. That explains why my Dad didn't have to serve in Vietnam (he enlisted in '60-61).
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>>I think he wounded himself to get out of duty and to give himself
purple hearts
I think he is a coward
I think democrats are fools
Including the ones in my squad
Hows that for terse?
oh and he has a lawyer for a running mate
How sick is that?
ahh just my humble opinion...
<<
I'm sure you do, and I'm just as sure I dont care :) But for the record, I am not a Democrat. I'm an informed Republican. It really is possible to be conservative AND informed. I remember the body count totals on the nightly news in the 60's. I remember the pictures of the body bags and the wounded soldiers that came into the living room every evening. You remember the totals don't you? "The United states suffered 8 casualities, the Viet Cong suffered 1500 casualties."
Then people started wondering "why the hell aren't we winning this by attrition???"
Yea Kerry went there to fake injuries. Uhhuh. That was a big problem in the 60's - people going to Viet Nam for notorioty:rolleyes:
I'm quiite capable of bringing it to the next level if thats what you really want.
You can sit here and attack the Democratic party for trying to shove social issues down our throat, and I'll be right behind you. You start attacking Viet Nam vets, and we're going to have a major problem.
In 1965, the greatest fear of parents was not that their son was going to be fat and develope diabetes, but that he was going to be shipped over to that hell hole. So much for the happy meal generation.
Now *THATS* terse and genuine.
Edit: I apolgize x2lee. Its a personal issue with me. Everone has their views. Viet Nam is just extremely personal for my family and the nutso comes out. But thats my problem.
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what does it matter what this loser did 30+ years ago??
the guy is sad sack of crap TODAY and the majority of the voters will know that by Nov
Landslide Bush!!!
(http://system.gocampaign.com/joenixon_com/images/gwb.jpg)
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Originally posted by Eagler
the guy is sad sack of crap TODAY and the majority of the voters will know that by Nov
Hmmm... like last time? Bush couldn't manage the majority of voters against a door knob like Gore.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
They are not genuine.
Neither are politicians. ;)
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>I think he wounded himself to get out of duty and to give himself
purple hearts
I think he is a coward
I think democrats are fools
Including the ones in my squad
Hows that for terse?
oh and he has a lawyer for a running mate
How sick is that?
ahh just my humble opinion...
<<
I'm sure you do, and I'm just as sure I dont care :) But for the record, I am not a Democrat. I'm an informed Republican. It really is possible to be conservative AND informed. I remember the body count totals on the nightly news in the 60's. I remember the pictures of the body bags and the wounded soldiers that came into the living room every evening. You remember the totals don't you? "The United states suffered 8 casualities, the Viet Cong suffered 1500 casualties."
Then people started wondering "why the hell aren't we winning this by attrition???"
Yea Kerry went there to fake injuries. Uhhuh. That was a big problem in the 60's - people going to Viet Nam for notorioty:rolleyes:
I'm quiite capable of bringing it to the next level if thats what you really want.
You can sit here and attack the Democratic party for trying to shove social issues down our throat, and I'll be right behind you. You start attacking Viet Nam vets, and we're going to have a major problem.
In 1965, the greatest fear of parents was not that their son was going to be fat and develope diabetes, but that he was going to be shipped over to that hell hole. So much for the happy meal generation.
Now *THATS* terse and genuine.
Terse, genuine and extermely well said, TweetyBird. :aok
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Originally posted by Airhead
False. Kerry volunteered for duty in Viet Nam. Naval personnel had to be volunteers to be assigned in-country.
except Naval Corpsmen assigned to Marine units, that is.
False.
Kerry applied for a deferment and got turned down.
Originally posted by TweetyBird
I'm sure you do, and I'm just as sure I dont care :) But for the record, I am not a Democrat. I'm an informed Republican.
Informed? Then why do you have to ask for sources to back up the most basic points? How informed is that?
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Originally posted by Martlet
False.
Kerry applied for a deferment and got turned down.
Informed? Then why do you have to ask for sources to back up the most basic points? How informed is that?
I think you're gonna have to back that up Martlet. Why would a guy seek deferment, then when he gets turned down volunteer for hazardous duty. Seems silly doesn't it?
And the guys saying the most about Kerry's heroism are his shipmates. Seems like all of them are on board. Go figure.
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The same Department of Defence that says Kerry deserved 3 Purple Hearts says GWBush deserved an honorable discharge.
I think we all should resolve to accept both decisions.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I think you're gonna have to back that up Martlet. Why would a guy seek deferment, then when he gets turned down volunteer for hazardous duty. Seems silly doesn't it?
And the guys saying the most about Kerry's heroism are his shipmates. Seems like all of them are on board. Go figure.
Deferment (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/07/wkerr07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html)
Kerry's deferment request is common knowledge. The fact that you don't know something about him that was as publicized as that shows you should get your news from someplace other than moveon.org. How can you support a candidate you don't have even basic information about on a topic you're discussing?
You say all of Kerry's shipmates are on board? Do you read anything other than Kerry's blog? You know the picture Kerry constantly used of him and his shipmates?
Go check out how many of those pictured support him. (http://www.swiftvets.com/)
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
[B
You can sit here and attack the Democratic party for trying to shove social issues down our throat, and I'll be right behind you. You start attacking Viet Nam vets, and we're going to have a major problem.
[/B]
Etch, your my friend and squaddy. that being said,
no way would I attack vets, I feel we owe them so much. My father is a VN vet. What he did AFTER the war is what I find so deplorable, the protests and throwing away SOMEONE elses medals. and all his squad called him a liar! He said they were baby killers and yada yada yada....
That carries a lot of weight imo.
As far as the democrats being fools? They have the likes of Ted Kennedy in thier ranks
Thats like having Voss in your squad only worse...
I dont think Voss is a murderer whereas I think TK is.
it really really surprizes me that democrats can actually be democrats. Ans it surprizes me even more that folks I respect can
be among the ranks of fools.
YMMV
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I am a Republican. Why anyone would attack Kerry's war record is beyond me. Kerry saved a man's life, his boat scored 20 kills, then Kerry testified in front of congress to get our country out of the Vietnam War.
He might deserve the Presidency just for doing that.
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ya... but if you look at it THAT way, you can't hate him! What's up with that??:rolleyes:
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The Fitreps were interesting. Did well on the initial ones. slammed on the later ones.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
I am a Republican. Why anyone would attack Kerry's war record is beyond me. Kerry saved a man's life, his boat scored 20 kills, then Kerry testified in front of congress to get our country out of the Vietnam War.
He might deserve the Presidency just for doing that.
But kerry said all the kills were old women and children.
And threw his buddies medals away because of it.
I would love to know the truth before judging someone so harshly
but all I know is what I read about him.
His squadmates testimonies mean more that ANYTHING
else I have read, they were beside him.
They said he made poor decisions and put them in harms way
If you cannot command a boat, how can you be CIC?
And the protesting of the war, I dont hold that against him , its his 1st amendment right, but to call his squad baby killers was a bit over the top? Or do you think they did all he said they did?
