Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kieren on March 12, 2000, 05:15:00 PM
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Bear in mind all I could do was watch the buffer.
Kills:
Weazel- 4
Duma- 1
MX22- 3
PC- 2
Skyraidr- 2
Bee- 2
Banex- 2
Crash177- 1
Ripsnort- 1
Visconti- 1
Darkeye- 1
Tk421- 1
Ozkansas- 1
Hitech- 1
Pyro- 1
Ygsmilo- 2
Lampo- 2
Trell- 2
Habicht- 1
Shamus- 1
and Crabofix with the unique honor of killing himself (at least, that's what the buffer read!).
Allieds claimed 16 targets struck, one bomber returned (RAS and DarkEye).
There were 18:24 Knights/Rooks at the start.
There were 8 bombers, B26's.
Observations:
1. We still need to improve pre-registration. There are so many people who came at T-1 minute wanting to join and then want all the instructions (which were just given). This delays the start.
2. We need to post the general plan clearly on BBS and websites.
3. We need leaders picked and ready to go before the event. The walk-on leaders were good today, but it could be made easier on them.
4. Walk-ons need to cooperate and go where they are needed.
We did ok, but we wound up a bit off on numbers again.
5. We are getting closer to the proper balance, but it shouldn't be that nearly every Allied plane dies every scenario. It's fun killing buffs, but we clearly need more of a numbers advantage for Allied.
These are fun, and I strongly encourage all to participate. We are getting better as we go, but please, add suggestions here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Addendum:
Did anyone notice any anomolies today, such as invisible fighters appearing from nowhere? I heard no such complaints, so I assume everything ran smoothly?
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hey i get 2 b26 and a sist on a spit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Well i think its time to start to design scenarios whit preregistration and assign pilots to the respective gruop before start.We can set up a web page for preregistration.
I have started to design a "big" scenario whit the limited plane type we have at the moment.
U can find my work there:
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/Rules.html (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Arena/8245/Rules.html)
This is a very incomplete work, i need help.
I'm sure that we have here people whit experience on these things.
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Heya Kieren,
I got at least 1 B-26 plus an assisst. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yeah, scenario ops should be more harsh on registration. There should be a deadline for registration and no walk-ons should be accepted unless their numbers are needed. CO's & perhaps even FL's should be selected prior to the scenario - makes planning much easier.
As for the "circus" - It was a short, intense mission. Not much searching for cons - just pure fun. I am not much of a blast as CO but even worse as FL... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) It is to the honour of those awesome G2 pilots that most of the buffs went down and the damage done to the field was "average"??? Did someone check the field after the bombing - I saw about 2-3 buffs coming through to it.
I am looking forward to any player made scenario we get!!! Personally I would like to see something like "The Invasion of Italy" in AW3. An ongoing campaign with strategic victory conditions. I like the idea of TOD (1life = 1life) but a whole campaign where plane numbers are limited can be very challenging too - even if you have more than one life. Looks like Viscontis work moves somewhat in that direction. WTG Visc, really looking forward to it!!!
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~Kirin~
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/kirin.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/home.htm)
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Hey Kieren
Thanks for the report and help provided in organizing the event. As you have pointed out - more organization needed before the event. I would try setting up a simple web page, something like Saw did for his scenarios. But I would definatly need help with organizing/planning the event. If anyone here wants to give me a hand, message me back at mx22@bellatlantic.net
Regards,
mx22
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Doh! Missed this thread, I posted my reply here : http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002214.html (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum1/HTML/002214.html)
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The "number imbalance" really doesn't tell the whole story.
I flew a 109F4, and I flew it like a dweeb.
The Fs were tasked with stripping the escorts, while the G2s were buff hunting. I came in with my group and picked off a spit (my wingman decided to fly right behind me and got the kill (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ). Then, like an idiot (it was bad enough turning with the first spit for the kill), I tried to engage one o' the spits closest to me, and slightly below. So, I've got a spit on me, and I lose some parts.
I go into a dive and 3 spits follow me. My wingman dives and 3 follow him.
Sure, we both die, but we were the first 109s in, and we dragged all but a handful of spits away from the buffs. They were in no position to stop the G2s or even the main 109F group.
