Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zazen13 on August 02, 2004, 04:47:58 PM
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Well, it finally came! After alot of anticipation, waiting and beta-testing we were finally blessed with HTC's answer to the call for the next installment of its massively-multiplayer WWII Air Combat Simulator, Aces High II. The first full camp was an exciting one with numerous resets and alot of NDIsles. I have done some number crunching for everyone's amusement. Here it is...
KILLS & DEATHS by Country:
Rooks:
Kills:189,355
Deaths:155,464
K/D:1.22:1 Kills per Death
Bishops:
Kills:148,280
Deaths:176,407
K/D:0.84:1 Kills per Death
Knights:
Kills:155,119
Deaths:160,883
K/D:0.96:1 Kills per Death
For comparisons sake here are the cumulative 2003 Kills per Death ratios for each country. From this we can conclude if there is any statistically significant impact on any country as a result of changing from AH I to AH II:
Rooks: 1.16:1 Kills per Death
Knights:1:1 Kills per Death
Bishops:0.87:1 Kills per Death
TOP FIGHTER PILOTS by Country:
Top 10 Fighter Pilots:
Rooks:5
Knights:4
Bishops:1
Top 25 Fighter Pilots:
Rooks:15
Knights:7
Bishops:3
Top 50 Fighter Pilots:
Rooks:30
Knights:12
Bishops:8
Top 75 Fighter Pilots:
Rooks:46
Knights:18
Bishops:11
Top 99 Fighter Pilots:
Rooks:59
Knights:22
Bishops:18
Conclusion: I can't help but notice the mathematical relationship between the number of upper echelon fighter pilots each country possesses and the Kills per Deaths totals for their respective countries.
Some are of the opinion each country, by some esoteric magic of random distribution, has an exactly equal number of skillfull and talented pilots. They contend that by some miracle of happenstance human nature and freedom of choice, that would normally bring the like-minded together, doesn't maifest itself in Aces High. They contend this even in the face of obvious statistical proof otherwise. From an objectively scientific point of view, this is obviously not the case.
COUNTRY vs. COUNTRY MATCH-UPS:
Rooks vs. Bishops:
Rook Kills of Bishops:99,069
Rook K/D vs. Bishops:1.28:1 Kills per Death
Bishop Kills of Rooks:77,672
Bishop K/D vs. Rooks:0.78:1 Kills per Death
Knights vs. Bishops:
Knight Kills of Bishops:77,325
Knight K/D vs. Bishops:1.10:1 Kill per Death
Bishop Kills of Knights:70,595
Bishop K/D vs. Knights:0.91:1 Kills per Death
Rooks vs. Knights:
Rook Kills of Knights:90,285
Rook K/D vs. Knights: 1.16:1 Kills per Death
Knight Kills vs. Rooks:77,791
Knight K/D vs. Rooks:0.86:1 Kills per Death
Conclusion: As you can plainly see both Rooks and Knights have a much higher than average success rate against Bishops. Converesely, Bishops and Knights have a much lower success rate than average against Rooks.
Enjoy! :aok
Zazen
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Awesome data... which would be a bit more useful if it factored in the number of pilots actually flying for a given country... though I'm not sure how'd you'd do this.
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Originally posted by Paxil
Awesome data... which would be a bit more useful if it factored in the number of pilots actually flying for a given country... though I'm not sure how'd you'd do this.
That's not possible as of yet. But, more usefull would be the number of sorties flown by each country. The raw number of pilots isn't really meaningfull in and of itself.
Zazen
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:rolleyes: 200 pilots vs. 100 pilots will make the 200 look better everytime.
Rooks have numbers , will continue to have numbers , and both Bish and Knights don't.
Skew it all you want. But the side with the most will always look better.:rolleyes:
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Agree with RedTop.
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Originally posted by RedTop
:rolleyes: 200 pilots vs. 100 pilots will make the 200 look better everytime.
Rooks have numbers , will continue to have numbers , and both Bish and Knights don't.
Skew it all you want. But the side with the most will always look better.:rolleyes:
The only problem with that theory is, all three countries have almost exactly the same statistics respectively for any camp you care tolook at, going back 3 years+. This includes the lengthy period when Bishops had a huge numerical advantage. Rooks still had the best K/D and Bishops the worst, by far (Knights always somewhere in between).
As easy as it is to blame these statistics on raw numbers of players, these statistics are proven consistant regardless of any numerical disparity between the countries. These numbers are derived from the quality of the 'core' players each team has and has always had.
Check this for yourselves, go back two years+ when Rooks were getting reset everynight and Bishops had a 3 to 1 advanatge in numbers 24/7.
Zazen
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and to think someone actually took that much time to get the data......coulda been killin ppl in the game but nooo..........and i ranked 3.....but i switched countries all the time.
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Originally posted by xBarrelx
and to think someone actually took that much time to get the data......coulda been killin ppl in the game but nooo..........and i ranked 3.....but i switched countries all the time.
The ranks used in here were only fighter ranks. In the case where someone switched sides I used the side they garnered the majority of their kills on. For example, in your particular case, you were ranked 68th in fighter and scored the majority of your kills as a Bishop.
Zazen
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Seems like a lot of effort put forth to make a determination that is most likely inaccurate and pointless.
What's the point?
Is it that Bishops are lowlife scum suckers who can't fly, and Rooks are godlike beings who sprout wings of varying styles to smite the lower life forms?
Or is it that Knights are in between the "good and the bad" and are therefor the "ugly"?
ROFL!
I can manipulate any set of numbers to reflect what I want to be perceived.
It's just a game for Chr**t sake.
Numbers have always been cyclical here and will continue to be.
Fly whatever country you want. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever.
RTR
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Conclusion: As you can plainly see both Rooks and Knights have a much higher than average success rate against Bishops. Converesely, Bishops and Knights have a much lower success rate than average against Rooks.
Zazen
I was considering posting in Bishops defense, but I checked my own stats...
3.22:1 aginst Rooks
6.16:1 aginst Bishops
.... never mind.
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Originally posted by RTR
Seems like a lot of effort put forth to make a determination that is most likely inaccurate and pointless.
What's the point?
Is it that Bishops are lowlife scum suckers who can't fly, and Rooks are godlike beings who sprout wings of varying styles to smite the lower life forms?
Or is it that Knights are in between the "good and the bad" and are therefor the "ugly"?
ROFL!
I can manipulate any set of numbers to reflect what I want to be perceived.
It's just a game for Chr**t sake.
Numbers have always been cyclical here and will continue to be.
Fly whatever country you want. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever.
RTR
These numbers aren't 'slanted' in any way, they are cut and pasted right from the HTC website. They speak the unbiased, painfull truth. Draw your own conclusions, but this is the raw data plain and simple. This data is entirely consistant with data collected every camp from the beginning of Aces High.
The reason why I keep bringing this up is precisely that this data collected every camp since AH began is SO consistant regardless of fluctuations in numbers between the countries. Rooks were just as impressive fighting against the odds as with them. Bishops were just as dismal with the odds as against them. Knights are always somewhere in the middle, also regardless of MA numbers.
People have taken to crying about numerical disparity to assuage their MA woes. My contention as supported by this huge volume of data is their plight has nothing whatever to do with the numbers. It's the 'make-up', skill and talent wise, of the core player base that constitute the countries. This hasn't changed in any statistically significant way since AH began, so is unlikely to ever change.
Zazen
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ROFLMAO!
I offer my most humble apologies.
Please understand I am only a lowly Bishop, and most of this is obviously way over my head.
Of course you are right.
Your most obedient servant.
I feel like I'm having trouble getting to Solla-Salloo, and I'm one of those sneetches who doesn't have a star upon thar's.
RTR
:rofl
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The numbers say Rook are the most Talented, followed by Knights, then Bish Last, but how can you base talent on numbers, not every flyer strives to be in the top 10, top 50, top 100, top 200, top 300, top 400 and so on, but that doesn't mean they aren't as talented or even better. They just don't care about score or any part of it.......so just because Rooks have most fighter ranks in top 100, followed by knights, then bish doesn't mean that the bish are less skilled flyers or knight for that matter, it just means some of them do not fly to pound their chest thump, thump, thump to play almighty I am kong of the Arena knock me off my skyscraper if you dare...........
As for more kills, that is a numbers issue as well, and it has been shown night after night and at other times, that when a country has overwhelmingly more players than another country, that country with less is gona end up being slaughtered, when 6 guys are fighting every 1 opponent ( exaggeration here)
I think you a cool cat, Zazen but you base every thing in game and on bbs strictly on numbers............I find that a little outrageous LOL......
still though, even if you added up all the better talented pilots up in every country you would probably find more in Rook land, just for the fact that Rook outnumbers everyone else by mass volume........
my 2 cents :D
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
As for more kills, that is a numbers issue as well, and it has been shown night after night and at other times, that when a country has overwhelmingly more players than another country, that country with less is gona end up being slaughtered, when 6 guys are fighting every 1 opponent ( exaggeration here)
Then how do you explain Rooks having similiar kill numbers as they do today two years+ ago when they were vastly outnumbered. Similiarly, how do you explain Bishops having just as terrible kill numbers 2 years ago+ when they outnumbered Rooks and Knights combined, 24/7? Clearly, superior numbers does not = superior Kill Totals or K/D. If Kill Totals and K/D are independant of numbers, which is a PROVEN FACT (look it up yourself right here on this website), then the Kill Totals and K/D have to be a simple factor of the skill and talent of the pilots themselves, pilot quality.
Zazen
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You really don’t have the data required to come to any conclusion about pilot ability based on the icon they are flying with. HTC does not produce the data that shows which country outnumbers the other as a function of time. We’re talking country ratio as a function of time.
Even if it did there are no statistics to show how game play transpired during time. How many kills are by vulch? How many kills were staged?
Was one country fighting a pitched battle on two fronts and for how long? What is the squad make up of each country as opposed to nonaligned players? How often did squads from one country play together during the course of time? Was there more organized squad play on one side than another? What was the squads strategy of game play during the course of time?
What are the statistics about players and squads changing countries? Does their ability change or just a kill to death ratio? If it’s their ability that changes how does the given icon affect game play? Does a given squad or players ability change according to the icon they are flying under?
You’re better off trying to come to some sort of conclusion regarding ability by looking at the psychological reason for choosing one chess piece over another. You would be just as incorrect as you are now but it could be entertaining and would not make you look nearly as foolish as you do now. Your type of thinking is similar to that used by dictators and racists from past history to try to prove their genetic superiority. In that light I hope that your postings are actually in jest and that you are not nearly as pompous as you sound. If you are serious then you’re truly a sad individual.
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Ratnick you beat me to the crux of this whole thing.
They are just numbers, and can't reflect talent. there are too many variables.
This whole thread is pointless in fact.
It is without a point.
It is not pointy at all.
It is rounded at the end.
The ends of the thread converge rather bluntly.
The ends of the thread do not meet at a sharp angle.
It is in fact, A NON POINTY THREAD!
We now return you to your regularly scheduled BBS bashing.
RTR
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Numbers mean squat.
Numbers mean nothing.
Numbers are just things to manipulate to make your argument valid.
It is...exactly as Rat and RTR said...Not Pointy. To many variables.
BUTTTTTTTTTT........Zazen.... .I know you will NOT want to be told that there is the slightest chance that they may possibly have a point. SOOOOOOOOO........I wont say it.
I'll just simply know that.....
The ROOKS (who I flew with for a month) are in your mind the baddest of the bad....They are the Best of the Best.
THEY ARE TRULY ...AcesHigh Gods.
The Knights and Bishes are mere pieces of slag to be spat upon by the all supieror pilot skills of the all mighty rooks.
As a matter a fact....Why in the world do we Knights and Bishes even bother to up a plane. WHy do we give any effort what so ever to trying to match the AWSOME display of flying prowess of those mighty ROOK aces. Those Aces that are in the middle of those other 5 or 6 rooks. The ones that rack up those simply amazing numbers of kills by flying at 25k like the mighty Eagle. Searching below for its un-suspecting prey that is trying to get a kill.
It's because we are inferior to you ROOK aces. We knights and Bishes are polywogs. We are nothing.
I am truly sorry...and may I speak for most of the knights here when I say...TRULY SORRY that we infest your AREA and Arena with our sorry choice of planes..Dweebiness..and pure lack of skill.:rofl
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Okay..here is the truth ...finally.
Had to go back a few hundred threads to find it, but it explains everything.
It's cut'n paste rather than drag up the whole thread.
Why I am a Bishop :)
Wish I could say that I am a bishop by choice, but that wouldn't really be true. The true reason requires a bit of a lecture in RTR's theories of evolution
Now back in the old days (say roughly 40,000 years ago) there were 2 fairly dominant species of hominid. The Neanderthal being the more unfortunate of the two. Now Neanderthals were very close to Homo Sapiens Sapiens genetically, and it is entirely possible that there was some cross breeding going on there. (although many anthropologists will argue against, many will argue for). However, eventually Neanderthal was to die out and all remnants of his/her genetics have long since dissappeared.
Which brings me to the real point here.
We have in our midst a very close relative. The Chimpanzee (only one chromosome difference folks). Now, it only makes sense that somewhere along the line during a drunken spree, something terrible happened.
So...I am not pointing fingers here, but these phrases "altitude monkey", "ACK monkey" etc must have had an origin.
Now, with all this "evidence", and the fact that I have never met a Bishop who had scabs on his/her knuckles, or whose toes curled inwards, or who complained of a bad case of "monkey butt" after a night of debauchery, I must conclude through "sound reasoning" that Knits and Rooks have a bit of Chimp in'em.
So you see folks, its not a matter of what I want to be, its a matter of being what I have to be, (what I can only be), because of genetics.
Somedays I really wish I could be a Knit or Rook ( I really do like bananas), but alas, it was just never meant to be.
Cheers
RTR
"sometimes, to get the desired result, you have to poke'em with a stick."
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This whole side bashing is frankly getting old. I've been on both Bish and Rooks so far in my little over a year of playing both seem the same to an extent.
For starters the whole numbers issue is a complete joke. Even when I was a Bish we would fly in hordes. Didn't matter if it was a horde flying to a Rook base or horde flying to Knight base. We still flew in mass numbers overwhelming the base. It also depended on what day or time of day it was as to whether or not we had the numbers. Early in the evening the Bish always had equal or higher numbers than both sides. Sometimes we'd have atleast twice as many numbers against a particular country. During late night hours it would go even or in favor of the Bish again. Biggest thing I've noticed is that Bish had a tendency to waste resources when they really didn't have any to waste. Opposed to doing alot of harrassment tactics in alot areas and hammer specific targets in another like the other two sides seem to do.
The Rooks do have numbers when it comes to the weekend. What rock they are crawling out from under I have no clue but they do come and come out in force. I honestly wouldn't know about the flying in massive packs on Rooks cause I have yet to have to do that. I've got my squad mates to fly with and they are all I need to have around. One major thing I've noticed is the squads on the Rook side stick together all the time and they constantly fly wingmen tactics. The squads will fly in packs starting at around 2 to 12 pilots. If that is considered flying with a horde then I'm guilty.
With my squad though we don't go looking for the massive horde going to a base. We actually do the opposite. We go to an area where there is large red dar bar and very little green around. Means less fighting for food that way. Which in the end does mean we will be outnumbered and very possibly overwhelmed by enemy cons.
I have flown with alot of good pilots on both Bish and Rooks and I'd have to say it's not necessarily that they have less talent but they don't always use that talent to their advantage. I've also fought against many good pilots on Knights so I wouldn't disregard them as being mediocre by any means. I can't say that one side or the other has better pilots just that IMO some sides don't use their experience and talents to their advantage.
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Originally posted by RedTop
It's because we are inferior to you ROOK aces. We knights and Bishes are polywogs. We are nothing.
dangit, I ain't no polywog, I am a certified BLue Nose and a certified Shellback!
phewfffff polywog........phewfffff
:D
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its a bit hard to kill a rook when they are La7's or niks at 30k.............
yay skill, id rather fight against knights anyday, at least they are fair, and still good pilots at that
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Originally posted by Overlag
its a bit hard to kill a rook when they are La7's or niks at 30k.............
yay skill, id rather fight against knights anyday, at least they are fair, and still good pilots at that
Fair?!? What does fair have to do with anything? Life isn't fair, war isn't fair, even simulated war isn't fair! If you want fair go to DA, meet in same plane against one guy at 5k and yank and bank until the pain from the carpal tunnel syndrome forces you into a wrist splint. If you want simulated warfare, fly the MA, where there is no fair, just the killers and those....re-planing.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Fair?!? What does fair have to do with anything? Life isn't fair, war isn't fair, even simulated war isn't fair! If you want fair go to DA, meet in same plane against one guy at 5k and yank and bank until the pain from the carpal tunnel syndrome forces you into a wrist splint. If you want simulated warfare, fly the MA, where there is no fair, just the killers and those....re-planing.
Zazen
:rolleyes:
anyway, if you want to go by numbers...how about mine? what squad has been top for the last 4-5tours? and what side has it come from? ;)
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Originally posted by RedTop
:rolleyes: 200 pilots vs. 100 pilots will make the 200 look better everytime.
Rooks have numbers , will continue to have numbers , and both Bish and Knights don't.
Skew it all you want. But the side with the most will always look better.:rolleyes:
AGREED WHOLEHEARTEDLY
Only you put it much more politely Then I was gonna
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Originally posted by RedTop
Numbers mean squat.
Numbers mean nothing.
Numbers are just things to manipulate to make your argument valid.
It is...exactly as Rat and RTR said...Not Pointy. To many variables.
BUTTTTTTTTTT........Zazen.... .I know you will NOT want to be told that there is the slightest chance that they may possibly have a point. SOOOOOOOOO........I wont say it.
I'll just simply know that.....
The ROOKS (who I flew with for a month) are in your mind the baddest of the bad....They are the Best of the Best.
THEY ARE TRULY ...AcesHigh Gods.
The Knights and Bishes are mere pieces of slag to be spat upon by the all supieror pilot skills of the all mighty rooks.
As a matter a fact....Why in the world do we Knights and Bishes even bother to up a plane. WHy do we give any effort what so ever to trying to match the AWSOME display of flying prowess of those mighty ROOK aces. Those Aces that are in the middle of those other 5 or 6 rooks. The ones that rack up those simply amazing numbers of kills by flying at 25k like the mighty Eagle. Searching below for its un-suspecting prey that is trying to get a kill.