And if he did? He is a baby killer and killer of old ladies.
Illegal orders? Well then why wasnt he vocal at the time?
COWARDICE, one way. Liar for personal gain the other.
You pick.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
I am a Republican. Why anyone would attack Kerry's war record is beyond me. Kerry saved a man's life, his boat scored 20 kills, then Kerry testified in front of congress to get our country out of the Vietnam War.
He might deserve the Presidency just for doing that.
I wasn't there. It's not for me to attack Kerry's war record. His COs and shipmates were there, though. They have every right to attack it, and the majority of them are. That speaks volumes to me.
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Pass the chest waders please , the BS from Kerry camp is running high the press is on band wagon again ....
http://www.swiftvets.com/index.php?topic=SwiftVetQuotes
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Originally posted by rpm371
The Republicans are just lashing out because they have NOTHING to counter Kerry's military service record.
Dubya and sKerry are running for the Commander-in-Cheif position of the military, not some leutenant of a small boat. If you want to compare actual experience in the position they are asking to get then Dubya's got it covered. Compare how the current CinC has managed the current war, then contrast that with how his predecessor ran the operations in say...Somalia. There was gross micromanagement and constrained ROE that cost lives. I understand we cannot say that sKerry would be the same as Klinton in his management of the military by directing operations from 1600 Pensylvania and worried only about how things would look in the polls. But that is sort of the point, we DO know how Dubya will act as CinC and how he will give latitude to the commanders on the ground to prosecute battles as they see fit. We don;t know how skerry will. Some would say they'd rather have the devil they don't know than the devil they have now, if thats how you feel then fine. You still have to admit that Dubya has more experience for the role they are being chosen for than skerry, who in his role as member of the senate intelligence committee has MISSED over 75% of the sessions.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Saving a life = good
Bragging about it = bad
LMAO, look who's talking!
Amazing...
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Originally posted by SunTracker
I am a Republican. Why anyone would attack Kerry's war record is beyond me.
It is what he did AFTER he got out of Nam that gives most folks reason to question him.
_______________
Eighteen Navy combat veterans and commanders went on the record opposing John Kerry's bid for the Presidency, including the entire chain of command above Lt. Kerry in Vietnam, and men who had fought at his side.
More than 250 Swift boat veterans have now signed an open letter to Senator Kerry challenging his fitness to serve as commander-in-chief of America's armed forces.
"We resent very deeply the false war crimes charges he made coming back from Vietnam in 1971 and repeated in the book "Tour of Duty." We think those cast an aspersion on all those living and dead, from our unit and other units in Vietnam. We think that he knew he was lying when he made the charges, and we think that they're unsupportable. We intend to bring the truth about that to the American people.
We believe, based on our experience with him, that he is totally unfit to be the Commander-in-Chief."
-- John O'Neill, spokesman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
"I do not believe John Kerry is fit to be Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces of the United States. This is not a political issue. It is a matter of his judgment, truthfulness, reliability, loyalty and trust -- all absolute tenets of command. His biography, 'Tour of Duty,' by Douglas Brinkley, is replete with gross exaggerations, distortions of fact, contradictions and slanderous lies. His contempt for the military and authority is evident by even a most casual review of this biography. He arrived in-country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future. He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard for specific tactical assignments. He was a 'loose cannon.' In an abbreviated tour of four months and 12 days, and with his specious medals secure, Lt.(jg) Kerry bugged out and began his infamous betrayal of all United States forces in the Vietnam War. That included our soldiers, our marines, our sailors, our coast guardsmen, our airmen, and our POWs. His leadership within the so-called Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testimony before Congress in 1971 charging us with unspeakable atrocities remain an undocumented but nevertheless meticulous stain on the men and women who honorably stayed the course. Senator Kerry is not fit for command."
-- Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann, USN (retired), chairman, Swift Boat Veterans for Truth
"During Lt.(jg) Kerry's tour, he was under my command for two or three specific operations, before his rapid exit. Trust, loyalty and judgment are the key, operative words. His turncoat performance in 1971 in his grubby shirt and his medal-tossing escapade, coupled with his slanderous lines in the recent book portraying us that served, including all POWs and MIAs, as murderous war criminals, I believe, will have a lasting effect on all military veterans and their families.
Kerry would be described as devious, self-absorbing, manipulative, disdain for authority, disruptive, but the most common phrase that you'd hear is 'requires constant supervision.'"
-- Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired)
"In my specific, personal experience in both coastal and river patrols over a 12-month period, I never once saw or heard anything remotely resembling the atrocities described by Senator Kerry. If I had, it would have been my obligation to report them in writing to a higher authority, and I would certainly have done that. If Senator Kerry actually witnessed or participated in these atrocities or, as he described them, 'war crimes,' he was obligated to report them. That he did not until later when it suited his political purposes strikes me as opportunism of the worst kind. That he would malign my service and that of his fellow sailors with no regard for the truth makes him totally unqualified to serve as Commander-in-Chief."
-- Jeffrey Wainscott
"I signed that letter because I, too felt a deep sense of betrayal that someone who took the same oath of loyalty as I did as an officer in the United States Navy would abandon his group here (points to group photo) to join this group here (points to VVAW protest photo), and come home and attempt to rally the American public against the effort that this group was so valiantly pursuing.
It is a fact that in the entire Vietnam War we did not lose one major battle. We lost the war at home... and at home, John Kerry was the Field General."
-- Robert Elder
"My daughters and my wife have read portions of the book 'Tour of Duty.' They wanted to know if I took part in the atrocities described. I do not believe the things that are described happened.
Let me give you an example. In Brinkley's book, on pages 170 to 171, about something called the 'Bo De massacre' on November 24th of 1968... In Kerry's description of the engagement, first he claimed there were 17 servicemen that were wounded. Three of us were wounded. I was the first..."
-- Joseph Ponder
"While in Cam Rahn Bay, he trained on several 24-hour indoctrination missions, and one special skimmer operation with my most senior and trusted Lieutenant. The briefing from some members of that crew the morning after revealed that they had not received any enemy fire, and yet Lt.(jg) Kerry informed me of a wound -- he showed me a scratch on his arm and a piece of shrapnel in his hand that appeared to be from one of our own M-79s. It was later reported to me that Lt.(jg) Kerry had fired an M-79, and it had exploded off the adjacent shoreline. I do not recall being advised of any medical treatment, and probably said something like 'Forget it.' He later received a Purple Heart for that scratch, and I have no information as to how or whom.
Lt.(jg) Kerry was allowed to return to the good old USA after 4 months and a few days in-country, and then he proceeded to betray his former shipmates, calling them criminals who were committing atrocities. Today we are here to tell you that just the opposite is true. Our rules of engagement were quite strict, and the officers and men of Swift often did not even return fire when they were under fire if there was a possibility that innocent people -- fishermen, in a lot of cases -- might be hurt or injured. The rules and the good intentions of the men increased the possibility that we might take friendly casualties."
