Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: TheBeeg on July 31, 2004, 09:51:45 AM
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Gents and Ladies
(and don't assume there aren't any because some of the nastiest sim killers I've known wore lipstick)
This is my first post since returning to AH after a two year trip over to ww2ol. I left AH cause I couldn't stand the dweebeness of the MA and at that time the CT looked like a desert. When AH2 came out I decided to give it a try and I've been very pleasantly surprised first by a much improved flight model, game play and most specially a real "promise" of more realistic game play because I have had the pleasure of discovering the CT arena this time around. I'm presently maintaining accounts in both sims because what one lacks the other has in spades. I'm going to be expanding upon a website I ran for WW2OL to add AH2 pages and some comparisons of both sims. Anyway, what is realistic play and how can we enhance the immersive experience by utilizing it in the CT? Here are some opinions I have;
Basic Level Reality
1. Fly with a wingman and change the roles each sortee so that both get the opportunity for the glory.
2. Use the voice channel to communicate on the battle not to BS
3. Kill 'em, say a prayer and forget them. No offense but niceties to the enemy went out with WW I and in my opinion detract from realism. Take this as a general congratulations to anybody who will ever kill me in the future; attaboy!
4. K/D Ratio is the only measure of performance and when gloating about yours remember that Erich Hartmann's K/D ratio was 352/0 Anything that puts your K/D ratio in peril e.g. mud wrestling with Spits in a 109 close to the deck isn't very realistic and will get you killed most times.
Enhanced Level Reality
1. Consider the difference of flying a sim as a re-enactor as opposed to flying as a gamer. Think about what this means. Do some research on WW2 re-enactment organizations and consider what a great place the CT would be if when we flew in here we would be transported in time back to 1940-45
Nice to be back
TheBeeg
a/k/a "von Beeg" JG2 Richthofen WW2OL Axis
P.S. Whatever happened to that Tour of Duty idea which I assumed to be very much like what we have in ww2ol?
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Welcome back. CT is a lot of fun and much more realistic than MA, as it should be.
Some of the scenarios are quite unusual for mainstream gaming, including Fin-Russ, Israel-Egypt, and Honduras-Salvador. The post WWII clashes feature some of the latest WWII aircraft plus substitutions like Me-262 for post WWII aircraft not modeled in Aces High.
And ... usually no perk points required in CT.
CT will be even better as Aces High adds more early war and mid war planes and gvs. The main challenge is matching aircraft opponents when they were available in combat strength.
Enjoy!
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
Here are some opinions I have;
Enhanced Level Reality
1. Consider the difference of flying a sim as a re-enactor as opposed to flying as a gamer. Think about what this means.
Re-enacter eh? I'll tell you what I tell Civil War re-enacters, you cant have some "realism" and not all. If you are going to be a REAL[/b] Civil War re-enacter you have to not bathe, sleep outside, not wear shoes, get body lice, eat nothing but cornbread fried in lard, never see a doctor, get disentery, and do it for 6 months before you "re-enact" your battle. Otherwise when you enter "battle" its just grown men playing Army, and not truely a re-enactment of what they went through.
Similarly, of you want a true "re-enactment" of WWII pilots conditions, you should not bathe for 6 months (if your LW), never see a dentist (if your RAF), put a plastic "canopy" around you with an open pan of gasoline so you breathe vapors while you fly, sleep in a tent outside, eat only military rations, get malaria, get disentery, get tropical diseases, hold your breath to simulate hypoxia when your O2 system fails, play in a walk-in freezer when you get above 15k, sit on a parachute and a survival kit, throw sand and dirt in your eyes when you go inverted. If you dont do all that, (and more I probably forgot about) your just a "gamer" and not being realistic.
Basically, fly the way you like to so that you have fun. Dont expect others to see it the same way you do, or you will be dissapointed.
BTW, welcome back. :)
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Originally posted by TheBeeg
Gents and Ladies
(and don't assume there aren't any because some of the nastiest sim killers I've known wore lipstick)
Certainly this must be a thinly veiled jab at eskimo. Good!! I like humor!
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Welcome back!
FYI, it will be even more realistic when they fix/reduce the Radar settings (get rid of base flashing, etc).
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Originally posted by DktrEvil
Welcome back!
FYI, it will be even more realistic when they fix/reduce the Radar settings (get rid of base flashing, etc).
Yes get rid of base flashing but allow the "base under attack" warning.
Beeg welcome back. I like the way you think so I am sure all other will hate you ! :aok
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
Beeg welcome back. I like the way you think so I am sure all other will hate you ! :aok
I dont hate anyone Hawk, this is just a game. I do think its silly to expect others to modify their behaviour to suit your vision of "realistic" gameplay, and even sillier to complain about it when they inevitably dont.
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We need booze in the OC.
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LOL! But if you're being realistic about it, if you partake of the booze in the OC, your aiming reticle should randomly rotate in a figure 8 pattern around the cockpit for a set period of time!!
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Right Krusty, kinda like a permanent "pilot wound" effect. :)
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Welcome, TheBeeg.
I've enjoyed flying with you a few times over the past week or so.
I agree with you on the re-enactor vs. gamer mentality. Sure, as Grits notes, we're all just playing army in both cases, but that's not the point. The point is, it's one way to approach the sim.
I'm a re-enactor myself. I fall into the so-called 'hardcore' category that forgoes all things modern for the duration of any event. But like the original soldiers, I don't seek out discomfort but rather endure it when it's there. (For the record, I routinely sleep tentless -- sometimes in the rain-- have gone barefoot, gotten exceedingly filthy, marched miles in full gear, have never washed my uniform and have been injured. I have never gotten lice but have come home with my share of ticks.)
But I look at it simply as a role-playing atmosphere in which you approach objectives in a 'period' manner with the proper tools.
Same goes for a flight sim. If you choose to use that mindset when playing, I think there's a lot to be gained in the form of understanding situations and tactics.