It's because we are inferior to you ROOK aces. We knights and Bishes are polywogs. We are nothing.
I am truly sorry...and may I speak for most of the knights here when I say...TRULY SORRY that we infest your AREA and Arena with our sorry choice of planes..Dweebiness..and pure lack of skill.:rofl
That was a funny read. Thank-You.
Numbers are a bread crumb trail, they are like archaelogical evidence. Like archaelogical evidence, they are not the living reality, but the footprint of a life lived. These threads are not here to force my own personal conclusions on anyone. These threads are here merely to present the data and invite discussions as to the cause and effect relationships that caused these statistical trends.
Alot has been made of the numerical disparities in the MA. People are using arena numbers figures as a reason for their unhappniess and misfortune in the MA. These numbers prove beyond any reasonable person's doubt that MA numerical disparities have a ZERO NET EFFECT on the end result of gameplay in the MA. To deny this one simple fact is to admit to being an irrational being.
Zazen
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zazen im sure if all the bish and all the knights flew la7s or p51s we'd have the same "cool" rank as rooks :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Overlag
zazen im sure if all the bish and all the knights flew la7s or p51s we'd have the same "cool" rank as rooks :rolleyes:
Ummmm, try flying Rooks one day, all you Bish fly are Lgay7's, Niki's and Spits.... :rofl I had to take a deep breath after reading that to avoid choking on my tongue. :eek:
Zazen
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Originally posted by Overlag
:rolleyes:
anyway, if you want to go by numbers...how about mine? what squad has been top for the last 4-5tours? and what side has it come from? ;)
Yup, fully 1/3 of all the Bishop's whopping 18 Top 99 fighter pilots are in your squadron. Busher is a wonderfull recruiter, not real picky though . ;)
Zazen
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It can be claimed till the end of the earth that the Rooks somehow have better pilots.
I personally through my own experiance just dont see it.
Timewise I fight Rooks and bish about evenly
And I dont see any rook pilots that are any better then any bish pilots
Both sides seem to have some pretty good sticks and both sides seem to have pilots that well...Aint so good.
Yet I've killed more rooks then I have bish.
The ONLY difference I see between either is the amount of numbers that rooks tend to put up
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
It can be claimed till the end of the earth that the Rooks somehow have better pilots.
I personally through my own experiance just dont see it.
Timewise I fight Rooks and bish about evenly
And I dont see any rook pilots that are any better then any bish pilots
Both sides seem to have some pretty good sticks and both sides seem to have pilots that well...Aint so good.
Yet I've killed more rooks then I have bish.
The ONLY difference I see between either is the amount of numbers that rooks tend to put up
Actually you should check your own statistics. You may not realize it but you are in fact a great example.
Drediock's Last 5 Tours Cumulative Kill Totals:
Drediock vs. Bishops:
Drediock's Kills vs. Bishops:1,390
Bishop's Kills vs. Drediock:1,014
Drediock's K/D vs. Bishops:1.37:1 Kills per Death
Drediock vs Rooks:
Drediock's Kills vs. Rooks:1,566
Rook's Kills vs. Drediock:1,257
Drediock's K/D vs Rooks:1.25:1 Kills per Death
Conclusion: Your overall K/D is pretty low, so does not make for a glaring example, but for you the difference represents a 10% increase in your effectiveness when fighting Bishops. Interestingly, this is almost exactly the difference in country K/D between Knights and Bishops for the same period.
Thanks for helping prove my point! :aok!
Zazen
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Overlag and I'm sure if some squads padded scores at factories and such they'd be in the top numbers too. And if you think I haven't seen folks do it on Bish your crazy. That nice JU-87 and it's big bomb does wonders at factories.:rolleyes:
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Justdoing my daily statistics housekeeping thought I'd post this information.
First Day Kill Totals Camp 55:
Bishop Kills:2,426
Bishop Deaths:3,516
Bishop's K/D:0.69:1 Kills per Death
Knight Kills:3,761
Knight Deaths:3,930
Knight's K/D:0.96:1 Kills per Death
Rook Kills:4,013
Rook Deaths:2,754
Rook's K/D:1.46:1 Kills per Death
Conclusion: Even though Bishops had wonderfull numbers all night due to many squadnights they performed abysmally as one would expect, well below their mean average K/D. Knights were outnumbered pretty severely by Rooks and Bishops but maintained their mean average K/D. Rooks outperformed their mean average K/D by 10%! in spite of dealing with major Monday night Bishop offensives.
Zazen
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Someone needs to get laid - sheesh, I'm out of this one.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Actually you should check your own statistics. You may not realize it but you are in fact a great example.
Drediock's Last 5 Tours Cumulative Kill Totals:
Drediock vs. Bishops:
Drediock's Kills vs. Bishops:1,390
Bishop's Kills vs. Drediock:1,014
Drediock's K/D vs. Bishops:1.37:1 Kills per Death
Drediock vs Rooks:
Drediock's Kills vs. Rooks:1,566
Rook's Kills vs. Drediock:1,257
Drediock's K/D vs Rooks:1.25:1 Kills per Death
Conclusion: Your overall K/D is pretty low, so does not make for a glaring example, but for you the difference represents a 10% increase in your effectiveness when fighting Bishops. Interestingly, this is almost exactly the difference in country K/D between Knights and Bishops for the same period.
Thanks for helping prove my point! :aok!
Zazen
Considering you havent a clue as to how or what type of missions I fly . or why you havent proven jack.
Those numbers reflect very little
But if you look at the overall number of kills I still kill more rooks then bish
My ratio means little considering that 99 times out of 100 Im flying into an area where I am outnumbered by at least 6-1 and more often then not more
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Zazen, let's assume for a minute that your information indicates exactly what you feel it does. Why post it then type your conclusions that the other teams are somehow inferior? Why "rub it in" ?
For the sake of argument in this thread, let's assume your assertion about rooks being better overall than the other teams is correct.
What makes you feel the need to do this? Look, I find stats of all kinds very interesting but it seems you want to rub nits and bish noses in it.
It is much more satisfying to be recognized by others for your accomplishment(s) than to sing your own praises.
Win graciously.
footnote: now if I could only learn to lose graciously(consistently)....I'm trying!
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dont bother, just a kid ;)
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Does this prove rooks are better or play for score? I could get into the top 10 pretty easily if i wished. I have shotdown plenty of the top 10 pilots for tour 54.
However i play for fun, which for me is diversity. I go buff hunting, escorting our own buffs, long range noe missions (not often enough tho), and defend heavily attacked bases. All of this is detrimental to my score.
I'm sure the planes i fly don't help either. My top 3 rides for tour 54 are the mossie, hurri I and the hurri 2d.:)
If getting into the top 50 is what someones plays for- good for them. It's just not my cup of tea.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
It can be claimed till the end of the earth that the Rooks somehow have better pilots.
The best pilots the Rookies had left when the Army of Muppets left. Now all the Rooks have is relying on their numbers in a horde. like Redtop said, swarm a side when you out number them close to 3-1 and you're bound to rack up some numbers.
ack-ack
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It must be true
We have been judged, weighed in the balance and found wanting.
The great arbitor of all things (the KD ratio) shows how truely pathetic we are.
We are of the gutter, fit only to mingle with the slime, the waste products of our betters and those lower creatures that inhabit such places.
It is obviously because only we
fly in hordes,
suicide bomb,
fire HO,
run to ack,
pork fuel,
fly La7's,
cherry pick,
gang bang,
vulch,
run away,
alt dweebery,
etc etc
that cod has cursed us to inhabit the dark places never to see the light, never to smell the crisp clear air of our betters or enjoy the pride of respect from our fellows.
We are but he orcs of the MA, the babling horde that must ever fail in the light of good, and honour and chivalry. To "gibble" and "cacker" when our horde snuffs out the light of an honourable foe caught in our mire.
We are but scum..............
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Overlag and I'm sure if some squads padded scores at factories and such they'd be in the top numbers too. And if you think I haven't seen folks do it on Bish your crazy. That nice JU-87 and it's big bomb does wonders at factories.:rolleyes:
factories are part of the war effort, and DO slow down resupply so they are valid targets :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Murdr
I was considering posting in Bishops defense, but I checked my own stats...
3.22:1 aginst Rooks
6.16:1 aginst Bishops
.... never mind.
I checked mine just now too...
6.1875 versus Bish
5.1429 versus Knit
Not quite the drastic disparity you had but still a difference. So I went and looked a June's tour...
3.1724 versus Bish
6.3000 versus Knit
Now I'm with you on the part :D
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K/D ratio tells us nothing of skill. At this level of measurement the only assertion we may reasonably make is that Rooks consistently achieve a higher K/D ratio than other teams. We can posit why this might be all we want, but without more precise measurements we cannot claim that "skill" or anything else causes this.
Wishing it does not make it so.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Considering you havent a clue as to how or what type of missions I fly . or why you havent proven jack.
Those numbers reflect very little
But if you look at the overall number of kills I still kill more rooks then bish
My ratio means little considering that 99 times out of 100 Im flying into an area where I am outnumbered by at least 6-1 and more often then not more
You may fly more missions against Rooks than Bishops and therefore kill more Rooks. But, Rooks kill you at a 10% greater rate than Bishops. So, how many you kill you get is just a factor of who you choose to fight, nothing more...
Zazen
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Originally posted by Steve
Zazen, let's assume for a minute that your information indicates exactly what you feel it does. Why post it then type your conclusions that the other teams are somehow inferior? Why "rub it in" ?
For the sake of argument in this thread, let's assume your assertion about rooks being better overall than the other teams is correct.
What makes you feel the need to do this? Look, I find stats of all kinds very interesting but it seems you want to rub nits and bish noses in it.
It is much more satisfying to be recognized by others for your accomplishment(s) than to sing your own praises.
Win graciously.
footnote: now if I could only learn to lose graciously(consistently)....I'm trying!
The purpose of this thread is to show the numbers whiners, numbers have nothing to do with their performance, misfortunes, disgruntlement and general dissatisfaction with how their respective teams are performing. The performance of their team is a factor of something that transcends numbers. I have stated this in three different ways throughout this thread.
Zazen
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Zazen13 - It is well known that Rooks rule. Don't confuse the lesser players with facts - lol
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zazen posted numbers you guys think he's slinging watermelon at you. Numbers are just that numbers. Maybe zazen Has opened a Can of worms here. Do I see a round robin duel coming say 10 on 10 matches based on country top 10 agianst country. And just to make it fair match only 202 or any other plane with just 303's that way no 1 ping kills. Then and only then will skill show thru.
Numbers tho zazen can never be used here as written in stone. Some have used shades accounts to beff up scores. Have seen guys land 25kills in a p40 1 sortie shooting squadmate. Seen others kill shade account bombers you chk thier score and they are only one killing account,and account has never killed anyone. Not saying that any top pilot does this just saying numbers can be abused.
Last You are so right, When I first came to game. Rooks were always out numbered, Seen nights it was 240 bishops 170 knights on 60 rooks. But rooks had better k/d and more kills. NOW THIS IS REASON ROOKS HAVE REP OF FLYING HIGHER THAN OTHERS THEY HAD TO TO SURVIVE AND OLD HABITS DIE HARD. but to those who complain you are the one looking foolish when you complain.Some nights 262's were costing bishops 968 perks (highest i've seen) and this was well before reset time. So I for 1 think overall skill goes to rooks, But I also think alot of good pilots leave to go rook because (now just 2cents here) game play and team work. ROOKS would be even better if they threw out morphy the sl*t.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
K/D ratio tells us nothing of skill. At this level of measurement the only assertion we may reasonably make is that Rooks consistenly achieve a higher K/D ratio than other teams. We can posit why this might be all we want, but without more precise measurements we cannot claim that "skill" or anything else causes this.
Wishing it does not make it so.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Maybe talent was not the best choice of words. I will go back to my earlier vernacular and use 'effectiveness". Rooks are more 'effective' than either of the other two teams, independant of MA numbers. Why they are more 'effective' regardless of numbers? I will leave this to everyone's conjecture. From my personal experience and the available data I conclude this dramaticically higher effectiveness is a result of more talent, skill and superior tactics. As for the validity of the K/D ratio as a measuring tool. It is/was a good enough tool for the Air Forces of every country of the world during wartime, so it's good enough for our virtual air forces here in simulated war.
That being said, I would love to have more a more comprehensive body of statistical data to bring into play. As I have no doubt it would lead us to similiar conclusions.
Zazen
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Originally posted by rod367th
zazen posted numbers you guys think he's slinging watermelon at you. Numbers are just that numbers. Maybe zazen Has opened a Can of worms here. Do I see a round robin duel coming say 10 on 10 matches based on country top 10 agianst country. And just to make it fair match only 202 or any other plane with just 303's that way no 1 ping kills. Then and only then will skill show thru.
Numbers tho zazen can never be used here as written in stone. Some have used shades accounts to beff up scores. Have seen guys land 25kills in a p40 1 sortie shooting squadmate. Seen others kill shade account bombers you chk thier score and they are only one killing account,and account has never killed anyone. Not saying that any top pilot does this just saying numbers can be abused.
Last You are so right, When I first came to game. Rooks were always out numbered, Seen nights it was 240 bishops 170 knights on 60 rooks. But rooks had better k/d and more kills. NOW THIS IS REASON ROOKS HAVE REP OF FLYING HIGHER THAN OTHERS THEY HAD TO TO SURVIVE AND OLD HABITS DIE HARD. but to those who complain you are the one looking foolish when you complain.Some nights 262's were costing bishops 968 perks (highest i've seen) and this was well before reset time. So I for 1 think overall skill goes to rooks, But I also think alot of good pilots leave to go rook because (now just 2cents here) game play and team work. ROOKS would be even better if they threw out morphy the sl*t.
Without using the "C" word I understand that there are some 'abusers', but given the volume of data being analyzed the relative impact of a few 'abusers' is statistically insignificant. We can also assume that they are more or less evenly distributed.
As far as flying higher being the sole cause or even a contributing factor. If flying high were enough to make one 'effective', any dweeb with 10 minutes spare time would suddenly become 'effective' , this, obviously, is not the case. In any event, your supposition that Rooks fly higher than everyone else is purely sujective and unsupported by any data. I fly on all sides, from my 'subjective' observations there are just as many alt-monkeys on Bishops as Rooks or Knights.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13 Maybe talent was not the best choice of words. I will go back to my earlier vernacular and use 'effectiveness."
[/B]
Even "effectiveness" does not necessarily describe what you're seeing. You would need a measure like K/S or K/T to measure effectiveness. It's possible, for example, that Rooks achieve a higher K/D ratio than other countries, but they fly twice as many sorties with twice as many kill-free landings as everyone else. I would not necessarily consider that "effective" or efficient flying.
We need to carefully consider the level of measurement of this variable. We can only state that Rooks consistently achieve a higher K/D ratio than the other teams. We cannot, no matter how compelling it may seem, state otherwise without more precise measures.
As for the validity of the K/D ratio as a measuring tool. It is/was a good enough tool for the Air Forces of every country of the world during wartime, so it's good enough for our virtual air forces here in simulated war.
[/b]
I'm not saying that K/D ratio is an invalid measure. You just need to keep in mind what it measures and the problems inherent in reading too much into it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Even "effectiveness" does not necessarily describe what you're seeing. You would need a measure like K/S or K/T to measure effectiveness. more precise measures.
This is my take. Rooks are runners. I will fight you till i am bingo ammo then ditch. I will stay up till im out of fuel then ditch.
A rook will rtb with 2 kills that he vulched. They seem to think it makes them fighter pile its. To me its a game to play
I say I can beat 90% of the rooks in an even 1v1
And I am just an average nit.
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I conclude this dramaticically higher effectiveness is a result of more talent, skill and superior tactics.
After finishing our whirlwind tours of each country, I cannot agree with this.
My observations and summary on the Rooks effectivness is due to their teamwork and their comraderie. Rooks, for the most part, cover each other better than any country that I have flown with.
Even when we were just new to the Rooks, if I was in trouble, 2, 3, or 4 guys would drop out of the sky and clear you, and most times without having to ask. They are on the constand look-out for each other. It's part of their overall country character.
I would surmise that when the Rooks were in the bucket getting slammed day in and day out, and when they decided to do something about it (RJO), they created a country wide bond that still holds them together to this very day.
Its not superior talent, skill, or tactics ... altho they posses all these skills ... no different than any other country ... it's comraderie that puts them over the top.
I really enjoyed my stay with the ROOKS, but we are back with the Knights and will remain here for quite some time. The Knights have a good bit of comraderie, but not at the level of the Rooks.
I missed half of our tour with the Bish while on vacation, so I cannot really comment on them. In the short time I was there, I did get to fly with some great guys/sticks and for the most part enjoyed my stay with the Bish.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I conclude this dramaticically higher effectiveness is a result of more talent, skill and superior tactics.
After finishing our whirlwind tours of each country, I cannot agree with this.
My observations and summary on the Rooks effectivness is due to their teamwork and their comraderie. Rooks, for the most part, cover each other better than any country that I have flown with.
Even when we were just new to the Rooks, if I was in trouble, 2, 3, or 4 guys would drop out of the sky and clear you, and most times without having to ask. They are on the constand look-out for each other. It's part of their overall country character.
I would surmise that when the Rooks were in the bucket getting slammed day in and day out, and when they decided to do something about it (RJO), they created a country wide bond that still holds them together to this very day.
Its not superior talent, skill, or tactics ... altho they posses all these skills ... no different than any other country ... it's comraderie that puts them over the top.
I really enjoyed my stay with the ROOKS, but we are back with the Knights and will remain here for quite some time. The Knights have a good bit of comraderie, but not at the level of the Rooks.
I missed half of our tour with the Bish while on vacation, so I cannot really comment on them. In the short time I was there, I did get to fly with some great guys/sticks and for the most part enjoyed my stay with the Bish.
Very interesting observations Slapshot. I have found the exact same thing. Rooks just naturally perform mutual support roles. I fly alone 99% of the time, the only reason I can get away with this and survive like I do in the MA is because Rooks look out for other Rooks. Often I have been alone in the prescence of several enemy when another Rooks comes along and without saying a word we start loose deucing quite efficiently. You call it comraderie, but what it really is, is superior tactics.