-- Commander Grant Hibbard, USN (retired)
"Lt. Kerry returned home from the war to make some outrageous statements and allegations... numerous criminal acts in violation of the law of war were cited by Kerry, disparaging those who had fought with honor in that conflict. Had war crimes been committed by US forces in Vietnam? Yes, but such acts were few and far between. Yet Lt. Kerry gave numerous speeches and testimony before Congress inappropriately leading his audiences to believe that what was only an anomaly in the conduct of America's fighting men was an epidemic. Furthermore, he suggested that they were being encouraged to violated the law of war by those within the chain of command.
Very specific orders, on file at the Vietnam archives at Texas Tech University, were issued by my father [Admiral Elmo Zumwalt] and others in his chain of command instructing subordinates to act responsibly in preserving the life and property of Vietnamese civilians."
-- Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC (retired)
"We look at Vietnam... after all these years it is still languishing in isolated poverty and helplessness and tyranny. This is John Kerry's legacy. I deeply resent John Kerry's using his Swift boat experience, and his betrayal of those who fought there as a stepping-stone to his political ambitions."
-- Bernard Wolff
"I served with these guys. I went on missions with them, and these men served honorably. Up and down the chain of command there was no acquiescence to atrocities. It was not condoned, it did not happen, and it was not reported to me verbally or in writing by any of these men including Lt.(jg) Kerry.
In 1971, '72, for almost 18 months, he stood before the television audiences and claimed that the 500,000 men and women in Vietnam, and in combat, were all villains -- there were no heroes. In 2004, one hero from the Vietnam War has appeared, running for President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief. It just galls one to think about it."
-- Captain George Elliott, USN (retired)
"In 1971, when John Kerry spoke out to America, labeling all Vietnam veterans as thugs and murderers, I was shocked and almost brought to my knees, because even though I had served at the same time and same unit, I had never witnessed or participated in any of the events that the Senator had accused us of. I strongly believe that the statements made by the Senator were not only false and inaccurate, but extremely harmful to the United States' efforts in Southeast Asia and the rest of the world. Tragically, some veterans, scorned by the antiwar movement and their allies, retreated to a life of despair and suicide. Two of my crewmates were among them. For that there is no forgiveness. "
-- Richard O'Mara
"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
-- Steven Gardner
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Originally posted by SunTracker
I am a Republican. Why anyone would attack Kerry's war record is beyond me. Kerry saved a man's life, his boat scored 20 kills, then Kerry testified in front of congress to get our country out of the Vietnam War.
He might deserve the Presidency just for doing that.
SunTracker ,
" Vote Democratic , It's easyer Than Thinking !!!!
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http://www.reformer.com/Stories/0,1413,102~8860~2296681,00.html
"If John Kerry called us today and said he had one more swift-boat mission and we were going to hell, he would have a full crew," said James Wasser, Kerry's second-in-command.
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Originally posted by SunTracker
I am a Republican. Why anyone would attack Kerry's war record is beyond me. Kerry saved a man's life, his boat scored 20 kills, then Kerry testified in front of congress to get our country out of the Vietnam War.
He might deserve the Presidency just for doing that.
His commanders are attacking his war record. I guess they would know. His doctors are attacking his purple hearts, they treated him, I guess they'd know. He put himself in for every award he got. I know several dozen Vietnam veterans who declined decorations ranging from the Purple Heart to the Silver Star. Kerry is the ONLY ONE I've ever even heard of who put himself in for a Purple Heart for a wound that required a band aid, or who put himself in for a Silver Star. This guy ain't Audie Murphy, he ain't even John F. Kennedy, and anyone who thinks he is must be a moron.
Hell, my father had multiple shrapnel wounds from mortar fire in Korea, he was in the hospital for them, and he didn't even get a Purple Heart.
He testified in front of Congress because it was popular to be a war protester, and not popular to be a war hero. And he lied. He went before Congress with known imposters who were not only not there, they were not even soldiers. For figuratively spitting on the graves of soldiers who died there, and for disgracing the uniform, he deserves to have his prettythang kicked. For helping to get the country to pull out of Vietnam after some 55,000 soldeirs died there, instead of going to Hanoi and stomping Ho Chi Minh flat, he deserves to be made a hero of communist Vietnam.
Maybe we should not have gone to Vietnam, but when we did, we should have gone there to win, and once we got there we should have done the job. Anything less is an insult to each and every one of those 55,000 plus soldiers who lost their lives.
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Originally posted by Saintaw
LMAO, look who's talking!
Amazing...
What do you mean?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
http://www.reformer.com/Stories/0,1413,102~8860~2296681,00.html
How many people in a crew? There are far more vocal shipmates against him than for him. Far more.
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Originally posted by Martlet
How many people in a crew? There are far more vocal shipmates against him than for him. Far more.
Not true. If by shipmates you mean Kerry's crew.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Not true. If by shipmates you mean Kerry's crew.
They said they were unpaid supporters. I doubt it. And they
are 3 strong...
Commander skerry says, "good job the check is in the mail"
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Ok, so his crew is mad because he claimed warcrimes were taking place in Vietnam, and by people in his unit.
Well warcrimes were rampant in Vietnam. The biggest being free-fire zones and calling artillery in on villages.
Unless someone can show that Kerry got people under his command killed due to incompetence, the utmost respect should be shown for this man's service to his country.
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His crew isn't mad. His crew is still with him today, supporting him.
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The guy has more waffles than IHOP for crying out loud. Just this week alone, from HIS campaign not the RNC:
Flip:
http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2004/07/28/20040728_134402_dnc7.htm
DEMS CLAIM NASA LEAKED PHOTOS TO SMEAR
Kerry campaign manager Mary Beth Cahill claims 'dirty tricks' by NASA after it released 'surprise' photographs showing the Dem presidential hopeful dressed in a space suit crawling through a rocket hatch.
Cahill, asked by FOXNEWS whether it was a dirty trick, said: 'Well, what do you think?' No photos were supposed to be taken, she said.
Flop:
http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/localstoryN0729KERRYPHOTOFLAPS.htm
Furthermore, NASA spokesman Bill Johnson said the Kerry campaign asked
that the pictures be taken of the senator's unusually up-close tour of the
Discovery and that processing be expedited so reporters could have them.
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
The guy has more waffles than IHOP for crying out loud. Just this week alone, from HIS campaign not the RNC:
No one in the sea, is stronger than he!
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Originally posted by X2Lee
They said they were unpaid supporters. I doubt it. And they
are 3 strong...
That's strange, I saw no less than 6 of them with JK recently and tonight there will be a few more. These are shipmates that fought along side him.
But, don't let the facts get in the way of your truth now.
< edit >
Forgot to add a barb...
How many of GWB's Guardmates have greeted him with a bearhug like JK's shipmates did to him yesterday?
