Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: SunTracker on August 06, 2004, 04:41:39 PM
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Post tactics that the P-51 can use against the Ki-84 (historical and from other flight sims).
I believe the 84 will have a top speed of around 400mph, and excellent acceleration. This means the P-51 wont be able to disengage from a fight without diving away. Also, the Ki-84s zoom climb will probably be amazing due to the high thrust-to-weight ratio of the aircraft (source= Aces over the Pacific handbook).
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Nik dweebs are going to have a chitfit.
Wax
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Also it has combat 'butterfly' flaps to improve low speed handling - not sure where those will put it in the ranks of low speed manueverability. Probably better than almost any other late-War monster a/c?
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We are going back to 1945.
http://www.angel.ne.jp/~tochy/airplane/1945/1945.mpg
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perk it..
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Not a Perk ride....I'll post numbers on it below.
Nakajima ki-84 Hayate "Frank"
Numbers on Ki-84- 1 to 1c
Engine: in all production models 1900hp Nakajima Homare Ha-45
Model 11 18 cyl two row radial.
Weights: Empty 5,864 lb (2680kg) normal loaded 8,267lb (3750kg)
Performance: Maximum Speed 388 mph (624k/hr) initial climb 3,600 ft/min. service ceiling 34,450 ft. (10,500m)
Armament: 1a: 2X20mm Ho-5 in wings 150 rds each, 2X12.7 mm type 103 in fuselage with 350 rds.
1b: 4X20mm each with 150 rds two in wings two in fuselage.
1c: two 20mm in fuselage and two 30mm in wings (all operational models)
can carry two drop tanks (98gal) or two 250kg bombs.
Range internal fuel 1,025 miles with drop tanks 1,815 miles.
Source: German, Italian and Japanese Fighters of WWII
Author: Bill Gunston
Publisher: ARCO Press NY
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Sun....take a look at the stats I posted. It's not a 400 mph aircraft. Very nimble and a well gunned aircraft. With good speed but not outstanding speed. And not as light as you would expect.
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Hajo,
Those are the absolute lowest numbers obtained by the first prototype.
It may use those, but I'd guess it will be a tad better.
I don't think it will use the American test data that had it faster than the P-51D or P-47M until 20,000ft.
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Karnak....might be....but everywhere I've searched these numbers seem to be the consensus.
Was also written because it was a late war aircraft the quality was very poor. Sometimes from plane to plane. Due to the bombing of aircraft plants and steel facilities , engines, and landing gear were a question mark. States :"Sometimes the Pilot wouldn't know when he took off whether his aircraft would climb to reach the B29s" This due to the lack quality engines, availability of parts, and the poor quality of Steel being manufactured at that time.
So.....if it is modeled top notch....would be wrong. If modeled at low end...wouldn't help either. All in all even if above stats are the norm....it's a very formidable adversary....which I am dying to use....
And....only one question...Where's the Ki100??? That would be plane I'm looking for!:)
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I've seen Ki84 numbers range from 388mph to 420mph.
I estimate the Ki-84 will be able to accelerate as fast as the G10 or La7.
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its going to be perked
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Hope they give it the best case numbers..Hope they light perk it along with the F8F-2
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The only real weaknesses the Frank had in AW were poor high speed handling, structural weakness (wings popped off), and terrible performance at extreme monkey alts (30K+).
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Nik dweebs are going to have a chitfit.
Wax
The nikdweebs will all be flying Ki-84's
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A P-51 pilot would use the same tactics against a Ki-84 as he would against something like an LA-5FN or such. That is, he'd want to keep thew speed up and not get slow for prolonged lengths of time.
Hajo--
You see those numbes everywhere because the data from the prototype was the most commonly reproduced. As Karnak mentions, the Ki-84 is unique in that there are a LOT of widely different sets of peformance data available for it, all of which are valid in their own way. This is a fighter which HTC can pretty much choose how they want it to perform--it could potentially be anything from a sub-standard N1K to something so scary it needs a perk.
For example, top speeds in various flight test setups ranged from the low of 388 MPH to as high as 427 MPH. The general agreement on the BBS is that most wartime Ki-84's probably reached the 410 MPH range; faster than the prototype but not as fast as the meticulously cared for and prepped version from the US postwar tests.
J_A_B
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A Ki-84 and a P-51 engaged in combat in the Pacific. The P-51 was flown by a guy named Lt. Davis. Davis tried to follow the Ki-84 in a turn and the tail of his P-51 snapped off.
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hope it is prone to ripping wings off if you overspeed it ( say above 402 mph) and try to turn fast! :D
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Originally posted by SunTracker
A Ki-84 and a P-51 engaged in combat in the Pacific. The P-51 was flown by a guy named Lt. Davis. Davis tried to follow the Ki-84 in a turn and the tail of his P-51 snapped off.
I would say that Lt. Davis' P51 was due for Depot level overhaul and had been flown well above its stress limitations prior to this engagement.