The natural employment of superior tactics has a profound effect on how engagements play out. Working in tactical concert Rooks increase their individual effectiveness exponentially. Even if Rooks are not numerically superior locally the impromptu use of superior tactics more than makes up for it. If Rooks do happen to also be locally superior numerically well...we know what happens, alot of enemy get a fresh plane real quick.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Even "effectiveness" does not necessarily describe what you're seeing. You would need a measure like K/S or K/T to measure effectiveness. It's possible, for example, that Rooks achieve a higher K/D ratio than other countries, but they fly twice as many sorties with twice as many kill-free landings as everyone else. I would not necessarily consider that "effective" or efficient flying.
We need to carefully consider the level of measurement of this variable. We can only state that Rooks consistently achieve a higher K/D ratio than the other teams. We cannot, no matter how compelling it may seem, state otherwise without more precise measures.
[/b]
I'm not saying that K/D ratio is an invalid measure. You just need to keep in mind what it measures and the problems inherent in reading too much into it.
-- Todd/Leviathn [/B]
I agree that K/D is only a partial measure. I post these threads in part hoping that HTC will complete the more comprehensive statistics engine that has been, "Coming Soon" for over two years now.
Zazen
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Even "effectiveness" does not necessarily describe what you're seeing. You would need a measure like K/S or K/T to measure effectiveness. more precise measures.
I say I can beat 90% of the rooks in an even 1v1
And I am just an average nit. [/B]
Reallly? 90% Wow! That's a pretty broad stroke there buddy! ;)
For someone who fights to the death, and never lands your K/T is terrible! You have 5 kills/hour last camp, that is worse than mine, and I land virtually all of my kills. You also only get 1 kill per sortie, similiarly unimpressive for someone who is supposedly better than 90% of Rooks and fights to the death. I guess you never have to wait very long to get in a fresh plane? ;)
Zazen
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okay i take it back zazan is sling chit. lol
by the way zazen its not cheating killing a shade account, now looked down on if you get caught by players but its thier money thier rep if caught.....Just dumb but I know I would love my customers to but a 2nd sign. to make them look better.
best comeback from a guy killing a shade account I've seen is bs I'll have skuzzy ban you tomorrow for this. I said wow your going to call skuzzy and say gd rod367th caught me killing shade account i want him banned?
heres best story of beefing up score catching. I up from a base that flashed for a second, think noe since its no where near enemy base. A set of bombers up ask where hes going he says don't know yet. Next thing hes taking off agin 2 mins later as i'm searching for noe inbound. I spot low dot turn towards it. Over the Radio Coms hey leave the p40 alone he's mine. I said okay have at it. guy takes bombers right to p40 all 3 disappear in seconds. p40 turns and starts to run away. I couldn't catch it since i was in a 110 got close enough to see it was p40. i go back land. guy flying bombers has logged, And on text buffer comes ********** 25kills p40. I go check his squad p40 guy, and find out bomber pilot was in same squad lol. Now I get the he's all mine.:)
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Originally posted by rod367th
okay i take it back zazan is sling chit. lol
by the way zazen its not cheating killing a shade account, now looked down on if you get caught by players but its thier money thier rep if caught.....Just dumb but I know I would love my customers to but a 2nd sign. to make them look better.
best comeback from a guy killing a shade account I've seen is bs I'll have skuzzy ban you tomorrow for this. I said wow your going to call skuzzy and say gd rod367th caught me killing shade account i want him banned?
I never disagreed with you that this occurs. I did not call it cheating, I referred to it as 'abusing the system'. My contention is that compared to the 500,000 total kills by all countries every camp the statistical impact of a few 'abusers' is miniscule. Even if this abuse were on the scale of 50 people scoring 1,000 kills on 'shades' accounts (almost certainly a huge overestimation) it would still only represent 1% of the total monthly kills in the MA.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Reallly? 90% Wow! That's a pretty broad stroke there buddy! ;)
For someone who fights to the death, and never lands your K/T is terrible! You got 5 kills/hour last camp, that is worse than mine, and I land virtually all of my kills. You also only get 1 kill per sortie, similiarly unimpressive for someone who is supposedly better than 90% of Rooks and fights to the death. I guess you never have to wait very long to get in a fresh plane? ;)
Zazen
Well the Da will tell the story about yer skill mate. when you ready? :cool:
Stat monkey u are.
My broad stroke was on par with your broad strokes.
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I have a scoring question.
K/S.does this reflect "landed kills" or All kills landed or not?
Kind of off the subject a bit, but am just curious.
And Zazen, I kind of see where you are trying to go with this, and realize that you aren't deliberately trying to alienate the 3 countries. However, I still disagree wholeheartedly with your assumptions, simply because there are way to many variables to formulate an informed opinion on something like this.
But hey, whatever floats your boat.
RTR
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Originally posted by X2Lee
My broad stroke was on par with your broad strokes.
Actually, my broad stroke has data that corroborates it. Your broad stroke is supported by data that contradicts it.
Zazen
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Originally posted by RTR
I have a scoring question.
K/S.does this reflect "landed kills" or All kills landed or not?
Kind of off the subject a bit, but am just curious.
Kills per Sorties is simply how many kills you get per plane, including re-arms. Getting a new plane resets this. Whether you land them or not has no impact whatsoever on kills per sorties.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Actually, my broad stroke has data that corroborates it. Your broad stroke is supported by data that contradicts it.
Zazen
But my data had the challenge to kick yer lame arse. Now is good for me.
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Originally posted by rod367th
heres best story of beefing up score catching. I up from a base that flashed for a second, think noe since its no where near enemy base. A set of bombers up ask where hes going he says don't know yet. Next thing hes taking off agin 2 mins later as i'm searching for noe inbound. I spot low dot turn towards it. Over the Radio Coms hey leave the p40 alone he's mine. I said okay have at it. guy takes bombers right to p40 all 3 disappear in seconds. p40 turns and starts to run away. I couldn't catch it since i was in a 110 got close enough to see it was p40. i go back land. guy flying bombers has logged, And on text buffer comes ********** 25kills p40. I go check his squad p40 guy, and find out bomber pilot was in same squad lol. Now I get the he's all mine.:)
Sheesh! Post the film for pete's sake. That thread may not beat out the voss=metatron thread but the stripper thread may be in jeopardy :D
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Originally posted by RTR
And Zazen, I kind of see where you are trying to go with this, and realize that you aren't deliberately trying to alienate the 3 countries. However, I still disagree wholeheartedly with your assumptions, simply because there are way to many variables to formulate an informed opinion on something like this.
RTR
Yes, I am not trying to say Rooks are Gods and Bishops are toads or anything of the sort. What I am showing, and kill totals alone over the past 3 years prove this. Is that a countries' overall 'effectiveness'/success/kill-rate is not in any way, shape or form a factor of numbers in the MA at prime-time or any other time. The kill totals and K/Ds are almost identical for each country respectively from the beginning of AH to the present while the numbers of players on each country has fluctuated greatly during the same period.
My point is, numbers and country performance have not one thing to do with one another from a statistical point-of-view. The ability of any one team to aquire kills is a result of other factors, not raw numbers of players. I will leave it up to you guys to conjecture as to what those other factors may be.
Zazen
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You call it comraderie, but what it really is, is superior tactics.
Again ... I have to disagree.
From my observations, the only real "superior" thing that the Rooks have over the other countries is their willingness to help.
This goes a long way toward maintaining a very good K/D country-wide. The more pilots help other pilots get out of a jam and land their kills, results in good K/D averages.
The Rooks flying abilites are really no more superior than those that I have observed in the other countries.
I have been helped by Rooks who couldn't find their arnoldes with both hands when it comes to flying, but they were willing to drop in and attempt a clear and in most cases, caused the enemy to hesitate and/or change direction, which would lead to a kill for me in most instances ... and also the change to land my kills.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
You call it comraderie, but what it really is, is superior tactics.
Again ... I have to disagree.
From my observations, the only real "superior" thing that the Rooks have over the other countries is their willingness to help.
Willingness to help = superior tactics.
Superior tactics and flying skill don't necessarily have anything to do with one another. Superior tactics is defined as: deploying one's aircraft in a manner that is most conducive to providing you or a wingman with a killing opportunity while at the same time depriving the enemy of a killing opportunity. By definition, superior tactics does not necessarily require superior flying skill, just superior timing, positioning, and awareness.
I have known many fabulous sticks over the years, people who could out-fly a hummingbird in a pick-up truck. But, they had no tactical sense whatsoever. The result was alot of dying and very little killing for them. Although they were fabulous in terms of flying skill I never even considered them when assaying the local tactical scene because I knew they would not be doing the right thing, at the right time, at the right place and by no fault of their own, they were just completely 'unaware' tactically. People like that tend to be superstars of the DA and hapless victims in the MA.
Zazen
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I'll duel ya X2Lee. :D
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As Mark Twain said...
"There's three kinds of lies... Lies, Damn Lies,... and statistics."
I think the superior K/D of Rooks may have something to do with the stinkin' Rook vulchers who never help us GOOD Rooks take bases. Then just as the goon shows up to drop on the town - they fly back "RTB --- outta ammo" and land 12 vulch kills leaving the goon to get filet'd ...
:rofl
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Originally posted by Hyrax81st
As Mark Twain said...
"There's three kinds of lies... Lies, Damn Lies,... and statistics."
I think the superior K/D of Rooks may have something to do with the stinkin' Rook vulchers who never help us GOOD Rooks take bases. Then just as the goon shows up to drop on the town - they fly back "RTB --- outta ammo" and land 12 vulch kills leaving the goon to get filet'd ...
:rofl
That must be true! I never, ever see Bishops or Knights vulching!! :rolleyes:
Zazen:aok
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Originally posted by Stang
I'll duel ya X2Lee. :D
I never turn down a good fight Stang.
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Zazen your weenie side is blazing through buddy. I would like to see the kills per time included in your stats. K/d does not tell the story.
My observations and summary on the Rooks effectiveness is due to their teamwork and their camaraderie. Rooks, for the most part, cover each other better than any country that I have flown with.
Slap is right the rooks for the most part ask before they come screaming down and steal your kill. Many times I had guys string out an enemy on their 6 and let myself or whoever get the kill rather than reverse and make the situation bad for all of us. They were fun to fly with.
I would surmise that when the Rooks were in the bucket getting slammed day in and day out, and when they decided to do something about it (RJO), they created a country wide bond that still holds them together to this very day.
This might be part of it, but I would like to see the number of rooks that were rooks when they were outnumbered VS today. I personally think it has more to do with the number supremacy rather than some special bond they have. I say this because as the evenings wore on, as a rook, and the number advantage shifted away from the rooks, all the things mentioned did not happen as often or if at all. There were many times when I was a rook that I wondered why there were not as many check sixes as at other times or why it didn't seem like they were working as well together, then I would check the numbers and realize we were out numbered.
I also noticed that this behavior was not only special on the rooks side. On both Knights and Bish the check sixes would fly when we had numerical supremacy.
It easy to throw check sixes all over the place when you have a numerical advantage. It is much harder when you are outnumbered because you are so busy watching your own six.
After our whirl wind tour of Rooks and Bish I have to say there are some great sticks in all the countries, there are runners and weenies in all the countries, and every country has its fair share of Major Nelsons.
I do think the Rooks have better general etiquette, but I would in no way classify them as any more superior than the other country. For most of us, we know the numbers do not represent a clear picture and conclusions drawn against them are fouled by the meaninglessness of what they represent. Then numbers leave out many things that would create a more realistic comparison, such as weights for numerical advantages or disadvantages or weights for how dangerouse a sortie is (Upping from a capped Base etc.)
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This a magnificant example of a post full of sound and fury, signifying...nout, nothing, nadda, rien, niente.
Zazen gets the Award for most conspicous wastage of BBS bandwidth. :aok
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Originally posted by Adogg
This a magnificant example of a post full of sound and fury, signifying...nout, nothing, nadda, rien, niente.
Zazen gets the Award for most conspicous wastage of BBS bandwidth. :aok
Yea, ok, guilty as charged, but at least it promotes interesting discussions which is more than I can say for most of the threads started here. ;)
Zazen:aok
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I also noticed that this behavior was not only special on the rooks side. On both Knights and Bish the check sixes would fly when we had numerical supremacy.
It easy to throw check sixes all over the place when you have a numerical advantage. It is much harder when you are outnumbered because you are so busy watching your own six.
[/B]
Interesting observations from your limited time as Rooks, but if you are agreeing with Slappy that Rooks' teamwork explains the statistics there's a problem. Rooks had exactly the same statistics even when they were hugely outnumbered 24/7 by hordes of Bishops.
Obviously, Check6'ing is harder when outnumbered, for everyone, as you often have to mauever your plane to 'aim' the check 6, this is not always practical while heavily engaged. But, the overall mutually supportive team-play is omnipresent on Rooks regardless of waning numbers both historically and in the present. In fact, I contend that as numbers dwindle the mutually supportive teamplay on Rooks actually improves as the individual need for organized tactics is required to maintain survivability.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I have known many fabulous sticks over the years, people who could out-fly a hummingbird in a pick-up truck. But, they had no tactical sense whatsoever. The result was alot of dying and very little killing for them. Although they were fabulous in terms of flying skill I never even considered them when assaying the local tactical scene because I knew they would not be doing the right thing, at the right time, at the right place and by no fault of their own, they were just completely 'unaware' tactically. People like that tend to be superstars of the DA and hapless victims in the MA.
Zazen
name 3 DA "superstars" who are "tactically unaware hapless victims" in MA.
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None of those numbers take into account fun.
Is the dweeb with a .36 to 1 K/D ratio having fun? If yes HE WINS!!
Is the dweeb with a 13 to 1 K/D ratio having fun? If yes HE WINS!!
...if you are having fun you win, no matter what numbers get posted.
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Originally posted by Shane
name 3 DA "superstars" who are "tactically unaware hapless victims" in MA.
I highly doubt I could name anyone who is a DA superstar according to you Shane... ;) So I'm not even going to go there, we all know you are the premier DA superstar! ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by Furious
None of those numbers take into account fun.
Is the dweeb with a .36 to 1 K/D ratio having fun? If yes HE WINS!!
Is the dweeb with a 13 to 1 K/D ratio having fun? If yes HE WINS!!
...if you are having fun you win, no matter what numbers get posted.
Granted Furby. I tried to come up with a formula to measure 'fun'. But, it started to look like Einstein's attempts at coming up with the 'Unified Field Theory" formula, so I gave up. ;)
Zazen
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But, the overall mutually supportive team-play is omnipresent on Rooks regardless of waning numbers both historically and in the present. In fact, I contend that as numbers dwindle the mutually supportive teamplay on Rooks actually improves as the individual need for organized tactics is required to maintain survivability.
Like I said Zazen, when the numbers were down so was all the "extra omnipresent team-play" That was my unbiased expieriance. You are very biased and therefore your conlusions are clouded and biased as well.
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Originally posted by mars01
Zazen your weenie side is blazing through buddy. I would like to see the kills per time included in your stats. K/d does not tell the story.
I would love nothing more than to do that. If there was any possible way I would. Hopefully HTC reads these posts and finishes the 'Coming Soon' portion of the scores section that would include the other factors. I strongly suspect that the inclusion of the various other elements that constitute the fighter score would serve to even further bolster my contentions in this thread.
Zazen
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Originally posted by mars01
Like I said Zazen, when the numbers were down so was all the "extra omnipresent team-play" That was my unbiased expieriance. You are very biased and therefore your conlusions are clouded and biased as well.
Actually, you are as biased as anyone, moreso even, your assertions are based on fragmented, limited periods, during one brief stint with Rooks. Subjective impressions without empirical evidence over a very finite time-frame are by their very nature biased, it's impossible for them to be otherwise. The simple fact is, the data is the only thing that is unbiased, and the data contradicts you on this point.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I highly doubt I could name anyone who is a DA superstar according to you Shane... ;) So I'm not even going to go there, we all know you are the premier DA superstar! ;)
Zazen
nuh, uh.... you made the assertion, back it up using your own subjective observations.
i make no claims or representations as to who *you* might consider a "DA superstar."
based on my own subjective observations and definition of someone who is good in the DA, i can't think of any who are "tactically unaware hapless victims" in the MA.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I would love nothing more than to do that. If there was any possible way I would. Hopefully HTC reads these posts and finishes the 'Coming Soon' portion of the scores section that would include the other factors. I strongly suspect that the inclusion of the various other elements that constitute the fighter score would serve to even further bolster my contentions in this thread.
Zazen
One thing that you might want to keep in mind is that maybe HT won't publish those stats if people keep using them to poke others in the eye.
Publish your stats, but try to leave out the smugness and "superior" crap.
Your "read between the lines" intentions of publishing these stats only seem to bring discord amoungst the community at large, which, IMHO is not a good thing.
All in all, it really boils down to what Furious said ... it's not often that he has great insight, but when he does ... it's good ... ;)
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Originally posted by Shane
nuh, uh.... you made the assertion, back it up using your own subjective observations.
i make no claims or representations as to who *you* might consider a "DA superstar."
based on my own subjective observations and definition of someone who is good in the DA, i can't think of any who are "tactically unaware hapless victims" in the MA.
I'm not biting! ;)
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Originally posted by Shane
nuh, uh.... you made the assertion, back it up using your own subjective observations.
i make no claims or representations as to who *you* might consider a "DA superstar."
based on my own subjective observations and definition of someone who is good in the DA, i can't think of any who are "tactically unaware hapless victims" in the MA.
I'll take a stab at it ...
WildThing
Nomak
Shane
Leviathn
These are guys that I have fought in the DA and in the MA and I know for a fact that none of them can fight their way out of a wet paper bag in the MA scenario, but will hand you your arnold in the DA.
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RTR don't know what yur smokin to come up with the chimp thing, but pass it down:D And AKAK quit lookin in my windows I do own gunns:eek:
Panman:cool:
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Two things Zazen:
1) "When rooks were outnumbered 2 millenia ago.." by Bishops? Yet according to your unimpeachable stats the Bish universally suck so it must not have been too bad after all right?
