Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hangtime on January 14, 2000, 05:45:00 PM
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(this post and new thread pulled from the tail end of the "another whine" thread)
Juzz! Thank you... I knew I'd read somewhere in my distant past about dive brakes on the Apache.. and remember also hearing that it was considered a very competent AC compared to its early war contempories. Allison power??? No turbo?? Dammo wish I had my library..
Lephturn.. yup.. I don't disagree. The F4U seemed undermodeled in previous rev's when I flew it.. hopeless climb sticks out as my biggest surprise in it. My memory is rusty but I had it mentally pegged as one of the best sustained climb performers of the war. That sure aint how it felt when I flew it two revisions ago.
In any case.. I would have prefered seeing the F4U upgraded.. (even better: the -4 with those awsome cannon released)...and yes, even give the LW AC their just due with performance adjustments closer to the Mustangs rather than seeing the Mustang made a WB's gelding.
Its franky impossible to fairly judge my preferred ride against the other AC in the sim from my seat in the "interested participants" section of the Flight Models Debating Society; (especially since I only have extensive expericence with the P51D in this sim) and I'm very uncomfortable about my statements now.. I ain't got a leg to stand on and I know it.
But; the P51D as modeled now in this revision just don't have that "feeling" that it had and I miss it. I'd rather see 100 overmodeled A8's or Doras roaring down and have that eager Version 0.45 Pony to fly against them than this gelding they gave me yesterday to fly against one Fiesler Storch.
"..thats my story; and I'm stickin to it!"
Thank you.. and I'll watch for those performance tables as they progress.
Salute!
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-14-2000).]
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<Grabs popcorn> (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Ahh.. so nice to see stang and spitfrie weenies whining and complaining how their superior aircraft has become one step closer to the human technology... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I tell you something.. I've hadnt had that feel with Fw190 or Bf109 for long time, whats so wonderful when P-51 doesnt have that something?
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Hmmm. Let's toss a log on the fire.
Awfully cold up here near Boston tonight..
Why is it that the P51-D should not be as good in Aces High (or any other WWII sim) as it had a reputation and historical precedent for being? Why do some feel the ME-109G and K series were so damn good when historically and by all acounts they were not
How could a late war 51 turn fight so well with a 109? Outdive it? Out accelerate it?
Out turn it and even by golly stand on it';s tail and stall AFTER the 109 stalls??
Wait!
Now let's not start hitting the books, ruffle the pages of historical exageration and begin rattling off numbers, figures, one off model examples....
Let start with the story telling. Why don't we try and let the vets tell us how it really was.
I'll start.
http://www.cebudanderson.com./ch1.htm (http://www.cebudanderson.com./ch1.htm)
--Westy
(And I still want my P-47-M so I can have some 190D9 and TA-152 hors d’oeuvres!!)
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To everybody:
I wanna see numbers. Lots of talk and no hard data.
P.S. Remember that when evalutating the fidelity of a simulation, the benchmark is real life, not other sims or the previous versions of this sim.
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whoa! Hold on now... before the damn numbers and and heartrates start crankin up; lemme try and put a handle on this particular AC modeling discussion before it heats up into yet another inconclusive furball of annoyed egos.
1. I am of the opinion that of the AC currently presented in this sim the P51D is positioned at the top of the energy fighter food chain. I am also of the opinion that this exalted position for this AC is correct; from a historical perspective.
2. Since this AC is obviously a benchmark; all other AC performace characteristics are understandably compared to this one.
3. I have in a previous post indicated that my impression of this current revision of this particular AC is that it has been subtly unenhanced by a small degree; and that I am in NOT the best position to evaluate what other changes where made in the other AC to further close the performance gap between the 'benchmark' plane and the other AC in the sim.
4. I stated that I liked the 'feel' of the previous revisions P51; and having reduced the energy characteristics makes this oustanding AC a somewhat lesser creature than it was. At the immense risk of falling on my face here; I spoke up and said so. Even now; some 60 sorties in on the new plane; I am not saying it has lost its standing as top dog on the E fighter food chain; I'm saying it's not as crisp and competent as it was.
5. In a nutshell; the V.45 P51D was an oustanding plane. My point was I would have much preferred the other AC saw similar enhancements to bring them in line with the PREVIOUS benchmark; not detuning the Mustang (and hence potentialy the sim as a whole) to a lesser level.
6. This is a superb sim.. head and shoulders above the others of the genere. I'd hate to see the oustanding benchmark (and hence the overall performance of all the AC) shifted further in the direction that 'detuning' the benchmark will take it. Pyro; please gimme back the version 0.45 P51! Use THAT plane as the benchmark!
Hang (climbs off soapbox)
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-14-2000).]
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Westy,
Historical exaggeration? lol
1. There was no LW after D-day.
2. The LW that P-51's did see, were 'below', outnumbered and/or were concentrating on the bombers!
3. Any LW that the P-51's shot up after D-day were inexperienced pilots who mostly ran away at first contact, if possible.
4. AH is based on physics and physics shows that a P-51D with a full tank of fuel CAN'T do all those things you say it could do against it's LW counterparts.
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Hangtime:
"My point was I would have much preferred the other AC saw similar enhancements to bring them in line with the PREVIOUS benchmark; not detuning the Mustang (and hence potentialy the sim as a whole) to a lesser level."
I disagree. The sim should be tuned to match the performance of the REAL AIRCRAFT. The performance of other aircraft in the sim is irrelevant. So is complaining by users that is not supported by engineering data. Demonstrate that the 0.46 Mustang underperforms the real item, and you've got a case. Otherwise phhhhhhhht. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Westy:
It's all about the numbers.
You can't do flight models from old-timers' stories and combat results. Even if there was some way to convert combat results into simulation parameters, combat results have more to do with numbers, training, tactics, and the strategic situation than the performance of the aircraft in combat.
If you want to build a flight model, you need to get flight test data and measurements of physical properties of the aircraft, then build some sound physical models that can approximate the real behavior given the physical properties.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-15-2000).]
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V.45 mustang.. I doubt P-51s did climb better than spitfire IX or 109G10...
It did climb nicely over readings in the climb gauge.. my guess goes around 4500-4700fpm with WEP on, even without WEP gauge was out of readings...
So go figure.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(0 to 15k climb...)
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Historical exaggeration? lol
1. There was no LW after D-day.
2. The LW that P-51's did see, were 'below', outnumbered and/or were concentrating on the bombers!
3. Any LW that the P-51's shot up after D-day were inexperienced pilots who mostly ran away at first contact, if possible.
4. AH is based on physics and physics shows that a P-51D with a full tank of fuel CAN'T do all those things you say it could do against it's LW counterparts.
I believe this to be, "For the Most Part", true. I am not trying to "Flame" the post, just taking advantage of some quoted text. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Therefore, can one really say?
1) The P-51D was superior to LW planes at the time
2) The LW planes at the time were actually superior to the P-51D
(When it could be talk of actually how well, one man killed another (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) )
Maybe I could say that no one really knows how they might have stacked up on equal terms. If I tried to say, it would only be a good guess at best.
IMO this game needs "Play Balance" as much as it needs "Absolute Accuracy".
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-15-2000).]
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Took up several rides last night and the 51 stuck out as a crisp ride. Went up for a few minutes earlier today and it was sluggish and unresponsive in comparrison!
Its just me I think......
Yeager
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You mean they sent that one back to Roswell. I am beside myself with dispair.
I can fly this one without feeling like im cheating.
Just another yank TT.
[This message has been edited by TT (edited 01-15-2000).]
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Yup. Shipped back to Roswell. on a truck.
It's still beta.. and I hope HT and Pyro spend a bunch of time in it in the upcomming week or so.
We can trot out and compare in minute detail all mfg's data; test data; objective and subjective comparisons, war stories and the PX laundry lists ad naseaum till HT's sheep come home.
The final fact is it's HT and Pyro's expertiese and experience that will weigh heaviest in the comparitive tone of the flight models. They've got a heluva lot more experince at constructing WWII Air Combat Simulations than I do.. or anybody else I know.
I'm not questioning the numbers. If you wanna question the numbers; ask Pyro to trot em out and I suppose if he's disposed to do so he will. FACT: the numbers wont sell me on this sim or flight model.. how it feels to me will.
Yes; it's a playabilty issue for me, balanced against historical credibilty, just as it is for all of you.. and as others have pointed out previously all the rest is just noise.
Since Pyro has the relative performance numbers.. the buck stops there. Just like all the other folks here that have flown AW or WB; we have certain expectations based on previous experience and over the past months have come to conclusions regarding relative merits.
True statement: If the benchmark AC is a dog; this will impact my assesment of the sim.
That is all.
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Hangtime:
I guess it's all priorities. I just want the sim planes to fly as much like the real ones as possible. That's what distinguishes AH and WB from lesser competitors.
If any balancing needs to be done, it can be done by selecting which planes are used, not by artificially derating or uprating the performance of planes.
E.g. by accurately modeling the Me 109G-10 instead of the more common but sluggish Me 109G-6, Messerschmitt guys get a fighting chance.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 01-15-2000).]
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I agree with Funked when it comes to FMs. Please make them as accurate as possible.
Game balance should be established by plane choice, not by tweaking FMs.
As for historical record of a certain plane, AH is different than WW2 in too many aspects. Otherwise we might start hearing complaints of type: “…but 109 made more air-to-air kills than any other plane in history…”, etc. And while this might be true, it is mostly due to historical situation, not because of its flight characteristics. Same with any other plane.
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Wait one folks,
"historical accuracy"? You mean like taking off and finding out that your carb de-ice is broke, so you can't go over 10k? Or maybe that last 8g turn threw the links in the gun boxes over, and your guns jam? Chart comparisons are meaningless except as checks for technical fidelity, a lot of different factors apply in real life that aren't on any chart, I always hear this thread about "It won the war, so it has to be the better plane" by that standred, one would have to say that US infantry was superior to Wehrmacht infantry, The sherman tank was superior to the Panther, etc, etc. You
see where I'm going? Now don't get me wrong,
I'm not say the 51 should be undermodeled or something, I just say like Hang, that if the 190 is flown by a competent pilot co-alt and E then you should not have a "special" advantage just because you're in a pony, it was good, but not that good.
(covering myself in beer so flames produce sweet smell) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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let's have Spit XIV ( that's 14 for those of you who don't know Roman numberals (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) and 109K-4 got waffels. That will stop the runstang and resolve any of the "best fighter of WWII" calls (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://www.raf303.org/banner.gif)
Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
www.raf303.org (http://www.raf303.org)
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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The 51 D was not a super plane.
It could be :
out climbed
out accelerated
out paced
out turned
out rolled
out dived
out gunned
It's major asset was range and was probably the best long range escort of the war in terms of arena play which is more biased towards dogfighting many planes should out perform it. It should still do reasonably well in the arena as it can run away being the fastest plane at the moment. (this will change with the likes of the Mk 14, Tempest, Dora, (F4U-4 ?) )
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Hangtime sayeth:
True statement: If the benchmark AC is a dog; this will impact my assesment of the sim.
The assumption here is that the P51 is the benchmark sim, and that E fighting is the best fighting. With all due respect, Hangtime, I think perhaps your Uncle's experience and your connection to the P51 has made you a little too biased.
Ask Gatt what plane should be the benchmark.
Or Leonid.
Or Hristo.
And I'm sure you will hear three different anecdotes as powerful as yours concerning the history and performance of their particular ride. Heck, the Finns even want Brewster Buffaloes (because they were so damn modern and good (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)). This is the point to anecdotal evidence; it is too subjective upon which to build a flight model. It can be used as evidence to send the programmer in a direction, but in the end the flight models can only be made with the only true constant- real-world physics.
Intuitively something has always seemed somewhat wrong with the Mustang in AH. I have stayed out of it for that reason (for the most part). I don't say this to offend, but it is too easy to kill in it in the previous versions. Don't get me wrong, there are some very good pilots flying the mustang (and everything else) but that doesn't mean the flight model was right.
Sometimes the LW guys may irritate with the constant complaining about the relative climbs of the mustang vs. 109, but they too are right. No way the P51D climbed with the late war 109. My opinion, of course. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Numbers can and will verify that opinion, too.
There is one more point relative to game play... once an a/c's flight model has become so overwhelmingly dominate, everyone wants to fly that a/c. That is all our individual choice, but it sure makes a bland game. Still, no complaint here, so long as that particular flight model is supported by evidence (numbers). If however it cannot be supported by scientific evidence, then it should be reworked with all due haste.
In the end, we will always hear the complaining begin when someone becomes proficient in a particular a/c, only to have the flight model "tweaked". We gain an appetite for kills at a comfortable (read: what we're used to) rate. Anything to upset that balance always seems to be "wrong". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hate to go against the tide, however, the P-51D as currently modelled is more than capable flown correctly.....put simply, I do not see anything that I fly against cause any real concern for me.
This ver. holds its E better than all others...perhaps flight school is in order? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)I wish I could justify my deaths by blaming the FM....unfortunetly, I die simply because I do something stupid with my aircraft. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rude
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 01-15-2000).]
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Quote:
_____________________________ ____________
The assumption here is that the P51 is the benchmark sim, and that E fighting is the best fighting. With all due respect, Hangtime, I think perhaps your Uncle's experience and your connection to the P51 has made you a little too biased.
Ask Gatt what plane should be the benchmark.
Or Leonid.
Or Hristo.
And I'm sure you will hear three different anecdotes as powerful as yours concerning the history and performance of their particular ride. Heck, the Finns even want Brewster Buffaloes (because they were so damn modern and good ). This is the point to anecdotal evidence; it is too subjective upon which to build a flight model. It can be used as evidence to send the programmer in a direction, but in the end the flight models can only be made with the only true constant- real-world physics.
_____________________________ ________________
Excellent points.. absoulutely correct. Thank you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Over the course of the last few months I've had some 1,500 rides in the P51D; and when it's turn and climb performance were reduced to the previous revisions level (key word here: REDUCED) I was quite content. I too thought the pony was too 'hot' and knew the FM would be revised. When we got to version 0.45 the Ponys performance seemed to be about where I thought it should be.
...... climb ability significantly reduced; it certainly was not the hottest climber in the sim by any means.
........ acceleration; nope, the Pony had no edge here either. In fact; getting the pony up to speed was an excercise in paitience.
......... It in no way resembled the historicly innacurate low speed turner it was previously in this sim. Ponys should not be Zekes.
.......... top speed?? Yes; it had an edge; I expected it to have an edge. The edge was reduced; no beef here.
........... Energy retention; yup; as with speed; I expected the plane to have an edge. It was one of the notable diffrences in this AC over it's contemporaries. Laminar wing; remember? This also saw change.
In short; it was and still is my opinion that the plane presented to us as the version 0.45 Mustang had finally had it's teeth pulled and the plane was about where It should be as far as FM feel and overall performance.
The Mustang I'm flying now in Version 0.46 has been detuned again; most notably in energy retention. Too far in my opinion.
And it is just an opinion... biased; it reeks with subjective observation unsupported by numbers. As I said initialy; I know I don't have a leg to stand on.
But I'll say it again anyway... this Pony don't feel right. The Pony in the revison immediately prior to this one did.
Sadly.. its unfortunate that I spent so much time in it in the previous versions. I wonder how I'd feel about the current plane walking into the sim today; flying it for the first time. Would I find it a lackluster performer having NOT had the experience of flying the Version 0.45 Stang?
Yup. I think so.
Excellent points from all of you.. really; I do appreciate the feedback.
I understand the point of historical perspective is very much predisposed to the eye of the beholder. Yes; I'm pre-disposed to view my fav plane as the benchmark for the sim.. and my perspective is assailble from many diffrent equally jaundiced points of view.
But I have to stand on one hill or another; I choose to stand on the entirely American presumption that the P51D was the pre-eminient E fighter of the war.. and in my humble biased opinion; this revisions P51d is not in keeping with that presumption.
Salute!
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Fishu said:
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Ahh.. so nice to see stang and spitfrie weenies whining and complaining how their superior aircraft has become one step closer to the human technology
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It seems youl just plain like whining no matter what the source is, you like whining, you like listening to others whining (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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ROFLMAO.. "..a spades a spade.."
On the other hand, I'd rather see him in here griping with me... not on line whining at me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
In fairness; the LW boys have had a right to howl.. they have their points to make too, and I agree in prinicpal with them more often than not in regards to relative performance. I'd love to see their much touted fav versions of those infamous LW AC in the sim; the sooner the better.
Nice one tho. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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We all like to see our planes performing well and if they have an a-historical fault i am sure it is vexing so we want to see it fixed. There are many ways of going about it here are some :
<---puts tongue in cheek--->
1)Number crunching[b/]
Form : Poster does extensive tests on each aircraft usually to highlight a point
Result: The numbers in the sim and in the historical tests won't perfectly match due to many variables but the numbers can easily show a large abberation to the developer who will know instantly there is a FM problem so will act quickly.
Main Exponent: juzz
2)Gut feeling
Form : Start a thread talking about your feelings on the FM which will start a (hopefully constructive) debate.
Result : This way brings attention to an area of modelling which the developer may look into. If the posters gut feeling is (historically) correct the area will likely be improved if not he does not have a leg to stand on. The developer will not run of to check the FM every time they see a thread like this but they will surely check the more reasonable claims out.
Main Exponent: Hangtime
3)The Whine
Form: The poster has a pet plane/country and any wiff of a the FM not being totaly in line with their over inflated biased expectations of their beloved plane(s) they will take every oppertunity to voice this opinion loudly wheather it is correct / incorrect. If the poster has no real facts to support his/her/it's current disatisfaction with said plane they will resort to sarcastic comments about the overmodelling of other planes. If other planes don't appear overmodelled they scour notice boards looking for the merest suggestion of others that these "other" planes are undermodelled when found they will post about the whining supporters of this plane. It is required when posting about other planes the whiner uses the word dweeb at least 6 times (not including the amusing new name for the "overmodelled" plane which they have cleaverly come up with e.g. dweebstang). When talking of the undermodelling of their own plane they'll use phrases such as : artifically handicapped, persecuted, we always get a raw deal (which is why i am a great pilot). These people will turn any sniff of a FM debate into their personal crusade.
Result: *yawn*
Main Exponent Many are guilty to some degree but the award has to go to........ Fishu
<---removes tongue from cheek--->
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 01-15-2000).]
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ROFLMAO..
dammo.. when yah put it that way...
(hang looks around)
"....anybody seen my legs??"
Salute!
Hang (looking thru yellowpages for rudder pedals for the handicapped)
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...suddenly (being a frequent poster) I shift uneasily... whining eh?.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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2)Gut feeling
Form : Start a thread talking about your feelings on the FM which will start a (hopefully constructive) debate.
Result : This way brings attention to an area of modelling which the developer may look into. If the posters gut feeling is (historically) correct the area will likely be improved if not he does not have a leg to stand on. The developer will not run of to check the FM every time they see a thread like this but they will surely check the more reasonable claims out.
Main Exponent: Hangtime
Funny... I haven't seen hangtime bring anymore facts out than I have...
Of course I could go find the books from library which I have been reading and tell some *facts*.
When suddenly allie plane loses the "feeling", its suddenly a big thing and the LW planes that has lost "feeling" few times already, are just a crap.. yeah.. allies won, how can any of their weapon be under germans techonology.
If the poster has no real facts to support his/her/it's current disatisfaction with said plane they will resort to sarcastic comments about the overmodelling of other planes.
Just if you didnt know, Jmccaul, I have been reading books.
..and why do you support this whiner hangtime then?
Hes been whining nonsense also alot.
(hes so cool ta/da/yah guy.. right? kids..)
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Hang leans against his cane; watching a guy diggin furiously next to the flightline.. Hang has an amazed expression on his face; and a passerby stops and begins to watch also.
Soon; another pilot, on the way to his aircraft notices the furious digger, and he also stops to stare. Before long a small crowd of pilots gather; all of them transfixed bt the guy with the shovel tearing away at the ground.
"Who's that with the shovel?" one asks.
"One of the guys from the Axis squads, I think." comes the reply. "..seen him flyin that LW hardware.. odd duck; but a good stick they say".
"Well; just what in hell is he doin??" asks a yet another. The dirt is flying fast and furiously from the deepening hole.
Hang looks over; sighs, shakes his head; flicks his cigarette butt into the hole...
"Looks ta me like he's diggin his own grave."
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LOL Hangtime, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) that was pretty good. I`m amazed at how well everyone is getting along with each other,55 yrs after the war and the passions still burn! I`ve seen these kind of debates on AGW turn in to BBQ`s quick-been in the pit a few times myself. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) At any rate this shouldn`t become an Allied/Axis thread,we should all want every aircraft modeled as they were in real life,anything else is a mockery of the people who served and died in WW II.
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JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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Keep it going, please, funny thread (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Don't take it to hard Fishu it was a bit of a joke (which has elements of truth in)
P.S. I am not really supporting hangtime in his FM belifes just contrasting the attitudes of people who debate the FM. With training and practice i am sure Hangtime has it in him to progress to level 3 and compete with you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Don't duck your level 3 status it is hard won honour which people must earn, revel in it, hell even put
Fishu - (level 3 debater) in your singnature.
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The thing I hate the most about whining is that on occasion, a totally valid point can be hidden under so much whine that I don't pay attention to it. Then I eventually end up looking stupid because I didn't originally see the point as anything more than a whine. So don't whine, it's counter-productive.
And yes Fishu, you are the poster-boy of whiners. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
"The side with the fanciest uniforms loses."
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(Hiya Weasel! Nice flyin last night!)
Quote:
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At any rate this shouldn`t become an Allied/Axis thread,we should all want every aircraft modeled as they were in real life,anything else is a mockery of the people who served and died in WW II.
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Absolutely! Nice way to put it too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Standing here (actually sitting; my legs are missing from well deserved flack bursts earlier in this thread) trying to postulate on what 'was' during the war is very difficult.. even with the benefit of 'the numbers' the results can be entirely out of perspective.
I do recall one common thread that stands out regarding 'feeling' amongst all who ever flew a P51 during or after the war; in combat; on training missions.. or in Pylon Races for over 50 years later:
It is a remarkable plane. It gave the pilot back a feeling unlike any other aircraft he had flown; before of since. That 'feeling' is elusive to describe; defies quantification by raw numbers, cannot be boxed and shipped as a retrofit to other AC.
It was; and is, by all pilot accounts I have read, heard in person, and viewed myself from a postion in the grandstands.. a spectacular airplane, producing in virtually all pilots that flew it instant 'synergy'. (for lack of a better word) The stick forces; the feedback the plane gives; the eager feeling that comes over you as you nudge the plane closer to its limits.. all of this has been described and aknowledged by many many many exponents of the plane; on both sides of the War; during and after.
Sometimes we do have to rely on the second hand reports and comments of the 'old timers' as one put it.. after all; these are the guys that took it into combat and tested their courage, and their AC against the pilots of a country attempting to defend their homeland from destruction. By all accounts they faced a worthy opponet; dedicated; equipped with an arsenal of exceptional AC of their own. None ever said the P51 was found lacking in this mission. To a man they all felt the same way. Surely; this lends some historical creedence to the planes exhalted reputation?
I'd like to thank Westy for putting up this link earlier; and I'll put it up here again, please take the time to read it through, listen to an old man who was there..
http://www.cebudanderson.com./ch1.htm (http://www.cebudanderson.com./ch1.htm)
Bud Andersons observations are not the exception in regards to the feelings he had for the P51, amongst his peers; his obsevations were the norm. Anybody ever come across an account from a Mustang pilot in combat that varies from this one in substance?
The previous revisions (v0.45) Mustang hit me in exactly that way. It was magnificent; it was spectacular; there was was something to it's 'feel'; and it kept me up till 4:00 am and later for a week straight joyously carving big large high e turns; pushing it to the edge time and again.. I was amazed and impressed by this plane, thrilled to see a game developer had finally captured the 'essence' of this legendary fighter. No other prop sim came close to rendering this plane in that way.. the Mustang legend was finally; at LAST here; ours to enjoy.
Any wonder I bemoaned the loss? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang (level 2; and quite happy there, thank you! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-16-2000).]
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The 109? That was a dream, the non plus ultra.
Just like the F-14 of today. Of course, everyone wanted
to fly it as soon as possible. I was very proud when I converted to it.
General Lieutenant Gunther Rall, 275 aerial victories in WW2
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Yes; I agree, the 109 was a superb machine in some ways; one of the best in the LW inventory at times and with its many revisions accountably the best the LW had a various stages throught the war. Certainly a worthy match in terms of air combat for a P51.... But it ain't a P51.
Quote:
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The Primitive can also be a weapon.
Lt. General Gunther Rall
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I like Rall. Savvy pilot; great leader. The Germans had their share of skilled operators. They all said pretty much the same thing tho; when faced with superior aircraft or when fighting at a disadvantage (as often seemed to be the case):
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"If he is superior, then I would go home, for another day that is better"
Colonel Erich Hartmann
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Ahhhh.. yes; Quotes can be fun. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
However, the main point of the discussion is not LW vs USAAF; rather it's the modeling of one USAAF plane and how I felt about it's feel that sparked this thread. Wholly subjective drivel you might say; but I thought it was worth some comment.
Yes; the P51 was the principal menace to the LW; IMHO a better plane than a 109 or FW if flown well. But,it's still the pilot that makes the difference.
Quotes:
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"The quality of the box matters little. Success in air combat depends on the man who sits in it."
Manfred Von Richthofen
and:
"Only the spirt of the attack borne in a brave heart will bring success to any fighter aircraft, no matter how highly developed it might be."
Lt. General Gunther Rall
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Touche' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) !
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 01-16-2000).]
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I'm glad this didn't turn into a flame fest (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Great talks, points and counter points in here.
BTW. My favorite plane is the P-47. Just saying....
-Westy
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Call me gee-whiz, but I love reading how my Dad's buddies fought WWII. It's a son's image of his hero and that will never change.
Go ahead and whine about anything you guys want or don't want.......everyone has the option of picking his or her ride. I have flown all these planes(here), and it's usually not the planes' fault for getting you shot down. If you use Bob Shaw's rules, I think any of the planes in Aces High will get you back to your home base. I get goose bumps when I hear the Merlin engine in a Mustang at Oshkosh.....ohhhhhh so cool. So let the HTC people get finished with what they started.....isn't the tweaking of flight models usually some of the last changes to be made in beta? Thanks Westy for some good hero reading.
Thorns_Musketeer
CO Musketeer Escadrille
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If any of you ever get the chance; go to the Reno National Air Races. Its about the only place I can think of where you'll see more than one or two stangs flyin at once.
I've been around planes mosta my life.. seen F4u's, f4F's; buffs and P47's flyin. But when 3 or more Merlin Mustangs go by flat out wingtip to wingtip at 500 feet you stand up and ROAR.. I yelled my lungs out.. jumpin up and down, actin the total nut.
When I gotta hold of myself again and looked around there were 2,000 other people in the stands doin the same thing. Some 60 years old with tears runnin down their faces.
Gotta be seen to be belived. A sensation I'll never forget. Truly magnificent.
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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True, quotes can be fun, bun are not really useful for flight modeling. On another occasion Rall mentioned how good P 51 was too. But then again, he said he preferred 109 over the Dora, etc.
How about Robert Shaw's opinion on P 51 ?Didn't he say how hard it was to dogfight in one ? I also remember his words how it would depart without warning. How it would exit the turn in one direction and instantly enter the turn in another direction.
The 190 was famed for superb control harmny and feel. However, that did not make it a TnB plane.
I noticed how arena was affected by P 51 0.46 FM. The same guys who used to fight my 109 from below in P 51 did not do it in this version. They switched to Spits, Macchis and Nikis.
P.S.
The slow speed Immelmann test in 0.46 is somewhat different than before. In earlier versions p 51 could beat 109 at it. At 200 mph IAS and 15 kft. Now they are roughly the same, one swings to the left due to its torque, the other to its right due to its wing type.
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Hmmmmmmmm... don't think Robert Shaw ever mentions the P51 per se in Fighter Combat; Tactics and Manuvering, at least not in the first person. In any case, as one othe the 'young puppies', his flying was done with F4's and F14's. And the puppy was a Squid. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Doubtful he ever get behind the controls of a combat ready P51.
For a better accounting of the 'feel' of a Mustang you'd have to check the books by Yeager and Anderson. Yeager was a lead test pilot after the war, as well as an aeronautical engineer; well qualifed to comment on its abilities. Of course; during the war he was a holy terror in one, and flew quite agressivly. He considered its qualites to be exemplary in all flight envelopes. As I recall, he called it an 'honest' airplane, with few bad habits.. and very much as you say "harmonious".
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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Robert Shaw did fly P 51D, even with ours truly some months ago (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
They also did mock dogfights, if I understood it right.
Maybe HT can share some comments with us.
OK, back to the 109 vs P 51D thread.
IMO, P 51D should be better than 109G-10 in aspects of:
Range,
higher top speed at high alt,
dive,
control feel at high speeds,
cockpit visibility.
109 should outperform it in everything else.
Now it might be easy to understand why P 51 was so appreciated by USAAF in WW2. Its qualities over 109 happen to be the most appreciated qualities of a late war fighter aircraft.
TnB qualities and low speed knife fighting was long gone by then.
P 51D will never be a TnB plane, like many in arena still think and like most of them used it in the arena.
It is not even a pure E fighter. Its weight and power loading are responsible for poor E income. Its wingloading should not help it in tight turns. Only its low drag and great relative density should help it in zooms to some point. The second the zoom starts to depend on engine power is the moment P 51 should reverse, for it starts to lose against a 109 or Spit. Its wing type, a great help at high speed, should be hinderance at low speeds.
P 51D is more a BnZ plane, IMO, not an E fighter like 109 is. It can TnB or E fight other BnZ planes like 190. Against Spits and 109s it should better have an E cushion, because it might get too hot very quick.
The biggest disadvantage of P 51 in AH was overconfidence of its pilots, in my opinion.
Sorry if next lines sound like a flame, but I have to say it:
I believe the pre0.46 P 51D has spoiled Pony pilots. Now when FMs are getting in right place, it has te be very disappointing for them.
Maybe a P 38 will offer AH P51D pilots what they enjoyed until now.
Flame on (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 01-17-2000).]
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I think we all know what is about to happen next... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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For those folks who want to have an account on how an aircraft feels and who want to get somebody who deosn't have 50 years between the last time he flew it and now talk to MARK HANNA from The Old Flying Machine Co. he was flying D-FEHD the only flying 109-G10 in a mock dogfight recently and there is an excelent ariticle in the December Flight Journal magazine (heheh i'm NOT getting money for this! www.flightjournal.com (http://www.flightjournal.com) )
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Hey, Duckwing, can you...hmm...somehow...copyrig ht ;(
Anyway, what planes were in mock dogfight ? How did it go ?
At least few hints, please.
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LOL Dolomite... he ain't gonna tease me off the perch that easy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hristo, FWIW.. The p51's flyin about today are NOT combat equipped and ready AC. They have been extensivly reworked in airfame; are significantly lighter, carry nowhere as much fuel; have had the guns and ammo removed and power plants, avionics and control systems upgraded and modified to meet current standards. The fancy paint don't make it the plane of legend. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
The same will be true of that one last 109.
In additon, the reno racers are VERY advanced AC.. aside from the general apperance; todays mustangs on the race course are very diffrent than the machines those old men wrestled with 60 years ago...
Most signifiacantly todays restoration Mustangs are being flown far more gently than a steely-eyed LW kill hungry combat pilot would on his worst day after a hangover. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) A mock dogfight with one would probably be well choreographed for the ooooohs and ahhhhs of the crowd. There will be no blood draining 5 g stress the airfame turns; no 'cashing the chips', no blood on the windscreen flyin with these antiques.
On the other side of the coin; I recall reading that the P51 was a mite twitchy with full fuel loadouts; the plane at max tankage was tailheavy; and would require very close attention from the pilot during the first phase of its flight. Normally; the aft fuselage tank was burned thru first; and the plane was comfortably within normal trim ranges by the time it reached altitude.. well before crossing the coast of France on its way to the killing grounds.
Nice try tho. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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So, we'd better let designers to crunch numbers, instead of investigating who flew a lightened Pony and who did a 5g TnB in P 51 with a bad hangover (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hre`s another P-51/BF-109 story you might enjoy. -> http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffs/Hartmann.html (http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffs/Hartmann.html)
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}]
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
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nice piece of fiction that
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Get the numbers right. The rest, how it feels and such unmeasurable things, to me appear impossible to get correct accross N planes with general equations for all planes.
//fats
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LOL Juzz.. I agree. That tale smells like Hollywood.
One thing there stands out... Hartmann was an outstanding marksman. The guy was simply an amazing shot... could kill easily at twice the range of his contempraries. Early on in his carreer he was winged with a guy that was an awful shot.. and Hartmann was convinced by this guy to get closer..much closer before opening up.
It became the Hartmann trademark.. he'd get VERY close.. reportedly less than 50 yards.. and literally explode his victims from point blank range. Few ever saw him comming. That was his other trademark.. a deadly blindside attack. So maybe there's something here...
I suspect this guy may have seen Hartmann flash by on that dive to the two low stangs.. but I suspect that if it was in fact Hartmann, he would have got them both. And the ride alongside??, .. riiiiiiiiiiight. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And lastly.. If Hartmann was in fact chased by this guy, It's my opinion he would never have toyed with him.. I suspect Hartmann would have either departed instantly; or come around and stepped on this guy like a bug. Never, IMHO ever, would a pilot of his skill and caliber leave a hostile in his deep six for longer than it would take to identify the threat. He'd kill it; or vamoose.
And where was Eric's wingman? I believe I read somewhere he never lost one.. It was apoint of personal pride with him; he always brought them home. They don't make guys like this anymore.. and they made damn few of them back then. If I looked over and saw that plane.. recognized who it was; I'da certainly sh+t myself on the spot too. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As I recall; Hartmann is still with us. Wonder if he confirmed this amazing ahhhh.. uhummm ahhh.. 'story'.
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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No, Hartmann died in 1993.
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Here you go Thorns (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
More reading:
http://www.westnet.com/~ssherman/index.html#top (http://www.westnet.com/~ssherman/index.html#top)
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Thanks man!