Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Misfit on August 02, 2004, 05:51:12 PM
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Someone want to explain to me how the ENY on the A8 went down to 25 but yet the P47s are running at 30, 35, and 40?
To me the A8 and P47s are pretty much even planes, so why is the A8 being changed?
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In the Developement announcement Pyro said:
When the new tour begins, look for some changes in plane ratings. ENY values will be updated and a few rarely used perk planes will probably see a price reduction.[/b]
Sounds like they started tweeking eh? I would guess the F4U-4, Spit 14, and Ta152 will all be lower cost.
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Originally posted by Misfit
Someone want to explain to me how the ENY on the A8 went down to 25 but yet the P47s are running at 30, 35, and 40?
To me the A8 and P47s are pretty much even planes, so why is the A8 being changed?
Everyone is going to have their subjective opinion of the comparative value of one plane to another. I imagine the values they come up with will be based on the mass of 3 years of data on them that has been accumulating. It's not important what we think a plane should be. The values are being changed to create a MA environment that more closely resembles HiTech's ideal. Just trust his judgement and keep the pissin' and moanin' to a dull roar. ;)
Zazen
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C-hog was 10, 152 was 17, F4U4 was 32,
Spit14 was 34 just afew minutes ago, of course these will fluctuate greatly according to MA vagaries. I didn't pay much attention to all of them but the Tempest was 44 and even the 262 was only 160-something.
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Originally posted by Misfit
To me the A8 and P47s are pretty much even planes
Really?
My A8 cant load 10 rockets + 2000lb + 1 DT. BTW, F8 (the always forgotten plane) cant neither. And none of these cant choose between different ammo quantities, P47 can.
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Originally posted by GODO
Really?
My A8 cant load 10 rockets + 2000lb + 1 DT. BTW, F8 (the always forgotten plane) cant neither. And none of these cant choose between different ammo quantities, P47 can.
None of that (save maybe the ammo) affects ENY values. That is all OBJ value data.
What he was saying is that the P-47 and Fw190A-8 are fairly matched opponents in air-to-air combat.
I think he is a little off and the P-47s hold a bit of an edge. But then I think the Fw190A-8 is a death trap and would take an Fw190A-5 over it for nearly every task.
MA usage also affects ENY valuses, though I have trouble imagining that the P-47D-40 sees less use than the Fw190A-8.
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See I knew flying the 190 A-8 would throw the Eny value of my Anton downward :D
Apparently the flying parachuting midgets did get to the HTC offices and knawed Pyro's ankles . :D
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thats what happens when you have n00bs taking it to vulch feilds for perks because they hear you can get more points for 2 kills in an A8 than 10 in a P51.
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Sounds like they started tweeking eh? I would guess the F4U-4, Spit 14, and Ta152 will all be lower cost. [/B]
I certainly hope not
Dont we ALREADY see too many spits?
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Originally posted by Grits
Sounds like they started tweeking eh? I would guess the F4U-4, Spit 14, and Ta152 will all be lower cost.
F4u4-35 perks
Spit14-45 perks
Ta152-20 perks
Tempest-50 perks :aok
262-200
F4u1-C-10 perks
Me163-50 perks
Ar234-60 perks
Zazen
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Incidentally, although the Lgay7 was not perked, much to my personal chagrin. It's ENY value was lowered to 5 the same as the 262, basically an admission that is a perk quality plane. Comforting to know that exclusive Lgay7 drivers will only earn enough perks to fly a 262 once every 83,000 years or 4 million kills whichever comes first. :aok
Zazen
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I certainly hope not
Dont we ALREADY see too many spits?
thats not the point how many Spit14s do you see?
its all spit9s spit5s and for cvs its seafires
but almost nobody flys spit14s
i realy like the LA7 eny 5 now
and the P40S!!!! P40E 45 ENY P40B 60ENY!
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If the watermelon aint broke why fix it?
The A8 see's less action in MA then A5 (i believe anyways, not gonna go dig up the numbers).
I Agree Godo about loadouts totally.
Whine, no this is not a whine, it was a question.
As for me asking it, i realize now it was a mistake.
Also do you really think the average La7 pilot cares about perks?
I mean flying a 262 is more work then flying a La7.:p
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Some one remind me how eny and obj values work..............
I agree with misfit above........... I have several thousand fighter perks and I see no attraction to many of the perked rides.
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Originally posted by Misfit
Also do you really think the average La7 pilot cares about perks?