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
The guy has more waffles than IHOP for crying out loud. Just this week alone, from HIS campaign not the RNC:
Flip:
http://www.drudgereportarchives.com/data/2004/07/28/20040728_134402_dnc7.htm
DEMS CLAIM NASA LEAKED PHOTOS TO SMEAR
Kerry campaign manager Mary Beth Cahill claims 'dirty tricks' by NASA after it released 'surprise' photographs showing the Dem presidential hopeful dressed in a space suit crawling through a rocket hatch.
Cahill, asked by FOXNEWS whether it was a dirty trick, said: 'Well, what do you think?' No photos were supposed to be taken, she said.
Flop:
http://www.floridatoday.com/!NEWSROOM/localstoryN0729KERRYPHOTOFLAPS.htm
Furthermore, NASA spokesman Bill Johnson said the Kerry campaign asked
that the pictures be taken of the senator's unusually up-close tour of the
Discovery and that processing be expedited so reporters could have them.
Funny that you claim that Kerry is 'Flip, flopping' here. Where does he flip, flop?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The same Department of Defence that says Kerry deserved 3 Purple Hearts says GWBush deserved an honorable discharge.
I think we all should resolve to accept both decisions.
:aok
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"Is Kerry a hero?"
Yes, as well as the best choice for hope, security, freedom and properity!. God bless him.
Landslide Kerry!!!!
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*And yet once again, Thrawn curses his luck for being born in Canada instead of the US...thus robbing him of any possible way of voting for Kerry, his master and guiding star.
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You are just jealous because Kerry is going to become the President of the United States.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
You are just jealous because Kerry is going to become the President of the United States.
No, to be honest I am terrified of that. The consequences for most of the western world would be disasterous. Which is why it is so very important that he loses.
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No!
The consequences for most of the western world would be disasterous if Bush wins. That is why it is so very important that he doesn't.
...wow this is easy.
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I said it first. You lose.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Deferment (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/07/wkerr07.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/07/ixnewstop.html)
Kerry's deferment request is common knowledge. The fact that you don't know something about him that was as publicized as that shows you should get your news from someplace other than moveon.org. How can you support a candidate you don't have even basic information about on a topic you're discussing?
Martlet, I don't want to put words in your mouth here.
1) Is this really common knowledge? I mean that article quotes:
[A senior Republican strategist, who asked not to be named, said: "I've not heard this before. This undercuts Kerry's complaints about Bush and it continues to pose questions as to his credibility among ordinary Vietnam veterans."]
if it was so common as you claim, I'd think the "senior Republican strategist" would of known by it.
I'm not saying that Kerry didn't apply for a deferment as I just don't know. Do you have any other links from a more common source that would have a bit more detail?
2) Are you inferring that because Kerry (might have) requested a one year deferment, that he was trying to skirt out of his duty?
If so, why on earth would he enlist in the Navy at a time of warfare and check off that he was willing to go to a warzone? kind of stupid if you ask me. He should of done the smart thing and volunteered for the National Guard and checked off that he wasn't willing to go to Vietnam. My father was in the Navy and he didn't volunteer for which I'm glad.
(BTW, for the record, Bush, Cheney, Clinton, etc., did the right thing in trying to avoid the war. It wasn't one of the "good" ones. It was a lost cause. Clueless politicians (Democrat and Republican) got us in a no win situation there. Oh, we won the battles if we're talking body count, but we lost the war because we didn't have a clear objective. Over 2 million Vietnamese lost their lives, over 50 thousand of our own lost theirs. What a terrible waste. IMHO)
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Funny that you claim that Kerry is 'Flip, flopping' here. Where does he flip, flop?
I thought it obvious...
flip = the photos were taken without permission and leaked as a dirty (I could hear the "vast right wing conpiracy" stuff) republican trick.
flop = the photos were taken upon request and their release was expedited by his own campign staffers.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
*And yet once again, Thrawn curses his luck for being born in Canada instead of the US...thus robbing him of any possible way of voting for Kerry, his master and guiding star.
*And yet once again, Hortlund curses his luck for being born in Sweden instead of the US...thus robbing him of any possible way of voting for Bush, his master and guiding star. He's missing out on dating Ann Coulter, too.
All kidding aside...
Hortlund, you travel to the US often? If so, what parts did you visit and what did you think of the people and the places?
If not, do you plan to?
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
I thought it obvious...
flip = the photos were taken without permission and leaked as a dirty (I could hear the "vast right wing conpiracy" stuff) republican trick.
flop = the photos were taken upon request and their release was expedited by his own campign staffers.
Ahh that's what you saw in it. Kind of reaching, don't you think?
You're blaming Kerry directly here on a theory of yours?
It doesn't make sense why the Dems would do this. Even if what you think happened, how would the Democrats benefit here?
LOL, I mean these photos actually do make Kerry look like a oompa loompa. NOT a benefit to his election. Kind of reminds me of Dukakis looking like a goofy dork when he was riding that M1 tank for a photo op.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
*And yet once again, Thrawn curses his luck for being born in Canada instead of the US...thus robbing him of any possible way of voting for Kerry, his master and guiding star.
Who are you voting for Hortlund?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Ahh that's what you saw in it. Kind of reaching, don't you think?
You're blaming Kerry directly here on a theory of yours?
Not reaching at all, read the links. Both contradictory positions were formally taken by his campaign within a day or two of each other. The kerry campaign is arguing with itself for crying out loud.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Who are you voting for Hortlund?
hehe
-
Originally posted by SaburoS
Martlet, I don't want to put words in your mouth here.
1) Is this really common knowledge? I mean that article quotes:
[A senior Republican strategist, who asked not to be named, said: "I've not heard this before. This undercuts Kerry's complaints about Bush and it continues to pose questions as to his credibility among ordinary Vietnam veterans."]
if it was so common as you claim, I'd think the "senior Republican strategist" would of known by it.
I'm not saying that Kerry didn't apply for a deferment as I just don't know. Do you have any other links from a more common source that would have a bit more detail?
2) Are you inferring that because Kerry (might have) requested a one year deferment, that he was trying to skirt out of his duty?
If so, why on earth would he enlist in the Navy at a time of warfare and check off that he was willing to go to a warzone? kind of stupid if you ask me. He should of done the smart thing and volunteered for the National Guard and checked off that he wasn't willing to go to Vietnam. My father was in the Navy and he didn't volunteer for which I'm glad.
(BTW, for the record, Bush, Cheney, Clinton, etc., did the right thing in trying to avoid the war. It wasn't one of the "good" ones. It was a lost cause. Clueless politicians (Democrat and Republican) got us in a no win situation there. Oh, we won the battles if we're talking body count, but we lost the war because we didn't have a clear objective. Over 2 million Vietnamese lost their lives, over 50 thousand of our own lost theirs. What a terrible waste. IMHO)
1. Do your own search for "kerry deferment" then. 6200 links to choose from.
2. Dunno. Maybe because since his deferment was denied, he was going to get drafted. Joining the Navy is far better than being a grunt in country.
According to Front Page (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13378) and others when Kerry applied for swift boat duty, they were primarily used as ferries. Only after he applied were they used for combat. Then 4 months after that happens he's gone.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Not true. If by shipmates you mean Kerry's crew.
