Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: killnu on August 01, 2004, 05:44:32 PM
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ive seen several post concerning different things with 38 DM. here is another to add to list, got HO'd by la7 and the tail fell off?!:confused: hope somebody takes a look at this thing, it is quite ridiculous. my unwanted 2 cents.
~S~
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strange i find that the 38 takes a ridiculous amount of damage to bring down.And it seems like no matter where i hit it i always manage to get an engine smoking , even when i clearly see the hit sprites on the elevator.
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Originally posted by Fauxbra
strange i find that the 38 takes a ridiculous amount of damage to bring down.And it seems like no matter where i hit it i always manage to get an engine smoking , even when i clearly see the hit sprites on the elevator.
if i could get close to one with out fps dying it would be a blessing in disguise. I hated 38's in AH1 they turned to sharp, now they stall and fall in stead of turn and burn:D
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Skull, ill turn n burn when oppoutunity presents itself. ;) and faubra, just since this last patch, it seems really hosed for me anyways. and the get ho'd and tail falls off thing is just junk to me. maybe shoulda died, sure, but tail falling off from a shot from straight HO? just dont see that one.
~S~
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Originally posted by killnu
but tail falling off from a shot from straight HO? just dont see that one.
~S~
your forgetting the fact that possible the bullets fly over the cockpit and hit the tail. MY guess is that the Tail provides a larger target area than the wings. If the aim is just the slightest inch to high you turn the wing, a huge area, into a thin area, while when the speeding bullets starts to go downthe tail provides a larger surface area to hit.
:confused:
chit wtf did i just say lol?
i have a headache now:(
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
I hated 38's in AH1 they turned to sharp, now they stall and fall in stead of turn and burn:D
What P-38 driver are you watching? The P-38 in AH2 turns a lot better than it ever did in AH1. It no longer takes any work to out turn Spitfires or N1K2s, especially in a stall fight.
ack-ack
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Dont fly the 38 much..yet
Im sure in time I will
Curious about something.
Does the 38 get oil on cockpit too?
One would imagine not but ya never know.
It does seem thenever I kill a 38 though his tail comes off.
Even if Im hitting him in the wing
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I have to agree that the "tail" separation is way out of line on the P-38. It seems to snap like a dry twig. In AH1, if I took fire from behind, I would end up, mostly, with elevator and/or rudder damage. It seems like I don't get that anymore, but rather tail separation instead.
I forget who mentioned it before in another thread, but apparently each tail boom on the P-38 has a steel spar running thru it. It would be extremely hard to separate the tail from a P-38 with a super-structure such as that, whereas in this game, it doesn't seem to take much to do it.
I am hoping that, when HTC gets the time, they will re-evaluate the DM on the P-38 and fix this.
Also, I still believe that there is still something wrong with the FM too. Got into a spin the other day at 10K, and there was absolutly no way to recover from it. This is not the only time this has happened and I find it hard to believe too.
Everytime, for me, it spins at a dizzying rate counter-clockwise. Very frustrating.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I forget who mentioned it before in another thread, but apparently each tail boom on the P-38 has a steel spar running thru it. It would be extremely hard to separate the tail from a P-38 with a super-structure such as that, whereas in this game, it doesn't seem to take much to do it.
I am hoping that, when HTC gets the time, they will re-evaluate the DM on the P-38 and fix this.
Also, I still believe that there is still something wrong with the FM too. Got into a spin the other day at 10K, and there was absolutly no way to recover from it. This is not the only time this has happened and I find it hard to believe too.
Everytime, for me, it spins at a dizzying rate counter-clockwise. Very frustrating.
I was the one who told you the P-38 has a stainless steel spar through each tail boom, just like the wings. The tail won't just pop off. They came back with one boom shot completely away. No P-38 pilot I've ever talked to said a P-38 lost its whole tail in combat unless there was a collision.