:D The average La7 pilot thinks perks is a method by which to brew coffee.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
It's ENY value was lowered to 5 the same as the 262,
Zazen
So one "earns" as many perkies shooting down an La7 as one does shooting down a 262?
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Originally posted by Tilt
So one "earns" as many perkies shooting down an La7 as one does shooting down a 262?
Close but backwards, one earns as few points killing with an La7 as one does killing with a 262.
Misfit, regarding the "aint broke" thing...I beleive as many others do that it wasn't broken as in completely wrong but id did need some tweaking.
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CC
Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Close but backwards, one earns as few points killing with an La7 as one does killing with a 262.
Misfit, regarding the "aint broke" thing...I beleive as many others do that it wasn't broken as in completely wrong but id did need some tweaking.
Actually he is correct, here is the perk formula cut n' pasted from the help file....
"With the values listed above, if you are flying the P-51D (ENY value of 18) and you score a kill on a Panzer (ENY value of 15), you would receive (18/15) = 1.20 fighter perk points. "
So, in fact he was correct, we will receive exactly the same number of perks for killing an Lgay7 as we would for killing a 262. For example, say I am in Typhoon with an ENY value of 20 and kill an Lgay7 with an ENY value of 5...
I would get 20/5=4 fighter perks for that Lgay7.
Just for fun, let's now say I am in the newly adjusted P40B with an ENY value of 60 and kill an Lgay7 with its ENY value of 5.
I would get 60/5=12 fighter perks for that single Lgay7 kill! :aok That's enough for a free C-Hog with ONE Lgay7 kill! :aok
Factor these revised ENY values in with generally lower perk plane costs and well...Let's just say I'm going to get alot more trigger time in my Tempest! ;)
LGay7 hunting season is officially OPEN!!! ;)
I have always gone out of my way to kill Lgay7s just on principle, now, thanks to the re-balancing of the ENY value system I can continue to do so and be rewarded handsomely for my efforts, Thanks HTC!
Also, contrary to popular myth, the arena is just chock full of non-newbies who fly the Lgay7 religiously. Just check the statisitics of some of the Top 100 Fighter pilots last tour. A very healthy portion of them fly the majority of their fighter sorties in the Lgay7.
Zazen
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can see them queuing up on my tail now.................
............. nothing new there then
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Originally posted by GODO
Really?
Don't worry, Mandoble. Your amazing skill more than makes up for the glaring deficiencies in the 190 flight model.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Sample ENY Values:
La-7: 5
Me262A: 5
P-51D: 6
N1K2-J: 7
Spitfire Mk XIV: 7
Spitfire Mk IX: 8
F4U-1C: 10
P-38L: 15
Spitfire Mk Vb: 15
Fw190D-9: 18
Bf109G-10: 20
Typhoon Mk Ib: 20
Ki-61-I-Tei: 40
P-40B: 60
And it will make no difference at all.
As long as perk points are useless for anything over an F4U-1C and shy of an Me262 (and the occasional Me163) they will not be an incentive.
I've said it before and it remains true. Being artificially gangbanged is not a reward.
Look at the F4U-1C. It is controled by it's 12 point perk price, yet is still used because it doesn't come with a neon "Hey everybody, come kill me!!!" icon like the others do.
I simply do not understand why HiTech sees it as so important for perk planes to be hunted when most of them have very marginal performance advantages or only advantages as an overall package that are easily wiped away by simple numbers. Too many perk planes are slower than common free aircraft to make them at all desirable to fly when coupled with the fact that you know enemy in the area will recklessly try to kill you.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Sample ENY Values:
La-7: 5
Me262A: 5
P-51D: 6
N1K2-J: 7
Spitfire Mk XIV: 7
Spitfire Mk IX: 8
F4U-1C: 10
P-38L: 15
Spitfire Mk Vb: 15
Fw190D-9: 18
Bf109G-10: 20
Typhoon Mk Ib: 20
Ki-61-I-Tei: 40
P-40B: 60
And it will make no difference at all.
As long as perk points are useless for anything over an F4U-1C and shy of an Me262 (and the occasional Me163) they will not be an incentive.
I've said it before and it remains true. Being artificially gangbanged is not a reward.
Look at the F4U-1C. It is controled by it's 12 point perk price, yet is still used because it doesn't come with a neon "Hey everybody, come kill me!!!" icon like the others do.