First, I was a dweeb for not employing proper tactics in such a situation, and for being a complete idiot in flat turning in the middle of a spitwad. That cost me my life. My wingman could have used some practice in formations by staying high instead of shooting over my shoulder. He might have gotten another kill that way. Anyway, that cost him his life. But the five or six spit pilots who decided to chase us well below the formation they were supposed to be protecting not only lost their lives as a result (putting themselves at a disadvantage to a formation of 109s), they also killed the bombers. In what followed, I watched from the tower as the G2s effortlessly slid in and destroyed the formation over the dropzone.
Kudos to the Allied CO for the jinking maneuver that threw off the interceptors; imho that allowed the buffs to hit the target.
I have a screenshot taken from f18 tower immediately after my death that I'll gladly share if someone can put it up for me; it clearly shows the spits out of position, below the bombers as 109s come streaking in from above.
In short, I think the results of these events will improve as the player base matures and learns something about squad and formation tactics.
I also disagree with the notion of allowing bails to replane. In a scenario like this, only one side can effectively do so, and that almost guarantees that the attackers will face an endless supply of enemies. Besides, one of the biggest problems in scenarios is that the planes that people desire to fly don't match the ones that they can fly. If you design 'em with chute=replane, the axis planes are going to be perpetually overstrength.
Just my $.02
Dinger
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Dinger-
I flew the tower again. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) I understand what you mean about the fighter tactics, just wasn't there to see them. Still, I think we probably had green pilots on both sides.
Historic losses were seldom as catastrophic as we have seen in our 3 scenarios. True, we probably never going to put up a 1,000 bomber raid, but no force can sustain 100% losses on every raid. We may just need to examine our balance a little to give the bombers some chance to make it in and out.
What I was looking at yesterday was having an equal number of escorting fighters to oppose the the LW. The 109's are faster than the Spit V's, so unless the Spits were in the right position, it would be difficult to defend anyway.
I also think we might want to try a raid without radar. There is no way to gain a tactical advantage when you can see where the attack is coming from. This is a bit ahistorical, but it might be worth a look.
The replane idea is a concession to both history and to the reality of our available numbers. With only about 40 players in this one, it was nice to allow people the chance to stay involved. I don't think it has to be that way every time though.
Hey, but what do I know? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I just dropped by to help!
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Kieren the biggest problems the spits encontered in the defense was there 15k alt cap. There was no way to chase off a 109 when he has a big e advantage.
HiTech
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Hey Dinger,
While I have to agree on your point of not protecting bombers, I should also mention that the whole mission goal was not for bombers to get to the base, but for RAF to engage and destroy LW. Bombers and attack on the airfield were just a bait - as it was in RL during RAF's "Circuses". The biggest RAF mistake during the scenario was not utilizing the chance that HT and his guys gave us - vulching the field. LW's mistake was, as you pointed out, that many 109 simply tried to mix it up with Spits. I seen 109 fliers who tried to stay above, but many simply dove down and stayed there.
As for the replanes. I think it was fair to let LW guys to replane since they bailed out close to their field. Maybe next time I'll make a time limit on how long a pilot should wait before replaning and how many times he can replane.
mx22
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Hitech-
Whoa! Was unaware of any cap on alt. MX22, were the Allies capped at 15,000?
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One more thought would have been to give the RAF up to 3 of the bases to hit that way they could have employed some diversion tactics. Mx22's makes a very good point that the object was not to destroy an airbase but to destroy the LW by forceing them to fight. I would have like to have seen 2 to 4 bombers w/ 20+ escorts. Maybe the 15k hard deck should have been 20 or 25 but I dont think that would have changed much.
Thanks Pyro for getting involved. It made it easier for the team leaders to get things organized and it bodes well for things in the future.
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Milo
"A MiG on your 6 is better than no MiG at all"
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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I realy liked the rodeo idea and had much fun ... this is how I saw the sortie (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I flew a 109franz with baneX as flightleader, weazel as bane's wingman and saw as my wingman. There was another flight (4 planes) flying 109franz with dinger if I'm correct and of course the G2 squadron.
After roll off, bane ordered the G2 group to climbout N and then turn SW. Our flight headed SW immediatly after take off. We stayed together pretty well, and communications was very good (Bane, Saw and me used RW, sorry to weazel must have been awefully quiet on textbuffer). We spotted the cons level alt (not low, they flew higher then they were supposed to be).