You mean these (http://www.swiftvets.com/) guys?
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Originally posted by Martlet
1. Do your own search for "kerry deferment" then. 6200 links to choose from.
2. Dunno. Maybe because since his deferment was denied, he was going to get drafted. Joining the Navy is far better than being a grunt in country.
According to Front Page (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=13378) and others when Kerry applied for swift boat duty, they were primarily used as ferries. Only after he applied were they used for combat. Then 4 months after that happens he's gone.
1) Figured since you said it was common knowledge, why not link a more common, mainstream source?
2) Why on earth would he indicate that he was willing to serve in Vietnam then? If he was afraid of combat, he should have chosen the Air National Guard, and also indicate that he wasn't willing to serve in Vietnam. His character back then of 'trying to avoid the war' is not the same as that of rescuing a fellow soldier in combat.
-
he served in combat zone hes a combat veteran. its what he did after he got home that disgusts some including myself. lied in govt hearing and introduced others to lie in govt hearing. threw someone else medals in protest thats plain wrong you wear a medal earned in combat you wear it not for yourself but for others in military as well. and bush was full qualified fighter pilot wasnt he? not an easy job title to earn regardless of him screwing up reserve attendance. i heard he put in to fly in vn but program made unavailable to guys flying his aircraft after he put in request with buddy. anyone know if this is true?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
1) Figured since you said it was common knowledge, why not link a more common, mainstream source?
2) Why on earth would he indicate that he was willing to serve in Vietnam then? If he was afraid of combat, he should have chosen the Air National Guard, and also indicate that he wasn't willing to serve in Vietnam. His character back then of 'trying to avoid the war' is not the same as that of rescuing a fellow soldier in combat.
1. You discredited my source, I told you where you can find one you are happy with. My job isn't to keep throwing up sources until your hair tingles. There were 6200 to choose from. Knock yourself out.
2. I don't know. Neither do you. All we can do is read what others say and speculate.
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Originally posted by Sandman
No worries... I was thinking about Navy in particular. We had a few guys that seemed to spend a good amount of their time cleaning up and painting, but when the alarms sounds, they drop the sponges and get to their battle station.
that and most who arent Sailors have no idea how dangerous environment warship can be even when not in combat. they also have no idea how much hard work involved being on any warship.
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anyone else find it really funny that kerry bent over backwards saying military service of president dont matter when clinton was running for office of president? now a bunch of democrat trying to make this a huge matter of importance? :)
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Originally posted by Martlet
You mean these (http://www.swiftvets.com/) guys?
No, I mean his crew.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
No, I mean his crew.
None of those guys were his crew? Who is his crew?
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Originally posted by rpm371
The Republicans are just lashing out because they have NOTHING to counter Kerry's military service record.
I can really see this happening at the RNC:
"President Bush had an emotional reunion with buddies from Ground School Class H-172. The members slapped each other on the back and recalled the harrowing moments in class before turning in their homework. "I had a paper cut" one of the members recalled, "I was bleeding slightly, but George reached out and gave me a linen hankey to stop the bloodflow. He saved my life."
what kind of fighters were you trained to fly in the air force dude?
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Originally posted by Martlet
1. You discredited my source, I told you where you can find one you are happy with. My job isn't to keep throwing up sources until your hair tingles. There were 6200 to choose from. Knock yourself out.
2. I don't know. Neither do you. All we can do is read what others say and speculate.
1) You claimed it was common knowledge then linked an uncommon source. I even quoted your own linked article on how even a 'senior Republican strategist' didn't even know it which you referred to as "common knowledge." I'm not discrediting your source at all as it doesn't prove your "common knowledge" statement.
You care to post a link that would better show it to be common knowledge? I'll settle for one as the one you linked doesn't.
2) Agreed, we don't know. The only ones that know for sure are those that actually served with Kerry, his crew. Those that weren't with him on those missions would be speculating as well, including his CO's.
This is what I personally see in Kerry(BTW, I'm not a big supporter of his- I just think he's going to win in November, hence my $20. bet):
1) For his action in saving the life of a fellow soldier...Hero in my book.
2) Symbolicly throwing away 'his' medals in protest (but actually keeping them) is hypocritical.
There are many other instances that make me go "hmmmm, I wonder" but I don't have the facts. That's why I'm asking questions here. I want to know the truth. So far not finding the facts to support most charges.
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Originally posted by Martlet
None of those guys were his crew? Who is his crew?
No, these guys were his crew.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-cvn-band-of-brothers,1,1001806.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines
Oh ... Here's some more (http://news.bostonherald.com/election2004/view.bg?articleid=19101)
The only of Kerry's crewmates to criticize him, Steve Gardner, yesterday said Kerry ``made indecisive moves'' that put their boat in jeopardy.
ONE! Out of .... well more than one.
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Just a question for those who are military veterans and would know:
Is it possible for a soldier to put in for medals for himself? I thought any such recommendation had to come from his senior officer?
If so, how common a practice is this?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
1) You claimed it was common knowledge then linked an uncommon source. I even quoted your own linked article on how even a 'senior Republican strategist' didn't even know it which you referred to as "common knowledge." I'm not discrediting your source at all as it doesn't prove your "common knowledge" statement.
You care to post a link that would better show it to be common knowledge? I'll settle for one as the one you linked doesn't.
Fine. It's not "common knowledge". It's still fact.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
No, these guys were his crew.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/wire/sns-ap-cvn-band-of-brothers,1,1001806.story?coll=sns-ap-politics-headlines
Oh ... Here's some more (http://news.bostonherald.com/election2004/view.bg?articleid=19101)
ONE! Out of .... well more than one.
So weren't the guys in the photo I linked to. Just because you don't like the truth, doesn't make it any less true.
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Originally posted by anonymous
anyone else find it really funny that kerry bent over backwards saying military service of president dont matter when clinton was running for office of president? now a bunch of democrat trying to make this a huge matter of importance? :)
I recall seeing Bush's Air National Guard service being played before the 2000 election as Clinton didn't have any military service at all. That comparison benefitted him at the time. Now that he has an opponent that has a 'stronger' military background, why do they seem so intent on ignoring Bush's service history?
I take it you find it equally funny on both of these accounts, right? I mean obviously you're talking about how biased 'those people' are and you're not.
Welcome to the wonderful world of politics, if you can't beat him, attack him with a vengence.
Both sides play that game. Republican and Democrat.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Fine. It's not "common knowledge". It's still fact.
The only fact that i see is someone making a statement, but not furnishing proof.
I'll agree that it may be fact, but then again it might not be. Again, we don't know.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
I recall seeing Bush's Air National Guard service being played before the 2000 election as Clinton didn't have any military service at all. That comparison benefitted him at the time. Now that he has an opponent that has a 'stronger' military background, why do they seem so intent on ignoring Bush's service history?
I take it you find it equally funny on both of these accounts, right? I mean obviously you're talking about how biased 'those people' are and you're not.
Welcome to the wonderful world of politics, if you can't beat him, attack him with a vengence.