None of this is to say Grits can't play his way and enjoy it immensly. Or the 'campers in funny clothes' can't re-enact the way they want to.
To each his own, I say. I try to coax 'mainstream' re-enactors into giving my way a try. TheBeeg seems to be suggesting the same. No one's being forced to do either.
I do think we see more of a historical mindset in the CT. That's one of the reasons I avoid the MA.
And Re: the "Tour of Duty" thing promised with AH2 .... still on the way. Think: "Two weeks."
Splash1
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Originally posted by Grits
I dont hate anyone Hawk, this is just a game. I do think its silly to expect others to modify their behaviour to suit your vision of "realistic" gameplay, and even sillier to complain about it when they inevitably dont.
I think it is "silly" to have a "Theme" for the CT if when the "Theme" is ignored.
Its kinda like politics, voted in for the people by the people, but once the leaders are in office, they run it the way "THEY" want to for "THEIR" benefit, not for the benefit of the "PEOPLE".
The "WAR" is too broad for the way the CT is played and for the amount of players there. It needs to be broken down into the "themes" or smaller battles. This would better fit the planes we have.
Fighter battles
Attack battles
GV battles
Bomber battles
But whats worse is you telling me ("You think its silly") I dont have a right to express my wants, likes and dislikes, even to expect people to agree. Then you express your opinion that I am "wrong". So in reality, you are no different than me. I express my opinions, silly or not, and you express yours, silly or not.
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Originally posted by Grits
Right Krusty, kinda like a permanent "pilot wound" effect. :)
On second thought ... I can simulate that offline just fine.
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I know i'm going to get flamed for this but so what it's my right to speak up if i wish too.
First of all this is not just a Flight sim it is a Battle sim (see history channel commercial or look at the front page of the web site).
Second I'm sorry but you can't have realism when most of the players in the game have years of experience in these aircraft. Plus since there is an indefinite amount of planes and even if you are killed you can just reup as soon as you get back to the tower kind of defeats the purpose of it being realistic.
I would love to see the CT be more realistic to the time period but unless there is a set amount of aircraft and time limits before reupping it just will not happen.
To some it's just a game (which it is) to others it's a way to re-enact historical battles (presonally i like to think that i'm re-enacting) that determined our history or to see if they could change that history.
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
The "WAR" is too broad for the way the CT is played and for the amount of players there. It needs to be broken down into the "themes" or smaller battles. This would better fit the planes we have.
Fighter battles
Attack battles
GV battles
Bomber battles
You make a good point there, I think you are right. It might work better in the CT to use a single mission or day, or engagement, between Axis and Allied squadrons/groups instead of a month or two long campaign. This would lead to much smaller (usually one fighter per side) plane sets which most dont like. But, in the end, you can not make folks re-enact step by step the way an historic event happened in a semi-open arena like the CT. We all know what happend at Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, and Midway, and those types of scenarios if played in the CT and not a true Scenario, will NEVER be accurate because we know not to repeat the mistakes made in the real event.
But whats worse is you telling me ("You think its silly") I dont have a right to express my wants, likes and dislikes, even to expect people to agree. Then you express your opinion that I am "wrong". So in reality, you are no different than me. I express my opinions, silly or not, and you express yours, silly or not. [/B]
I dont think your opinion or style of playing the game is silly, I would never tell you how to play, its your $15. I never said you couldnt express your opinion. I do think you getting upset is silly (like in the last Ackinawa set) just because the way others play doesnt fit what you think is appropriate or or historicly accurate.
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Originally posted by memnon
I would love to see the CT be more realistic to the time period but unless there is a set amount of aircraft and time limits before reupping it just will not happen.
I think you hit the nail on the head Mem. My impression is the re-enactment camp wants the CT to be a mini-scenario each seek with limited lives, limited planes quantities and everyone flying around avoiding getting killed. That works for dedicated scenarios, but it wont work for the CT. You think the CT has low numbers now, think about what would happen if you can only have one life per hour? I'd be a ghost town.
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So you're saying leave the CT the way it is now to support the low numbers we at least have?
BTW, in asking that question don't misinterpret it as support for what you call "the re-enactment camp"
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Originally posted by TheBug
So you're saying leave the CT the way it is now to support the low numbers we at least have?
BTW, in asking that question don't misinterpret it as support for what you call "the re-enactment camp"
Friends, people will participate in the CT when it is FUN for them to do so or if they have a specific need met as we saw last week. One guy logged on yesterday and was whining about the moron that changed the "practice room" for the BoB scenario.
We saw great numbers last week when I went to the "O" Club and other forums and promoted the CT as good practice for the up coming BoB Event. Today the two times that I logged on the place was a ghost town.
If the CT isn't fun no one will play. It will therefore die an ignominious death.
Let's try to make it FUN.
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Originally posted by storch
Let's try to make it FUN.
Define FUN and how it would differ from the MA, if it does.
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Originally posted by TheBug
Define FUN and how it would differ from the MA, if it does.
Defining "fun" would have to include everyone's idea of fun in AHII or it's a false statement. BUT ... the CT was designed to offer an historical or quasi-historical setting for Ace's High. It was created to offer an alternative to a three-sided, chesspiece, all planes on all sides atmosphere like that in the MA.
At some point there was a group of players that decided it was created to be a refuge from porking, vulching, grabbing, hoing, ganging, ack-running, smack-talking, fleet beaching/parking, cherry-picking, chute shooting or any number of pet peeves that are, ironically, pretty much an integral part of Aces High play (though smack now has a new home).
I'm not saying there aren't times that I get flat out disgusted with what other player's idea of fun is and even voice my disgust/amazement/mystification. But it's their idea of a virtual orgasm and more power to them if it gets them there. I may occasionally act stupid and do it myself. Weeeeeee!
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Originally posted by TheBug
So you're saying leave the CT the way it is now to support the low numbers we at least have?