I had TEN of those stupid spins tonight. No recovery, just a continual spin, no possibility of recovery, and no response from the controls at all. It is in direct conflict with everything you read about the P-38. It is also a joke. This is one thing I'm getting VERY sick of. There's no excuse for it either.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
What P-38 driver are you watching? The P-38 in AH2 turns a lot better than it ever did in AH1. It no longer takes any work to out turn Spitfires or N1K2s, especially in a stall fight.
ack-ack
this is BS i want to see a film of this no way can a P38 outturn Spitfire v
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Ive never had a spin in a 38 in AH2 3K AGL that asemetrical power wouldnt correct. ie. countering the spin with the opposite engine only.
I was the one who told you the P-38 has a stainless steel spar through each tail boom, just like the wings. The tail won't just pop off.
I agree.
no way can a P38 outturn Spitfire v
Dont tell that to the spit5 pilot that turned about 20 consecutive stall loops with me, he might get a complex.
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Originally posted by Murdr
Ive never had a spin in a 38 in AH2 3K AGL that asemetrical power wouldnt correct. ie. countering the spin with the opposite engine only.
I agree.
Dont tell that to the spit5 pilot that turned about 20 consecutive stall loops with me, he might get a complex.
Well, the thing is, you shouldn't NEED assymetrical power to counter a spin. Engines to idle, yoke neutral, rudders opposite of spin till the spin stops (seemingly never in AH II now), yoke forward to regain speed to 150, gentle pullout. That's how it is SUPPOSED to work. But it does not. And that's a crock of crap.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Well, the thing is, you shouldn't NEED assymetrical power to counter a spin. Engines to idle, yoke neutral, rudders opposite of spin till the spin stops (seemingly never in AH II now), yoke forward to regain speed to 150, gentle pullout. That's how it is SUPPOSED to work. But it does not. And that's a crock of crap.
Oh, I agree with you in part hilts. That wingover accelerated stall that prerequisites the spin doesnt line up with descriptions from real 38 pilots both read and in conversation. Asemetrical power should be what causes a reaction like that. At least powering up the correct engine does have the effect I would expect.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Also, I still believe that there is still something wrong with the FM too. Got into a spin the other day at 10K, and there was absolutly no way to recover from it. This is not the only time this has happened and I find it hard to believe too.
Everytime, for me, it spins at a dizzying rate counter-clockwise. Very frustrating.
I've had those spins happen to me quite a few times. I don't know what causes them, at first I thought it was from going into an accelerated stall but I should have been able to recover immediately as the plane started to stall but not able to. I have been able to get out of the wicked spin by turning off my engines and then doing the standard spin recovery procedure.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
What P-38 driver are you watching? The P-38 in AH2 turns a lot better than it ever did in AH1. It no longer takes any work to out turn Spitfires or N1K2s, especially in a stall fight.
ack-ack
i have been sticking on niks and spits tails very well lately in the p38, ya it turns better, but maybe its also because spits and the sort stall allot more now.
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Originally posted by eilif
i have been sticking on niks and spits tails very well lately in the p38, ya it turns better, but maybe its also because spits and the sort stall allot more now.
Since the torque model was fixe in AH2, single engine planes should have a tougher time in stall fights. There's a trick you can do with a Zeke/Zero if you get caught in a turn fight with one, just get it into a looping stall fight and the P-38 should be able to get some pretty good shots in. Only recommended as a last ditch resort if you can't build seperation from a Zero/Zeke by putting nose down and diving away.
ack-ack
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I have managed to get the 38 into a lot of stalls,and pulled out before hitting the deck most of the time.I just kill the engines,center the stick,and work opposite rudder.I take hits from all different angles,so my input wont be of much help.I would say,that if I get hits,one of the recipients is going to be the pilot:D Geez you would think that the law of averages would let me get missed now and again.