Both sides play that game. Republican and Democrat.
i dont remember anyone making big deal about bush jr being in national guard. show me some examples and refresh my memory? and kerry is quotes as saying that military service not matter for pres when clinton was being questioned about his service in england. you dont find hipocritical that all of a sudden democrat think military is important? most democrat politician dont give a damn about military or intelligence services. only reason they care right now is their candidiot is a vn veteran. a vn veteran who lied about his brothers in arms for political gain.
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Kerry is no more a hero then he is a "war criminal". Some of you seem to overlook the fact the guy came out of Vietnam and admitted to participating in what he termed "war crimes".
Like every thing else the tard wants to have it every way and Sunday.
Doing your duty doesn't make you a hero. Had he ran and left his shipmate then he would have been derelict in his duty.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
The only fact that i see is someone making a statement, but not furnishing proof.
I'll agree that it may be fact, but then again it might not be. Again, we don't know.
Like I said. 6200 sources citing it, not one saying it isn't true. Including wikopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry)
And as to our last point, let's just take it straight from the horse's mouth:
As a lieutenant junior grade, Kerry skippered a CTF-115 swift boat, a light, aluminum patrol vessel that bore a passing resemblance to PT-109. He thought he'd arranged to avoid combat.
"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," he later would tell the Boston Globe. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling, and that's what I thought I was going to do."
World Net Daily via Boston Globe (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37453)
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shuckins......Only for purple heart and it has to be verified.
Suburos...how can you say kerry has a stronger military background. Since 2001 bush has presided over 2 very successfull invasions, The very very great majority of combat vets respect him as cnc and believe he is watching there back[ not like johnson]
In most cases he let them fight, although there are many problems home land hasnt been hit yet[it will be] and you can find a way to compare this to 4 months...how?
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Originally posted by anonymous
i dont remember anyone making big deal about bush jr being in national guard. show me some examples and refresh my memory? and kerry is quotes as saying that military service not matter for pres when clinton was being questioned about his service in england. you dont find hipocritical that all of a sudden democrat think military is important? most democrat politician dont give a damn about military or intelligence services. only reason they care right now is their candidiot is a vn veteran. a vn veteran who lied about his brothers in arms for political gain.
Sorry, but I don't have links. Going by memory only. That's when I first remember his being in the Air National Guard. LOL, no they didn't make him out to be a hero, either. They didn't make it a big deal.
Yeah, I find a lot of things hypocritical in politics. You mean to disagree and say the Republican party is clean in all of this? Only the Democrats are hypocritical? C'mon, I'm hoping you know better. I have absolutely no problem of any candidate (Republican, Democrat, whatever) of highlighting the positives of their background. I would expect them to. You wouldn't?
I would really like to see some specifics from the politician. Sadly, I have yet to see any. I don't have an easy choice this Nov.
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Kerry Admitting to war crimes (http://www.wintersoldier.com/audio/kerry2.mp3)
Claims many Vietnam Vets admit to widespread war crimes (http://www.wintersoldier.com/audio/warcrimes.mp3)
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Being a fighter pilot -- for that matter, simply taking off in a single-engine jet fighter of the Century series, such as an F-102, or any of the military's other marvelous bricks with fins on them -- presented a man, on a perfectly sunny day, with more ways to get himself killed than his wife and children could imagine in their wildest fears.
-- Tom Wolfe, The Right Stuff.
By the same token, any fellow wearing a Silver Star deserves a lot of respect in my book.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Kerry Admitting to war crimes (http://www.wintersoldier.com/audio/kerry2.mp3)
Claims many Vietnam Vets admit to widespread war crimes (http://www.wintersoldier.com/audio/warcrimes.mp3)
Swift boat Veterans for truth (http://rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/c04/c04050404_antikerry.rm)
oops meant to edit my last post and add the other link, I hit quote by mistake...
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Originally posted by demaw1
shuckins......Only for purple heart and it has to be verified.
Suburos...how can you say kerry has a stronger military background. Since 2001 bush has presided over 2 very successfull invasions, The very very great majority of combat vets respect him as cnc and believe he is watching there back[ not like johnson]
In most cases he let them fight, although there are many problems home land hasnt been hit yet[it will be] and you can find a way to compare this to 4 months...how?
Sorry, you're talking to one who's against the war. His handling of this situation I'll just say I don't agree with and we'll leave it at that.
How about we compare apples to apples? Bush has zero combat experience. He has not seen combat, period. He doesn't know the fear of being fired upon. He doesn't know what it's like to see your fellow soldiers get wounded or killed. He doesn't know what it's like to take the life of another in combat.
Those points are important to me in a CIC if he's going to send our brave men and women in harms way.
Bush has led a sheltered life and just doesn't know what it's like. He still doesn't know what it's like. His pulling the trigger early on in Iraq shows to me that he thinks of his soldiers as pawns.
Like it or not, that's how I see it. I felt the same way about Clinton as well.
Do I think that Kerry's 'all that and a bag of chips?' No. I still have questions about him.
I won't be voting for Bush (like that was a big surprise).
I answered your question, now answer mine.
What military experiences did Bush have before he became President that led you to believe that he would be a good CIC?
Why didn't you pick Gore then? He served in Vietnam as well.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Sorry, but I don't have links. Going by memory only. That's when I first remember his being in the Air National Guard. LOL, no they didn't make him out to be a hero, either. They didn't make it a big deal.
Yeah, I find a lot of things hypocritical in politics. You mean to disagree and say the Republican party is clean in all of this? Only the Democrats are hypocritical? C'mon, I'm hoping you know better. I have absolutely no problem of any candidate (Republican, Democrat, whatever) of highlighting the positives of their background. I would expect them to. You wouldn't?
I would really like to see some specifics from the politician. Sadly, I have yet to see any. I don't have an easy choice this Nov.
my problem with kerry is the personal hypocracy. when it was "in" and "cool" to hate the military after vn war he jumped on the bandwagon when he knew better from personal experience. now thirty years gone and most of antiwar mantra and accusation are known to be naive at best intentional lying at worst and all of a sudden here is kerry the "honorable" vn vet. he betrayed every guy doing his duty when he lied before govt hearings. bad enough for some democrat hack to do so. even worse when its someone who served and knows the reality from the lies.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Sorry, you're talking to one who's against the war. His handling of this situation I'll just say I don't agree with and we'll leave it at that.
How about we compare apples to apples? Bush has zero combat experience. He has not seen combat, period. He doesn't know the fear of being fired upon. He doesn't know what it's like to see your fellow soldiers get wounded or killed. He doesn't know what it's like to take the life of another in combat.
Those points are important to me in a CIC if he's going to send our brave men and women in harms way.
Bush has led a sheltered life and just doesn't know what it's like. He still doesn't know what it's like. His pulling the trigger early on in Iraq shows to me that he thinks of his soldiers as pawns.
Like it or not, that's how I see it. I felt the same way about Clinton as well.
Do I think that Kerry's 'all that and a bag of chips?' No. I still have questions about him.