I simply do not understand why HiTech sees it as so important for perk planes to be hunted when most of them have very marginal performance advantages or only advantages as an overall package that are easily wiped away by simple numbers. Too many perk planes are slower than common free aircraft to make them at all desirable to fly when coupled with the fact that you know enemy in the area will recklessly try to kill you.
I kind of disagree, but we'll have to wait and see how things play out to determine if my rationale is correct. I disagree on the basis of economics, perk economics. With ENY values increased for most early/mid-war planes, decreased for late-war planes and perk plane costs decreased across the board except for the overly popular C-hog and 262 something interesting will likely happen.
What I think will happen is alot of people will fly the more mediocre perk planes such as the Tempest, F4u4, and Spit14. Due to the fact most of the late-war rides have ENY values at or close to perk planes they will be the targets of choice for perk planes and the average pilot as they are worth alot of perks per kill. Compound this with the increased reward for flying early/mid-war rides and you can see that a trend will be forming. You will see alot more early/mid-war rides, alot less late-war rides and alot more mediocre perk planes. I believe HTC is thinking along these lines as well.
The gang-bang the perk plane phenomena is true to a point. But, if your average 25 on 25 furball for a base now has 5 of these mediocre perk planes involved on each side the ability for anyone to give any one perk plane an inordinate amount of attention is decreased greatly. The gang-bang phenomena occurs primarily because the mediocre perk planes are a rare sight indeed, a novelty. Killing them is a matter of pride and a badge of honor. If, however, they are a 1 in 10 sighting rather than a 1 in 100 sighting and worth no more than an Lgay7, Niki, Spit9 or P51D per kill the novelty of killing them will quickly wear off.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
Don't worry, Mandoble. Your amazing skill more than makes up for the glaring deficiencies in the 190 flight model.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Just by generalizing the ENY value modifications it appears as though more 'weight' was given to planes with better gun packages both in terms of lethality and ammo load. I think this is why the Fw190-A8 got gimped relative to comparable quality rides in all other respects.
Zazen
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Zazen,
You think by a reduction in the Spitfire Mk XIV's price from 60 to 45 is going to see a tenfold increase in use?
This is a fighter that despite being an expspensive perk plane managed a whopping 1.17 K/D ratio last tour. The N1K2-J managed a 1.18 and the La-7 a 1.28, both despite being incredibly overused by average players.
The cost is irrelevant for nearly all of us and 15 points isn't going to make a difference in any case. As it stands now I'll earn that for killing two La-7s. But I have well over 1000 perk points despite how rarely I play.
The price doesn't matter. The gangbang does.
In order for the system to work they either need to keep the perk tags and reduce the cost to about 5 points or get rid of the perk tags. As it stands they are not a reward and are therefore useless as an incentive.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Zazen,
You think by a reduction in the Spitfire Mk XIV's price from 60 to 45 is going to see a tenfold increase in use?
In order for the system to work they either need to keep the perk tags and reduce the cost to about 5 points or get rid of the perk tags. As it stands they are not a reward and are therefore useless as an incentive.
I think all perk planes that saw a reduction in price will get more trigger time. I also think that for the most part, with the exception of those that rely on the "Big 4" crutch exclusively, there will be alot more perks floating around to be spent. Between the lower costs and the 'cheaper' perks, yes I believe the general use of perk planes will increase significantly. With their increased use, will come a decrease in their being given attention disproportionate to their quality, especially since a kill on any of the "Big 4" carries the same reward as a kill on any perk plane. In fact, for example, a kill on an Lgay7 (ENY 5) is now worth more than a kill on a Tempest (ENY 7), Spit14 (ENY 8) or F4U4 (ENY 8).
Zazen
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Originally posted by Jackal1
:D The average La7 pilot thinks perks is a method by which to brew coffee.
Ahh thats good stuff :aok
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I also think that for the most part, with the exception of those that rely on the "Big 4" crutch exclusively, there will be alot more perks floating around to be spent. Between the lower costs and the 'cheaper' perks, yes I believe the general use of perk planes will increase significantly.
I don't see that at all. The people who fly the earlier was aircraft do so because they like the earlier war aircraft, not to earn perks, which as I mentioned, are not an incentive.
Frankly, I mainly use perks as instant feedback on how well I did in the last mission, weighted for aircraft types. This despite the Spitfire Mk XIV being my favorite WWII fighter.
I rarely fly the Mk XIV because it isn't fun or enjoyable to be gangbanged while flying an aircraft that has no means of escape. It isn't the fastest, it doesn't turn that well and it isn't the best climber.