IronDog
475th Fighter Group "Satans Angels"
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I appreciate the tips that you guys have brought forward as to how you have regained control over the spin, but as the Capt'n has stated ... those are extra-ordinary proceedures that really shouldn't have to be employed.
Also, the conditions that are causing the spins should also be considered extra-ordinary.
I currently don't have any buttons on my HOTAS that will allow me to separate my engine throttle controls nor shut both engines off ... maybe I will have to do this, but would much prefer that whatever is wrong be fixed.
The "shut the engine off" proceedure is what bothers me the most. With counter-rotating props (at the same speed), netting zero torque, would/should have the same effect as you are seeing when shutting both engines down.
I feel that something is still wrong and only hope that HT and crew can nail it down eventually.
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Slapshot are you using auto combat trim?If so you might want to try trimming it yourself.THe auto trim model doesnt work well when you push the 38 past its "normal" flight envelope. I trim the 38 myself and havnt gotten into an uncontrolable spin in AH2 yet,although I havnt been flying much.As for the damage model the tail does seem to come off kind of easy,I also notice that the majority of my pilot wounds seem to come from P-51's.Anybody else notice that?Have any idea why that would be? Burnm
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Originally posted by Burnm
Slapshot are you using auto combat trim?If so you might want to try trimming it yourself.THe auto trim model doesnt work well when you push the 38 past its "normal" flight envelope. I trim the 38 myself and havnt gotten into an uncontrolable spin in AH2 yet,although I havnt been flying much.As for the damage model the tail does seem to come off kind of easy,I also notice that the majority of my pilot wounds seem to come from P-51's.Anybody else notice that?Have any idea why that would be? Burnm
Hey Burnm ... I learned awhile ago from Silat and Delirium that using "Combat Trim" on the P-38 is not the right thing to do and have manually trimmed the beast from that point on. I know some very successful P-38 pilots still use Combat Trim, but I know it doesn't work for me.
Most spins are usually at slower speeds ... I have elevator trim all the way up, to keep the nose up and sometimes the stall is immediately introduced when I need to pop flaps in addition to the elevator trim. In AH1 I could get down to 2 notches of flaps with no problems, but it is almost as good as instant death in AH II ... at least for me.
From reading some of the stuff and links that the Capt'n has provided, the stalls/spins that we get into are impossible scenarios.
I forget which link it was, but it was described that when the P-38 reaches the stall point, the plane would not snap spin, but rather buffet and could continue the buffet far longer than the pilot could stand it. At this point, all the pilot had to basically do was push nose down and it was remedied.
I am nowhere near an authority on the P-38 and its flying characteristics, but from what I have read, I believe that there is something still wrong and hope to see it addressed when time allows.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
[BMost spins are usually at slower speeds ... I have elevator trim all the way up[/B
Hey slapshot I dont know diddly bout flyin the 38 ;) but that sounds like the elevator position that auto trim would probably have you in.I rarely trim it all the way in either direction,try a more nuetral position,it might help.Burnm
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Originally posted by Burnm
Hey slapshot I dont know diddly bout flyin the 38 ;) but that sounds like the elevator position that auto trim would probably have you in.I rarely trim it all the way in either direction,try a more nuetral position,it might help.Burnm
Same as burnm here. I keep it nuetral except under compressed conditions.
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i use combat trim all the time:D i dont see big difference, cept doing more work when using manual. oh well.
~S~
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I have not had that many problems with stalls in the 38 lately. Once I upgraded and first started playing AHII, I stalled alot. The more I played the less I stalled. The only time I stall badly is when I lose an engine in a turn, then I cut the other engine and pull out. I lose about 500-1000 ft.
I can kill the average spitV pilot easily in a TnB fight. The seafire has become pretty popular lately and its about the same. Against good spit pilots p38 cant turn nearly as good; I rely on manouvers and the fight against spitV/seafire is always a good fight with mixed results.