BTW, in asking that question don't misinterpret it as support for what you call "the re-enactment camp"
No problem Bug, I'm not as entrenched in the "weed wacker" frame of mind as it might seem on the surface. I love participating in Stream's missions, and the tension of knowing that something is on the line is great fun. As soon as his mission is over however, the motivation to be "real" and stay alive at all costs is gone. To fly that way all week for no other reason than to be able to proclaim oneself as more "real" than others in an overgrown video game is rather pointless for me. If I felt like it, I could easily fly a whole week (or forever for that matter) and not die, but it would be boring. This is not real, its a game.
I am not saying leave the CT as it is, but we shouldnt go too far the other (re-enactment) direction either. I have seen on other forums on this BBS more than one person say they like the idea of the CT but they consider us (the CT regulars) "too serious". I ask the question again, how many people do you think we would have if you had to wait an hour between deaths? A half hour? Hell, even 5 min? Or maybe only 2 planes a night? It would be the death of the CT.
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So trying to cater the arena to everybodie's idea of fun would be an impossible task, and it should stick to it original intended design of " set up for historical gameplay. There is a two sided war, a limited plane set, and reduced radar. "
But allowing people to separately achieve their "orgasm" by running missions, tracking stats and posting them, or whatever pushes their realism button, would be ok.
Maybe then throwing in a couple twists to the "base mixture" to please all the "camps". One setup reduce radar down to just flashing bases, another set-up have historical planeset on a tight map to induce furballing, maybe focus on one historical action based on a single unit and the planes it used(possibly one of the current CT squads) and yes of course put the F4u in :), etc...
All this can be done as long as everyone was flexible and the original design of the CT is not altered, imo. But it doesn't answer the tough question of how to get more players into the CT. They seem to find their way into it when they need it(BoB practice for example or if the MA is down).
I have some things I'd be willing to try to answer/help this problem.
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Originally posted by Grits
I am not saying leave the CT as it is, but we shouldnt go too far the other (re-enactment) direction either.
I agree completely, limited lives would be totally out of the question. But you do agree something needs to change for the CT to grow in numbers, correct? *edit* and not necessarily within the arena or the setup itself.
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guys guys guys, the bottom line is that the CT is about the same as the HA was in WARBIRDS and the numbers that particapate are about the same. I have seen a thousand changes in settings, maps and plane sets in the past six years of playing these two flight sims. I see the same complaints as well. Nothing is going to change. HA in warbirds is gone but it was not the arena, it was the overall game that died. I know of at least five CT players that played Warbirds. We normaly max out at about 30 for squad nights and 10-15 any other night. These numbers have been steady in both Warbirds and Aces High. Most that fly are history buffs or guys that just take a liking to what the CT is compared to the MA.
What will kill the arena more than anything is the way WE yank each others chains. This is NOT good and WE ALL need to stop. Stop using the computer screen as a shield so you can poke out your chest! You wouldnt do it in real life so dont do it here. I gotta stop doing this myself.
The numbers in the CT are the same now as were when Brady was here. (Nothing aginst Brady at all) But he would post, people woudl complain. Players still played.
Brady left, I guess, and the heat is still on. Every ST Staff member that post on here gets yelled at about something. If your not happy, which most arn't in some way fasion or form, and you decide to leave the CT, someone else will take your place.
THE WORLD WILL KEEP RIGHT ON A SPINING!
The CT wont get saved with TheBug or anyone else getting elected. All that will do is make someone else unhappy.
The CT is empty most of the time untill two nights of the week. Tuesday and thursday nights. Sometimes on friday nights for the new map set. This is one reason why I have asked the CT staff members in charge to reset the maps for the squads to "re-enact" what the "Theme" of the weeks map represents. But even then, some call what I just said "silly". If it is silly, the remove the themes. Do not anounce the new maps or planes sets. Just do it.
I went back and looked at the very first post for the CT. There wasnt much information there but once within a few post therein, Pyro (I think it was) ASKED.....ASKED.......ASKED the players what they wanted. Either way, by being asked or just posting, not every one will be happy. However, keep the arena for what it is i.e. Combat, Historical, Special etc. If the allies didnt capture bases in the Theme, then disable capture. If you want captures always enable...per Brady's thinking, then remove the "themes". Personaly I like the "Themes" and is why I post so hard about it.
Lets "re-enact" or not, but if not then remove the ADVERTISEMENTS!
Sorry Grits, thats the way I feel and thats my $.02
BTW If I am correct, Pyro/Skuzzy or one of these guys created WARBIRDS. He is the one that created the Historic Arena in warbirds. I am not 100% sure but I would have to think that the Comabt Arena in Aces High was/is the same intent as the Historic Arena was in Warbirds.
As I have said 100 times, wanna furball, go ahead but its not why the CT or HA was created. They were created for the new name... "Re-Enacting" historic battles. Doesnt mean one side always has to "win".
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
The CT wont get saved with TheBug or anyone else getting elected.
Now that's silly thinking. The CT lacks energy from the CT staff area.
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Sorry didnt mean it in a bad way. As far as that goes, I say give everone a chance to do it. If the staff members dont like it, as well as CT players, vote him/her out.
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Originally posted by TheBug
I agree completely, limited lives would be totally out of the question. But you do agree something needs to change for the CT to grow in numbers, correct? *edit* and not necessarily within the arena or the setup itself.
I agree, we should try some different stuff. Most will probably be surised that I prefer the more reduced dar, visual, and tower warning settings. I loved that late war ETO set we did when we first tried turning off the fighters from triggering the base flash. Personally, I have always thought that even at D3.0 you would not be able to really I.D. a plane as small as a fighter unless it was something like a P-38 that was very distinct. I also wouldnt be against no dot dar at all, only bar dar to give you an idea of the relative numbers instead of the AWACS dar we have now.
Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
What will kill the arena more than anything is the way WE yank each others chains. This is NOT good and WE ALL need to stop.
Agreed, and I will try to stop also.