In fact using your own statistics for 2003 each Rook is "worth" 1.4 Bish This means that if K/D were the all important stat you make it out to be rook "skill" would acheive parity with bish "numbers" at 140 bish to 100 rooks. Making the numbers say 200 bish to 100 rooks only means that the rooks are at a "slight disadvantage due to their mad sk1llz" because in an even world this would only mean that rooks are only 40 pilots down to the "skill" difference. A 40 person difference in the MA now I don't think anyone will argue is that significant from a numbers perspective but a 100 person difference definately sets off buzzers. So if Rook skill is what you make it out to be and could indeed operate at only a slight disadvantage due to the skill differences between Bish and Rook when outnumberd 2 to 1, where exactly did the Rook complaining about being outnumbered come from since their skill is enough to offest the numerical difference? Why does this even still come up? Think K/D stats still show everything and that, to use your own words "have a ZERO NET effect"?
2) The core fallacy to your argument is that it is numbers that most directly effect perception in the MA. If numbers are even then it does begin to come down to skill. However if one side consistently has a higher number of players they are able to either have large attacks against a given target or pursue meaningful attacks against multiple attacks. Either way it is through saturation alone that the defenses of the country are attacked are overwhelmed. Skill really doesn't enter into the equation at all. For example, do you think that someone with a K/D ration of 6 to 1 would have much chance to maintain this ratio if he were always in fights solo where he was outnumbered 6 to 1? In your scenario killing all 6 opponents should only be an "average" accomplishment and should be readily repeatable. Think this really is the case?
What this leads to is that the side with the most numbers is able to take bases more consistently, regardless of skill and simply through saturation. In other words, when one side is able to roll over the others with impunity because of numbers and the other two countries are constantly fighting against terrific odds (even if their K/D ratios say it should be no problem) that people will begin to call foul.
It is only if the numbers are even or close to even that skill begins to enter the equation.
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Give me a break Zazen, I have nothing to gain or prove from any of this.
Tell me how long does one need to fly for a country before they can get sense of that country. We spent 2 months with the rooks and I accumualted 66 total hours. I think that is more than enough time.
You also agree the scoring system has flaws and does not paint an accurate picture but yet you hold to your conclusions based on flawed data.
For a guy that goes to great lengths to make his Zazen account so special ( i.e. Shade accounts to hide when you are not at your best etc.) you are giving yourself a big black eye and burning any respect you might have deserved with such silly pursuits and hanging on to such a flawed point of view.
Good luck. lol
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Originally posted by Bubbaj6
Two things Zazen:
1) "When rooks were outnumbered 2 millenia ago.." by Bishops? Yet according to your unimpeachable stats the Bish universally suck so it must not have been too bad after all right?
In fact using your own statistics for 2003 each Rook is "worth" 1.4 Bish This means that if K/D were the all important stat you make it out to be rook "skill" would acheive parity with bish "numbers" at 140 bish to 100 rooks. Making the numbers say 200 bish to 100 rooks only means that the rooks are at a "slight disadvantage due to their mad sk1llz" because in an even world this would only mean that rooks are only 40 pilots down to the "skill" difference. A 40 person difference in the MA now I don't think anyone will argue is that significant from a numbers perspective but a 100 person difference definately sets off buzzers. So if Rook skill is what you make it out to be and could indeed operate at only a slight disadvantage due to the skill differences between Bish and Rook when outnumberd 2 to 1, where exactly did the Rook complaining about being outnumbered come from since their skill is enough to offest the numerical difference? Why does this even still come up? Think K/D stats still show everything and that, to use your own words "have a ZERO NET effect"?
2) The core fallacy to your argument is that it is numbers that most directly effect perception in the MA. If numbers are even then it does begin to come down to skill. However if one side consistently has a higher number of players they are able to either have large attacks against a given target or pursue meaningful attacks against multiple attacks. Either way it is through saturation alone that the defenses of the country are attacked are overwhelmed. Skill really doesn't enter into the equation at all. For example, do you think that someone with a K/D ration of 6 to 1 would have much chance to maintain this ratio if he were always in fights solo where he was outnumbered 6 to 1? In your scenario killing all 6 opponents should only be an "average" accomplishment and should be readily repeatable. Think this really is the case?
What this leads to is that the side with the most numbers is able to take bases more consistently, regardless of skill and simply through saturation. In other words, when one side is able to roll over the others with impunity because of numbers and the other two countries are constantly fighting against terrific odds (even if their K/D ratios say it should be no problem) that people will begin to call foul.
It is only if the numbers are even or close to even that skill begins to enter the equation.
That doesn't wash, if one team has superior skill, they can surmount the net effect of superior numbers at relatively little detriment to their survivability as Rooks did in the past. In the situation of disparity in numbers a team with inferior numbers would have to either be intrinsically better than the numerically superior team and/or adapt and employ superior tactics to maintain comparable kill totals and survivability figures. Rooks did this when outnumbered. Bishops and to a lesser extent Knights are NOT doing this when outnumbered.
If the statistics are remaining consistant irrelevant of numerical disparities, what is the reason in your opinion? Why do Rooks have an equally impressive K/D even when outnumbered? Why do Bishops have a horrifically piss poor K/D whether they have numbers or not? Why do Knights always have a 0.96:1 K/D whether outnumbered or not? Answer those questions to my satisfaction using proof and sound logic and we'll have some debate!
I look forward to your reply... ;)
Zazen
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Why do Rooks have an equally impressive K/D even when outnumbered? Why do Bishops have a horrifically piss poor K/D whether they have numbers or not? Why do Knights always have a 0.96:1 K/D whether outnumbered or not?
Zazen the manipulation of your numbers are easy and reflect little.
I'll give you one scenario..
It could be that the rooks have a bunch of radish safe flyers that have a horse***** K/T because they rarely engage without an advantage. I.e. You, Beetle, ... etc. This would easily explain alot.
Perhaps the Bish have many players that could give a crap about score and up in the worst scenarios possible and rarely go over 10k.
And perhaps the knights have a mix of both.
If there is any decent indicator of what country has the best pilots you should lool as past KOHs and crunch some numbers on those guys.
Either way you cut it numbers based on K/D don't mean a thing, let alone who or which country is better or not.
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Originally posted by mars01
Why do Rooks have an equally impressive K/D even when outnumbered? Why do Bishops have a horrifically piss poor K/D whether they have numbers or not? Why do Knights always have a 0.96:1 K/D whether outnumbered or not?
Zazen the manipulation of your numbers are easy and reflect little.
I'll give you one scenario..
It could be that the rooks have a bunch of radish safe flyers that have a horse***** K/T because they rarely engage without an advantage. I.e. You, Beetle, ... etc. This would easily explain alot.
Perhaps the Bish have many players that could give a crap about score and up in the worst scenarios possible and rarely go over 10k.
And perhaps the knights have a mix of both.
Either way you cut it numbers based on K/D don't mean a thing, let alone who or which country is better or not.
That may be possible, but it's not proveable, it's just your opinion until we get statistics that can bear you out. I would honestly like to know if that is the case myself, I highly doubt it is, but I'd love to know all the same.
One reason I do not think your postulation is correct is looking at the Top 99 Fighter pilots. In order to compete at the upper echelon of the Fighter Pilot spectrum you must maintain a very respectable K/T. The fact that Rooks totally dominate the Top 99 list indicates that many Rooks have an equally impressive if not superior K/T relative to their Bishop and Knight peers.
Zazen
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Your first paragraph proves one of my points. You say that Rooks were able to overcome numerical imbalance in the past due to "superior tactics". So why is that the boards are literally seeping with Rooks in other threads saying it is simply payback time for when they were on the low end of they found ways to compensate for it? It either was a problem or was not yet Rooks are trying to have it both ways.
Also, I would still argue that someone with a K/D ratio of 6:1 would simply not be successful in a 6 vs 1 engagment no matter what tactics they employed. My own is porbably around 3:1 when discounting upping form a vulched base, dinking around with a new plane, etc. and I know what my chances are in a 3 vs 1 fight. Not very good.
While I don't think stats show the full picture, I will concede that I think your rational for why they remain pratically unchanged is probably accurate. I agree that they are largely dependant on the "core" group within each of the countries and that these core groups do not move around much. It is afterall human nature to hang out with your friends so I think it can be said that the longer someone plays with a given side the less likely they are to switch while the newbies/score potatos probably gravitate to whatever side is currently winning because that is what they are interested in.
My point is not that the stats don't illustrate the core issue to most people. That it gets real old when you are consistently steam-rolled and horded out of existance. I could be the best ace ever but if I am fighting against incredible odds all the time or can't even get off the ground it is going to get old in a hurry. \
Another way to look at it is only when the numbers are close to even will fights come down to skill. It is one thing to loose to someone who outflew me or to loose a base to someone that put on a better offense than our own defense. It is however, quite another to loose simply because there was no one else available to counter the fourth simultaneous horde.
Losing to someone who is better than me is fun. Losing to someone I have routinely beaten before but loose to now simply because they are in a horde is not. This loss will also go into their K/D ratio and, under circumstances such as this thread, will sudenly mean that this same person is more "skilled" than I am when we both now who comes out on top usually. That is why the stats offer only a limited basis for your assertions.
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There is so much crud in this thread its amazing, quit your whining and complaining, cause u know what, no matter what side your on you will always have someone at 30K 20K 10K whatever. So quit your crap talk, no matter what side your on it WILL ALWAYS BE THE SAME!, so no more of this rooks have 30k n1ks, cause so will your side.
Fly the dang airplane.......
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Originally posted by Bubbaj6
Another way to look at it is only when the numbers are close to even will fights come down to skill. It is one thing to loose to someone who outflew me or to loose a base to someone that put on a better offense than our own defense. It is however, quite another to loose simply because there was no one else available to counter the fourth simultaneous horde.
Losing to someone who is better than me is fun. Losing to someone I have routinely beaten before but loose to now simply because they are in a horde is not. This loss will also go into their K/D ratio and, under circumstances such as this thread, will sudenly mean that this same person is more "skilled" than I am when we both now who comes out on top usually. That is why the stats offer only a limited basis for your assertions.
I'm going to have to call you on one point here. I think skill plays a much larger role when outnumbered. If you are outnumbered the only way you are going to survive and/or kill is by being very skillfull. If you are outnumbered AND lack skill, you're totally screwed. With even numbers, even random chance is going to allow you to get some kills and possibly survive an engagement.
Interestingly, as I fly Rooks more than any other country, skill also plays a much larger role when your side has the numbers. Not because of your opponent but because of friendly competition. In order to get kills Sunday nights for example, you have to be quicker, smarter, a better shot and be better at anticipating than everyone in your area. It's actually survival of the fittest in motion. In alot of ways it's actually much easier to get kills and survive when outnumbered, within reason of course. I often find myself pushing untenable situations as a Rook trying to get a kill strictly because I'm low on gas and have alot of ammo left and end up dying due to a general lack of prey.
Zazen
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That may be possible, but it's not proveable, it's just your opinion until we get statistics that can bear you out. I would honestly like to know if that is the case myself, I highly doubt it is, but I'd love to know all the same.
One reason I do not think your postulation is correct is looking at the Top 99 Fighter pilots. In order to compete at the upper echelon of the Fighter Pilot spectrum you must maintain a very respectable K/T. The fact that Rooks totally dominate the Top 99 list indicates that many Rooks have an equally impressive if not superior K/T relative to their Bishop and Knight peers.
Take it with a grain of salt Zazen. I was just pointing out a possible scenario. :D I used you and Beetle as examples because you both have said in the past that you like to fly high and with an advantage.
But my point is that same. Your numbers do not show a total picture. The top 99 guys are flawed by the same problems with your other data. There is no way around it. It is what it is.
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There is so much crud in this thread its amazing, quit your whining and complaining, cause u know what, no matter what side your on you will always have someone at 30K 20K 10K whatever. So quit your crap talk, no matter what side your on it WILL ALWAYS BE THE SAME!, so no more of this rooks have 30k n1ks, cause so will your side.
Tho I couldn't agree more I think your posted in the wront thread lol.:D
Whos crying about alt dweebs, this thread is more about making false assumptions on flawed data.
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Originally posted by mars01
Take it with a grain of salt Zazen. I was just pointing out a possible scenario. :D I used you and Beetle as examples because you both have said in the past that you like to fly high and with an advantage.
But my point is that same. Your numbers do not show a total picture. The top 99 guys are flawed by the same problems with your other data. There is no way around it. It is what it is.
I don't actually fly as high as often as I like everyone to believe. ;) That's a bit of propaganda that serves to leave me unmolested down low in my Typhoon. ;) I get a bad rap because when I am in an E-Fighter I make damn sure I'm at least a little higher than my better turning opponent before I engage. A 2k advantage often balloons into a 20k advantage when the "Fish Story", from my victims come out on public chat. ;)
Anyways, don't take me the wrong way, I'm just a very 'intense' person, in this game and in real life. It's all in good fun. I just love AH, love WW2 flight combat and history. Savoring and debating the nuances and finer points is high quality entertainment to me, especially when I'm stuck at work and can't actually fly. :(
Zazen
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I know and actually you have recanted your earliest positions on alt, which I do respect.
Again I used you as an example to drive the point home.
Personally I could care less who the better country is. All I care about are there enough cons to kill lol.
But it is insane to make these judgement calls on such flaky data. Thats all most of us are trying to say.
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I will not contest that skill definately helps determine the point at which the sitaution becomes untenable, but my point still stands. No matter how much skill one side may have at some point they will reach the breaking point where the numbers imbalance is simply not conducive to fun or success any more. Compounding this issue is that the lesser skilled players and score potatos jump to the side that is "winning" which further contributes to the numbers imbalance problems and it quickly turns into a downward spiral. Much like what happened when the rooks were overwhelmed before and like what is happening now.
Skill and numbers have a cumaltive effect and simply cannot be evaluated as independent forces on the dynamics of the MA. The most skilled person will eventually be overwhelmed in a fight against superior numbers and by the same token the least skilled can overwhelm their strongest adversary given sufficient numbers. Even you must concede this point.
That is why simply looking at K/D ratios is not an effective tool to explain one side's ability to consistently win in the MA. The two are insperably linked.
Ironically, it is the very complaining the rooks did back when they were overwhelmed and the continued reminders that are bringing this to the forefront now. People simply don't want to return to that state because it does not hold the same appeal that a fight hinging around skill (and admitedly random chance) does.
I do know exactly what you mean about when you are part of a horde and the different kind of skill that must be employed to still get kills. I cannot tell you how many times I pulled the dumb-arse auger trying to outfly my own countrymen rather than the enemy :)
I will say this though: At least a horde of knights sounds more noble :)
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Originally posted by mars01
I know and actually you have recanted your earliest positions on alt, which I do respect.
Again I used you as an example to drive the point home.
Personally I could care less who the better country is. All I care about are there enough cons to kill lol.
But it is insane to make these judgement calls on such flaky data. Thats all most of us are trying to say.
Yea, like I tell Todd, I'd love to have more complete data, whether it proves my speculations correct or not, I'd just love to work the numbers. I love baseball for the statistics too, I'm just a big geek I guess. I find it frustrating that it would be rather easy for HTC to finish the Stats section on the score page and give us access to all the component statistics that are already kept in the database but for some reason hasn't in almost 3 years of, "Coming Soon". All the statistics we need are there, they just need to be compiled from individuals to country.
Zazen
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I'm just a big geek I guess.
You guess ?
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Originally posted by Bubbaj6
I will not contest that skill definately helps determine the point at which the sitaution becomes untenable, but my point still stands. No matter how much skill one side may have at some point they will reach the breaking point where the numbers imbalance is simply not conducive to fun or success any more. Compounding this issue is that the lesser skilled players and score potatos jump to the side that is "winning" which further contributes to the numbers imbalance problems and it quickly turns into a downward spiral. Much like what happened when the rooks were overwhelmed before and like what is happening now.
Skill and numbers have a cumaltive effect and simply cannot be evaluated as independent forces on the dynamics of the MA. The most skilled person will eventually be overwhelmed in a fight against superior numbers and by the same token the least skilled can overwhelm their strongest adversary given sufficient numbers. Even you must concede this point.
That is why simply looking at K/D ratios is not an effective tool to explain one side's ability to consistently win in the MA. The two are insperably linked.
Ironically, it is the very complaining the rooks did back when they were overwhelmed and the continued reminders that are bringing this to the forefront now. People simply don't want to return to that state because it does not hold the same appeal that a fight hinging around skill (and admitedly random chance) does.
I do know exactly what you mean about when you are part of a horde and the different kind of skill that must be employed to still get kills. I cannot tell you how many times I pulled the dumb-arse auger trying to outfly my own countrymen rather than the enemy :)
I will say this though: At least a horde of knights sounds more noble :)
I think part of our misunderstanding on this point is because you are looking at the same issue from a microcosmic point-of-view whereas I am looking at it from a macrocosmic point-of-view. I think we can agree that if the numerical disparity deviates more than 25% between the countries, relative skill has increasingly limited returns. But, with the exception of Sunday nights for Rooks and that 6 month+ period in 2002 there has never been a sustained deviation of that magnitude in AH. So, relative skill still should be the deciding factor when looking at overall country success.
As far as isolated limited engagements are concerned, skill will unlikely decide a lop-sided fight, in that you are correct, so much depends on luck and chance in a 3 on 1 for example. All it takes is for one of those 3 to decide to pull for a HO on an overwhelmed but skillfull opponent and fight's over.
But, in terms of an entire arena of players skill and tactics still holds sway over marginally lop-sided battles, as Slappy alluded to before, how one side applies its forces tactically can have an amplifying effect on their impact. An effect that is disproportionately greater in its impact relative to its numbers. Even Slappy conceded this seems to be the case with Rooks. On the flip-side, a country can mis-apply it's numerically superior forces causing its net effect to be disproportionately less than the sheer numbers would indicate. This seems to be the case with Bishops.
Zazen
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Well the Da will tell the story about yer skill mate. when you ready? :cool:
Stat monkey u are.
My broad stroke was on par with your broad strokes.
X2Lee, you should know Zazen well enough from AW that he will not engage in a 1v1 fight nor duel. Both will reveal his shortcomings, which is the underlying reason for his posting this thread. Which is also the reason why he made mention of your stats against his to show "his uberness" but doesn't point out that the fighting styles of both of you are polar opposites. I've had the pleasure of flying with you for many years, some of those in Red Dawn and I know how you fly, aggressive and willing to mix it up. Zazen on the other hand is more timid, will not engage in 1v1s unless he's got a superior advantage and will not engage if you are coalt. He usually hangs back outside of a furball gathering altitude and pounces on those that are already engaged in a fight. So let Zazen hide behind these numbers if they give him a false sense of being good, because you know and I know how Zazen would fair in a 1v1 and I wouldn't put my money on Zazen.
ack-ack
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True enough, but a macrocosm is simply a collection of microcosms therefore what I am describing is all the fights (micro)that overall determine the flow of overall battle in the MA (macro).