The tail seems to come off very easily in alot of planes lately. I would like for it to be fixed, not only for the P38, but P47 too. I would say the P38 has a glass tail, and the P47 has a plywood tail.
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Originally posted by Burnm
Hey slapshot I dont know diddly bout flyin the 38 ;) but that sounds like the elevator position that auto trim would probably have you in.I rarely trim it all the way in either direction,try a more nuetral position,it might help.Burnm
Sorry I didn't make myself more clear.
As soon as I take off, Combat trim is turned off and I manually trim from that point on. At no time during any sortie in the P-38, do I use Combat Trim.
When I am knife-fighting or in a furball, I will tend to manually trim elevator up to keep a nose up attitude depending upon the situation. In fights like that, that is where I get slow and that is when the stalls get me.
Once I have reversed the enemy, I immediately trim back to neutral or slightly above.
I appreciate the tips, but still, don't you guys believe that the stalls/spins we are seeing are somewhat unnatural for the P-38 and there is something wrong ?
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origanally posted by Slapshot: "When I am knife-fighting or in a furball, I will tend to manually trim elevator up to keep a nose up attitude depending upon the situation. In fights like that, that is where I get slow and that is when the stalls get me"
Sorry bud just trying to help,I realize you turn combat trim off but then you say you had the nose trimmed all the way up.The point im trying to make is that IF you had combat trim on in a prolonged turn fight it would move the elevator to the position your using manually.I personally never trim the nose that far and apparently neither does murdr.We use a more neutral elevator position,dont trim the nose all the way up.It might not turn quite as well but its not gonna get in that nasty stall either.I havnt experienced the nasty stall your talking about and i suspect its because your trimming the elevator too far.Just a suggestion but give it a try.But thats just my opionon.Burnm
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The stall isn't coming from nose up trim. I don't use combat trim, and I only use nose up trim to recover from a steep dive. Rarely do I ever trim up much at all.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I appreciate the tips, but still, don't you guys believe that the stalls/spins we are seeing are somewhat unnatural for the P-38 and there is something wrong ?
It seems like the only way to answer this would be to get someone who's had extensive flight experience in the 38 to try the Aces High version and give their input. Maybe someone could contact that lucky guy Steve Hinton that gets to fly all the warbirds for Planes of Fame in CA, and see if he would evaluate it ofr us...?
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Ahhh ... now I understand where your coming from Burnm ... sorry for being so dense.
Hmmmmm ... I am seeing a trend here ... Tonight I will try to not to use so much elevator trim up. That might be causing the spins, but I still think that the spins are NOT supposed to happen in the first place.
Thanks for the tips guys ... even thought one of ya ... dont know diddly bout flyin the 38 ... ;)
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Originally posted by debuman
It seems like the only way to answer this would be to get someone who's had extensive flight experience in the 38 to try the Aces High version and give their input. Maybe someone could contact that lucky guy Steve Hinton that gets to fly all the warbirds for Planes of Fame in CA, and see if he would evaluate it ofr us...?
Well .. I have always takin' the Capt'n for his word, and it seems as though he has very good access to many P-38 pilots/aces and from what he has said, those guys accounts don't agree with what we are seeing.
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Originally posted by debuman
It seems like the only way to answer this would be to get someone who's had extensive flight experience in the 38 to try the Aces High version and give their input. Maybe someone could contact that lucky guy Steve Hinton that gets to fly all the warbirds for Planes of Fame in CA, and see if he would evaluate it ofr us...?
Actually, that has already been done. Widewing has already had a veteran P-38 pilot try the P-38 in Aces High (it was AH I). If you can get him to post about it again, I remember him saying the P-38 pilot found a few things lacking in the performance.
As far as having Steve Hinton do it, while he is indeed an excellent pilot, possibly the most respected war bird pilot around, I don't know that he has actually pushed a P-38 all that hard. I only spoke with him briefly last year, at Middlesboro KY. Most of what he said about flying hard was not related to the P-38. I've seen what he can do with a plane, it is nothing short of both spectacular and impressive, not to mention he's a great guy.