Sorry Grits, thats the way I feel and thats my $.02 [/B]
No problem with me Hawk, there is nothing wrong with dissagreeing, its not personal, at least not on my end.
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But it doesn't answer the tough question of how to get more players into the CT.
I suggested in another thread that we ask Hitech, Skuzzy, Pyro, or whoever is in charge of it could put a message about the CT up in the MA. Something Like "System Enjoy Historic battles with limited planesets In the Combat Theatre" and it could pop up every ten minutes or something like that. It could also be done in the other arena's.
I did not say that the CT HAS TO HAVE limited planeset's and lives i was merely pointing out that in order for a true re-enactment you would have to do that. This would never work in the CT because it would be the death of it.
I agree that we need to bring more people into the CT or at least try and i agree with what Hawk said However, keep the arena for what it is i.e. Combat, Historical, Special etc. If the allies didnt capture bases in the Theme, then disable capture. If you want captures always enable...per Brady's thinking, then remove the "themes". Personaly I like the "Themes" and is why I post so hard about it.
I fly the CT because in a way we are a little family however the family does need to grow and no i'm not drinking :lol
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Originally posted by Arlo
Defining "
At some point there was a group of players that decided it was created to be a refuge from porking, vulching, grabbing, hoing, ganging, ack-running, smack-talking, fleet beaching/parking, cherry-picking, chute shooting or any number of pet peeves that are, ironically, pretty much an integral part of Aces High play (though smack now has a new home).
!
whats funny is that what happen in WW2 everday RL pliots did HO they did gangbang they did pork they did smack talk they did chute shooting they did cherry picking they did grab huge alt
of course this is not WW2 this is a game o wait the CT is trying to semi RL
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I'm curious where folks got this idea that there is a "re-enactment camp" among CT fliers.
I've read (and re-read) TheBeeg's post, and all he seems to be suggesting is that we might get more out of the game if we approach it differently. The changes he suggests are more "inside the head" than inside the arena.
Not that some of the gameplay changes subsequently suggested in this thread are bad ... it's just that they're not necessary to get your head into a '40-45 frame of mind. The arena already has the tools and atmosphere for that. (ToD will be even better suited) From that point, it's up to you.
And that's the beauty of his suggestions. You can take them or leave them; fly smart (and more historically or with more 'realism') or not. You can choose to be transported in time when you click that "Combat Theater" button ... or not. You make the call.
Am I wrong?
Splash1
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Daaaaam, we've got a lot of very interesting opinions. Let me add a couple. First of all I've learned from playing sims for 6 years that you can't force anybody to accept your opinion. What I'm interested in is identifying and flying with others that somewhat agree with mine e.g. I suspect that everybody would agree that it's smarter to fly with a wingman but everybody should also recognize that flying a sim isn't real life and we lack the greatest asset a RL pilot has (peripheral vision). It's hard to to actually fly wing for another in here. Not impossible but harder to keep tabs on your flight leader's location. Once a sortie is over I want to switch roles so I can get a shot at a kill with someone obsessed with protecting "my" butt. I love scenarios and missions with a purpose and plan. I'm very suspicious of words like "fun" and "game" because I suspect that they're mostly used in these sims to justify unrealistic behaviors. I have fun but I like to have fun by fantazising that I'm a WW2 fighter pilot winning a hard earned victory after a sweaty palms dogfight. I have no illusions about keeping people out of the fray just because they got killed. Bring 'em back in but let them have to fly some distance before becoming a threat. I suspect that pin point radar and Tokyo Rose's sultry voice telling me the base is under attack kind of detract from the realism. Hell, I should be able to see that the damn base is under attack. As I said, I love the fantasy of the game and as someone called it a "mindset". I'm an old dude and believe me this is no different than playing cowboys and indians (is that politically correct?) when I was a kid. I love "themed" events here and did so when I flew in WB also. I don't like bright red icons to show me who to shoot and I totally dislike and from RL experience know that CAVU days only happen 2 days a year. Give me some haze, mist and enemies that fade in and out of view as they would in real life. There is one opinion I hold that gets me in trouble a lot. That is that this is a military simulation. How can one have a military simulation without somebody giving and someone else taking orders and I've heard the "I took orders in the army and I ain't gonna take them here" sing-song. My bottom line feeling is that it's better to have a small group of people dedicated to more realistic battles in the CT than to bring in a bunch of people who would be just as happy playing video shoot-em-ups. Well, that's how I like to play and believe me it is play as the best thing that any of these sims give us is the "illusion" of fighter combat. These airplanes aren't real and even RL pilots with a couple of hundred hours in complex aircraft would wind up dead if they attempted to fly a real WW2 fighter without an intensive check out. Enjoy the fantasy my overgrown little friends :)
TheBeeg
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Exactly!!! It's all in the head and I wish I could take my own advice consistently.
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm curious where folks got this idea that there is a "re-enactment camp" among CT fliers.
I've read (and re-read) TheBeeg's post, and all he seems to be suggesting is that we might get more out of the game if we approach it differently. The changes he suggests are more "inside the head" than inside the arena.
Not that some of the gameplay changes subsequently suggested in this thread are bad ... it's just that they're not necessary to get your head into a '40-45 frame of mind. The arena already has the tools and atmosphere for that. (ToD will be even better suited) From that point, it's up to you.
And that's the beauty of his suggestions. You can take them or leave them; fly smart (and more historically or with more 'realism') or not. You can choose to be transported in time when you click that "Combat Theater" button ... or not. You make the call.
Am I wrong?
Splash1
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Originally posted by Dennis
I'm curious where folks got this idea that there is a "re-enactment camp" among CT fliers.
OK, I said that, and it was probably not the best way to phrase it.
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To me, the CT is great because its a different group of people.
I see people that are as interested in the strategy and tactics of the war as I am. People that understand how teamwork is supposed to work. People that understand how fun is had.