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As I feared, this thing is going to replace the La7, the Spit, and the Nik in one felled swoop. It was bad enough seeing those three all the time, but its still better than just seeing one aircraft.
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I'm betting it won't be faster than an La7 below 10K, that it won't outturn a Spit, and that it will be faster and outturn a N1K - but won't be able to hang on its prop as well.
I don't thing they are creating a new plane to obsolete three others - but it will have it's niche...
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Delirium,
You are massively over reacting.
It won't for these reasons:
Paltry ammo load = N1K2 retains people
two x 20mm and two x 12.7mm = N1K2 retains people
Isn't a Spitfire = Spitfire retains people
No Hispanos = Spitfire retains people
Can't do close to 380mph at SL = La-7 retains people
Isn't a flying tank = La-7 retains people
There is a huge spread of performance numbers out there for the Ki-84. It is way, way, way too soon to start making statements like yours as though they are fait accompli.
Wait until it is in the game, test it and see how it is.
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When I think of the Ki-84, one thing comes to mind...
Lunch.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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anyone Bet the KI84 is going to outdo the Nik in whines
:D
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
When I think of the Ki-84, one thing comes to mind...
Lunch.
-- Todd/Leviathn
Yea I think a Spit V will fly circles around it, or at least those damn barrel roll evasise you do. :)
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
perk it..
Perk - smirk
Why perk everything new ? It's just a good fast ride like the LA 7 and P 51 ..and the G 10 .....
Im looking foward to using newer faster
planes ... ...
AH has need some new Kites for a long time .
CHECKERS
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I'm glad to see the Hayate being added to our hangar. The plane is fast, but it's not uber & certainly should NOT be perked. Pilots will realize that once they try to do a 450-mph dive in order to chase the uber LaLa-7.
Now, the LaLa-7...THAT should be perked now that the Ki-84 is here. Maybe now...dweebs will see the difference between good and Uber.
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In WB flying for the Axis side, I needed a Ki84 against the P51. The 190s weren't up to it and neither were the 109s (we didn't have the G10 but had the K model). I once went to 40K in a P38L and had 3xki84 trying to get up to me - LOL. They couldn't quite get there, but were close.
In RL the ki84 was known to suffer from build quality issues. Wonder if they're modelled...
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Shouldn't expect quality problems beetle.
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
When I think of the Ki-84, one thing comes to mind...
Lunch.
-- Todd/Leviathn
I'm sure your thot process doesn't change according to plane type.
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Originally posted by sax
I'm sure your thot process doesn't change according to plane type.
I don't get it.. While the Ki-84 is much welcomed, its performance is not superlative in any way.
Every Japanese test I ever saw in print shows a max speed in the 388 to 392 mph range. American tests of a captured Ki-84 do not reflect the performance seen in combat. Why? Because this aircraft was stripped of paint, flew without ammunition and was tested using 100/130 octane avgas. The best gas available to Japanese units was about 87 octane. What this means is that Japanese pilots were faced with hard-ceiling MAP limits. This combined with an already fragile powerplant meant that maximum power was limited.
This reminds me of the silly arguments where the Ki-100 is extolled as the "best Japanese fighter of WWII". Well, the Ki-100 showed almost zero performance advantage over the Ki-61 from which it was developed (only because the factory building Daimler type engines was bombed into rubble). It was more than 100 mph slower than the P-47Ns which roamed over Japan with nearly absolute impunity beginning in the spring of 1945.
As to the Ki-84, if HTC models performance according to Japanese tests, we can expect a sea level speed of around 348 mph, with a maximum speed of about 390 mph @ 21,500 feet. Dive performance will be similar to the N1K2-J (meaning it will be unimpressive), and climb rate should fall into the range of 3,500 to 3,800 fpm at sea level depending upon weight of load-out.
In other words, it will be a little faster than our 1942 Spit9 down low, and a little slower up high. Rate of turn will be almost the same as the wing loading is also virtually the same. On internal fuel, the Ki-84 could fly 1,025 miles, the Spit9 about 980 miles.
So, what I expect to see is a Spit9 clone with inferior dive performance, inferior high-speed handling and durability of airframe.
We can expect the Ki-84 to get a lot of use initially, but it will not unbalance the arena.
Pilots who know how to dominate the Spit9 will also dominate the Ki-84 by applying the same tactics.
One final note. Post-war analysis of Naval fighter operations shows that the F6F completely dominated the more advanced late-war Japanese fighters. It maintained an 8.5/1 kill to loss ratio against the the Ki-84, N1K2 and J2M combined as a group. Yet, this is inferior to the ratio of the P-38J/L, which exceeded 12/1 against this same group. This can be attributed to better pilot training, better tactics and (in general) stronger, more durable and reliable aircraft.
My regards,
Widewing
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In AW the Ki84 was the favoured japanese plane.......
With 1 notch of flap could turn with a spit IX but could not roll with it and after a prolonged period would lose e to the spit IX.