I won't be voting for Bush (like that was a big surprise).
I answered your question, now answer mine.
What military experiences did Bush have before he became President that led you to believe that he would be a good CIC?
Why didn't you pick Gore then? He served in Vietnam as well.
you are ignoring the fact that military experience not matter for cic because that is job of military advisor to cic. soldiers as pawns? you are seeing it wrong. i served under reagan bush sr. clinton and bush jr. and i dont think any cic the us has ever had has seen soldiers as pawns.
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anonymous,
Thank you for your responses.
Actually I thank most here for their reasoned, heartfelt responses without resorting to the childish mudslinging. We may disagree but it was refreshing to have a civil discussion ! This is helping me get over the bug I got.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Like I said. 6200 sources citing it, not one saying it isn't true. Including wikopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kerry)
And as to our last point, let's just take it straight from the horse's mouth:
World Net Daily via Boston Globe (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=37453)
Alvin York was a consciencious objector at first too. Not a hero?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Alvin York was a consciencious objector at first too. Not a hero?
What has that got to do with anything I said?
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You were making the point that since Kerry applied for a deferment he wasn't a hero. I think the connection is pretty clear.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You were making the point that since Kerry applied for a deferment he wasn't a hero. I think the connection is pretty clear.
Alvin York Applied for a deferment, volunteered for safe duty, put himself in for a medal after his CO said no, left the service after 3 1/2 months in theatre, accused his shipmates of war crimes and admitted to them himself, and had every single one of his COs say he wasn't fit to be CIC?
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Uh... yea.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Uh... yea.
:rolleyes:
That's what I thought.
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saburos Very happy to answer question
Saburos,I tell ya thanks for a reasoned and responsible answer I do respect it and good luck.
I didnt vote for bush because of military experance,but for character and guts. I am 50/50 on his domestic policies,but he stood tall when so many tried to tear him down before election.
When he was asked whom he admired most in history he said Jesus Christ, now I dont care if you are a holy roller or god hater he knew the lambbasting he would get from all sides of the elite for saying his truth and stuck by it.
Also when the dems. tore him apart saying he was stupid and such yet I knew he had been a fighter pilot,no he wasnt stupid.
When they said ah he went into the guard so he wouldnt have to go to the nam in such a demeaning way and yet defended clinton lying to stay out of service,it wasnt hard for me to see which side had at the time more charecter.Yes I know about gore..but with his changeing opinions with the wind, not to mention the stupid ideas in his book,I realize he did have a god and that god was the enviroment, and that scared me.
Many good and brave men have said when you strap on a jet fighter you have a 35percent higher chance of dieing even in peace time.He could have been a cook.
Fired on, no he doesnt but he has been president during the time of war and I believe any right thinking man in that position feels every bullet fired as did fdr,lincoln,clinton etc.the question is how they reack.
He knows what it is like as president to watch 2 buildings come down killing thousands and 1 building hit killing many.No just like F.D.R. and pearl harbour,Lincoln and gettysburg,he knows and no one in the united states but him has that expearance.
Take life in combat.
No he doesnt not one on one. but he knows the pain of having to make the decision to take much life to protect America,and stand by that decision when so many lie and twist and try to tear America down includinf so many Americans.There was debate before the war, our troops are in harms way ,the time for debate is over untill they come home than do what u want.
I believe there is only one point you should be concerned with,what do those in harms way think of him ,his leadership,his character. A very huge amount of the military trust his leadership,short of nukes he gives all the weapons we have,he doesnt ask how many dead,take the city no give it back no go take it no give it back. to a point he lets the military do there job, I PROMISE KERRY WONT.
Talk to the troops ,talk to my son, give them the person they trust because like it or not they are there. Dont amke them go thru what our generation did with johnson because a vote for kerry is the same as a vote for johnson then.
sorry about the lenth.
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>>Welcome to the wonderful world of politics, if you can't beat him, attack him with a vengence.
Both sides play that game. Republican and Democrat.<<
Yup. Sorry I went off in some of the posts -this is just run of the mill political BS that isn't worth the time. Just vote and try to find. objective sources.
Its a "none of the above" world:(
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>>How many people in a crew? There are far more vocal shipmates against him than for him. Far more.<<
Well I'm counting 13 on the stage right now. How many can a 50 foot boat hold??? Or perhaps you're lieing to me, an if so, why?
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Originally posted by Martlet
No problem. Don't forget that, though.
I'm ALWAYS right. :aok
At least once you were'nt.
And used the "run away" move.
Here, page 3:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83574
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>How many people in a crew? There are far more vocal shipmates against him than for him. Far more.<<
Well I'm counting 13 on the stage right now. How many can a 50 foot boat hold??? Or perhaps you're lieing to me, an if so, why?
Why does the left spin when their argument goes in the toilet? Again, 13 people on stage. Far more opposition on the links I posted.
Like I said, you may not like the truth, but that doesn't change it.
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Originally posted by Naso
At least once you were'nt.
And used the "run away" move.
Here, page 3:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83574
HA! Hatred and obsession run deep. You actually read through 4 months of posts to find ONE that I forgot to reply to.
Good Job, Watson, you've outed me again! :aok :aok :aok
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Originally posted by Martlet
HA! Hatred and obsession run deep. You actually read through 4 months of posts to find ONE that I forgot to reply to.
Good Job, Watson, you've outed me again! :aok :aok :aok
LOL, Sherlock, after you played the arse in that way there (insults included), I did'nt forgot it, was just waiting the occasion to pop the thing up again.
:D
Hatred?
WOW, you read too much in this BBS stuff.
:eek:
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Originally posted by Naso
LOL, Sherlock, after you played the arse in that way there (insults included), I did'nt forgot it, was just waiting the occasion to pop the thing up again.
:D
Hatred?
WOW, you read too much in this BBS stuff.
:eek:
Sorry, I'll drop the hatred and apply a double order of obsession. Keep digging through the archives, I'll bet you find another! :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Martlet
Sorry, I'll drop the hatred and apply a double order of obsession. Keep digging through the archives, I'll bet you find another! :rofl :rofl :rofl
No need, you're still running.
:aok
:rofl :rofl
:rolleyes: :p :D :lol
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Originally posted by Martlet
Why does the left spin when their argument goes in the toilet? Again, 13 people on stage. Far more opposition on the links I posted.
Like I said, you may not like the truth, but that doesn't change it.
A CREWMATE is a person who is in the CREW. The CREW are the other people on the boat. The people you posted were not members of his CREW. His CREW are the people who served under him in battle.
Here are 2 definitions from the dictionary..
All personnel operating or serving aboard a ship. .. or
All of a ship's personnel except the officers.
Spin that.
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The guy won a Silver Star. That's a very high ranking decoration. End of discussion.
Now, want to talk about whether or not being a mighty Lt. (jg) for ~120 days in a combat zone makes you into an amazingly able world leader?
I guess it does just about as much as being a 1 Lt in a fighter Guard unit for a while does.