The coolest thing for me was a few nights ago when we were flying Spits and 109s... 3 or 4 of us Spitfires in a fairly close formation met with about 3 or 4 109s in equally close formation.
Check 6s, saves, explosions, sweet shots by the jerries. I think I can speak for all when I say we had a lot of fun. MA is great and all that, but when I want to feel like Im in a simulator instead of a game, I head over to the CT, and thats usually alot.
:aok
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Originally posted by simshell
whats funny is that what happen in WW2 everday RL pliots did HO* they did gangbang* they did pork* they did smack talk they did chute shooting *they did cherry picking* they did grab huge alt *
of course this is not WW2 this is a game o wait the CT is trying to semi RL
Don't have a cow because CT was never intended to protect you from the basic design of the game. :D
*And yes ... they did. :aok
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Originally posted by Dennis
And that's the beauty of his suggestions. You can take them or leave them; fly smart (and more historically or with more 'realism') or not. You can choose to be transported in time when you click that "Combat Theater" button ... or not. You make the call.
I agree with this.
I suspect that making the CT more realistic will actually reduce our numbers, particularly if we further limit radar coverage. It's already difficult for newcomers to find where the fight is - reducing radar will make it more so, and (seems to me) won't add much to the realism factor.
Similarly, the MA seems to be full of people who want to emphasize the "stragegic" or "war winning" aspects of AH. I have to assume that they already think that the MA reflects this better than the CT. And, frankly, I would be disappointed to see the CT slide into a win-the-war focus. War-winning emphasizes the things I hate most: vulching, ganging, porking and running. Of course it's more realistic, but it's a lot less enjoyable.
My guess is that P6e identified the fundamental truth. Limited plane sets, axis-v.-allied setups, and early- or mid-war settings, will only ever appeal to a small subset of AH subscribers. That's us. We can, and should, work to increase CT numbers, because it often (not always) increases everyone's enjoyment, but we can't reasonably expect that this will ever be more than a boutique arena.
- oldman
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Wish I had oldman's pinmanship!
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
Wish I had oldman's pinmanship!
Oh don't worry hawk your pinmanship is probably fine.
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:rofl
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I agree i don't know how many times someone new has come into the game and asked where is the fight. Granted if they take the time to look they will find it but most of the time it's someone who is new to AH.
I suspect that making the CT more realistic will actually reduce our numbers, particularly if we further limit radar coverage. It's already difficult for newcomers to find where the fight is - reducing radar will make it more so, and (seems to me) won't add much to the realism factor.
Let me ask eveyone this if someone were to post that a mini mission was about to take place who would be interested in participating? I'm asking this because the idea of running missions in the CT has been kicked around by us in the 312th for awhile but the problem is we don't know if anyone would even want to participate. I was thinking that if anyone was interested that the mission could be announced on the country channel say twenty minutes in advance that way who ever wanted to join would have time to finish what they are doing. Then ten minutes before the mission would be announced over channel 1 so that the other side would have time to prepare. I know that there are not alot of us in the CT all the time but by doing this when some of the people from other arena's come in they might enjoy the CT more and decide to stay in here more plus it would help with adding to the realism more without changing things all that much.
Hey i'm just trying to throw out some idea's for bringing in new players and make the existing players enjoy themselves more.
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Howdy Beeger
wished I'd seen this post before running into you this morning
will try to act more like a wingy and less like a lone wolf in the future sir
glad to see you back
(http://www.pogbird.com/X45/musketeers.jpg)
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Originally posted by storch
Oh don't worry hawk your pinmanship is probably fine.
I thought you might like that :D
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Let me say that in the spirit of flying realistically in order to enjoy the game I would participate in posted missions. Why? Because I've watched a lot of WW2 movies and they all show planned missions as an integral part of winning a war one battle at a time. Remember the big courtain hiding the mission map? The call to attention when the CO walks in and finally the revelation of what the plan is and what your specific part is to bring it about. That's what it's all about in my book. On the other hand few are the movies I've seen that portray a communiting train of single guys going back and forth a-killing and a-dying without any concentration of power or any other worthwhile military principle. Wait, yes I've seen a movie like that, think it was called 9,000,000 year B.C. with Rachel Welch LOL. Count me in, in either case. :lol
TheBeeg
Originally posted by memnon
I agree i don't know how many times someone new has come into the game and asked where is the fight. Granted if they take the time to look they will find it but most of the time it's someone who is new to AH.
Let me ask eveyone this if someone were to post that a mini mission was about to take place who would be interested in participating? I'm asking this because the idea of running missions in the CT has been kicked around by us in the 312th for awhile but the problem is we don't know if anyone would even want to participate. I was thinking that if anyone was interested that the mission could be announced on the country channel say twenty minutes in advance that way who ever wanted to join would have time to finish what they are doing. Then ten minutes before the mission would be announced over channel 1 so that the other side would have time to prepare. I know that there are not alot of us in the CT all the time but by doing this when some of the people from other arena's come in they might enjoy the CT more and decide to stay in here more plus it would help with adding to the realism more without changing things all that much.
Hey i'm just trying to throw out some idea's for bringing in new players and make the existing players enjoy themselves more.
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Beej,
VMF-312 and the 325th FG use to plan and anounce that we were going to fly a mission. These mission consisted of attacking a target. The target could be a bridge, a single building, or even a railroad track of importance. These targets are not always game start targets. We do NBOT furball during these missions. We fly as ordered by the CO or Mission CO. We would attack and RTB. If the mission was NOT to fight, we would not fight.
We did this for a while untill the axis squads made continuous rude remarks. The fun was over and that was the last of it. I know there are still a few squads that fly "missions" but are not anounced.
Anyway, we might just plan something for thursday night. This might be a good time to try it again. Hopfully attitudes will cgange or it will be our last.