Bane ordered the flight in (dinger's flight went in too from different direction). Bane and weazel engaged some spits that turned for us, I continued with Saw to the main spit force at the buffs. (I didn't engage right away since I thought our main objectives was to get the spits seperated from the buffs)
Spit after spit moved away from the buffs while we kept charging for the buffs. I rolled a bit and spotted three spits over my right wing a bit lower, I saw some spits still with the buffs at 12 oc but they were engaged by dinger's force so I rolled over and settled on the second spit. He pulled up nicely in my sight (didn't see me, was trying to get on the wing of his leader), squeezed the tit and he went BOOOM. Saw reported my 6 clear and I continued for the leading spit. I saddled up with alot of Ooomph but he broke. Scanning I saw that we were relatively isolated (Saw, me and those 2 spits remaining) since the buffs were ahead being attacked by the G2's and the other spits engaged by 109's on my very long6. Saw stayed on my 6 and we both began E-fighting the 2 spits. I engaged and pinged the leading spit (not hard), Saw cleared me, Spit on Saw's 6, I cleared him (RW realy is great in this situation). This continued for some time using a mixture of high YoYo's and Immelmans against the spits turns. Then Saw thought I was in danger and forced a HO with a spit, he got pinged and had to bail. I was getting low on fuel and tried to RTB, dragging some spits on my 6 (not gaining). I got a kill message (aparently Crabo augered and since I pinged him I got the kill). When I got over 18 both weazel, saw and some others were rolling again, lots of spits approached 18 (how could they stay up that long without drops??) I extended.. then suddenly my engine ran out of fuel, I was in a difficult situation since two spits were still on me, then Saw came to the rescue, and killed one of them securing my ditch (WTG).
1) How come allied where at 18K when they had a hardtop of 15K?? (this way the franz' didn't have advantage, I believe G2 were higher)
2) I believe most spits could stay in the fight that long cause they weren't considering to RTB. They wanted to fight it out dying or ditching. I saw bout 9 spits over 18 when I only had 5 % fuel left (started with 50% + drops, dropped them when engaging) so I believe the spits couldn't have had more then 20 to 25% left. IMO this isn't realistic, more emphasis should be made on RTB.
3) Congrats on HTC team for 'rearranging' the scenario arena to scenario specifics.
4) I don't think replaning is a good idea,imo this is not historical ( a bailed LW pilot couldn't possibly fly 15 min later). Another thing against it is the fact that the defending force is much stronger this way. The best solution IMO is to make a scenario with several sorties after eachother (Half an hour/hour per sortie). I'm thinking more of the S3 settings in Brand W where each side has victory points to achieve, specific numbers of planes they can use all of this over more sorties. Just an idea.
5) One life like in the TOD's is also a good thing since this will make people more carefull instead of the virtual furball I saw yesterday. It would make spits and 109's disengage and rtb when they were low on fuel, make them not dive for the first target but using SA, to get kills with the least danger possible.
All in All I realy enjoyed this scenario, I was doubting the ability of the 109franz but fighting against the spitV it realy is the superior aircraft (when using E-fighting)it should be (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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BEE
'Nemo Impune Lacessit'
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/109bee.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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Also I would say that there should be no replaneing. Once you are out of the fight you are out.
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Milo
"A MiG on your 6 is better than no MiG at all"
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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Yep Allies were capped to 15k, so LW would get initial high advantage. that is also was a reason behind having more RAF fighters - I expected many of them die before LW wastes it's alt advantage. And it also happened to be historically right too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Kieren:
Hitech-
Whoa! Was unaware of any cap on alt. MX22, were the Allies capped at 15,000?
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JENG,
Allies were limited to 15k. I flew in Spit and I can assure you that we stayed at 15k until 109s started to pop up. After that, I started to climb, I'm sure others too. 15k was just a limit before the engagement. Also why 109s were at 18k, why not higher?
Now on to the fuel... Well we started with 100% internal with me and pyro assuming it would be enough. By the time engagement started I already was down to 25% or less and knew there would be no fuel for RTB, so I stayed there until my luck had ran out under BaneX's guns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Fuel issue is defiantly something to keep in mind when planning next event.
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S!