The thing is, with P-38's being among the rarest of all war birds, I doubt anyone would let someone beat on one like you would in combat. The insurance policy on Glacier Girl in fact specifies that no one except Hinton fly the plane, and that it be flown within certain limits.
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guys, the real 38 pilots were instructed to ALLOW the 38 to do 2 to 3 spins and only THEN try to break out of it via use of rudder/elevator/aleiron.
Reason being, the 38 if 'pushed' to recover from a spin on the first 1 or 2 spins would very frequently enter an even more violent spin in the opposite direction.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
even thought one of ya ... dont know diddly bout flyin the 38 ... ;)
Hey! I resemble that remark!
ack-ack
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He was talking about me damn it!
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Will the real Burnm please stand up ... ;)
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Hey! I resemble that remark!
ack-ack
I am an experten in the 38. well except i need to know how to turn off "auto take off" and the trim thingys
and whats that weird thing that sticks off the tail?
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Burnm Wrote :
Sorry bud just trying to help,I realize you turn combat trim off but then you say you had the nose trimmed all the way up.The point im trying to make is that IF you had combat trim on in a prolonged turn fight it would move the elevator to the position your using manually.I personally never trim the nose that far and apparently neither does murdr.We use a more neutral elevator position,dont trim the nose all the way up.It might not turn quite as well but its not gonna get in that nasty stall either.
Works just fine this way for me Also
Crims
479th Raiders
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The weird thing that hangs off the horizontal stabilizer,is a counter weight X2Lee.Leave the auto pilot on,as P38's are very easy to take off in anyways;)
IronDog
475th Fighter Group "Satans Angels"
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i have been playing around with triming all the way up as i merge and then putting it in a more neutral position, if i have plenty of e to trade for angle (only tried this when fighting other p38's). Anyone else do this? l. (this is for the looping stall fight)
Blixen and a few others use the dive flaps on the merge too, havent got that to work for me.
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Two months ago I talked to a real 38 pilot (as long as my 8yo son would let me lol) I really grilled him on the stall characteristics under different situations. What he told me is pretty much exactly what Lockheeds Hanger Time described.
The AH2 FM is alot closer to everything Ive learned about the 38 than AH1 was. I agree with others here that it still reacts under some conditions unrealisticly. Im just still appriciative of the recent improvements, and reluctant to whine too quick or too loudly about imperfections.
bah, was gonna address tirmming, but gotta pick-up kids =(
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KoMbat TriMM wurks four MEee. ;)
~S~
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Originally posted by IronDog
The weird thing that hangs off the horizontal stabilizer,is a counter weight X2Lee.Leave the auto pilot on,as P38's are very easy to take off in anyways;)
IronDog
475th Fighter Group "Satans Angels"
I been try in to loose some weight. Ifn I fly slow and really straight in front of ya, think you can pick that nasty lil bugger off wid out hurting my ruddars?
I like donuts still.:D
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Ummm tommy just which nasty lil bugger you talking bout??? You say it hangs down between your rudders?
:eek:
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Originally posted by killnu
KoMbat TriMM wurks four MEee. ;)
~S~
soory dood combatt trim aint l33t
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The objects that stick out top and bottom in the direct center of the tail... Lead weights that the army wanted Johnson to try out while everyone was figuratively speaking "trying to crack the compression nut." Johnson was critical of those weights, not sure why they remained in the design after the mechanics of compression was worked out.
Was standing under the tail of a p38 chatting with FF1, and realized I absentmindedly had my hand on the bottom lead weight. I was like 'oh cool, thats what that thing is like in real life'
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Originally posted by Murdr
The objects that stick out top and bottom in the direct center of the tail... Lead weights that the army wanted Johnson to try out while everyone was figuratively speaking "trying to crack the compression nut." Johnson was critical of those weights, not sure why they remained in the design after the mechanics of compression was worked out.