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Let me point out that sometimes the mission, planned ahead of time, was to fly to the enema base and furball. VF-17 and the VMF squads based in the lower Solomans in late '43 and early '44 did exactly that many times over Rabaul. Everyone that studies that part of the war knows the story of Boyington coming up with the idea of using buff frequencies and formations to trick the IJN fighters at Rabaul into engaging. The only goal was to engage and destroy enema fighters, not to bomb, not to strafe, not to intercept bombers, not to do recon. It was for all intents and purposes a big furball, exactly what happens most of the time in the CT.
I love planned missions, and I am the first one to join one of Stream's missions regardless what side I'm on because they are fun. I will never forget in the Hungary set I think late Feb, the 325th and 78th ran a NOE mission to hit a bridge with A20's. They used LA7's posing as buffs as a diversion force. Deej and I were the only ones to intercept them as everyone else was furballing. That was the single most tense and fun sortie I think I have yet flown in AH and I didnt even get a kill.
I think that furballing did happen, as a planned mission not by accident, and should not be dismissed as "unrealistic" so quickly.
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Completely depends on the mission. I don't like to sit around for an hour waiting for the alliesto get clse before upping. I hate that.
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Welcome back to AH, Beeg. It's been fun flying off and on with you last couple of days.
There are a dozen different definitions of what the CT is "supposed" to be, and people will defend their definition very heatedly. The bottom line (and this may sound oversimplified but it's not) is that "it is what it is". It is all of those things at different times, and it always changes... kind of like New England weather.
Just like war... it can be relativley quiet for weeks, then the spit hits the fan. It can be going your way, then suddenly be going very much against you.
To the people who really want a reenactment experience, remember this... the real goal in any war is to get it over as soon as possible. The methods to achieving this end are almost exactly opposite to keeping a game fun and exciting indefinitely.
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We did this for a while untill the axis squads made continuous rude remarks. The fun was over and that was the last of it. I know there are still a few squads that fly "missions" but are not anounced.
Anyway, we might just plan something for thursday night. This might be a good time to try it again. Hopfully attitudes will cgange or it will be our last.
We need to head off the bullsh*t animosity before it starts again. It does nothing but give a black eye to the CT and prevents growth. Not mention having guys who would normally get along wanting to step outside over what supposed to be fun. I should know, Ive gone round and round with guys defending why I fly the way I fly, what I think others should be doing, or why my squad is better than this one or that one. Its seems in the past anytime we had squads, Allied or Axis, running missions it was some of the best fights (in my opinion, and others) But then one off colored comment from either side on channel one from either side and its goes to hell in a habd basket. It turns the CT into chat room for text buffer warriors and does nothing but drive people out. (sometimes whole squads) I know you cant tell people how to act, and some get off on running thier mouths. All I will ask of CT regulars, is do your part and take it down a notch. We have a nice little sand box here but its been better( and worse) I think having organized ops (what ever they may be) on tues and thurs squad nights is a vital part of the CT. For those who want to, we should make the most of it. Hawk, you and your squad are as important to making this work as much as any others. I ask that you hang in there and you guys do what you can.
BTW, as far as running your mouth on the BBS and Ch 1. I know Ive been at the forefront of this many times( a helluvalot actually) I wont apologize for all of it, but most of the time it did nothing for the CT. Its part of my nature, but Im going to make an effort to keep it in check.
There are a dozen different definitions of what the CT is "supposed" to be, and people will defend their definition very heatedly. The bottom line (and this may sound oversimplified but it's not) is that "it is what it is". It is all of those things at different times, and it always changes..
The only thing the CT is supposed to be is fun. Like he said, it is what it is. Make the most of it.
Let me ask eveyone this if someone were to post that a mini mission was about to take place who would be interested in participating? I'm asking this because the idea of running missions in the CT has been kicked around by us in the 312th for awhile but the problem is we don't know if anyone would even want to participate.
I think your best bet will be to utilize the BBS to try to get a feel for how many want to participate and to let opposing squads know whats up. A mission is in the works for tuesday and most likely thursday. Hawk, get with me on the HA forum or email if you want in. Actually, Im asking you to get in on it. Let me know
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Originally posted by Grits
Let me point out that sometimes the mission, planned ahead of time, was to fly to the enema base and furball. VF-17 and the VMF squads based in the lower Solomans in late '43 and early '44 did exactly that many times over Rabaul. Everyone that studies that part of the war knows the story of Boyington coming up with the idea of using buff frequencies and formations to trick the IJN fighters at Rabaul into engaging. The only goal was to engage and destroy enema fighters, not to bomb, not to strafe, not to intercept bombers, not to do recon. It was for all intents and purposes a big furball, exactly what happens most of the time in the CT.
I love planned missions, and I am the first one to join one of Stream's missions regardless what side I'm on because they are fun. I will never forget in the Hungary set I think late Feb, the 325th and 78th ran a NOE mission to hit a bridge with A20's. They used LA7's posing as buffs as a diversion force. Deej and I were the only ones to intercept them as everyone else was furballing. That was the single most tense and fun sortie I think I have yet flown in AH and I didnt even get a kill.
I think that furballing did happen, as a planned mission not by accident, and should not be dismissed as "unrealistic" so quickly.
Thank you Grits. Well put and better explained than I did!
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I agree that the CT "Is what it is" but more importantly it "Is what WE make it". If you stop and think about it we, as customers of HTC, have a very large role in what the CT is considering we are no part of the company.
Tue-Thurs Ops. I love them, and I think we should do them more often, and more as a side and not as a squad on one side. Include everyone on your side as part of the mission if you can instead of doing it all as a squad. Also, if you are planning something, let the other side know, you dont have to give any details, just annonce here in the CT Forum "something will happen Tue/thurs at about 8-9PM from the Allied/Axis side, so be ready."
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Originally posted by Slash27
We did this for a while untill the axis squads made continuous rude remarks. The fun was over and that was the last of it. I know there are still a few squads that fly "missions" but are not anounced.