I fully agree that if numbers are close to even then battles and the war both will be determined mostly by skill which is what everyone wants. When the numbers greatly favor one side, skill is left by the wayside.
I also agreeded with you that skill can help offset slight differences in numbers however everyone must recognize that eventually a point of no return is reached. I am not arguing either of these ideaswith you at all.
The backlash right now in the community against the growing trend of numbers disparity is an attempt to proactively deal with the situation in order to prevent what has happened before in the form of the Rooks being seriously outnumbered from re-occuring against a different side.
I am sure that if I went back to look at posts from that time I could find the Bish making many of the same arguments the Rooks are today (though not neccessarily your arguments) about why it didn't matter.
So, do you agree that K/D and/or skill is not the only dynamic at work in the MA? I'll let others debate the notion of whether high K/D ratios= skill because I think you threw that one out there just to provide yourself with some entertainment while you are at work :) All one has to do is look at some of your comments in the Voss thread to see what you really think :)
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I'll take a stab at it ...
WildThing
Nomak
Shane
Leviathn
These are guys that I have fought in the DA and in the MA and I know for a fact that none of them can fight their way out of a wet paper bag in the MA scenario, but will hand you your arnold in the DA.
You've never winged with Leviathn have you? One time when we were winging, we got jumped by 6 Rookies at low alts. I downed one immediately and then turned to engage another one that was trying to sneak on Lev's 6 when I noticed that there were only 3 Rookies left and downed the Rookie trying to saddle up on Lev. In the 3 minutes it took me to down the 2 Rookies, Lev already killed the other 4. Other than Drex and eaglr, I've never seen SA as well as Lev's in the 10+years of playing these games.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Panman
And AKAK quit lookin in my windows I do own gunns:eek:
Panman:cool:
Crap!
ack-ack
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These are guys that I have fought in the DA and in the MA and I know for a fact that none of them can fight their way out of a wet paper bag in the MA scenario, but will hand you your arnold in the DA.
That would be sarcasm. lol
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
X2Lee, you should know Zazen well enough from AW that he will not engage in a 1v1 fight nor duel. Both will reveal his shortcomings, which is the underlying reason for his posting this thread. Which is also the reason why he made mention of your stats against his to show "his uberness" but doesn't point out that the fighting styles of both of you are polar opposites. I've had the pleasure of flying with you for many years, some of those in Red Dawn and I know how you fly, aggressive and willing to mix it up. Zazen on the other hand is more timid, will not engage in 1v1s unless he's got a superior advantage and will not engage if you are coalt. He usually hangs back outside of a furball gathering altitude and pounces on those that are already engaged in a fight. So let Zazen hide behind these numbers if they give him a false sense of being good, because you know and I know how Zazen would fair in a 1v1 and I wouldn't put my money on Zazen.
ack-ack
AKAK, you amuse me with your 'understanding' of how I fly. Quite incredible considering I have never fought you or fought with you.
You have no clue what I do, obviously. For someone who is famous for flying 30k in an EZ-Gunnery-Mode P38 you sure are quick to pass judgement on me. Since, you seem to enjoy comparisons, let's compare your stats with mine from last camp shall we? Including K/T which should show who is more timid and prone to alt excessively:
AKAK's Tour 54 Fighter Stats:
K/D:2.28:1
K/S:1.69
K/H:5.97
Hit %:7.7%
Points:36,568
Fighter Rank:110th
Fighter Hours:62:42
Zazen's Tour 54 Fighter Stats:
K/D:12.28:1
K/S:2.89
K/H:6.51
Hit %:9.97%
Points:48,000
Fighter Rank:17th
Fighter Hours:39:29
Conclusions:
-You die more than 5 times as much as I do per kill.
-You kill just over one-half as many per sortie as I do.
-You get almost 1 kill an hour less than I do, which I find especially incredible since your P38 is an amazing climber and I only fly planes that climb like bricks. This is especially significant since you rarely land kills which should be saving you considerable time. This just goes to show how much time you spend alting and fleeing.
-Your Hit % is 2.2% less than mine, which translates to you being 23% less accurate a shot than I am, which is also amazing since I fly only planes with wing mounted guns and you fly only the P38 that is nose-fire EZ gunnery mode.
-I out-score you by 12k even though I flew just over half as many hours as you did ranking 17th vs. your 110th in the process.
Summary:
There is not one single category in Fighter Piloting you are even close to me in, including Kills/Time. I won't even bring up the fact that you have a year and half headstart on me in Aces High on top of all that....Time for a reality check there spud.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13 So, relative skill still should be the deciding factor when looking at overall country success.
You cannot make this assertion with any confidence. The level of measurement of the data does not allow it. You hit on the correct description earlier when you noted that, despite fluctuations in numbers over time, the Rooks consistently achieve a higher K/D ratio than the other teams. That is a statement you can make based on the data available. Any statement beyond that involves conjecture that the data cannot and will not substantiate.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Like a broken record.....
"We've got the best pilots....... Plain and simple.."
Zazen even with your statistics punching them upside the head they are still in denial....
Then we hear oh, i dont land my kills.. oh you outnumber...
the outnumber one i take offence to.. If they rode the gauntlet 2-3 years ago they would have skills too.. Either develope them or die and die alot..
I remember when our 4-5 bases at a time were taken right out from under us.. In like 10-15 mins or less.... remember those fun days sitting on 4+ kill sorties having all your return bases stolen and fighting (note fighting..) thru enemy territory to get home.. in a light g10 gas tank thats a chore.. they dont understand what thats all about.. they just dont understand... even with RJO I have yet to see whole country halves get rolled in 15 minutes.. But when you have 150 + 150 vs 50 thats what happens... and those 50 are the rook ringers you see today..
If you ask me about the current numbers scenario you fellas got it easy..
You need to study your history you might learn something..
DoctorYo
PS Great work Zazen....
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
Like a broken record.....
"We've got the best pilots....... Plain and simple.."
Zazen even with your statistics punching them upside the head they are still in denial....
Then we hear oh, i dont land my kills.. oh you outnumber...
the outnumber one i take offence to.. If they rode the gauntlet 2-3 years ago they would have skills too.. Either develope them or die and die alot..
I remember when our 4-5 bases at a time were taken right out from under us.. In like 10-15 mins or less.... remember those fun days sitting on 4+ kill sorties having all your return bases stolen and fighting (note fighting..) thru enemy territory to get home.. in a light g10 gas tank thats a chore.. they dont understand what thats all about.. they just dont understand... even with RJO I have yet to see whole country halves get rolled in 15 minutes.. But when you have 150 + 150 vs 50 thats what happens... and those 50 are the rook ringers you see today..
If you ask me about the current numbers scenario you fellas got it easy..
You need to study your history you might learn something..
DoctorYo
PS Great work Zazen....
Thanks DoctorYO,
This reminds me of those shows on extraterrestrials. There's always some pinhead from the Government looking at the pictures, the film, hearing eye-witness accounts from the military and the police but sill stubbornly debunking it all as a hoax.
He says something like, "Extra-terrestrials do not exist, these 500 people with no motive for deception are all suffering from mass delusions."
This type of person wouldn't believe in extra-terrestrials if one walked up to him at the breakfast table and plopped a juicy, green, alien crap-biscuit right there in his wife's oatmeal.
I deal with them at work and here on this message board, I'm getting used to it. You've just got to keep throwing those 'annoying' things called FACTS up in their face until they go blind. ;)
Zazen
-
what plane u fly zazen?
bet its in the top 3 on speed
cause yer a runny bunny
a no skil wont fight runny bunny
-
Originally posted by DoctorYO
PS Great work Zazen....DoctorYo
Just more than I wanted to quote with the rest of your talk....
Just want to say this ....
Please practice safe sex you two.:aok :lol :lol :rofl :rofl
-
Originally posted by X2Lee
what plane u fly zazen?
bet its in the top 3 on speed
cause yer a runny bunny
a no skil wont fight runny bunny
I fly 4 planes to the almost total exclusion of all others:
Typhoon
P51D
F6F-5
P47D-40
Once in a blue moon I'll fly:
Hurricane IIc
Spit5
Spit9
Tempest
I have never flown:
Lgay7
Zazen
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
I fly 4 planes to the almost total exclusion of all others:
Typhoon
P51D
F6F-5
P47D-40
and yer ingame ID...
-
Originally posted by X2Lee
Originally posted by Zazen13
I fly 4 planes to the almost total exclusion of all others:
Typhoon
P51D
F6F-5
P47D-40
and yer ingame ID...
Ummm...
Zazen ;)
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
Ummm...
Zazen ;)
I see like I said all the planes u fly are run bunnies except the
f6 its a CV ack bunny.
-
Originally posted by X2Lee
I see like I said all the planes u fly are run bunnies except the
f6 its a CV ack bunny.
If I run so much how come I have 6.5 kills/ hour and you only have 5 kills/hour, and you fly one of the fastest climbing planes in the game and I only fly planes that climb like bricks?
Zazen
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
If I run so much how come I have 6.5 kills/ hour and you only have 5 kills/hour, and you fly one of the fastest climbing planes in the game and I fly only planes that climb like bricks?
Zazen
Did you read the part about kicking yer arse?
Whats yer lame excuse?
-
Originally posted by X2Lee
Did you read the part about kicking yer arse?
Whats yer lame excuse?
Haha, that's what I thought!
Get back in your hole!
Zazen :aok
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
Haha, that's what I thought!
Get back in your hole!
Zazen :aok
Thats what I thought for your info I can easily be in the top 25
pilot ranks in the game. Its just to lame to do tho.
I think its sissified is why I dont.
U have to be a runny bunny to do it.
-
my noodle is bigger
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
The purpose of this thread is to show the numbers whiners, numbers have nothing to do with their performance, misfortunes, disgruntlement and general dissatisfaction with how their respective teams are performing. The performance of their team is a factor of something that transcends numbers. I have stated this in three different ways throughout this thread.
Zazen
Fascinating!! Using numbers to prove that numbers mean nothing!! BRILLIANT!!!!! :D
-
Originally posted by X2Lee
Thats what I thought for your info I can easily be in the top 25
pilot ranks in the game. Its just to lame to do tho.
I think its sissified is why I dont.
U have to be a runny bunny to do it.
Really? You do? Have you checked Shane's score last camp? He landed 19 sorties of 231 sorties flown and was ranked 45th in fighter! I highly doubt he ever ran.
Sounds like you're just making up lame excuses to explain away your ineptitude to me!
Zazen
-
Originally posted by NoBaddy
Fascinating!! Using numbers to prove that numbers mean nothing!! BRILLIANT!!!!! :D
Fight Fire with Fire! I say... ;)
Zazen
-
After wading through this thread, one overriding thought keeps coming back to me. Something about "....Christmas turkey....".
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
Really? You do? Have you checked Shane's score last camp? He landed 19 sorties of 231 sorties flown and was ranked 45th in fighter! I highly doubt he ever ran.
Sounds like you're just making up lame excuses to explain away your ineptitude to me!
Zazen
You dont have the fighters skill shane has in one pinkie.
-
Originally posted by X2Lee
You dont have the fighters skill shane has in one pinkie.
Neither do you apparently! ;)
Zazen
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
I have never flown:
Lgay7
Zazen [/B]
Never ever?
Would you not rather hate it from a position of some authority?
You should try it ....... its one of the best birds in the arena.
-
Originally posted by Tilt
Never ever?
Would you not rather hate it from a position of some authority?
You should try it ....... its one of the best birds in the arena.
Never, ever in my entire life, not even in the training arena or offline. I never will either. I picked the most dweeby plane in the set to hate, but to hate it from a position of moral superiority I had to swear a life-long blood oath of self-imposed prohibition.
Zazen
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You've never winged with Leviathn have you? One time when we were winging, we got jumped by 6 Rookies at low alts. I downed one immediately and then turned to engage another one that was trying to sneak on Lev's 6 when I noticed that there were only 3 Rookies left and downed the Rookie trying to saddle up on Lev. In the 3 minutes it took me to down the 2 Rookies, Lev already killed the other 4. Other than Drex and eaglr, I've never seen SA as well as Lev's in the 10+years of playing these games.
ack-ack
My dear friend Ack-Ack ... I guess that my post didn't portray the amount of "tounge-in-cheek" that I had intended.
I know all to well the abilities of Levi ... both fighting with and against ... ;)
-
Originally posted by SlapShot
My dear friend Ack-Ack ... I guess that my post didn't portray the amount of "tounge-in-cheek" that I had intended.
I know all to well the abilities of Levi ... both fighting with and against ... ;)
I feel your pain Slappy, typed text just doesn't convey 'sarcasm' well. We need to invent a "Sarcastic" emoticon! We'll be rich! It would revolutionize online communication!
Zazen
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
There is not one single category in Fighter Piloting you are even close to me in, including Kills/Time. I won't even bring up the fact that you have a year and half headstart on me in Aces High on top of all that....Time for a reality check there spud.
Zazen
Again, these stats do not reflect the skills of a player. I fly aggressive, my intent is on the kill, not to 'simulate' the day in the life of a fighter pilot. I don't play for rank or 'stats', I play for the kill and killing is what I'm good at. If you really think you can take me or pretty much anyone else in this thread 1v1, time to back up your claims. After all if the Rookies are such masters of the air, you should have no troubles with us little folk.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
You may fly more missions against Rooks than Bishops and therefore kill more Rooks. But, Rooks kill you at a 10% greater rate than Bishops. So, how many you kill you get is just a factor of who you choose to fight, nothing more...
Zazen
Like I said, you havent a clue etc etc
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
AKAK....
-You kill just over one-half as many per sortie as I do.
-You get almost 1 kill an hour less than I do, which I find especially incredible since your P38 is an amazing climber and I only fly planes that climb like bricks. This is especially significant since you rarely land kills which should be saving you considerable time. This just goes to show how much time you spend alting and fleeing.
See, that just shows how poorly those stats represent what you want them to. AKAK flies the majority of his time between 1-5AM EST. It would be expected that his k/t and k/s would be lower than average since he flies off peak times. In my experience during those times those that are on usually stick together, so you either end up spending alot of time trying to find a secluded fight or go to the hot area, and be put in the position of being picked.
For that matter, in my half joking first post to this thread I neglected to mention that my k/d rook/bish were fairly close until the last week and a half of the tour when a rook ganging, or a continous convoy of 22K+ rooks were more prevailent. The last week of the tour alone my P38 k/d dropped from about 5.25 to around 4.5 just due to the number of rooks.
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Other than Drex and eaglr, I've never seen SA as well as Lev's in the 10+years of playing these games.
ack-ack
I have, not taking anything from the guys you've mentioned. But I'd put my money on WILBUZ anyday.
I had the privilege of flyin WITH and mostly against Wilbuz, and that boy can make a 109/190 dance like no others business. In the DA it's a whole new ballgame though.
There are others that deserve mention who could give anyone real trouble flyin, Lazer comes too mind, and a hole host of others but I'll spare you the names.
Ack-Ack you gotta stop calling people timid flyers. One day it could be an exercise in SA, meaning being careful and trying to survive, another time its all hell breaks loose and your trigger happy. But in general its always a practice of both :aok
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Again, these stats do not reflect the skills of a player. I fly aggressive, my intent is on the kill, not to 'simulate' the day in the life of a fighter pilot. I don't play for rank or 'stats', I play for the kill and killing is what I'm good at. If you really think you can take me or pretty much anyone else in this thread 1v1, time to back up your claims. After all if the Rookies are such masters of the air, you should have no troubles with us little folk.
ack-ack
You don't get very many kills, you are slow at killing in a great climber and your aim is mediocre with a plane that is really easy to aim with. I have looked up your performance since you began playing Tour 21 October 2001. There is nothing beyond poor to mediocre in there. You fly only one plane, and you don't even outperform people with similiar experience in lesser planes. Whether you fly with score in mind or not is not the point. You admit you fly to kill, but you don't do that very well. Do you fly to aim?
You are a self-proclaimed master of the P38 who is mediocre at best even when compared to other P38 drivers, undoubtedly of lesser quality in your mind.
Zazen
-
Originally posted by Murdr
See, that just shows how poorly those stats represent what you want them to. AKAK flies the majority of his time between 1-5AM EST. It would be expected that his k/t and k/s would be lower than average since he flies off peak times. In my experience during those times those that are on usually stick together, so you either end up spending alot of time trying to find a secluded fight or go to the hot area, and be put in the position of being picked.
No need to make excuses for AKAK, I know EXACTLY what he's all about ;)
Zazen
-
Originally posted by SLO
I have, not taking anything from the guys you've mentioned. But I'd put my money on WILBUZ anyday.
I had the privilege of flyin WITH and mostly against Wilbuz, and that boy can make a 109/190 dance like no others business. In the DA it's a whole new ballgame though.
Wilbuz is a great pilot, I try and wing with him whenever he's on. Our 190/109-P38 mix is deadly.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
You are a self-proclaimed master of the P38 who is mediocre at best even when compared to other P38 drivers, undoubtedly of lesser quality in your mind.
Zazen
Then you should have no troubles against me in a P-38 :c)
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
No need to make excuses for AKAK, I know EXACTLY what he's all about ;)
Zazen
Whatever, site the stats and then brush off the factors that mold the stats.
-
Originally posted by Murdr
Whatever, site the stats and then brush off the factors that mold the stats.
I'm not brushing off anything. You take 100 pilots, they all fly at different times. Giving someones' poor performance undo credence because he only flies late-night on weekdays is a lame excuse. He flies on weekends all day long and during prime-time, that more than makes up for any late night issues. Someone who logs 70+ hours just in a fighter per camp is getting enough trigger time to make up for any time-slot issues.
I fly during the day alot, with a scenario not unlike AKAK's during late night when I also fly regularly, do you see me peddling that around as an excuse? Nope.
Zazen
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Then you should have no troubles against me in a P-38 :c)
ack-ack
I dislike the P38, it's big, it has a glass tail, it compresses too easily and I have no desire whatsoever to micro-manage trim settings. Planes that climb great and dive like crap have always made my head spin in bewilderment at the ironic paradox, the P38 and the 109s are examples in AH.