;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
A CREWMATE is a person who is in the CREW. The CREW are the other people on the boat. The people you posted were not members of his CREW. His CREW are the people who served under him in battle.
Here are 2 definitions from the dictionary..
All personnel operating or serving aboard a ship. .. or
All of a ship's personnel except the officers.
Spin that.
No spin needed.
Earlier this year, Kerry, or his staff, released a photo of 19 swift boat sailors from Kerry's swift boat squadron with the statement that swift boat veterans supported Kerry. As it now stands, 11 of those in the photo are vehement in their opposition to Kerry, 6 can't be reached, one won't comment, and well, you figure it out. Seems the photo is the reason a swift boat veteran's group was formed to vocalize their opposition to Kerry. Go figure.
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Originally posted by Toad
The guy won a Silver Star. That's a very high ranking decoration. End of discussion.
Now, want to talk about whether or not being a mighty Lt. (jg) for ~120 days in a combat zone makes you into an amazingly able world leader?
I guess it does just about as much as being a 1 Lt in a fighter Guard unit for a while does.
;)
The guy PUT HIMSELF IN for a Silver Star. His commander questioned the veracity of the whole thing, and the merit of Kerry as a commander of his boat, not to mention his decisions and performance in the action. He decided to just let it slide. He PUT HIMSELF IN for three Purple Hearts.
I have a great deal of respect for the decorations. Kerry himself, however, is another story entirely.
I would be a lot more impressed with Kerry had someone else put him in for the awards, and his commanders not questioned his performance. Never mind the fact that at least two of his combat wounds required nothing more than a pair of tweezers and a band aid.
I'd also be a lot more impressed had he done his full tour in support of his crew and the rest of the guys who were there, as opposed to taking the three Purple Hearts and asking for an early out. Of all the veterans I know, NONE took their awards to a commander and put in to leave early. One of them did get sent home early, in his SECOND tour. But since he lost a leg, he didn't have much choice. The guy who was a medic and went back TWICE, and served ALL of his in country time, HE impresses the Hell out of me.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The guy PUT HIMSELF IN for a Silver Star. His commander questioned the veracity of the whole thing, and the merit of Kerry as a commander of his boat, not to mention his decisions and performance in the action. He decided to just let it slide. He PUT HIMSELF IN for three Purple Hearts.
uh ?
it work this way in the american army , you ask for medal ?
Either I've translation trouble or there is something strange.
Usually it's the commander who request medal for his troops, not the reverse.
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I understand all that stuff.
However, his SS did get approved and they do research those awards.
Putting himself in? Cheesy, yep. Sorta like the (jg) saluting and reporting for duty last night.
Commanders don't have the final say on those awards. It might say something that while the Commander questioned it, it was still approved.
I'm willing to overlook the self-promotion and accord the decoration the respect that it is due.
Did you see the part on the Swift vets sight where it said Kerry didn't know about the three hearts rule? That his Commander told him about it to get him out of the unit? ;)
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The crew of Kerry's swift boat have generally been supportive of him. They fought together and protected each other...what did you expect them to do?
The opposition coming from members of his swift boat squadron is a different matter all together. If I'm interpreting all the statements correctly, they are ticked off by Kerry's statements that they all committed war crimes while on patrol. Veterans in other branches of the service who served in Vietnam have also taken exception to these sweeping generalizations uttered by Kerry in public.
This may come back to bite Kerry in the posterior as the campaign enters its final stages.
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Originally posted by SaburoS
Hmmm, so maybe Kerry did rescue a fellow soldier in Vietnam.
Does that make him a hero?
Outside of his political leanings, would you concider what he did heroic?
Kerry, Former Crewmates Arrive in Boston (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040728/ap_on_el_pr/cvn_kerry_7)
i asked this qurestion in another post?
besides his purple hearts what other medals/ devises does he have? excluding unit awards
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He has a Silver Star and a Bronze Star
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Originally posted by straffo
uh ?
it work this way in the american army , you ask for medal ?
Either I've translation trouble or there is something strange.
Usually it's the commander who request medal for his troops, not the reverse.
Now you see where I have a problem with this Silver Star.
Had Kerry simply filed an after action report, and his CO read it
and written Kerry up for a Silver Star on his own accord, I'd be much more impressed with it. Had the doctors or medics who attended to Kerry's injuries put him in for a Purple Heart, then I'd say he earned them. NONE of the above happened. Kerry put himself in for all of those medals. Makes him a self aggrandizing pompous idiot in my book. I know way too many guys who did heroic things and never even told anyone, and they requested they NOT be written up for any citation.
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Did you all watch the link I provided?
Swift boat Veterans for truth (http://rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/c04/c04050404_antikerry.rm)
Its an hour and 20 min C Span press conderence.
http://swiftvets.com/
"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
-- Steven Gardner
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Originally posted by SaburoS
I recall seeing Bush's Air National Guard service being played before the 2000 election as Clinton didn't have any military service at all. That comparison benefitted him at the time.
-SNIPPAGE-.
Both sides play that game. Republican and Democrat.
I agree 100%, the hipocracy from both sides of the isle is simply infuriating. But I am not criticising Kerry's service in Vietnam. I think anyone who served there deserves the title of hero, just speaking for myself. I DO take issue with Kerry's behavior and words once he got back stateside, as well as his voting record in the Senate, and the various positions his campaign is taking during the election. Those are legitimate subject for discussion in my book and are the only things I've focused on in this thread.
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Originally posted by Martlet
HA! Hatred and obsession run deep. You actually read through 4 months of posts to find ONE that I forgot to reply to.
Good Job, Watson, you've outed me again! :aok :aok :aok
LOL, it's even more than that. Look at the year of that post.
I took your "Remember, I'm always right!" post in good spirits.
No one is always right, haven't seen it yet.
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Originally posted by GScholz
http://www.snopes.com/politics/kerry/service.asp
Jesus, you didn't even read my post before you tossed that in there. My comment has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Hanoi John earned his medals. Either you can't read, or couldn't dispute what I said but felt compelled to comment anyway.
Which is it?
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Originally posted by SaburoS
LOL, it's even more than that. Look at the year of that post.
I took your "Remember, I'm always right!" post in good spirits.
No one is always right, haven't seen it yet.
Holy crap, you're right! He's been ticked about that for over a year, just waiting for a chance to have a go.
Anyway, obviously you took it the way I meant it.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Holy crap, you're right!
Cool a new sig! :D
J/K!
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suntracker wrote:
"Well warcrimes were rampant in Vietnam. The biggest being free-fire zones and calling artillery in on villages."
I disagree, the right to defend yourself in combat is hardly a war crime. Unfortunate things happen in a war zone and sometimes innocents are caught in a dangerous situation, but the fact is, its a war and people are trying to kill you and your buddies. In 31 months in country I can say I never saw the *intentional* killing of a non combatant, free fire zone or not. Not to say it didn't happen, I just don't think it was as wide spread as Sen. Kerry testified to.
Suntracker, when were you there and where did you see these war crimes?
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