Anyway, we might just plan something for thursday night. This might be a good time to try it again. Hopfully attitudes will cgange or it will be our last.
We need to head off the bullsh*t animosity before it starts again. It does nothing but give a black eye to the CT and prevents growth. Not mention having guys who would normally get along wanting to step outside over what supposed to be fun. I should know, Ive gone round and round with guys defending why I fly the way I fly, what I think others should be doing, or why my squad is better than this one or that one. Its seems in the past anytime we had squads, Allied or Axis, running missions it was some of the best fights (in my opinion, and others) But then one off colored comment from either side on channel one from either side and its goes to hell in a habd basket. It turns the CT into chat room for text buffer warriors and does nothing but drive people out. (sometimes whole squads) I know you cant tell people how to act, and some get off on running thier mouths. All I will ask of CT regulars, is do your part and take it down a notch. We have a nice little sand box here but its been better( and worse) I think having organized ops (what ever they may be) on tues and thurs squad nights is a vital part of the CT. For those who want to, we should make the most of it. Hawk, you and your squad are as important to making this work as much as any others. I ask that you hang in there and you guys do what you can.
BTW, as far as running your mouth on the BBS and Ch 1. I know Ive been at the forefront of this many times( a helluvalot actually) I wont apologize for all of it, but most of the time it did nothing for the CT. Its part of my nature, but Im going to make an effort to keep it in check.
There are a dozen different definitions of what the CT is "supposed" to be, and people will defend their definition very heatedly. The bottom line (and this may sound oversimplified but it's not) is that "it is what it is". It is all of those things at different times, and it always changes..
The only thing the CT is supposed to be is fun. Like he said, it is what it is. Make the most of it.
Let me ask eveyone this if someone were to post that a mini mission was about to take place who would be interested in participating? I'm asking this because the idea of running missions in the CT has been kicked around by us in the 312th for awhile but the problem is we don't know if anyone would even want to participate.
I think your best bet will be to utilize the BBS to try to get a feel for how many want to participate and to let opposing squads know whats up. A mission is in the works for tuesday and most likely thursday. Hawk, get with me on the HA forum or email if you want in. Actually, Im asking you to get in on it. Let me know
I must say I got just as bad at the animosity but it realy came as a defence, not offense! Nevertheless, two wrongs dont make a right. Lets get off to a new start. :aok
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Originally posted by Grits
Also, if you are planning something, let the other side know, you dont have to give any details, just annonce here in the CT Forum "something will happen Tue/thurs at about 8-9PM from the Allied/Axis side, so be ready."
I think this is vital. We've had lots of fun on those nights when someone ran an announced mission. It gives the opposing side something to look for, and a reason to shake out a roughly organized opposition when the big screen lights up and says "This is it!" When a missions hasn't been announced, it looks (to the opposition) more like a milk-and-pork-fest. People start making fun of the mission, tempers flare and ugliness ensues. You don't have to give away the plane makeup, target, routes &c., but broad hints about those things can be the beginning of a really great evening.
- oldman
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I think this is vital. We've had lots of fun on those nights when someone ran an announced mission. It gives the opposing side something to look for, and a reason to shake out a roughly organized opposition when the big screen lights up and says "This is it!" When a missions hasn't been announced, it looks (to the opposition) more like a milk-and-pork-fest. People start making fun of the mission, tempers flare and ugliness ensues. You don't have to give away the plane makeup, target, routes &c., but broad hints about those things can be the beginning of a really great evening.
Exactly OM.
I must say I got just as bad at the animosity but it realy came as a defence, not offense! Nevertheless, two wrongs dont make a right. Lets get off to a new start.
.
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The Mini missions i was talking about would not occur on regular squad nights and it would be a spur of the moment thing so to post it here would be useless.
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Those can be tough Mem. if you dont have the right group of guys at the right time. They can be alot of fun if you can get people to join, but getting them to join can be frustrating as hell.
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I understand this but i think that after it is done a few times it will catch on and the threads will be filled with nothing but salutes and HAD A GREAT TIME LAST NIGHT. No more bad threads what so ever (Who am i kidding).
What have we got to lose no one will join oh well try again and again and so on.
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The only problem with those "pickup" missions is they, from the other side as Oldman noted earlier, look like base porking milkruns even if that is not the goal.
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Grits;
I would totally agree that a planned mission whose purpose is to draw enemy fighters up to their destruction is most most definetely within the scope of running a "planned" war. I can also relate to the fun of being on a mission even if you don't get a kill, back in my other sim (ww2ol) this was a common as hell occurrence as first of all you have no radar and have to depend on the high command to tell you where the battle is being joined. Once you're in the air, you've got to practically be on top of the enemy before you can possitively tell if they're friend or foe and sometimes you don't even see the bastage that kills you because he popped out of some overcast to find you neatly in front of him ugh.
As I write this I'm thinking what is it that I disliked about ww2ol which made me come here. I'll tell you. Those guys have the absolutely best environment for reality of all the online sims. They have an Axis and Allied high command structure, they have what is beyond a shadow of a doubt the best rendition of what the real world skies look like and argueably they have a decent flight model for their limited 1940-41 planeset (in my cases as Axis I got a 109E or after the factories pumped it out a 109F) but unfortunately the problem is that they're flying around in 1940-41 with a 2004 mindset. They just can't bring themselves to play the role of a jagdflieger and constantly run around bad mouthing the HC, doing stupid things like going low in order to get infantry kills. It may be fun to strafe a truck full of infantry but not with Spits, Hurcs and Dewos waiting to make you pay the price. My bottom line is that I became disallusioned with the 6 day a week dweebishness and only go there for squad night on fridays which are a little more structured. If I'm not going to get the GI Joe or LW Fritz reality I'm looking for then I might as well at least get to fly something a little hotter that Ze olde Emil. That's why I'm here spouting off reality :D
TheBeeg
Originally posted by Grits
Let me point out that sometimes the mission, planned ahead of time, was to fly to the enema base and furball. VF-17 and the VMF squads based in the lower Solomans in late '43 and early '44 did exactly that many times over Rabaul. Everyone that studies that part of the war knows the story of Boyington coming up with the idea of using buff frequencies and formations to trick the IJN fighters at Rabaul into engaging. The only goal was to engage and destroy enema fighters, not to bomb, not to strafe, not to intercept bombers, not to do recon. It was for all intents and purposes a big furball, exactly what happens most of the time in the CT.