As far as duelling is concerned, I am estimating I've been asked, cajoled, threatened, coerced, manipulated, goaded and pleaded with to duel egomaniacs of various shapes, colors, sizes and descriptions at least 86,752 times in ten years for the purpose of adolescent, ego assuaging, noodle measuring.
Guess what? I grew out of that in High School...
I'll tell you like I have told the 86,751 before you. If you want to duel in fun, for educational purposes, we'll discuss it privately and perhaps set a time amicable to both of us one evening. Otherwise, the only duel you will get out of me is when you have the misfortune of coming across me in the MA. The improptu duels in the MA, where you only know who popped your cherry when you see, "You Have Been Killed By Zazen", is more my style.:aok
Zazen
-
I am not peddaling excuses. Just pointing out what I have actually seen and you have not. You have been reading tea leaves from the get go. The tea leaves dont tell all. They wont tell you who would win a mass 1v1 tournement because many of the top contenders dont give a rodents posterier about the stats they post for you to review. This isnt baseball where even playing is contingent on posting good stats. Your analisis of individuals only applies to those who put a priority on stats.
-
Originally posted by Murdr
Your analisis of individuals only applies to those who put a priority on stats.
That's not necessarily true at all. There are many pilots who consistantly rank in the Top 100 in fighter who also, purportedly, do not care one wit about their statistics. They just happen to rank highly by virtue of their innate ability to kill efficiently and effectively. I think it was Todd who ranked in the top 100 (45th or so if memory serves) a year or so ago who did not land a single sortie. Shane does it on a regular basis while surviving less than 10% of his sorties, and he even has a mediocre hit % like AKAK, which makes ranking i nthe top 100 even harder.
I myself ranked 68th in fighter not too long ago on my wife's account just goofing around, yankin' & bankin' in TnB planes while learning the F6F. I made no special attempt to live, or in any way enhance my K/S, K/T or Hit %. I ranked in the top 100 accidentally, strictly by virtue of whatever innate skill and ability I possess, all the while flying aircraft I was totally unfamiliar with relatively early in my AH career.
The fact that AKAK fails to do this with his experience in an aircraft he is the self-professed master of, even incidentally, speaks volumes.
Zazen
-
Ok so if I got this straight, AKAK is a "mediocre at best" pilot supported by statistics that dont mesure up to where you think they should be for someone who is ignoring statistics.
Zazen is a "timid flyer" supported by a refusal to back up his 'Im better than you are AKAK' statistical interpretations with a direct demonstration 1v1.
And if posting stat comparisons isnt "adolescent, ego assuaging, noodle measuring" then I dont know what is.
-
Originally posted by Murdr
And if posting stat comparisons isnt "adolescent, ego assuaging, noodle measuring" then I dont know what is.
Not at all, scroll up and read what AKAK wrote, the post I quoted when I replied with the statistics comparisons. AKAK, with no tangible evidence whatsoever draws all kinds of conclusions about me as a pilot and as a person. He drew these conclusions with zero empirical evidence and zero personal, first hand knowledge. My posting his statistics as compared to mine and drawing my own conclusions based on some hard data was an act of self-defense, nothing more.
I realize he is your squaddie and you have some kind of moral obligation to go to the mat for him but, this is nothing new. AKAK makes it his personal agenda to attack me in just about every thread I post in on this BBS, even when completely out of context with the thread. I have a right to defend myself as I see fit when he does this.
I don't recognize your name so am not sure if you are aware of this, I suspect you are, but I have some bad blood with your squadron. I was a member of your squadron maybe ten or eleven years ago, I left on very bad terms. There is alot of very old animosity between me, Reemo, Noamo, and some others that will remain nameless. AKAK's personal attacks on me are a symptom and constant reminder of this 'ancient history'. His constant abuse and attacks on what he assumes is my flying style, actually has nothing whatsoever to do with the game of today. It's a personal vendetta with origins a decade old.
I think it best for the well-being of the community if from this point forward I simply ignore any and all posts by any member, past or present, of the 479th Raiders. I started this thread to encourage discussion about some of the finer points of AH, not to get into a pissing contest with you, AKAK, or any other 479th Raider.
I wish you all the best! May all your sorties be fun!
Zazen
-
[
I fly during the day alot, with a scenario not unlike AKAK's during late night when I also fly regularly, do you see me peddling that around as an excuse? Nope.
Zazen [/B][/QUOTE]
its twice as easy to survive the MA in the daytime
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
I dislike the P38, it's big, it has a glass tail, it compresses too easily and I have no desire whatsoever to micro-manage trim settings. Planes that climb great and dive like crap have always made my head spin in bewilderment at the ironic paradox, the P38 and the 109s are examples in AH.
Zazen
someone posted stats on planes the other day
the planes u fly were all over 1.5 kill ratios. Some because they were blue ack bunnies some because they were runners.
the 38 had a .82 k/d ratio. so anyone who has a ratio in a 38 thets higher thsn that is above average 38 pilot.
You fly a 38 around awhile and you will see its a BFT
But you just said its too hard to fly.
And ur a daytime weenie
I fly night and day and day is more than twice as easy
:D
-
. The improptu duels in the MA, where you only know who popped your cherry when you see, "You Have Been Killed By Zazen", is more my style
Zazen [/B][/QUOTE]
translation...
"the only fight u get out of me is i cherry pick you in the MA"
-
Originally posted by Zazen13
I dislike the P38, it's big, it has a glass tail, it compresses too easily and I have no desire whatsoever to micro-manage trim settings. Planes that climb great and dive like crap have always made my head spin in bewilderment at the ironic paradox, the P38 and the 109s are examples in AH.
Zazen
Dives crappy? P-38 is excellent in the dives, the only ones that have troubles are those that don't really know how to fly it.
Micro-manage trim? P-38 doesn't have torque so you really don't need to adjust the trim. Again, micro-managing trim just shows inexperience.
Never thought I'd see the day that I rise up to defend a Luftwhiner plane but the bf109 also had very good dive characteristics.
Personally, it sounds to me like you've never even taken a flight in either plane and just spewing up the stuff you read in the boards.
What is making your head spin in bewilderment is that you actually need to know what you're doing in either plane to be successful and that is something that's beyond your abilities.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by:Zazen
As far as duelling is concerned, I am estimating I've been asked, cajoled, threatened, coerced, manipulated, goaded and pleaded with to duel egomaniacs of various shapes, colors, sizes and descriptions at least 86,752 times in ten years for the purpose of adolescent, ego assuaging, noodle measuring.
Guess what? I grew out of that in High School...
I'll tell you like I have told the 86,751 before you. If you want to duel in fun, for educational purposes, we'll discuss it privately and perhaps set a time amicable to both of us one evening. Otherwise, the only duel you will get out of me is when you have the misfortune of coming across me in the MA. The improptu duels in the MA, where you only know who popped your cherry when you see, "You Have Been Killed By Zazen", is more my style.
Dude this is WEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAK!!!!!!. You are talking a lot of smack!!! You are hiding behind flaky stats and then when you are asked to back it up Man vs Man you back down like some little radishcat. If you can publicly thrash someone around like this you should have the balls and skills to go to the DA and fight it out.
The fact that you won't put your money where your mouth is tells alot about your faith in those numbers you are throwing around.
Bad Form my friend bad form. You should stop smack talking if you can't do the walking.
-
I myself ranked 68th in fighter not too long ago on my wife's account just goofing around, yankin' & bankin' in TnB planes while learning the F6F. I made no special attempt to live, or in any way enhance my K/S, K/T or Hit %. I ranked in the top 100 accidentally, strictly by virtue of whatever innate skill and ability I possess, all the while flying aircraft I was totally unfamiliar with relatively early in my AH career.
hmm second wifes account sure zazen
u are a score potato no doubt u even make it a study
-
Originally posted by X2Lee
[
I fly during the day alot, with a scenario not unlike AKAK's during late night when I also fly regularly, do you see me peddling that around as an excuse? Nope.
Zazen
its twice as easy to survive the MA in the daytime [/B][/QUOTE]
I beg to differ, espeically during the summer. Nothing but a bunch of kiddies on late-night, most of the adults are in bed, getting sleep, for work the next day.
-
Originally posted by X2Lee
someone posted stats on planes the other day
the planes u fly were all over 1.5 kill ratios. Some because they were blue ack bunnies some because they were runners.
the 38 had a .82 k/d ratio. so anyone who has a ratio in a 38 thets higher thsn that is above average 38 pilot.
You fly a 38 around awhile and you will see its a BFT
But you just said its too hard to fly.
And ur a daytime weenie
I fly night and day and day is more than twice as easy
:D
My planes are not all over 1.5 that is a complete lie first of all, you need to work on your reading skills before you spout off nonsense. Secondly, the 38 has a low average because it is the pork n' auger plane of choice for the building battlers.
Tour 54:
F6F-5's K/D:1.01:1
P51D's K/D:0.97:1
Typhoon's K/D:1.55:1
P47D-40's K/D:0.78:1
The only plane I regualrly fly with anything vaguely close to a 1.5:1 K/D is the Typhoon.
-
Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
hmm second wifes account sure zazen
u are a score potato no doubt u even make it a study
How does playing on my wife's account necessarily make me a score potato? Often, the only reason I play on my wife's account is because she is Knights and I use her account to help knights vs. Bishops when their numbers get espeically bad.
Zazen
-
Originally posted by mars01
Dude this is WEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAK!!!!!!. You are talking a lot of smack!!! You are hiding behind flaky stats and then when you are asked to back it up Man vs Man you back down like some little radishcat. If you can publicly thrash someone around like this you should have the balls and skills to go to the DA and fight it out.
The fact that you won't put your money where your mouth is tells alot about your faith in those numbers you are throwing around.
Bad Form my friend bad form. You should stop smack talking if you can't do the walking.
It has nothing to do with my testosterone levels. It has everything to do with pandering to the ego's of people who would love nothing more than to get out of a losing BBS debate by flinging their member out on the table in some feeble attempt to pretend their argument or rationale has merit based on the outcome of staged duel in the DA at 5k. That is what I call 'weak'.
The first thing people want to do with anyone when they are losing a debate here, or in the MA, is duel in 5k spits or whatever. The DA does not represent a debate resolving tool to me, the DA represents a fun, learning tool to be used with friends to me. I have never and will never use the DA to settle disputes in opinion or logical arguments...ever.
Zazen
-
LOL
"runny bunny"
That one is gonna stick around!
Zazen, before you dig your hole deeper, you oughta go find something more productive to do with your time.
btw....what is the wifes in game handle?
enquiring minds want to know.
RTR
-
Stats don't take into account how someone flies. It is much easier to kill with numbers or altitude (or at least to not die) than it is when outnumbered and outalted. In addition, just about every statistic suffers when one consistently plays at a disadvantage; being outnumbered on the deck forces one to take whatever shot presents itself no matter how low the probability of hitting. As such, hit percentage suffers.
Also keep in mind that players may "game" fighter rank by only selecting fighter missions when they know they'll have a higher chance of obtaining quick, easy kills. The rest go under attack missions. Players who make no distinction between fighter missions and attack missions thus face more difficulty in pumping up their stats.
Vulching likewise improves all stats categories. Can we honestly state that a team able to put twice as many players in the air as any other team would somehow vulch only as often or less often than those other sides? Any discrepency in base ownership indicates vulching opportunities. If Rooks, for example, own twice as many bases as both Knights and Bishops, then by definition they have had twice as many vulching opportunities due to attacking and capturing those bases.
Comparing statistics between players to prove "skill" thus proves little. It might indicate skill, and in cases where both players fly the same plane in the same way in similar circumstances, we may say that it provides a valid comparison. But since AKAK and Zazen fly different planes in different ways under totally different circumstances, how can we say who is better or not? Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that AKAK is better than Zazen or that Zazen is better than AKAK, but rather I'm saying that you can't judge who is better by stats or rank alone.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Zazen13
It has nothing to do with my testosterone levels. It has everything to do with pandering to the ego's of people who would love nothing more than to get out of a losing BBS debate by flinging their member out on the table in some feeble attempt to pretend their argument or rationale has merit based on the outcome of staged duel in the DA at 5k. That is what I call 'weak'.
Dude you brought in your score against his...
Originally posted by Zazen13
There is not one single category in Fighter Piloting you are even close to me in, including Kills/Time. I won't even bring up the fact that you have a year and half headstart on me in Aces High on top of all that....Time for a reality check there spud.
Zazen
His reply was...
Again, these stats do not reflect the skills of a player. I fly aggressive, my intent is on the kill, not to 'simulate' the day in the life of a fighter pilot. I don't play for rank or 'stats', I play for the kill and killing is what I'm good at. If you really think you can take me or pretty much anyone else in this thread 1v1, time to back up your claims. After all if the Rookies are such masters of the air, you should have no troubles with us little folk.
Your reply to the above...
Originally posted by Zazen13
You don't get very many kills, you are slow at killing in a great climber and your aim is mediocre with a plane that is really easy to aim with. I have looked up your performance since you began playing Tour 21 October 2001. There is nothing beyond poor to mediocre in there. You fly only one plane, and you don't even outperform people with similiar experience in lesser planes. Whether you fly with score in mind or not is not the point. You admit you fly to kill, but you don't do that very well. Do you fly to aim?
So you boast that score proves how good a player is. Any you believe that your score is so much better than his so you must be the better pilot.
So when the rubber meets the road you can't back it up. I am not defending him for any other reason than you stand by score but you can't stand by actual performance. This tells me you have no faith in what your flaky score promotes otherwise you would be able to meet the challenge and prove that you deserve the score you are so highly promoting.
Put up or shut up I think is the way it goes. Sorry man you backed yourself into this hole.
If you slayed him in the DA then your score does have some value, if he slayed you then your score and most of your assumptions don't. That's all that needs to be said.
All of your assumption that you state as fact are based on score, it has nothing to do with testosterone and everything to do with getting out there and backing up the checks your mouth is cashing.
You are losing the argument by not backing up your claims with your ability.
It's nothing personal I think your an ok guy, but I do think if people are going to throw score and their ability areound like it means something, they should be able to back that up.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Stats don't take into account how someone flies. It is much easier to kill with numbers or altitude (or at least to not die) than it is when outnumbered and outalted. In addition, just about every statistic suffers when one consistently plays at a disadvantage; being outnumbered on the deck forces one to take whatever shot presents itself no matter how low the probability of hitting. As such, hit percentage suffers.
Also keep in mind that players may "game" fighter rank by only selecting fighter missions when they know they'll have a higher chance of obtaining quick, easy kills. The rest go under attack missions. Players who make no distinction between fighter missions and attack missions thus face more difficulty in pumping up their stats.
Vulching likewise improves all stats categories. Can we honestly state that a team able to put twice as many players in the air as any other team would somehow vulch only as often or less often than those other sides? Any discrepency in base ownership indicates vulching opportunities. If Rooks, for example, own twice as many bases as both Knights and Bishops, then by definition they have had twice as many vulching opportunities due to attacking and capturing those bases.
Comparing statistics between players to prove "skill" thus proves little. It might indicate skill, and in cases where both players fly the same plane in the same way in similar circumstances, we may say that it provides a valid comparison. But since AKAK and Zazen fly different planes in different ways under totally different circumstances, how can we say who is better or not? Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that AKAK is better than Zazen or that Zazen is better than AKAK, but rather I'm saying that you can't judge who is better by stats or rank alone.
-- Todd/Leviathn
BINGO!
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Stats don't take into account how someone flies. It is much easier to kill with numbers or altitude (or at least to not die) than it is when outnumbered and outalted. In addition, just about every statistic suffers when one consistently plays at a disadvantage; being outnumbered on the deck forces one to take whatever shot presents itself no matter how low the probability of hitting. As such, hit percentage suffers.
Also keep in mind that players may "game" fighter rank by only selecting fighter missions when they know they'll have a higher chance of obtaining quick, easy kills. The rest go under attack missions. Players who make no distinction between fighter missions and attack missions thus face more difficulty in pumping up their stats.
Vulching likewise improves all stats categories. Can we honestly state that a team able to put twice as many players in the air as any other team would somehow vulch only as often or less often than those other sides? Any discrepency in base ownership indicates vulching opportunities. If Rooks, for example, own twice as many bases as both Knights and Bishops, then by definition they have had twice as many vulching opportunities due to attacking and capturing those bases.
Comparing statistics between players to prove "skill" thus proves little. It might indicate skill, and in cases where both players fly the same plane in the same way in similar circumstances, we may say that it provides a valid comparison. But since AKAK and Zazen fly different planes in different ways under totally different circumstances, how can we say who is better or not? Keep in mind that I'm not suggesting that AKAK is better than Zazen or that Zazen is better than AKAK, but rather I'm saying that you can't judge who is better by stats or rank alone.
But one trip to the DA would prove one way or another what weight score carries. I coulds care less who the better pilot is, it's not that important. But if all Zazens assumptions this far are to hold water then he should be able to prevail in the DA.
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Originally posted by mars01
If you slayed him in the DA then your score does have some value, if he slayed you then your score and most of your assumptions don't. That's all that needs to be said.
All of your assumption that you state as fact are based on score, it has nothing to do with testosterone and everything to do with getting out there and backing up the checks your mouth is cashing.
You are losing the argument by not backing up your claims with your ability.
First off, I never said I was a better pilot, being a better pilot would be a measure of flying skill (ACM knowledge and application), as far as I can tell there is no statistic that measures just ones flying skill (ACM knowledge and application). I implied I am a more 'successfull' MA pilot. As we all know there is more to being a very 'successfull' MA pilot than just raw flying ability (SA, gunnery, tactical awareness, etc.). Taking this into account, how does a staged duel at 5k in whatever plane prove who is, in fact, the more successfull MA pilot?
As far as I can tell a staged 5k duel does not require even the tiniest droplet of Situational Awareness or Tactical Acuity (the decisions you make during a complex multi-plane engagement), all it requires is some ACM knowledge and a little aim. ACM knowledge and a little aim doesn't go too far by itself in the MA without alot of SA and TA.
On the other hand, looking at someone's fighter rank over an entire camp or series of camps does give you a pretty decent idea of how successfull they are in the MA whether they are flying for score or not, generally speaking. Of course there are exceptions to this as Todd pointed out, especially his example of the person who does not seperate his Fighter sorties from his Attack sorties. But, for the AKAK/Zazen comparison this was obviously not the case. We both seperated ours.
I do disagree with Todd on the MA numbers issue and how it impacts fighter rank sub-categories, I actually find it easier to kill more planes faster when outnumbered. My K/D may suffer a little, but it's usually so high anyways I've long since reached the point of diminishing returns.The lower K/D is nowhere near enough to outweigh the much higher K/S and K/T a target rich environment provides. Of course, there is a threshold of diminishing returns if the disparity becomes too great, but except for Sunday nights this threshold is rarely reached in the MA.
Zazen
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Originally posted by mars01
But one trip to the DA would prove one way or another what weight score carries. I coulds care less who the better pilot is, it's not that important. But if all Zazens assumptions this far are to hold water then he should be able to prevail in the DA.
Well, yes and no. Dueling and 1v1 skill is one aspect of MA skill but not all of it. Situational awareness and, to some extent, survival instinct also matter in the MA. Dueling alone can't measure these things.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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First off, I never said I was a better pilot, quote me where I said that I dare ya! I implied I am a more 'successfull' MA pilot. As we all know there is more to being a 'very successfull' MA pilot than just raw flying ability (SA, gunnery, tactical awareness, etc.).
Your back is against the wall and you are pandering.
Ok so you are a better MA pilot than he is because your score is higher.
What this means is that you have a better ability to manipulate your score in the MA where you can pick your engagements that you can easily win and not need a whole lot of skill.
To go 1 vs 1 against an opponent where the only advantage you have is your own skill is the only proof of how good you are in any arena.
You have just proven what everyone in this thread has said. Score means very little and does not accurately reflect anything other than one persons ability to manipulate their own score.
As far as I can tell a staged 5k duel does not require even the tiniest droplet of Situational Awareness or Tactical Acuity, all it requires is ACM knowledge and a little aim. ACM knowledge and a little aim, doesn't go too far on its own in the MA.
I disagree if your SA sucks you will suck in MA and in DA. But since your MA skill has given you such great SA as proven by your score you should have an advantage over anyone you duel with. So you are saying because you aren't testing your SA to the max that Dueling has no value or ability to prove one skill vs another? Please explain.
On the other hand, looking at someone's fighter rank over an entire camp or series of camps does give you a pretty decent idea of how successfull they are in the MA, generally speaking.
The only thing a fighter rank tells us based soley on the numbers is that people are good at picking fights they can easily win. Without being able to back their score up in a single pilot Vs pilot engagement there is no proof otherwise. If you are as good as your score says in the much more chaotic MA then you should have an easy time 1 vs 1. If you can't fight decently in a 1 vs 1 than you are just good at picking easy fights and not much else.
You shouldn't be so afraid of the DA honestly.
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Well, yes and no. Dueling and 1v1 skill is one aspect of MA skill but not all of it. Situational awareness and, to some extent, survival instinct also matter in the MA. Dueling alone can't measure these things.
I agree Lev, but all the basic and advanced skills and ones mastery of them most defiantely are tested in a duel. All the environment factors are not of course are not.
But again if a person has such a great score and that score means anything do you agree or disagree they should be able to back it up in the DA?
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Vulching likewise improves all stats categories. Can we honestly state that a team able to put twice as many players in the air as any other team would somehow vulch only as often or less often than those other sides? Any discrepency in base ownership indicates vulching opportunities. If Rooks, for example, own twice as many bases as both Knights and Bishops, then by definition they have had twice as many vulching opportunities due to attacking and capturing those bases.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I'll have to take your word for it on the vulching issue. I detest vulching and I refuse to do it. I would much rather just fly to a support base and kill their re-enforements coming in. But, from what I can tell from my 35k perch is, vulching isn't as prevalent as some would believe. There aren't too many people that will up a CAP'd field once and especially more than once these days and even when they do, there's 30 vulchers all competing for his arse. So, the impact vulching has on one individual's statistics is likely very minimal. Factor into that the great risk of dying to ground fire and you probably have a risk/reward wash.
Zazen
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I'll have to take your word for it on the vulching issue. I detest vulching and I refuse to do it. I would much rather just fly to a support base and kill their re-enforements coming in. But, from what I can tell from my 35k perch is, vulching isn't as prevalent as some would believe. There aren't too many people that will up a CAP'd field once and especially more than once these days and even when they do, there's 30 vulchers all competing for his arse. So, the impact vulching has on one individual's statistics is likely very minimal. Factor into that the great risk of dying to ground fire and you probably have a risk/reward wash.
There are people that have made vulching an art form and I seem them doing it more often than not. All it takes is one or two decent vulches to totaly affect your score. But there is only one place that separates the vulchers from the ones that have real fighter skill and thats the, yep you guessed it, DA. :D
Again this comes down to the fact that MA score is easily manipulated and padded. The only way we have to tell if a person really posses the ability to fight is in a 1 vs 1 match up be it in the MA or the DA.
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Originally posted by mars01
Your back is against the wall and you are pandering.
Ok so you are a better MA pilot than he is because your score is higher.
What this means is that you have a better ability to manipulate your score in the MA where you can pick your engagements that you can easily win and not need a whole lot of skill.
To go 1 vs 1 against an opponent where the only advantage you have is your own skill is the only proof of how good you are in any arena.
You have just proven what everyone in this thread has said. Score means very little and does not accurately reflect anything other than one persons ability to manipulate their own score.
I disagree if your SA sucks you will suck in MA and in DA. But since your MA skill has given you such great SA as proven by your score you should have an advantage over anyone you duel with. So you are saying because you aren't testing your SA to the max that Dueling has no value or ability to prove one skill vs another? Please explain.
The only thing a fighter rank tells us based soley on the numbers is that people are good at picking fights they can easily win. Without being able to back their score up in a single pilot Vs pilot engagement there is no proof otherwise. If you are as good as your score says in the much more chaotic MA then you should have an easy time 1 vs 1. If you can't fight decently in a 1 vs 1 than you are just good at picking easy fights and not much else.
You shouldn't be so afraid of the DA honestly.
Lol Mars, you are arguing just for the sake of arguing, but for the sake of public interest I'll bite. You are falling into the same trap as AKAK, making assumptions about my flying style and proclivity toward engagements of one type or another with ZERO first-hand knowledge. You assume, just because I have a great rank I do not ever fight at a disadvantage or engage in relatively equal 1 vs. 1's. I'm sorry old friend but that couldn't be further from the truth.
Obviously, nothing I say here is going to sink in, but assuming just because someone has a high fighter rank they MUST be flying for score and somehow subtely manipulating it, is just false. I rank highly even when flying with no regard whatsoever for score or survival, even engaging in situations that are almost certainly going to result in my untimely demise.
I have no fear of the DA, what I fear is setting a dangerous precident for myself whereby everyone with a chip on their shoulder challenges me to a grudge duel which by virtue of past acceptance I'm oblidged to accept. The DA represents a training tool for me, nothing more. If someone wanted to duel me for edification and education I'm there Baby! Just ask Shane, we duelled one afternoon when I first started playing AH, he kicked my prettythang in F6F-5 several times, was a great learning experience for me (I think I still have the films somewhere).
Zazen
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OK Zazen, I could manage some edification and education in DA :D
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Lol Mars, you are arguing just for the sake of arguing
Not true I think if you are going to come out and state that score is the Be All and End All of a persons ability then I for one want to see you back it up. Thats all. Is it wrong for me to ask you to put your money where your mouth is?
I do not put alot of weight in MA score, I do put alot of weight in people with a good MA score and the ability to back it up in an even match up, be it in the DA or the MA.
I do not put alot of weight in a guy that always flies from an advantage and cherry picks me when I am engaged with someone that really wants to fight. Not saying that is how you fly and I am not saying that I am above doing this. I am just saying it doesn't take much skill.
You are falling into the same trap as AKAK, making assumptions about my flying style and proclivity toward engagements of one type or another with ZERO first-hand knowledge. You assume, just because I have a great rank I do not ever fight at a disadvantage or engage in relatively equal 1 vs. 1's. I'm sorry old friend but that couldn't be further from the truth.
If you believed this you would back it up. There is no harm in going to the DA.
Obviously, nothing I say here is going to sink in, but assuming just because someone has a high fighter rank they MUST be flying for score is just false.
Cmon if you were so sure about your ability you would take the challenge. Don't give me some moral BS this is a game. Going to the DA has no ramifications or ill affects. If anything you are guarnateed some easy kills, some great fights or a good learning expieriance. Also it's not a matter of it needing to sink in. Don't insult me, that is a shure sign that you are losing grip.
I rank highly with even when flying with no regard whatsoever for score or survival, even engaging in situations that are almost certainly going to result in my untimely demise.
I really don't think you engage in many if any "situations that are almost certainly going to result in your untimely demise." especially with your Zazen account. If this is not the case then come clean with your shade accounts and let us know what they are?
what I fear is setting a dangerous precident for myself whereby everyone with a chip on their shoulder challenges me to a grudge duel which by virtue of past acceptance I'm oblidged to accept.
Give me a break Mother Teresa:D You make statements about your score VS another then you should be able to back them up. Akak did not have a chip on his sholder he just didn't agree with you and you two started lambasting him with your score. He wanted you to put your money where your mouth is. Something I think you are running from.
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How does playing on my wife's account necessarily make me a score potato? Often, the only reason I play on my wife's account is because she is Knights and I use her account to help knights vs. Bishops when their numbers get espeically bad.
now this is really interesting
:rolleyes:
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haven't been in the DA in a long time.....
last time was against WldThing, now that was a mistake, cause that boy had been practicing with some fine drivers. But still I went(even though I was warned) and got my big fat butt handed to me so fast for the 3 runs but the forth I whacked em.
DA can be a measuring stick somehow, but like I said, I don't make it a practice of goin to the DA but Wldthing did and it showed.....still didn't stop me from vulchin his prettythang in the MA.
make one mistake in the MA and I'll punch your clock. Just like alot of fine drivers out there that can do the same.
DA is for stall fighting between too of the same kind, it doesn't prove I can whack your Spit with my Typhoon:aok
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DA is for stall fighting between too of the same kind, it doesn't prove I can whack your Spit with my Typhoon.
I agree SLO that alot of the times the end result will be a knife fight, but it only ends up that way if both parties let it. I.E. If a E fighter is in the DA then he should practice E tactics, if he ends up in a stall fight, we'll I guess he is not as good at E tactics as he may think.
On the other hand, the majority of 1 Vs 1 that you get into in the MA also turn into Knife fights.
I am no DA star either. I am mostly on the learning end myself, but then again I am no star in the MA either lol.
I do think tho that if someone is going to throw around their score like some divining rod of skill, they should be willing and able and I would go as far as expected to take it to the DA if challanged. There really is no harm to come from it.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
OK Zazen, I could manage some edification and education in DA :D
You can beat bighorn in a 38 zazen(hes no good)
This is yer Daisy.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
now this is really interesting
:rolleyes:
Yeah Ill bet a 20 bucks if he comes clean on this shades account you WILL find Zazen has killed his shade account MANY times
Theres my money where my mouth is.
And its lots easier to survive the MA in the daytime(again)
Everyone knows this.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Yeah Ill bet a 20 bucks if he comes clean on this shades account you WILL find Zazen has killed his shade account MANY times
Theres my money where my mouth is.
And its lots easier to survive the MA in the daytime(again)
Everyone knows this.
You better watch yourself there tough guy. This has all been in good fun so far. But now you are accusing me of cheating, and that I will not tolerate. You better cool it, or there's going to be problems...
Zazen
P.S. It's fairly common knowledge my wife, Jessica's account is "Lexus". By the way, we only own one computer.
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Originally posted by mars01
Not true I think if you are going to come out and state that score is the Be All and End All of a persons ability then I for one want to see you back it up. Thats all. Is it wrong for me to ask you to put your money where your mouth is?
I do not put alot of weight in MA score, I do put alot of weight in people with a good MA score and the ability to back it up in an even match up, be it in the DA or the MA.
I do not put alot of weight in a guy that always flies from an advantage and cherry picks me when I am engaged with someone that really wants to fight. Not saying that is how you fly and I am not saying that I am above doing this. I am just saying it doesn't take much skill.
If you believed this you would back it up. There is no harm in going to the DA.
Cmon if you were so sure about your ability you would take the challenge. Don't give me some moral BS this is a game. Going to the DA has no ramifications or ill affects. If anything you are guarnateed some easy kills, some great fights or a good learning expieriance. Also it's not a matter of it needing to sink in. Don't insult me, that is a shure sign that you are losing grip.
I really don't think you engage in many if any "situations that are almost certainly going to result in your untimely demise." especially with your Zazen account. If this is not the case then come clean with your shade accounts and let us know what they are?
Give me a break Mother Teresa:D You make statements about your score VS another then you should be able to back them up. Akak did not have a chip on his sholder he just didn't agree with you and you two started lambasting him with your score. He wanted you to put your money where your mouth is. Something I think you are running from.
Mars, just a comment, your dissecting of posts into little chopped up phrases is highly annoying to read.
As far as duelling is concerned, until you pay my 15 bucks a month I'll duel who I want, when I want, if I want, how I want. We all draw our own lines in the sand as to what kind of behavior we are going to tolerate and how far we are willing to extend ourselves in this game. I have made it quite clear where my personal boundry lies and will not compromise myself for you, AKAK, or any other person who feels the need to bluster and spit venom in my general direction.
I have nothing I need to prove, I prove my mettle everytime I up a fighter in the MA. You perceive my not accepting duels from antogonistic and belligerent people as a sign of some weakness on my part. But, you have it backwards, I am not so insecure with myself that I require some sort of contrived contest to decide who is right or who is wrong in an intellectual debate. Wether I kick AKAK's prettythang or he kicks mine in a duel still doesn't answer the question of who is the more accomplished MA player.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
You better watch yourself there tough guy. This has all been in good fun so far. But now you are accusing me of cheating, and that I will not tolerate. You better cool it, or there's going to be problems...
Zazen
P.S. It's fairly common knowledge my wife, Jessica's account is "Lexus". By the way we only own one computer.
No its not cheating to kill yer shades account. yer reaching.
Good try.....
What kinda problems? Ya gonna cherrypick my 38?
You will find you will need to lose a lot of that 35k to get me.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
No its not cheating to kill yer shades account. yer reaching.
Good try.....
What kinda problems? Ya gonna cherrypick my 38?
You will find you will need to lose a lot of that 35k to get me.
Grow up!
I have never seen a post from any representative of HTC that says it is not cheating. I personally consider it cheating as I think most would.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
You better watch yourself there tough guy. This has all been in good fun so far. But now you are accusing me of cheating, and that I will not tolerate. You better cool it, or there's going to be problems...
Zazen
P.S. It's fairly common knowledge my wife, Jessica's account is "Lexus". By the way we only own one computer.
Voss was one of the best MA players this game ever saw.
He couldt fight his way out of a wet paper sack in the DA tho.
To me he was a cherry picking ack hugging runny bunny that talked a lot and backed it up little. Oh and a wuss.
(Runny bunny trademark from Storch)
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Voss was one of the best MA players this game ever saw.
He couldt fight his way out of a wet paper sack in the DA tho.
To me he was a cherry picking ack hugging runny bunny that talked a lot and backed it up little. Oh and a wuss.
(Runny bunny trademark from Storch)
Possibly, I have no idea, I never had an encounter with him in the MA. But, if you are correct, it is probably an extreme example of what I pointed out earlier about the DA. Todd agreed that the DA type engagements only bring into play a very small subset of skills required to be successfull in the MA.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Possibly, I have no idea, I never had an encounter with him in the MA. But, if you are correct, it is probably an extreme example of what I pointed out earlier about the DA. Todd agreed that the DA type engagements only bring into play a very small subset of skills required to be successfull in the MA.
Zazen
But you still dont get it that just because folks dont fly to keep a
high KD ratio or to even survive the MA that its not easy to do
you place all your skills on having a good rank in the DA
whereas I wasnt here 5 months and had ranks in the low 20s
Anyone can play like that its just way boring to a lot of folks and it no indication of skill level.
To be good in ma.... Take a few bombs and hit a city...
Make a goon run or 2. Take a PT boat and use the rockets on a town. Go to attack mode take ordinance to a city.... rtb, rearm do it again
Up a f6 on a cv thats being attacked, fly around in ack, get mega kills. Get a fast fighter... cherry pick and run go land do it some more....
Way too easy and mega boring to lots of folks.
Dont do this and just play for fun... you are labled as a lesser pilot.
BTW when piloting REALLY matters? When you take your family up.
Guess what? I never lost a plane yet.....
Now on another note, I checked out lexus and I believe its your shades account, I was wrong about your padding with that account. But its a shame that the rank means so much to your ego that u need 2 accounts to fly like a dweeb, nikis and f6s and
fun fights.....
I think you should learn to fight square then you will gain respect , regardless of your score.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
But you still dont get it that just because folks dont fly to keep a
high KD ratio or to even survive the MA that its not easy to do
you place all your skills on having a good rank in the DA
whereas I wasnt here 5 months and had ranks in the low 20s
Anyone can play like that its just way boring to a lot of folks and it no indication of skill level.
To be good in ma.... Take a few bombs and hit a city...
Make a goon run or 2. Take a PT boat and use the rockets on a town. Go to attack mode take ordinance to a city.... rtb, rearm do it again
Up a f6 on a cv thats being attacked, fly around in ack, get mega kills. Get a fast fighter... cherry pick and run go land do it some more....
Way too easy and mega boring to lots of folks.
Dont do this and just play for fun... you are labled as a lesser pilot.
BTW when piloting REALLY matters? When you take your family up.
Guess what? I never lost a plane yet.....
Now on another note, I checked out lexus and I believe its your shades account, I was wrong about your padding with that account. But its a shame that the rank means so much to your ego that u need 2 accounts to fly like a dweeb, nikis and f6s and
fun fights.....
I think you should learn to fight square then you will gain respect , regardless of your score.
You're confusing Fighter Rank with the other ranks, I have not discussed combined overall rank in this thread. I agree that success in the other 3 ranks are just a matter of accomplishing a few annoying 'chores' each camp. Fighter rank, however, is a different ball of wax entirely. Fighter Rank requires alot of diverse skills (flying ability, gunnery, SA, TA) and either some patience/discipline or alot of free-time or a combination of both.
I run down the list of the Top 100 Fighter pilots each camp, I have never once seen a pilot on that list I considered a weak or inept pilot. All of the pilots I knew on that list from some first-hand experience (either fought with them or against them on more than one occassion) I considered very strong sticks. So, fighter rank must mean 'something'.
Also, as I've said about 5 times now, there are alot of wonderfull examples of pilots in the MA, who quite obviously are not at all concerned with their fighter rank, but who consistantly rank in the Top 100 in Fighter. Flying for K/D really isn't important, so long as you kill alot. Shane is the best example because he has one of the worst K/Ds in the top 100, he landed only 19 of 231 sorties last camp. But, he still finished 45th in Fighter rank. He did this, not because he was trying to fly for rank, but simply by virtue of how efficient and effective a killer he is.
This is why I have a problem with people who say those who rank highly in fighter must be score potatos/dweebs/rank potatos/KD dweebs/Alt-monkeys or whatever. The simple truth is, efficient and effective killing MA pilots are going to rank highly in fighter whether they specifically try to or not.
Zazen
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.
This is why I have a problem with people who say those who rank highly in fighter must be score potatos/dweebs/rank potatos/KD dweebs/Alt-monkeys or whatever. The simple truth is, efficient and effective killing MA pilots are going to rank highly in fighter whether they specifically try to or not.
Zazen [/B][/QUOTE]
No you misunderstood my post, I am not saying you must be a dweebscorepotatoaltmonk to be a good fighter rank.
I am saying you are a dweebscorepotatoaltmonk. your alter ego to play for fun is an indication of just that along with your
score complex.
Like I said, learn to fight square then you will be respected.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
.
This is why I have a problem with people who say those who rank highly in fighter must be score potatos/dweebs/rank potatos/KD dweebs/Alt-monkeys or whatever. The simple truth is, efficient and effective killing MA pilots are going to rank highly in fighter whether they specifically try to or not.
Zazen
No you misunderstood my post, I am not saying you must be a dweebscorepotatoaltmonk to be a good fighter rank.
I am saying you are a dweebscorepotatoaltmonk. your alter ego to play for fun is an indication of just that along with your
score complex.
Like I said, learn to fight square then you will be respected. [/B][/QUOTE]
I could give a flying chunk of rat poontang if I am respected or not, personally. I fly for fun all the time, flying 'realistically' is fun, as flying 'recklessly' is fun sometimes. Why you think we must all be pigeon-holed into one category or another is beyond me. Why you think purposefully flying at a disadvantage is somehow more 'noble' is beyond me. Like most here I only have X number of free hours a month to play AH. I find flying realistically garners me, personally, more of that intangible 'fun factor' per unit time than any other mode of approaching the game.
Todd corrected me in a thread 6 months or so ago about super-imposing my idea of fun upon anyone else. Don't assume just because you, some, many people don't find a particular mode of playing fun that I do not. Don't think that I am somehow masochistically self-inflicting some kind of cruel torture upon myself for the sake of a pretty rank. The fighter rank is just a natural by-product of me having fun in the game, they are not seperate and distinct.
It is because of this, alot of people including myself, can easily attain a high fighter rank even playing recklessly. That is also fun to a point. Some find it the most fun. I personally make a point to fly recklessly sometimes just to keep my knife-fighting edge sharp. I do not do it because I am escaping some self-made prison of 'realistic' flying. I do it so on those occassions I find myself engaging at a disadvantage or in a 1 vs. 1 that is a bad plane match-up, I have a greater chance for success and survival.
Zazen
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I could give a flying chunk of rat poontang if I am respected or not, personally.
I like donuts.
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Well, I started flying combat sims about 3 years ago....Warbirds offline against AI aircraft. All I learned was how to use basic controls.
Had a brief, two-week fling with MSCFSII. Didn't like the miniature arenas and the difficult to use set-up and the fact that it was almost impossible to tell when you were hitting the target.
Then one day while surfing the net for information on ACM I ran across a reference to AH. Downloaded it immediately. After only two days to learn the basic set-up I was hooked. Flew H2H for nearly a year before forking over actualy money to participate in the ma.
Joined CVPoppie's squad the 169th SSF flying for the rooks. Had flown with him in h2h. Seldom paid attention to numbers at that time.
Anyways, I remember one day in particular on the pizza map. I noticed that one base after the other was falling on the west coast to rook attack. Decided to join up with the flight to lend some assistance.
What a revelation that was! There were about a dozen guys, undoubtedly from one of the top squads, capturing bases like a well-oiled machine. They had it down to a science. Each pilot had a specific task, whether ack suppression, cap, or town reduction. They even had dedicated goon pilots, who usually took off about 5 minutes behind the main strike.
I didn't think to time these operations, but the total average time it took them to capture a base could not have been more than 10 to 12 minutes. Of course some of these bases were lightly defended, but the nme country never put up a determined effort to defend them. There were never more than 6 nme players in defense at any one time
That was the best example of organization and teamwork that I have witnessed in the two years I have been playing AH.
Why was this possible? The argument that they were hording doesn't hold water. Six defending nme pilots should have been able to disrupt such a small-scale attack.
The answer, I believe, likes in a point made in another thread. Rook pilots, as a group, tend to be older than the pilots of the other two countries. As proof, I offer the following facts/obeservations.
Rook numbers tend to be at their highest starting in the afternoon and reach a peak about 8:00p.m. and then begin to taper off slightly. The pilots that log on at these times are, I believe, working class stiffs who have had their dinner and are trying to relax with a couple of hours of flight-sim gaming.
Secondly, I believe that people of like ages tend to gravitate together in the same country. The older pilots (I am 50) tend to be put off by a lot of the smack talk and juvenile style game play of the younger pilots. I don't mean that as a slam against anyone that's just the way it is.
Thirdly, older pilots tend to be more into air combat history and tactics and are more likely to work together to achieve a goal. Younger players are game oriented and want action immediately, while the older pilots don't mind taking the time to set things up.
So, in conclusion, I think these facts are reflected, at least somewhat, in the game play and k/d ratios of each country; Rooks have a larger group of older and more experienced pilots, while the Bish have more of the younger group, and the Knights lie somewhere in between. Greater numbers may play some part in the overall results, and I am guilty of complaining about the numbers disparity at times myself. But the daytime numbers are usually fairly even, while the Rooks have more substantial numbers at night and on the weekends, which reinforces my belief that they are older, working stiffs.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Well, I started flying combat sims about 3 years ago....Warbirds offline against AI aircraft. All I learned was how to use basic controls.
Had a brief, two-week fling with MSCFSII. Didn't like the miniature arenas and the difficult to use set-up and the fact that it was almost impossible to tell when you were hitting the target.
Then one day while surfing the net for information on ACM I ran across a reference to AH. Downloaded it immediately. After only two days to learn the basic set-up I was hooked. Flew H2H for nearly a year before forking over actualy money to participate in the ma.
Joined CVPoppie's squad the 169th SSF flying for the rooks. Had flown with him in h2h. Seldom paid attention to numbers at that time.
Anyways, I remember one day in particular on the pizza map. I noticed that one base after the other was falling on the west coast to rook attack. Decided to join up with the flight to lend some assistance.
What a revelation that was! There were about a dozen guys, undoubtedly from one of the top squads, capturing bases like a well-oiled machine. They had it down to a science. Each pilot had a specific task, whether ack suppression, cap, or town reduction. They even had dedicated goon pilots, who usually took off about 5 minutes behind the main strike.
I didn't think to time these operations, but the total average time it took them to capture a base could not have been more than 10 to 12 minutes. Of course some of these bases were lightly defended, but the nme country never put up a determined effort to defend them. There were never more than 6 nme players in defense at any one time
That was the best example of organization and teamwork that I have witnessed in the two years I have been playing AH.
Why was this possible? The argument that they were hording doesn't hold water. Six defending nme pilots should have been able to disrupt such a small-scale attack.
The answer, I believe, likes in a point made in another thread. Rook pilots, as a group, tend to be older than the pilots of the other two countries. As proof, I offer the following facts/obeservations.
Rook numbers tend to be at their highest starting in the afternoon and reach a peak about 8:00p.m. and then begin to taper off slightly. The pilots that log on at these times are, I believe, working class stiffs who have had their dinner and are trying to relax with a couple of hours of flight-sim gaming.
Secondly, I believe that people of like ages tend to gravitate together in the same country. The older pilots (I am 50) tend to be put off by a lot of the smack talk and juvenile style game play of the younger pilots. I don't mean that as a slam against anyone that's just the way it is.
Thirdly, older pilots tend to be more into air combat history and tactics and are more likely to work together to achieve a goal. Younger players are game oriented and want action immediately, while the older pilots don't mind taking the time to set things up.
So, in conclusion, I think these facts are reflected, at least somewhat, in the game play and k/d ratios of each country; Rooks have a larger group of older and more experienced pilots, while the Bish have more of the younger group, and the Knights lie somewhere in between. Greater numbers may play some part in the overall results, and I am guilty of complaining about the numbers disparity at times myself. But the daytime numbers are usually fairly even, while the Rooks have more substantial numbers at night and on the weekends, which reinforces my belief that they are older, working stiffs.
Very interesting observations!
Zazen
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Thanks Zazen. I do try.
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First......it's a game.
Second...in any endeavor usually more means better..specially games.
Third....a great deal of Bish...myself and squadmates really don't look at Stats. Wherever that rank lands so be it. I just looked at mine and some of my squadmates.
Over half of squad was over 3.0 k/d......most of our squad flies at different times...usually not more then 3 of us on at any one time.
I rarely get in a vehicle.....and rarely get in a bomber. Most of my squadmates are the same...so ranking per capita will prolly be skewed.
Also....if you check our squad roster you'll find quite a few of us that have been here for over 4 years. During Beta or shortly afterwards. Some of the names are familiar to most. Shamus, Vati, Rob53....Bullzeye, MrWulf, EDO and so forth. Good sticks who just like to have fun and play. I generally fly alone looking for a good fight....hopefully a 1 on 1. Since our online numbers are low winging is infrequent...specially in Summer when we have better things to do. If you find myself or any of the above you'll have a fun fight no matter the outcome. You just might find yourself in our sights....and then again we in yours.
It's a game.....someones going to comeout on the shortend.
It's usually the guy with 5 Rooks on his 6 when he's trying to get the Goon :cool:
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Originally posted by mars01
It could be that the rooks have a bunch of radish safe flyers that have a horse***** K/T because they rarely engage without an advantage. I.e. You, Beetle, ... etc. This would easily explain alot.
My last complete tour was T49. Check out my K/T for that tour (attack mode). You'll see that I ranked #13 with about 17 k/h. When you've done that, no doubt you will want to somehow qualify the reliability of the k/t stat to suit your agenda. :rolleyes:
Final fighter rank was #91 which I achieved without flying any of the advantage planes (P51,LA7,Spit etc).
You crow about flying at a disadvantage but then you fly LA7 and Spit9 advantage planes - indeed, these are your top two planes.
You crow about your elite T&B skills, "mixing it up on the deck"/whatever, but I have you on film setting up a B&Z pass and steaming in at more than 410mph in a F4U. Nothing wrong with that - I'd do it too, but you are guilty of actions for which you castigate others.
In short, you say one thing and you do another.
In this world of change, it's good to see that some things stay the same. Mars is one of them. :aok
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I have nothing I need to prove, I prove my mettle everytime I up a fighter in the MA. You perceive my not accepting duels from antogonistic and belligerent people as a sign of some weakness on my part. But, you have it backwards, I am not so insecure with myself that I require some sort of contrived contest to decide who is right or who is wrong in an intellectual debate. Wether I kick AKAK's prettythang or he kicks mine in a duel still doesn't answer the question of who is the more accomplished MA player.
But you have a whole lot to say without being able to back it up. I had some respect for you Zazen because you are a pretty decent guy in the sim. Some of your blathering I could do without especially when you make poor assumptions and state them as fact based on the flaky scoring system. But the fact that you can't back up you BS with a friendly little duel makes your score very suspect and everything else that comes out of your mouth. Your trying to make this some kind of personal vendetta thing so you can justify running from the challenge. It's not. What do you have to lose by squaring off against someone else in a duel? And don't give me that set a precedent BS. You staked a claim I say back it up. Until you do, you go back to the Big Mouth no substance pool. Sorry Bud it's your call.
As for Shuckins...
What a surprise Pizza Map and people taking undefended bases easily. Have you flown for any other country other than Rooks?
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LOL I knew you would get you panties in a bunch Beetle that is why I included you. Nice Bite.
As fo...You crow about your elite T&B skills, "mixing it up on the deck"/whatever, but I have you on film setting up a B&Z pass and steaming in at more than 410mph.
I never said I dont BnZ. I said BnZ doesn't take a whole lot of skills and most guys that BnZ all the time can't T&B. The guys that do both I have alot of respect for.
The problem it that on maps like Trinity and Pizza where the bases are so spread out, all one can do is BnZ because there are no furballs to be had. I am not going to fly a sector or more on the deck only to get jumped by 4 guys ack hugging.
Try again Beetle. I'm sure you have just as many films of me on the deck turning and burning. It seems you have a nice collection of my films, I think your sweet on me. ( Blushing ) lol.
My last complete tour was T49. Check out my K/T for that tour (attack mode). You'll see that I ranked #13 with about 17 k/h. When you've done that, no doubt you will want to somehow qualify the reliability of the k/t stat to suit your agenda.
Final fighter rank was #91 which I achieved without flying any of the advantage planes (P51,LA7,Spit etc).
Beetle I could care less about your score, it means nothing. When I run into you or even Zazen for that matter where the fights are then maybe my opinion will change until then keep score whoring with the rest of them I'd rather keep socking it out where the actions is. :aok
As for you crying about plane selection, it means nothing and if you had a clue you would realize my main TnB is a spit V or FM2. When I BnZ I'll do it in a Hog, 51 or A5. Smoooch:lol
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Originally posted by mars01
if you had a clue you would realize my main TnB is a spit V or FM2. When I BnZ I'll do it in a Hog, 51 or A5. Smoooch:lol
Oh I know - I noticed all the EasyMode™ planes at the top of your list - P51, LA7, Spit9, N1K - LOL! :lol
What is a furball? 5v5 or 50v50? The 5v5s are fine, but those swarm jobs are not my cup of tea. I like the larger maps - particularly Pizza & Trinity. I do not like the small maps at all, and if that is all we had, I would cancel my account.
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DA is a fun tool and i have learned a lot from it and some of it carries on into the MA except the SA aspect.
Oh btw look into my stats....they are horrible because i have lost a lot of interest in staying alive and in the game mostly....but i'll still wax your arse given a chance :D
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Oh btw look into my stats....they are horrible because i have lost a lot of interest in staying alive and in the game mostly....but i'll still wax your arse given a chance
You have truely been BK assimilated ... :D
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What is a furball? 5v5 or 50v50? The 5v5s are fine, but those swarm jobs are not my cup of tea. I like the larger maps - particularly Pizza & Trinity. I do not like the small maps at all, and if that is all we had, I would cancel my account.
Beetle as I said in the past you have no clue so I am not going to keep repeating it. Other than this time lol.
Bantering back and forth with you is like fighting with a woman. No logic, accountability and a lot of BS and spinning.
So fly your so superior plane set from the protection of your pearch and have fun. I could care less. On the other hand if you want to go to the DA and have some fun just ask.:aok
And because you are a weiner...
My Stats this tour
Model type Kills In
FM2 27
Spitfire V 13
P-51D 9
Ostwind 6
F4U-1D 3
Last tour
Model type Kills In
Spitfire V 228
P-51D 33
F6F-5 21
La-7 20
P-47D-11 16
F4U-1D 14
SeaFire 14
Fw 190A-5 13
Ostwind 9
F4U-1C 4
Yak-9U 4
PT Boat 3
Ship Gunner 2
Me 163B 1
Tour befour that
Spitfire V 84
F4U-1D 35
SeaFire 35
La-7 34
FM2 17
Fw 190A-5 15
F4U-1C 9
N1K2 7
Ostwind 5
Ship Gunner 4
P-51B 4
F6F-5 2
P-40E 2
F4U-1 2
No wonder the BS meeter goes crazy when you come along!!!!
:lol
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Originally posted by mars01
So fly your so superior plane set from the protection of your pearch and have fun.
You're the one who relies on EasyMode/runners LA7/Spit9.
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Originally posted by beet1e
You're the one who relies on EasyMode/runners LA7/Spit9.
Hmmm ... I look at his numbers and don't see a Spit IX in there ... Spit V ... yes ... or am I blind.
Also, your reaching quite a bit to say that he "relies" on these planes each tour. It looks to me that he flys more of the planeset than most do. Hardly the indication of one relying on any one plane to be effective in. Looks like he is pretty effective in all of them.
Albeit, most of his kills are what he stole from me !!! :rofl
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But Slap your not a woman so its easier for you to see the truth.:D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Hmmm ... I look at his numbers and don't see a Spit IX in there ... Spit V ... yes ... or am I blind.
You are blind. Click here (http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php?player=mars01&sortby=killsin_sort) and you can see that Mars01's top two career planes are 1)LA7, 2)Spit9.
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Sure Beelt I have been flying for three years now.
I have never said I didn't fly those planes ever.
But if you were really looking for the truth rather than just playing dumbprettythang you would see it.
Nice try tho. :aok Since you have such a hang up, why don't you go through my tour stats and find the last time I flew a spit 9 this year.
If you had half a brain and you look beyond your BS you'll see the planes in 3rd 4th etc and you will see I am right.
Then do me a favor and fint the stats where the last time I killed more than 50 planes in an La7 was.
Then you'll get to the truth other wise pi$$ Off:D
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Originally posted by beet1e
You are blind. Click here (http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php?player=mars01&sortby=killsin_sort) and you can see that Mars01's top two career planes are 1)LA7, 2)Spit9.
Well ... taking a peek at mine
1) Spit V
2) La-7
maybe that is why I fart in the direction of La-7s when I encounter them rather than cry ... UBER/EASYMODE !!!
I know what they can and can't do.
That is why I can never understand why those who cry about the planes the bug them the most, are also the ones that boastfully say ... "I have never flown that plane and am damn proud of it" ... complete bollocks !!!
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Thanks for the thread guys, a fun read. Makes my day at work go by quicker. Good debates and counters in this one.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Oh I know - I noticed all the EasyMode™ planes at the top of your list - P51, LA7, Spit9, N1K - LOL! :lol
I object to you using that term EasyMode to describe those four planes. The term EasyMode is only to be used in reference to the P-38, as it's the true EasyMode plane in AH2. Do not make this mistake again please.
ack-ack