In a one-on-one it almost certainly holds the advantage over it's opponent in at least one of those categories. In a five-on-one it likely holds none of them.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I don't see that at all. The people who fly the earlier was aircraft do so because they like the earlier war aircraft, not to earn perks, which as I mentioned, are not an incentive.
Frankly, I mainly use perks as instant feedback on how well I did in the last mission, weighted for aircraft types. This despite the Spitfire Mk XIV being my favorite WWII fighter.
I rarely fly the Mk XIV because it isn't fun or enjoyable to be gangbanged while flying an aircraft that has no means of escape. It isn't the fastest, it doesn't turn that well and it isn't the best climber.
In a one-on-one it almost certainly holds the advantage over it's opponent in at least one of those categories. In a five-on-one it likely holds none of them.
I think you are in error, I know many, many, many people who use the Hurricane IIc or the F4u-1 ALOT for the sole purpose of accumulating perk points for jets. Look at the score boards of alot of the 'Jet Jockey's", almost invariably they will fly the Jet and one, or a couple, early war planes with high ENY values and very little else. Try not to superimpose what 'you' tend do with what 'most' people tend to do. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean it isn't a prevalent trend in the MA.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I think you are in error, I know many, many, many people who use the Hurricane IIc or the F4u-1 ALOT for the sole purpose of accumulating perk points for jets. Look at the score boards of alot of the 'Jet Jockey's", almost invariably they will fly the Jet and one, or a couple, early war planes with high ENY values and very little else. Try not to superimpose what 'you' tend do with what 'most' people tend to do. Just because you don't do it doesn't mean it isn't a prevalent trend in the MA.
I do see that too, but I see no reason to conclude that because people are willing to put up with crappy rides for the supremely powerful Me262 that brings overwhelming advantages to the table that people are going to jump for joy because the Spit XIV has had a 25% reduction in cost.
It just isn't going to happen as the two perk planes are not remotely comparable.
Both aircraft draw a gangbang, but for the 262 that is simply a concentration of targets, for the Spitfire Mk XIV it is death. A 15 point change will not make a difference.
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Originally posted by Karnak
A 15 point change will not make a difference.
I haven't done the calculations but if you look at the revised ENY values, what we have is perk point INFLATION. In that I mean, the value of a perk point today is ALOT less than it was before the changes. The Spit14 is down to 45 perks from 60 in terms of face value but, if you factor in the perk point inflation generated by higher overall average ENY ratings across the board that Spit14 compared to pre-change costs is probably only 25 or 30 perks. The same is true for the other 'mediocre' perk planes.
Zazen
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I understand that, though I do not know if it will translate into the game.
However I still think that with the perk tags the Spitfire Mk XIV and Ta152H-1 are worth no more than 5 points, even at the infated earning rate.
Being gangbanged in an unsurvivable aircraft is simply not fun and unless the price is drastically lower not enough people will fly it to cause it to lose it's trophy aspect.
We will see who is right after a few months.
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Originally posted by Karnak
I understand that, though I do not know if it will translate into the game.
However I still think that with the perk tags the Spitfire Mk XIV and Ta152H-1 are worth no more than 5 points, even at the infated earning rate.
Being gangbanged in an unsurvivable aircraft is simply not fun and unless the price is drastically lower not enough people will fly it to cause it to lose it's trophy aspect.
We will see who is right after a few months.
I think if you were to extrapolate that cost/benifit rationale into the scenario of the past you may be correct. I think in two years of AH I have seen no more than 10 Spit14s. But, if you put that price, factoring in inflation, into the context of a MA where perk planes are relatively common on all sides the relative value of the Spit14 is higher. It is higher because getting gang-banged in the Spit14 will no longer be a foregone conclusion. Instead of being a crowd pleasing novelty act you will be a rather regular sight and treated with no more prejudice than any other late-war ride or mediocre perk plane. I agree though that only time will tell.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Karnak
...This is a fighter that despite being an expspensive perk plane managed a whopping 1.17 K/D ratio last tour....
It would be interesting to see how many 14's were carelessly lost by accidently clicking it while trying to select the 9.
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Originally posted by Furious
It would be interesting to see how many 14's were carelessly lost by accidently clicking it while trying to select the 9.
Funny you mentioned that, that is the only time I've ever flown a Spit14, not paying attention hit wrong button. Didn't realize it until I was like, "wow this sucker is fast!"....DOH! :eek: It usually happens on field defense, when you're in a hurry, bet alot of spit14's get vulched that way!
Zazen
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Spitfire Mk XIV Tour 54 Kills: 443 Deaths: 380
Not very many people used it intentionally or otherwise.
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Zazen and Karnak, I think you guys are saying about the same thing, at least close and are in some agreement. Karnak is right, the Spit14 is far from Uber, the 152 is even further. I'm glad they are cheaper now, MAYBE well see a few more of them about. I think the lowering of the ENY for the big-5 will HELP reduce their numbers some too. This adjustment will take time to settle out though. I'm waiting for the La7 drivers to land 6 kills and see they earned a point :D
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Zazen and Karnak, I think you guys are saying about the same thing, at least close and are in some agreement. Karnak is right, the Spit14 is far from Uber, the 152 is even further. I'm glad they are cheaper now, MAYBE well see a few more of them about. I think the lowering of the ENY for the big-5 will HELP reduce their numbers some too. This adjustment will take time to settle out though. I'm waiting for the La7 drivers to land 6 kills and see they earned a point :D
If there are more perk planes around due to these changes like I predict, there won't be many Lgay7 drivers landing many kills at all. Someone needs to make an Lgay7 skin with a giant Bullseye on it. Cause if you want to farm perks just hunt Lgay7s in anything! ;)
Zazen
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I think that the Spitfire Mk XIV, F4U-4 and Ta152H-1 simply do not have the performance to survive the icon they carry.
The icon is simply too much.
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No way the 190a8 should have a lower value than the Jugs. Looks to me like it was an arbitrary move ... that the a8 and F8 values were reversed.
The 190a8 is what I mostly play, and having familiarity with how it stacks up to other planes according to manuveurability and versatility, it just doesn't have the value assigned, in my opinion. It carries 1 thousand pound bomb, and has to carry at least 3/4 fuel load for barely adequate attack range.
Only players with very good gunnery and who practice discipline in how they engage stand a chance to land kills in an a8. As usual, vulching hordes are excluded, as are those using it with solid wingman and section tactics.
But what bothers me is not its deficiencies when it stacks up to other models, what bothers me is that I will earn less perks and wont have as many to burn up. Secondly, I try to fly high eny planes ... planes over 30 anyway, so 25 is getting near the border of embarrassing.
Lastly, if you want to generalize about the new values, start a general thread, this one is for 190a8 drivers to vent :)
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Originally posted by RT
No way the 190a8 should have a lower value than the Jugs. Looks to me like it was an arbitrary move ... that the a8 and F8 values were reversed.
The 190a8 is what I mostly play, and having familiarity with how it stacks up to other planes according to manuveurability and versatility, it just doesn't have the value assigned, in my opinion. It carries 1 thousand pound bomb, and has to carry at least 3/4 fuel load for barely adequate attack range.
Only players with very good gunnery and who practice discipline in how they engage stand a chance to land kills in an a8. As usual, vulching hordes are excluded, as are those using it with solid wingman and section tactics.
But what bothers me is not its deficiencies when it stacks up to other models, what bothers me is that I will earn less perks and wont have as many to burn up. Secondly, I try to fly high eny planes ... planes over 30 anyway, so 25 is getting near the border of embarrassing.
Lastly, if you want to generalize about the new values, start a general thread, this one is for 190a8 drivers to vent :)
Keep in mind ENY rating has nothing to do with ordnance loadout or its relative usefullness on attack missions, that is covered under the OBJ rating.
Zazen
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i think we will see a small more amount of perk planes but nothing big
Karnak you are right to it has alot to do with the icon 1 tour when i came back after a brake from AH i flew only the P40E and boy does everbody like the P40 icon
tho i was able to go some thing like 25 kills and 5 deaths in it forget the real number it was some thing like that.
the FW190A-8 is a good aircraft in some ways it is better then the P47D-40 and in others it cant hope to match the jug
i would call them even aircraft
last night i was low on perk points so i took a A6M2 landed a kill then took a Spit1 and landed 3
tho i feel like im the only one flying the F4U4 SPIT14 Tempest ME262 even TA152 ever month almost
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It would be interesting to see how many 14's were carelessly lost by accidently clicking it while trying to select the 9.
LOL F, I did that at a field that was being vulched... had no idea I was in the 14, just upped it thinking I was in the 9 defending the field against the horde. Somehow I managed to not get killed, landed 7 kills, saw I did it in a 14 and was like... DOH! hehe