I love planned missions, and I am the first one to join one of Stream's missions regardless what side I'm on because they are fun. I will never forget in the Hungary set I think late Feb, the 325th and 78th ran a NOE mission to hit a bridge with A20's. They used LA7's posing as buffs as a diversion force. Deej and I were the only ones to intercept them as everyone else was furballing. That was the single most tense and fun sortie I think I have yet flown in AH and I didnt even get a kill.
I think that furballing did happen, as a planned mission not by accident, and should not be dismissed as "unrealistic" so quickly.
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:lol
Having been Axis for the last two years in WW2OL I might tend to agree that we Teutonic Knights are a bit on the arrogant and rude side :lol
However, here's a thought. Why do we keep channel 1 open? Why not totally ignore the enemy? Let me tell you that this and Fighter Ace (The King of the Dweebish Flight Sims) is the only place where you can directly communicate with the enemy. Can't do it in WarBirds or World War 2 Online. To trash talk the enemy in those sims you've got to go to what we called in ww2ol the Playskool Forums. I know that we're a small group in the CT and we switch sides to balance quite a bit but if the majority agreed that while fighting we would treat each other as enemies and stop the cute salutes which we all know are nothing more than letting the sob know that you know that you killed his butt :D
Beeg
Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
Beej,
VMF-312 and the 325th FG use to plan and anounce that we were going to fly a mission. These mission consisted of attacking a target. The target could be a bridge, a single building, or even a railroad track of importance. These targets are not always game start targets. We do NBOT furball during these missions. We fly as ordered by the CO or Mission CO. We would attack and RTB. If the mission was NOT to fight, we would not fight.
We did this for a while untill the axis squads made continuous rude remarks. The fun was over and that was the last of it. I know there are still a few squads that fly "missions" but are not anounced.
Anyway, we might just plan something for thursday night. This might be a good time to try it again. Hopfully attitudes will cgange or it will be our last.
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Maybe if we had a CT staffer that actually participated in organizing these missions, things would go much smoother. I know it's possible without them, but much easier with them.
But maybe if you ran the mission in the MA you would get more interest out of the CT staff.
VoteBug!:aok
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When the mission editor first came out I was truly impressed and I still am. HT put a heck of a lot of thought into it and it's really amazing that it is used so little considering as I remember the capability it has of allowing you to save missions and re-load them. I suspect it would be a matter of someone familiar with it starting out with simple bomber escort missions. While I'm at it let me tell all of you just how lucky you are with a few things you've got which I haven't seen anywhere else e.g.
The mission editor is absolutely early caveman in ww2ol
Film editor? HA! Not even in their dreams.
WB has a rudimentary filming capability which requires a degree in rocket science to learn how to use it.
Count your blessings boys and most importantly use them
TheBeeg
Originally posted by memnon
The Mini missions i was talking about would not occur on regular squad nights and it would be a spur of the moment thing so to post it here would be useless.
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VoteBug!
Why?
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In WarBirds the Staff was called CMs. I have no idea why......anyway,
The CMs ALWAYS flew with us or were always active players much like Jester was. They would log on, fix minor problems and reset certain things when needed as well as fly missions or just play. Excellent customer relations/support in my book!
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Originally posted by Slash27
VoteBug!
Why?
Take your own advice in your signature.
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For anyone who is not familiar with the truely great experiance of winging with thebeeg, I can tell you from long experiance it is a challenge not soon forgotten. :rofl Seems to me the Ct arena already has the scenario, all thats missing is the mission.
P.S. I also more or less retired from AH to play other interests, But am proud to be back.
RafBader
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Let me see if i can explain this so that it makes sense to everyone.
No missions would be run if there isn't enough people in the CT to do the mission and defend the other country's base,strat, or whatever that was going to be attacked.
The Mini mission's that i spoke of would run like this:
1 A message would go out to all to see who would be interested in participating in the mission. If there is enough interested then step 2
2 The country that is going to run the mission announce's to it's country when the mission is posted.
3 A few minute's before the mission is to begin a message is posted to all that the mission is about to begin.
4 The fun starts.
I really don't see why this could not work.
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Originally posted by RafBader
For anyone who is not familiar with the truely great experiance of winging with thebeeg, I can tell you from long experiance it is a challenge not soon forgotten. :rofl Seems to me the Ct arena already has the scenario, all thats missing is the mission.
P.S. I also more or less retired from AH to play other interests, But am proud to be back.
RafBader
Baders,
Good to seeya and glad to have ya in the CT. Was good winging withya for a short time last night. :)
Look forward to seeing ya in the CT again <>
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Take your own advice in your signature.
Fly the CT? I do, more than you. Remember?
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
In WarBirds the Staff was called CMs. I have no idea why......anyway,
The CMs ALWAYS flew with us or were always active players much like Jester was. They would log on, fix minor problems and reset certain things when needed as well as fly missions or just play. Excellent customer relations/support in my book!
For once I agree with Hawk. I enjoyed my time in WB. I especially enjoyed the "Kill Me" nights, Historical Scenerios and the Arena settings in their HA (Historical Arena). I also enjoyed the way they employed a rolling planeset each month.
The rolling planeset allowed for all periods of the war to be rotated through the month, with early war in the beginning and late war near the end of the month.
Their were no complaints as to what plane should be enabled and which shouldn't and all that rubbish. Everyone would be able to fly the plane they wanted at some time during the month. Of course this all revolved around the Theatre of War for that month.