I had a great time flying allied for the event. I was surprised tho when the first group of 109s came in and hit the cover that most the cover engaged and stayed with em. I fired a few rounds into a 109 who dove down and then I returned back as close as I could to the bombers just in time to see the rest of the 109s slaughter them. As I looked around I noticed only a couple of spits near by as the rest were tied up by the initial group of 109s. By the time I could catch back up to the bombers only RAS was still up. I engaged the nearest 109 and was jumped by 3 more. I fought the best I could until weazel took most my plane from around me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I have whole thing filmed 1.46mb if anyone wants to see it just email me and I will see if I can post it on the squad website.
Overall it was a great time. I was a late walk-on and apologize for being there at the last second.
I am looking forward to the next one and will be there in plenty of time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
S!
Rocket
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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
_______________________
www.reddragons.de
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historically in the early "spit v escorting bombers" missions, escort used stair-step defence.
Two squadrons ( usually IX once it became avaiable ) flew at 30k+
and then another squadron everey 5k all the way down to the buffs.
Buffs usually had 4 or 5 squadrons 5K above or closer.
I wish i was there ;( ...
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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF
Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998
If nothing makes you happier then burning 109 - come and join us - we're looking for few good men
Northolt Wing Headquarters (http://www.raf303.org/northolt/)
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Dinger, I had no intention of stealing any kills! I actually lost sight of you after heading in (I interpreted your call to stay high as to climb after the first pass), picked a random spitfire heading at a 45° angle to me, latched onto him (I stress that I was actually in front of you at this point, hardly over your shoulder!) and after the shooting then began to climb again with hardly any energy loss.
I probably took this too hard, and granted I ought to have kept a closer mental lock on you (You got quite a lot of distance on me when engaging), but I don't like the suggestion that I just stuck to your 6 and tried to shoot the spit from behind you. Maybe that's how it appeared on your FE due to net lag, I don't know. I'll be happy to send you the film if you want.
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(http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/tempstruff/duma.gif)
Duma
XO The Red Dragons
http://www.reddragons.de (http://www.reddragons.de)
[This message has been edited by -duma- (edited 03-13-2000).]
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Yeah duma, you did take it too hard. And reading your AAR over there, it's clear you had a different perspective. My conclusion was from the assumption that you'd seen me engage him, and watched him evade. You "caught him sleeping", so it almost sounds like they weren't the same plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) . (I also had a newbie wingie in a "Brand W" SL earlier this eve. He did follow me and shoot over the shoulder at my target, instead of noticing the seasoned veteran closing in behind us. I rolled around behind and got the other one too, but not before losing the rookie).
My point was as Kieren put it -- there are a lot of green pilots on both sides. I flew stupid, and paid the price.
You're right about over-the-shoulder shootin' -- it's always that way. Anyway, I didn't want to suggest you "stole" my kill -- I shouldn't have turned with that spit (but his slow, climbing turn was soo tempting. muahahaha)
Other points:
Yeah, turning off in-flight radar might help. A GCI would be helpful though.
Yes, I know the point of a circus is to lure the LW up to knock 'em down. But duma has already posted some fine photos of 3 spits with him on the deck. duma was shot down before the G2s made their first pass at the buffs. I'm sorry, but if you're gonna escort bombers, you escort bombers, and get the kills as they come. You don't go running merrily after the first enemies you see, leaving the heavies to be slaughtered.
Sometimes the alt cap is necessary (although 15k seems a little ridiculous), but remember: no matter how high you may go in your spitfire, there will be a 109 above you.
Finally, allowing chutes to replane is not historical, it's a concession to gameplay, and it should be evaluated as such (does it help/hinder?).
Anyway, I did enjoy myself, and I look forward to participating in the future; my post was optimistic more than anything else: it's still a very young community, and we're green (or maybe it's just that it's been too long since I've been able to get in a 109 in a "Brand W" scenario).
Besides, look at duma's AAR over in the special events section. This things are gonna be very cool.
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Originally posted by fd ski:
historically in the early "spit v escorting bombers" missions, escort used stair-step defence.
Two squadrons ( usually IX once it became avaiable ) flew at 30k+
and then another squadron everey 5k all the way down to the buffs.
Buffs usually had 4 or 5 squadrons 5K above or closer.
I wish i was there ;( ...
fd ski,
Seems like you have more information on "circuses" then I do (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Is it possible for you to describe the operation in more detail, so I can plan future missions in more realistic way or at least learn some history (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
thanks,
mx22