Was standing under the tail of a p38 chatting with FF1, and realized I absentmindedly had my hand on the bottom lead weight. I was like 'oh cool, thats what that thing is like in real life'
dID YALL HAVE A kRISPY kREME DONUT SHOP NEAR THE PORT?
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X2lee, nvr said it was l33t, just that it works for me. ;) i dont think that manual crap is all that myself, but that is just me.
~S~
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combat trim tries to adjust elevators to the effect of; if you let go of the stick, it will neither nose up or nose down. The faster you go, the more combat trim will lower the elevator tabs.
In the 38 this creates a problem when entering compression. You want to pull up, and combat trim is working aginst you by trimming elevators down. Also in real life as in AH, compression recovery could be achieved by trimming the elevators up, and eventually the trim catches enough air to change AoA enough for the wings to gain positive pressure underneath.
Something to keep in mind about elevator trim is that its effect on the wings AoA is cumulative with actual elevator operation. I will pick an abitray number of degree to explain my point. Lets say your plane will lose controled flight if your wings are pitched up 18degrees in relation to its direction of travel. It does not matter whether you are causing that pitch with elevators, trim, or a combination of the two. That threshhold of 18deg is still the same. In other words you can turn just as tight with neutral trim and max elevator angle, as you can with max trim and minimal elevator angle. The lift or stall happens at the wing, the elevator is just a tool to change the AoA of the wing.
Now add combat trim to the equation. The harder you turn, the more air you displace, the more drag produced, you lose speed. Now say you pull a tight turn at the edge of controled flight, and hold your elevators at a constant angle. The turn will slow you down, which causes the combat trim to tab up. So even though you kept a constant elevator angle with the stick, combat trim has in effect added more angle. If you were riding the edge it may have just pushed you over the edge.
The same applies to vertical stall maneuvers. You zoom to stall speed, and combat trim is trimming way up to adjust to your speed. After the stall over, combat trim is applying so much angle, that there is very little you can do with the stick. If you had manual trim neutral in that situation, you have more lattitude to apply elevator input at an earlier time.
Dont get me wrong, I have nothing aginst combat trim. In the 38, it is something I toggle on and off quickly to retrim my plane neutral relative to speed. In BnZ situations in any plane I may keep it on to give myself a stable shooting platform. Because of the reasons outlined above it is something I use on the basis of the situation, and not full time.
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Originally posted by Muddie
Ummm tommy just which nasty lil bugger you talking bout??? You say it hangs down between your rudders?
:eek:
yall got donuts over there?:cool:
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Originally posted by eilif
i have been playing around with triming all the way up as i merge and then putting it in a more neutral position, if i have plenty of e to trade for angle (only tried this when fighting other p38's). Anyone else do this? l. (this is for the looping stall fight)
Blixen and a few others use the dive flaps on the merge too, havent got that to work for me.
I pretty much keep the elevators trimmed to neutral at all times unless I'm in a vertical maneuver and trying to keep the nose up as long as possible.
The dive flaps on the merge depend on what speed you are going. Remember that the initial purpose of the dive flaps was to provide a positive lift to aid the P-38 in recovering from high speed dives. In real life the P-38 pilots did use the dive flaps in high speed turning situations, kind of like an extra high speed combat flap. But they could only use it for a few seconds because the nose up lift it provided would quickly drain the energy way. In AH, the dive flaps can be used in a similiar fashion to help turning, usually at speeds above 300mph but can also be used at speeds as slow as 250mph. I have not seen any real noticable effects from the dive flaps below 250mph. At that speed and slower, you're just better off using the normal flaps.
ack-ack
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Krispy Kremes even. Be careful near any of the KK donut shops if the 'Hot Donuts Now' sign is lit up. People turning every whichaway. :aok
Originally posted by X2Lee
yall got donuts over there?:cool: