Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on August 05, 2004, 04:53:18 PM
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He was a war protester going into vietnam...I thaught he became one afterwords.
(read to the bold text)
Vet: Officers told Kerry to leave Vietnam
Colleagues couldn't take John's behavior, attitudes anymore
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Posted: May 14, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
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© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com
Sen. John Kerry was told to leave Vietnam by three colleagues upset with his behavior and attitudes, according to a fellow swift-boat officer during the war.
Thomas Wright says the misbehavior of the presumptive Democratic presidential candidate got to the point where he no longer wanted him in his boat group. So, at Wright's request, his divisional commander assigned Kerry to another group.
Then Wright and like-minded boat officers took matters into their own hands, according to John B. Dwyer, a Vietnam veteran and military historian writing in the online magazine American Thinker.
"When he got his third Purple Heart, three of us told him to leave," Wright said, according to Dwyer. "We knew how the system worked and we didn't want him in Coastal Division 11.
"Kerry didn't manipulate the system," he continued, "we did."
Wright, who at times was officer-in-charge over Kerry, said he had occasion to observe Kerry's behavior and attitudes, and the circumstances surrounding his early departure from the war zone.
Wright noted Kerry's chosen moniker for radio communications between the boats was "Boston Strangler."
The officer said he and most other swift-boat officers had two commandments: 1. Protect the crews. 2. Win.
But working with "Boston Strangler" became problematical, he said, according to Dwyer.
"I had a lot of trouble getting him to follow orders," Wright recalled. "He had a different view of leadership and operations. Those of us with direct experience working with Kerry found him difficult and oriented toward his personal, rather than unit goals and objectives."
Wright said he "believed that overall responsibility rested squarely on the shoulders of the OIC or OTC [Officer-in-Tactical Command] in a free-fire zone. You had to be right [before opening fire]."
However, he continued, "Kerry seemed to believe there were no rules in a free-fire zone, and you were supposed to kill anyone. I didn't see it that way."
The rules were vital, Wright emphasized, because it was important the enemy "understood that swift boats were a competent, effective force that could dominate his location."
"You couldn't achieve that by indiscriminate use of weapons in free-fire zones," he said.
Wright referred to the three Purple Hearts awarded to Kerry, which allowed him to leave Vietnam for the U.S.
"No one wanted a Purple Heart because it meant we had made a mistake," he said. "We made sure our crews were recognized, but no one took pride in a Purple Heart."
More than a dozen of Kerry's superior officers and colleagues during the war held a press conference May 4 in Washington to tell Americans the senator is unfit to be commander-in-chief of the United States.
Retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffman, who headed Coastal Division 11, said Kerry was seen by colleagues as a self-serving, "loose cannon" who came only to launch a political career.
Hoffman said Kerry "arrived in country with a strong anti-Vietnam War bias and a self-serving determination to build a foundation for his political future."
"He was aggressive, but vain and prone to impulsive judgment, often with disregard to specific tactical assignments," Hoffman said. "He was a loose cannon."
Hoffman and his colleagues with the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are among more than 200 veterans who have signed a letter asking Kerry to authorize the Department of the Navy to release all of his military records, including health documents.
Think the worldnetdaily.com is a biased source. Here from some of the other officers that served with him:
http://lb.wnd.com/anyquestions.wmv
and you may ask youself why I do this....its simply. I hear these guys speak and have no doubt in my mind that they tell the truth. I have served with officers JUST LIKE John Kerry. Self serving and VERY two faced.
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NeoCon Lies!!!!!!!!
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Ameriika is the new 3rd ReiCHHHHHH
Heil Bussschhh
No war for Oil!!!
and...Hanoi Kerry was just trying to help his fellow soldiers in the POW camps when he said they were rapists and baby killers...really..he really was trying to help them!!!
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graet kik asss psot BigGayMAW ((C) Furball 2004).:D
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Hey Im an Iraq war protestor. Guess what I've decided to volunteer for boat service in Iraq. Joking.
:D
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More interesting is the blurb about the purple heart.
Perhaps Kerry didnt intentially lie to get it. Perhaps it was forced upon him to send him home?
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(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895260174.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
No. 1 on Amazon.com's best seller list. Comes out Aug 15th.
From the Inside Flap
John Kerry, War Hero? Guess again.
John O'Neill was the naval officer who took over John Kerry's swift boat in the muddy waters of Vietnam. What he learned convinced him-and convinced the majority of veterans who served directly with Kerry-that John Kerry was and is unfit for command at the lowliest rank in the Navy, let alone as commander in chief of the United States.
In this stunning new book, John O'Neill and his coauthor Dr. Jerome Corsi (an expert on the anti-Vietnam War movement) have...
Read More (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/stores/detail/-/books/0895260174/reviews/103-8926296-3359805#08952601743201)
and NO Gunther Scholze this is NOT a photoshop....its a real life book
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An what fact still looms large - oh yea,
Kerry went to Viet Nam, Bush dodged Viet Nam.
Funny how that fact just kinda looms there no matter how hard the dittoheads try to smear his service record.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
An what fact still looms large - oh yea,
Kerry went to Viet Nam, Bush dodged Viet Nam.
Funny how that fact just kinda looms there no matter how hard the dittoheads try to smear his service record.
you are a liar. bush flew fighter jets and had no choice what type. by flying a combat aircraft he had a very good chance of winding up in vn whether he wanted to or not. the unit he went to had pilots and aircraft flying in vn. do you think a lie repeated a hundred times becomes true? hes a fighter pilot what in the hell did you ever do?
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
An what fact still looms large - oh yea,
Kerry went to Viet Nam, Bush dodged Viet Nam.
Funny how that fact just kinda looms there no matter how hard the dittoheads try to smear his service record.
No one would be smearing it if he did not bring it up as a campagn issue.
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But, but, but Clinton served... right?
Piss Ant Democrats.....
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
An what fact still looms large - oh yea,
Kerry went to Viet Nam, Bush dodged Viet Nam.
Funny how that fact just kinda looms there no matter how hard the dittoheads try to smear his service record.
Kerry makes his service and his citations an issue himself. He has since he began his run for President. He is in fact running on his record as a sailor, and not on his record as a member of the legislative branch of government. This should be obvious to even the casual observer, since rather than talk about the issues and his voting record, he salutes, stands before the flag, and surrounds himself with crewmates like he's John F. Kennedy.
Now, so long as he can back up everything he claims, he's good to go. If however it comes to light that the truth is more what the other swift boat veterans say, he's put himself in that position.
Something I've noticed. I don't remember Al Gore making nearly so much of his time in country during his run against Bush. At least Gore did spend a considerable amount of time in country. Now if Bush's service was so weak, and Gore's so strong, why didn't Gore make something of it? Makes you wonder doesn't it? Is Kerry so much weaker than even Gore was that he needs an extra crutch to run against Bush?
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
An what fact still looms large - oh yea,
Kerry went to Viet Nam, Bush dodged Viet Nam.
Funny how that fact just kinda looms there no matter how hard the dittoheads try to smear his service record.
1.) Since when does ANG service = dodging?
2.) Examination of a service reacord isnt "smearing."
3.) Why are we discussing Bush again in a Kerry thread?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
1.) Since when does ANG service = dodging?
2.) Examination of a service reacord isnt "smearing."
3.) Why are we discussing Bush again in a Kerry thread?
This was orriginally a half assed troll but what the hey its a good topic of discussion anyways.
Here's the reason for NO. 3 Saur (even though I know it was a rhetorical qustion)
They cannot disput this. Kerry has serious character flaws and their only argument is that he served and bush didnt.
Well, Dole served and Clinton didn't so what's your point?
I will not stop saying I've come to recognize the type of officer Kerry was by reading about his "exploits".
I've served with the exact same type and they are dangerous....not to the enemy but to themselves and the men in their charge.
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Clarke and Woodward are just trying to flog books! Oops, wrong thread. ;)
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I posted this in another thread, but it fits in here better I think. This (http://home.comcast.net/~m.tucker46/UnfitCh3.pdf) is a chapter from the book thats coming out in a little over a week that focuses on Kerry's service in VN, written by those that served with him.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I will not stop saying I've come to recognize the type of officer Kerry was by reading about his "exploits".
I've served with the exact same type and they are dangerous....not to the enemy but to themselves and the men in their charge.
Instantly recognizable. I can think of three offhand from my own experiences... :rolleyes:
Band of Brothers did a good job with this 'type' in David Schwimmer's character.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
I posted this in another thread, but it fits in here better I think. This (http://home.comcast.net/~m.tucker46/UnfitCh3.pdf) is a chapter from the book thats coming out in a little over a week that focuses on Kerry's service in VN, written by those that served with him.
I'm not sure If I can read this book and not have my blood pressure skyrocket. I'm on page 3 and allready angry
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Always amazes me how some desperates try to label National Guardsmen as "draft dodgers". Maybe you want to tell that to all the "draft dodgers" now serving in Iraq?
Anyone serving in the National Guard or Reserves is not a draft dodger. They are members of the countries armed forces, and by joining those organizations, they knowingly accept that they very possibly will be called to fight in a war.
Now, if you go hide in England, attending Oxford, maybe the term draft dodgers might be closer to the truth.
Its a common tactic some use, though not really a good one, to try and deflect negative attention from someone like Kerry by trying to point at someone else. It doesn't change the reality of the negative information about Kerry.
I hope and pray Kerry doesn't get elected, I don't think the Demos even have a clue how bad that might turn out. He isn't a good person, he only cares about himself and his own goals and ambitions. (kinda like Hillary)
dago
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>>1.) Since when does ANG service = dodging?
I stated Bush dodged Viet Nam by joining the ANG. Do you dispute that?
There are two block votes in this country and they are roughly equal. You have a group that would vote Republican even if Bush was the anti-Christ with 666 plastered on his forehead (the dittohead/dixiecrat/big bussiness/ crown). You have a group of Democrats that would vote Kerry if he was the same aberition(the Al Sharpton/Jane Fonda/Ted Kennedy/ anything freaky crowd).
Newsflash - you - Republican party voters, Democratic party voters, are NOT deciding this election. You are dead weight - tinsil on a tree.
The people who are deciding this election cross party lines, and actually question what the candidates have done. There is no way that smearing the service record of a Viet Nam vet is going to woo the fence sitters. Yes, the ditto heads are going to eat it up - "Yea you go Rush! You tell the commie bastards! That Kerry was a coward in Viet Nam!" Same way that those who try to paint Bush as a war monger is just going to appeal to the most radical left.
So have your fun, and shoot your fodder at each other. In November, you won't matter. People voting down party lines, stretching facts so they fit into some pinhole view, are sheep. Walk down the left sheep road or walk down the right sheep road. Chance are if you can't see ANYTHING positive in both candidates, you are not the people deciding the election. You are, however, very fluffy.
John McCain called the new Republican commercial smearing Kerry's service record, "disrespectful" and "dishonest."
>>"It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me," McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press.<<
If this idiotic strategy keeps up, 3 years from now a ghost writer will be stating in "George W's memoirs" how attacking Kerry's military record was a blunder that cost the election.
Let the dittoheads keep punching that ticket, and their will be a change - bank on it.
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Tweetybird, you are so full of watermelon that I bet you are not even from 'Nawlins. Probably a Chalmette boy that spent a couple of years at Mcneese or something.
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Da Parish??? Lol, don't think so. I have 32 teeth and running water, and more wheels on my car than my house.
Actually, thats a joke. I like Chalmette and yats and all of "dat."
"on the foist day of Christmas my true love gave to me
The crawfish she caught in Arabie.."
Gota love that stuff
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I'm just jaking you. I graduated from USL and lived at Canal and Canal for 3 years. Most of my Fraternity brothers were West Bank or Chalmette boys.
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Kills me how small the world is sometimes - good to meet ya :D
I am on the West Bank btw - Algiers.
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There is no way that smearing the service record of a Viet Nam vet is going to woo the fence sitters.
Ok here you go! We are not "Smearing" anything. There is a group of sailors that served with john kerry that is saying he is not fit to be commander in chief.
This goes to character and leadership skills. If he does not have these he should not be running the nation. I think these guys have EVERY right to be heard.
John McCain called the new Republican commercial smearing Kerry's service record, "disrespectful" and "dishonest."
NEWSFLASH this is not a republican commercial. The Bush campagn did not endorce the comercial. If you actually read anything other than the words "kerry" in post you might see that....or even better watch the thing its linked allready in this thread.
This is not nearly as bad as the Moveon.org video comparing Bush to hitler. Yea the DNC is in Soros's pocket and no one cares...that scares me.
These guys are vets just like John Kerry and the public needs to know what they have to say about this canidate.
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I lived over there for a year, crossed the HPL bridge twice a day. I have always wanted to model that bridge in N scale trains. I lived off Cardinal drive in Marrero, 4 bachelors in a rented house with a pool, fresh out of school and making money. The parties were legion.
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Originally posted by anonymous
. bush flew fighter jets and had no choice what type.
Just to clear one thing up. Especially at that time, you applied to the Guard unit to be hired. IF they hired you and sent you to UPT, you pretty much knew what your "end assignment" would be UNLESS the unit changed aircraft between the time you hired in and you graduated from pilot training.
In Bush's case, he applied to an F-102 unit; he knew he'd get F-102's IF he graduated from UPT and successfully completed the F-102 RTU program.
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Originally posted by Toad
Just to clear one thing up. Especially at that time, you applied to the Guard unit to be hired. IF they hired you and sent you to UPT, you pretty much knew what your "end assignment" would be UNLESS the unit changed aircraft between the time you hired in and you graduated from pilot training.
In Bush's case, he applied to an F-102 unit; he knew he'd get F-102's IF he graduated from UPT and successfully completed the F-102 RTU program.
Does this change ANYTHING about what some sailors are saying about Kerry's service in nam? Or the fact that he is using it as a major part of his camp.?
We cant argue on his service in the senate cause HE DIDNT DO ANYTHING IN THE SENATE
Toad not that this is aimed directly at you or anything just making a point.
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Didn't say it did. Just correcting a misunderstanding.
I think the guys that denigrate Guard service........ anyone's Guard service........ are _____________________________ __ .
I left that blank because I try real hard not to do obscenities and/or personal insults on a BBS.
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>>4 bachelors in a rented house with a pool, fresh out of school and making money. The parties were legion.
<<
What difference a decade makes eh? I remember pulling 48 hours, Biloxi beach, Ship island, boats, John Cougar, Heart, The Shian Social club (ROCKED!). Now at 45, the more body parts I keep covered - the better :D - no - :(
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Went to HS in Gulfport, St. Johns, my grandparents are still there. Did you ever go to the Wolf river?
http://www.lizking.com/mardigras87.htm
We usually left town for it, but we still go about every 5 years.
Here is a panorama of ship island. When I was a kid, the water pretty much surrounded the fort. I am glad they are finally trying to save it.
http://www.lizking.com/sipan.html
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Used to water ski of Wolf River ( I think that was it).
I got a littering ticket off of Ship Island once. They said I threw a beer can in the water, but I was drinking whiskey! Used to joke about getting a littering ticket in the Gulf of Mexico. Actually, I think Wildlife and fisheries was mad because we anchored off of Ship Island with the stereo blasting :) I paid the $60 but I swear - IT WAS NOT MY BEER CAN
BTW, I dunno if you're still in Nawlins, but arround mardi gras they have some cams set up in the french quarter - go to nola.com to find them. If you're out of town, itll show you what yur missing :D
Sorry for the hijack - people - its only politics anyway :D
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Sorry for the hijack - people - its only politics anyway :D
It's ok I dont think you have a point to make anyways :D
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Well I have a few but they are not for sheep - Rep or Dem :)
November is a long ways off - I think I'll get them all in :D
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Talking about New Orleans is more fun than politics, anyway. I am in Austin, but most of my friends still live there, and I go pretty often.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>1.) Since when does ANG service = dodging?
I stated Bush dodged Viet Nam by joining the ANG. Do you dispute that?
Um... yes. Ill say it again; since when is ANG service "dodging" anything?
Are there not Guardsmen serving in Iraq right now? I bet they didnt join up to "dodge" Afghanistan.
Its just flawed logic; "I dont wanna go to Vietnam so... Im gonna go be a fighter pilot." Eh...?
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>>Um... yes. Ill say it again; since when is ANG service "dodging" anything?
Are there not Guardsmen serving in Iraq right now? I bet they didnt join up to "dodge" Afghanistan.
Its just flawed logic; "I dont wanna go to Vietnam so... Im gonna go be a fighter pilot." Eh...?<<
Its not flawed logic. Iraq is different than Viet Nam.
About 6000 National Guard troops served in Viet Nam. Want the numbers for the rest of the military? If you were in the National Guard, there was little chance you were going to Viet Nam.
Probably a better chance of going to Kent State :)
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Originally posted by Toad
Just to clear one thing up. Especially at that time, you applied to the Guard unit to be hired. IF they hired you and sent you to UPT, you pretty much knew what your "end assignment" would be UNLESS the unit changed aircraft between the time you hired in and you graduated from pilot training.
In Bush's case, he applied to an F-102 unit; he knew he'd get F-102's IF he graduated from UPT and successfully completed the F-102 RTU program.
True. Of course the unit he applied to was flying F-102's in Vietnam at the time. But ****ing morons will still **** all over the guard and call Bush a draft dodger.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Um... yes. Ill say it again; since when is ANG service "dodging" anything?
Are there not Guardsmen serving in Iraq right now? I bet they didnt join up to "dodge" Afghanistan.
Its just flawed logic; "I dont wanna go to Vietnam so... Im gonna go be a fighter pilot." Eh...?<<
Its not flawed logic. Iraq is different than Viet Nam.
About 6000 National Guard troops served in Viet Nam. Want the numbers for the rest of the military? If you were in the National Guard, there was little chance you were going to Viet Nam.
Probably a better chance of going to Kent State :)
Ok so we know how you feel about bush and the guard.....but the thread topic was about Kerry, nam, and what some people in his division thaught of him. Care to comment on that?
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
If this idiotic strategy keeps up, 3 years from now a ghost writer will be stating in "George W's memoirs" how attacking Kerry's military record was a blunder that cost the election.
What about Kerry? He started all this back in April.
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LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOO
tweety..i see u wearing your Michale Moore..ill Do anything for u T shirt..
"Big Business"...
EVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO WAR FOR OIL>!!!!!!the dittohead/dixiecrat/big bussiness/ crown
classic lines..
Hanoi Kerry..hes got friends
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>>Ok so we know how you feel about bush and the guard.....but the thread topic was about Kerry, nam, and what some people in his division thaught of him. Care to comment on that?<<
Well really you don't. I simply stated people were not joining the National Guard during the Viet Nam war because they had a burning desire to kill VCI. They were joining the National Guard and merchant marines to avoid Viet Nam. Stupid - hell no! Anyone who *wanted* to go to Nam had very deep convictions about serving their country or were friggin nuts.
I think Kerry has deep convictions about serving his country. It would take the king of all dittoheads to try and distort that fact. There are many different roads, easier roads, he could've taken to further his carreer. But you *know* this. His whole life was a plot to destroy capitalism? Or perhaps he's not a self promoting coward who just happens to have ja different idea for working toward a common goal. You also know the straglers the GOP could find to denounce him, are just playing politics, and working on their own agenda. Or perhaps they just don't value the fact someone took the very real risk of dying to serve their country the best they could. Not all veterans are smart or even civilized.
Anyone putting the carreers of those folks in the commercial under a microscope?
Because someone does well in wartime, doesn't make them a leader or even a good person. Just look at Grant or in a horendous case - Timothy McVeigh. But to disect and minimize someones duty to their country for the sake of politics is disgusting.
In summation - I think Kerry honestly served his country bravely, and knew very well he could die in Viet Nam. Does that fact alone make him a leader? - no. But that and the rest of his life in community service displays conviction. If he just wanted an easy job or power, I think he could have found an easier road. An you know what? You know this too.
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ditto GreenCloud :aok
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Its not flawed logic. Iraq is different than Viet Nam.
About 6000 National Guard troops served in Viet Nam. Want the numbers for the rest of the military? If you were in the National Guard, there was little chance you were going to Viet Nam.
Probably a better chance of going to Kent State :)
See - thats the thing though. During Vietnam there were plenty of ways to dodge the draft... signing up to fly fighters would be my first choice if that was my goal.
Sooooo... either Im going to have to admit that Bush really is the dumbest man on the planet - signing up with the military to avoid... military service - or he wasnt trying to dodge anything.
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being a life long politician, you'd thunk herman would have used his track record there to propel himself for the highest political seat in the nation
hmm, wonder why he isn't doing that?? - LOL
instead at first the tard & his group states they willl not make his military record an issue in the election, even as he runs around saluting everyone from the doorman to his audiences, then he proceeds to shove his half baked record down our throats stating it is the PRIMARY reason we should vote his lying arse into the office of the POTUS
LOL
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As if you guys wouldn't leave Bush alone if he ran around touting that he was a bigtime national guard hero during 'nam. You would be all over that like white on rice.
It just goes to show the elitist attitude that librals have. Here's a group of guys who saw kerry in action in a leadership position and saw him fail miserable at it.
They are not dittoheads....they are not RNC cronies.....they are vietnam vets just like kerry.
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Funk, give me that link you posted to the F-102 stats again please? Compared fatality rates flying 102's and other jets?
For those of you that think UPT and 102's in the Guard isn't serving, how many of you have actually soloed a supersonic jet?
You guys that make light of UPT and Guard flying simply show your ignorance, IMO. It may appear "easy" and "safe" to you but that's just because you haven't done it. I think there's very few guys wearing military aviator wings that don't have a few tales that center around how lucky they are to still be on the right side of the grass.
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I still don't think this has anything to do w/ bush or his ANG service. He's not the one running on hs record as a "war hero"
Kerry scares the hell out of me. These guys that served with him have sone VERY interesting things to say about his "awards".
We'll see what happens when "unfit for command" hits the shelves.
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Oh, one other aspect of the current Kerry/war debate.
His crewmembers generally support him.
His fellow officers and others in his boat squadron apparently do not.
Now some say well, go with the crew; what do guys that weren't in the boat know?
My take on that is both know things about him. The crew has worked with him as their leader. As such, they pretty much did what he told them when on duty and formed their opinion from that. Unless the Navy or Swift's was different, officers and enlisted didn't fraternize a lot off duty. In fact, it was probably discouraged. So, they've seen him as a leader during Swift missions.
His fellow officers, his squadron mates, were probably the guys he lived with and socialized with on a daily basis for 4 months. These are the guys that he had political discussions with, talked about life with and generally really got to know.
The officers in a squadron knows the "pecking order" too, I think. Crew commanders know where they and their crew rank on the list of who gets it right and who can't be trusted to get it right.
Just an observation.
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I will not stop saying I've come to recognize the type of officer Kerry was by reading about his "exploits". I've served with the exact same type and they are dangerous....not to the enemy but to themselves and the men in their charge.Gunsliger
You know nothing about kerry other than the propaganda you fill your head and thoughts with.. I find it appauling you would disrespect another's service if you yourself indeed served in the armed forces..
A few simple questions of Kerry's 'type' of officer.
1. How many of the men serving under Kerry died to hostile action?
2. How many men did Kerry's action save?
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
You know nothing about kerry other than the propaganda you fill your head and thoughts with..
None of us do. Not even you.
Same with Bush.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895260174.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
got to admit its a great photo of the **** - LOL
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
You know nothing about kerry other than the propaganda you fill your head and thoughts with.. I find it appauling you would disrespect another's service if you yourself indeed served in the armed forces..
A few simple questions of Kerry's 'type' of officer.
1. How many of the men serving under Kerry died to hostile action?
2. How many men did Kerry's action save?
know nothing? his perjurous testimony before the us senate is on file. he himself later recanted some of the testimony. how do you recant your own eye witness accounts? we KNOW that he lied before us senate and we KNOW that his lies were perfect for enemy use as propoganda. people like you apparently KNEW that BUSH LIED about several things until actual investigations proved that he wasnt lying. the only people so far that have been shown to KNOW NOTHING are people like you.
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I'm not putting down anyone who serves in any branch of the military. But you cant hope to disect one candidates service record and not get tit for tat back. Its just beating the drum for the sheep anyway. I doubt many seriously torn between the two candidates are paying attention to any of it.
In 2000, Bush barely squeaked by Gore. Gore had to deal with Clinton fatigue. Kerry doesn't.
Bush has a few feathers in his cap since then (capturing Saddam Hussein, removing the Taliban, and learning world geography), but he has few problems (e.g., appointing the anemic Tom Ridge as the first Secretary of Homeland security, no exit stategy from Iraq, the over 2 trillion dollars in debt he's run up etc.). He also has the problem that some people honestly believe the Supreme Court gave him the election or 2000.
I see a bunch of people (in this forum) say how Bush is going to win by a landslide. Im my opinion he's making the same mistake his father made - arrogance. He's underestimating Kerry, and overestimating his wartime popularity.
But we'll see.
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>>Kerry scares the hell out of me. These guys that served with him have sone VERY interesting things to say about his "awards".
We'll see what happens when "unfit for command" hits the shelves.
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Like this one?
>>Yesterday, reached at his home, Elliott said he regretted signing the affidavit and said he still thinks Kerry deserved the Silver Star.
''I still don't think he shot the guy in the back," Elliott said. ''It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here."<<
What we'll see when the book hits the shelves is even more back tracking. Sheep.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
....people (in this forum) say how Bush is going to win by a landslide.....
who ??? - LOL
LANDSLIDE BUSH!!
(http://seethechief.50megs.com/George%20Bush%20and%20Decker.jpg)
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>>who ??? - LOL
<<
Mostly the uniinformed EIB heads :D
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Three questions for kerry supporters (or Bush haters..whatever the difference may be):
1) Is it true kerry was awarded a total of three Purple Heart medals, all for extremely minor superficial wounds, of which two wounds occured in the absence of any enemy activity?
2) Is it true that any individual receiving three Purple Heart medals in Vietnam was given the opportunity to request rotation out of theater?
3) Is it true the Kerry served only four months in Vietnam?
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Originally posted by Toad
None of us do. Not even you.
Same with Bush.
Agreed 100%.. But im not on a politically propt up bandwagon spinning lies about Bush or Kerry.. I attempt to read through all the propaganda and judge for myself. I dont attempt to spread the spin.. For certian I'm not proping a book that is already refruted by one of it's own character witnesses before it hits the shelf.. I do have my flaws, but believing in either political parties with closed eyes is not one of them...
For those that still wish to bash on Kerry's VN record and challange Kerry's leadership abilities in VN, I only ask you to answer my two questions placed in this thread....
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Originally posted by Yeager
Three questions for kerry supporters (or Bush haters..whatever the difference may be):
1) Is it true kerry was awarded a total of three Purple Heart medals, all for extremely minor superficial wounds, of which two wounds occured in the absence of any enemy activity?
2) Is it true that any individual receiving three Purple Heart medals in Vietnam was given the opportunity to request rotation out of theater?
3) Is it true the Kerry served only four months in Vietnam?
Christ yeager... He went and he served.. wtf? do you people think he had all this planned out?? Who gives a **** what the wounds were.. He was there with the possibility of death...
I have doubts in all you so called 'vets' or ex-military people who would even attempt to belittle his service.. ****ing repulsive..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Christ yeager... He went and he served.. wtf? do you people think he had all this planned out?? Who gives a **** what the wounds were.. He was there with the possibility of death...
I have doubts in all you so called 'vets' or ex-military people who would even attempt to belittle his service.. ****ing repulsive..
i dont question kerrys service because even if he was a political hack at the time he was still in combat zone. but turn your statement around how can anyone question the nerve or bravery of someone who is jet fighter pilot? bush jr was there with possibilty of death as well. all arguements to contrary are made by political robot with no idea of military life at sharp end of things. even more insulting you have extreme leftist now saying that they respect military service.
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whole thing about attacks on bush jr remind me of rather calling bush sr "wimp" on tv. pissant reporter telling combat pilot hes a wimp should have been a comedian instead of a "reporter".
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Originally posted by Yeager
Three questions for kerry supporters (or Bush haters..whatever the difference may be):
1) Is it true kerry was awarded a total of three Purple Heart medals, all for extremely minor superficial wounds, of which two wounds occured in the absence of any enemy activity?
2) Is it true that any individual receiving three Purple Heart medals in Vietnam was given the opportunity to request rotation out of theater?
3) Is it true the Kerry served only four months in Vietnam?
#1 No,
1) In any action against an enemy of the United States;
2) In any action with an opposing armed force of a foreign country in which the Armed Forces of the United States are or have been engaged;
3) While serving with friendly foreign forces engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party;
4) As a result of an act of any such enemy of opposing armed forces;
5) As the result of an act of any hostile foreign force;
6) After March 28 1973 as a result of an international terrorist attack against the United States or a foreign nation friendly to the United States, recognized as such an attack by the Secretary of the department concerned, or jointly by the Secretaries of the departments concerned if persons from more than one department are wounded in the attack; or,
7) After March 28, 1973, as a result of military operations, while serving outside the territory of the United States as part of a peacekeeping force.
8) After December 7, 1941, by weapon fire while directly engaged in armed conflict, regardless of the fire causing the wound.
9) While held as a prisoner of war or while being taken captive.
A wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer.
#2 True, thousands of troops took this option to get back to the world, many with multiple decorations.
#3 False, His first tour in Vietnam was aboard ship, never came under enemy fire during that tour. He requested and recieved his his requested billet in country with the Swift Boats for his second tour.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
You know nothing about kerry other than the propaganda you fill your head and thoughts with.. I find it appauling you would disrespect another's service if you yourself indeed served in the armed forces..
A few simple questions of Kerry's 'type' of officer.
1. How many of the men serving under Kerry died to hostile action?
2. How many men did Kerry's action save?
This same fellow service member came home and basically PISSED on the graves of all his other fellow GIs that had died and all of those still serving in combat with out right blatent LIES.
you may write that off as him wanting to end the war blah blah blah but I dont feel the end justifies the means here. Vilifying the fighting men he served w/ was a discgrace.
Add that to some of the things I've read about him and his total 4 months of service and he does equal that dangerous Officer.
Give him another 8 months in country and he would have likely done two things......shaped up and been a totally different person today.....or F'up and get some or all of his crew killed.
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Thanks Lars.
that piece of toast scares me :aok
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Christ yeager... He went and he served.. wtf? do you people think he had all this planned out?? Who gives a **** what the wounds were.. He was there with the possibility of death...
I have doubts in all you so called 'vets' or ex-military people who would even attempt to belittle his service.. ****ing repulsive..
so if I went to Iraq....I served right? Correct
If I went to Iraq and served in an other than honorable fasion.....I still served right? Correct again.
Isnt something I should brag about
Dude....kerry is running on his war record.....his war record is not much to brag about.
The fact that these vets are being written off as propaganda for the RNC without anyone hearing their story is rediculis.
When I read of storys that kerry put himself in for his first perple heart after he got a self inflicted wound from poor handling and firing of an M079 grenade launcher on a night when no enemy action took place.......it churns my stomache. The worst part of it, it is beleiveable because of the amount of times Kerry has changed his version of the story.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
so if I went to Iraq....I served right? Correct
If I went to Iraq and served in an other than honorable fasion.....I still served right? Correct again.
Isnt something I should brag about
Dude....kerry is running on his war record.....his war record is not much to brag about.
The fact that these vets are being written off as propaganda for the RNC without anyone hearing their story is rediculis.
When I read of storys that kerry put himself in for his first perple heart after he got a self inflicted wound from poor handling and firing of an M079 grenade launcher on a night when no enemy action took place.......it churns my stomache. The worst part of it, it is beleiveable because of the amount of times Kerry has changed his version of the story.
Answer my questions gunslinger.. How many of his people serving under him did Kerry get killed through poor leadership? How many people under his command did he save? WTF else matters? He served his country and got his people back safe under his command..
Your no patriot.. Get off your self ordanded high-horse.. Your a ****ing hypocritcal parrot with a chip on your shoulder.. Just repeat what you hear untill you get a cracker.........
edit: Their stories?? You mean stories from the book you keep talking about? The book that it's chief character witness is now refruting??
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Answer my questions gunslinger.. How many of his people serving under him did Kerry get killed through poor leadership? How many people under his command did he save? WTF else matters? He served his country and got his people back safe under his command..
Your no patriot.. Get off your self ordanded high-horse.. Your a ****ing hypocritcal parrot with a chip on your shoulder.. Just repeat what you hear untill you get a cracker.........
edit: Their stories?? You mean stories from the book you keep talking about? The book that it's chief charater witness is now refruting??
Hmmm were to start. If you think leadership is all about bringing your men home you are half right
I agree with you that it is important.
Let me ask you this. Do you have any proof that kerrys first purple heart was not a self inflicted scratch or are you just beleiving what kerry said and the citation.
I've definatly keeping an open mind on this and the only thing not tying this all together is kerry's crew itself.
But, all these storys fit kerry's profile perfectly
as far as Capt Elliot is concerned we will just have to wait that one out cause SBVFT is saying this:
"Captain George Elliott describes an article appearing in today’s edition of the Boston Globe by Mike Kranish as extremely inaccurate and highly misstating his actual views. He reaffirms his statement in the current advertisement paid for by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Captain Elliott reaffirms his affidavit [see below] in support of that advertisement, and he reaffirms his request that the ad be played.
“Additional documentation will follow. “The article by Mr. Kranish is particularly surprising given page 102 of Mr. Kranish’s own book quoting John Kerry as acknowledging that he killed a single, wounded, fleeing Viet Cong soldier whom he was afraid would turn around.
edit:
So answer me this. Does not losing anyone under your command make you a good leader? Does it qualify you to be commander in chief?
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Answer me, I answer you.. 8)
Sorry, im being an ass...
I dont think it would unconditionaly make a good leader... But, it could.. I dont mean to say he would be a great president.. I dont mean to say he would be a terrible president.. I'm saying he served his time and did his duty.. Let it rest. Judge him on his political life...
You do notice I have not brought up Bush's VN record.. It just simply not worth the time..
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Answer me, I answer you.. 8)
as stated in the very first line of my reply
Hmmm were to start. If you think leadership is all about bringing your men home you are half right
I agree with you that it is important.
In a hypothetical situation is just bringing your men back alive good enough.....
NO, It is important but in military terms mission accomplishment ALLWAYS comes before troop welfare.
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And as far as retracting statements from Unfit for command....here's all Capt. Elliot......ONE OF MANY QUOTED IN THE BOOK retracted.
The Globe quotes Elliott as saying yesterday, "I still don't think he shot the guy in the back. It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here."
He still thinks kerry should not have gotten the silver star for his actions.
also:
In the interview with the Globe, Elliott said that based on the affidavits of the veterans on other boats, he now thinks his assessment that Kerry deserved the Bronze Star and third Purple Heart may have been based on poor information.
"I simply have no reason for these guys to be lying, and if they are lying in concert, it is one hell of a conspiracy," he told the paper. "So, on the basis of all of the information that has come out, I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know first hand."
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
as stated in the very first line of my reply
Hmmm were to start. If you think leadership is all about bringing your men home you are half right
I agree with you that it is important.
In a hypothetical situation is just bringing your men back alive good enough.....
NO, It is important but in military terms mission accomplishment ALLWAYS comes before troop welfare.
Ok Gun..
My second question was how many of his men did Kerry save??
You just keep going with this bull.. err stuff..
What mission did Kerry not accomplish or finish??
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You know nothing about kerry other than the propaganda you fill your head and thoughts with.. I find it appauling you would disrespect another's service if you yourself indeed served in the armed forces..
You assume you know all about Kerry from the propaganda HE has filled YOUR head with?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
And as far as retracting statements from Unfit for command....here's all Capt. Elliot......ONE OF MANY QUOTED IN THE BOOK retracted.
The Globe quotes Elliott as saying yesterday, "I still don't think he shot the guy in the back. It was a terrible mistake probably for me to sign the affidavit with those words. I'm the one in trouble here."
He still thinks kerry should not have gotten the silver star for his actions.
also:
In the interview with the Globe, Elliott said that based on the affidavits of the veterans on other boats, he now thinks his assessment that Kerry deserved the Bronze Star and third Purple Heart may have been based on poor information.
"I simply have no reason for these guys to be lying, and if they are lying in concert, it is one hell of a conspiracy," he told the paper. "So, on the basis of all of the information that has come out, I have chosen to believe the other men. I absolutely do not know first hand."
Was Kerry responsible for signing the paper work that got him his Silver Star?
Who cares if the guy agrees that he got it or not?? Was Elliot in the boat with them when the actions took place?
Prolly my last post here.. Simply a waste of time and my w/end is about to start...
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Well, it is a fact that he didn't accomplish the super-secret Cambodia mission he said he participated in on 25/26 December 1969, since he was not in the area and has since quit talking about the episode.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Ok Gun..
My second question was how many of his men did Kerry save??
You just keep going with this bull.. err stuff..
What mission did Kerry not accomplish or finish??
I honestly dont know how many men he saved. If you think leadership is based on JUST these two questions you are sorely mistaked.
To me I see an officer that was lucky not to get people killed.
According to Wright, Kerry frequently broke protocols of engagement for SWIFT boat commanders.
When you're in a group (of boats on patrol) you don't open fire unless the person in charge tells you to or unless you are defending yourself from an immediate attack ... I'd have problems because we'd be running on a river and Kerry would see something off in the distance and he'd take a pot-shot at it, to see what happened. And that wasn't the way we were trying to run the patrols.
We were trying to get in and find out what was going on, and hopefully make contact and begin to work with some of the people that lived there ... And you don't get to go shake their hands when you're shooting at them.
I asked Wright how Kerry would respond to the necessary correction that would follow such unilateral actions.
Well, during the mission you just continue to issue the orders that you expect people to follow and, if they don't do them, you would continue to press until you got the results that you need.
After a mission, is generally when you work out the more difficult problems. And those are done in private.
I'd go talk to John Kerry and I'd tell him that I was unhappy with his opening fire, or pulling out of a column when he wasn't supposed to, or failing to communicate when he needed to ... And I'd always get an excuse. I wouldn't get a direct answer.
I'd get "I didn't hear that," or "We thought we saw something" or "My radio was on the other side of the boat" or "I didn't have time." It was always an excuse. After three or four times ... I went to the division commander, told him about the problems I [had] been having and told him [the commander] that he needed to take steps to correct it.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
You assume you know all about Kerry from the propaganda HE has filled YOUR head with?
Nope.. see my post before..
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My last post for a while as well.
I dont mean to say he would be a terrible president.. I'm saying he served his time and did his duty.. Let it rest. Judge him on his political life...
FACT: John kerry is running on his war record
Since that is the case that is what we have to base what kind of person John Kerry is. I believe his record should be scrutinized.
Have you ever served in the military? These statements from those in his division describe to the T every bad officer I've ever worked for. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. You can write these vets off as propaganda smear tactics or you can hear what they have to say w/ an open mind. Your choice.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I honestly dont know how many men he saved. If you think leadership is based on JUST these two questions you are sorely mistaked.
To me I see an officer that was lucky not to get people killed.
That entire article is about as laughable as others questioning if Kerry shot the VC guy in the back.. As if that should even be brought up.. Its loving war for god sake.. The badguy was armed.. The badguy was armed with a weapon that had the potential to destroy his entire crew and boat.. These type people write columns that might have some questioning whether or not Kerry should have capped the badguy..
Kerry not following protocal? lmao Enough for me..
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screw it. Your're not reading here, I never said he shouldnt have shot the VC in the back or the front.
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If you were a hotdog, would you eat yourself? I know I would. Hell, I'd be delicious.
-SW
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How many Swiftboat men made a point of putting themselves in for Purple Hearts for scratches?
How many Swiftboat men used the "3 Hearts and out" clause?
How many Swiftboat men left Viet Nam before thier year tour was up without having suffered a major injury or death?
How many Swiftboat men gladly ran home from combat when they didn't have to leave, and left their crewmates behind?
Answer to all 4 questions - 1 man. John Kerry.
Says a lot about character (or lack of) I think.
dago
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Read the chapter, read the book. Decide for yourself. I personally think that their are to many counter accounts of what he said he did. The man is a liar of the worst sort.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
graet kik asss psot BigGayMAW ((C) Furball 2004).:D
damn, at least get it right.. its BigGayBaldingMAW...
;)
(http://www.gifmaniacos.com/SouthPark/Big_Gay_Al/ggayal.gif)
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Here's another (http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110005452) take on the subject.
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Excellent post Lazerus..
All Vietnam War historians cite atrocities. My Lai was the most publicized at the time, but decorated Vietnam combat veteran David Hackworth has declared "there were hundreds of My Lais." Last year the Toledo Blade won a Pulitzer Prize for documenting how an Army platoon, called Tiger Force, conducted a seven-month reign of terror in the central highlands in 1967, killing countless men, women and children. Just this week, when a Fox News commentator tried to goad Gen. Tommy Franks, the Bush Iraqi war commander, into attacking Mr. Kerry for those old assertions, this Vietnam veteran, to the consternation of his questioner, made clear that atrocities occurred in Vietnam.
I guess Gen. Tommy Franks is an un-american communist too...
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
screw it. Your're not reading here, I never said he shouldnt have shot the VC in the back or the front.
I did not say that you did.. I was just pointing out the lengths some will goto to attempt to drag Kerry's record through mud...
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Excellent post Lazerus..
I guess Gen. Tommy Franks is an un-american communist too...
He's a Commie?
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admitting atrocities is not what makes Kerry an un-American communist. It's the stuff he did after he got back that has everyone in an uproar.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
admitting atrocities is not what makes Kerry an un-American communist. It's the stuff he did after he got back that has everyone in an uproar.
Like what?? Throwing metals? Revealing the truth? Protesting? Those damned un-american traits... Gawd, if only we could live somewhere you couldn't do that...
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That aside..This is my belief..
You served during a war...
You come home and protest against the war and the service..
You lose the right to use your service that you abandoned .
It's wrong to come back now and act proud to have served just becasue it suits your needs.