It was however faster than the Spit IX and could accelerate better particularly in dive however compression was problematic as the wings came of at hi g and during comprression speeds both were the likely out come.
Rudder authority was good (unlike AW's N1K2)
Its lethality was roughly equal to AW's Spit IX.
It did not carry quite the top speed of the P51 (in AW the P51 was the runstang) but it would out climb it and initially out accelerate it.
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84 vs the Pony in WB was a good matchup. If both knew there rides it was interesting.
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Spit V will have a nice time with it :D
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Widewing,
Those Japanese tests were of the first and second prototypes using a less powerful engine and without their final details cleaned up. Nakajima engineers debriefed post war indicated it did about 410-415mph at best altitude.
There was a thread in the Aircraft & Vehicles forum where the fuel issue was discussed. One poster seemed to know what he was talking about and claimed the Ha-45 was designed for 87 octane fuel and was run at Japanese boost settings for the American test. Being faster in the American tests because of the factors you mentioned as well as that Ki-84's meticulous maintainance.
My point is that there are so many numbers out there for the Ki-84 that until HTC releases it we won't know how it performs in the context of AH. I expect 392mph best speed and ~350mph at SL. But I really don't know.
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i'm really hoping it does replace the spit/la7/niki. I can fly one plane at a time. either i choose one with strengths against one but cant find one that can be called a nik/spi/la7 killer all in one super uber ultra monster ride. at least if they're all flying the same thing i only have one plane to worry about out performing in some aspect. think about it. I can fly a zeke, which should out turn the spit/niki. but the la7 could out class me greatly in speed. same if i flew the hurricane. i'd be happy to only have to deal with the ki84.
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It won't replace any of the big 4. Depending on how it performs (if it is "better" than the Niki), all the Japanese pilots will switch over to it, so you'll probably see a 3-4% decrease in the overall use of the Niki, maybe a 1-2% decrease in the Spit 9. La-7 and P-51 numbers won't be effected, those are two different "communities".
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Originally posted by Widewing
I don't get it.. While the Ki-84 is much welcomed, its performance is not superlative in any way.
Agreed Widewing.
I'm saying players of Levi's caliber are thinking lunch no matter what the icon says.
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The biggest impact I see might be in the CT where F4U will now be featured more often in late PAC setups. In that case the rest will depend on how HTC models Ki-84 performance.
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Originally posted by TBolt A-10
I'm glad to see the Hayate being added to our hangar. The plane is fast, but it's not uber & certainly should NOT be perked. Pilots will realize that once they try to do a 450-mph dive in order to chase the uber LaLa-7.
Now, the LaLa-7...THAT should be perked now that the Ki-84 is here. Maybe now...dweebs will see the difference between good and Uber.
Hayate?
I think we are getting the "Frank"
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Ki-84
"Hayate" - Japanese name
"Frank" - US code name
A6M
"Type Zero" or just "Zero" - Japanese name
"Zeke" - US code name
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Originally posted by Mugzeee
Hayate?
I think we are getting the "Frank"
The Japanese call the Ki-84 the Hayate, which translates as "Hurricane."
"Frank" is a nickname created by the Allied forces.
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100/130 octane avgas.
From what I have read 100 octane was used to simulate water/methanol.
Like Germna planes the ki-84 used water/methanol injection to run at higher boost. Water was injected into the eye of the SC and evaporated cooling the charge. This increased the temp / pressure at which the 87 octane would detonate.
Higher octane fuel detonates at a higher temp / pressure and should allow for a higher boost. But high Octane fuel run in an eng with a low compression ratio would not burn as clean and you would end up with a dirty intake and not much of a performance boost. Eng wear would be a problem as well because of the higher temp.
If the Ki-84 is without water/methanol then MAP limits for 87 octane will indeed mean a much slower plane then one with 100 octane or one with 87 + water / methanol. It wouldn't make sense that the US would have tested the Ki-84 with higher MAP settings then were used by the Japanese with 87 + water.
However I have not seen any records from the US flight tests that shows the MAP settings.
I am not saying the Ki-84 in AH should do 420. I could careless.
One thing we should note though is Japanese avgas was being produced from all sorts of things and in that sense even it 87 octane fuel was probably not that good later in the war.
I only point this out because I don't want people to just point to 100 octane fuel as some sort of majic juice.
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The Japanese call the Ki-84 the Hayate, which translates as "Hurricane."
'Hayate' in Japanese, 'Zui-feng' in Chinese, 'Jil-poong' in Korean. Kinda hard to translate exactly. Consisting of two letters meaning "running" and "wind" - literally "running winds".
Some translate it as 'gale', others into 'hurricane' but personally the nuiance is closer to a 'wild surge of wind' which doesn't accompany rain or thunder.
A 'sudden gust of wind' is probably more like it.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
'Hayate' in Japanese, 'Zui-feng' in Chinese, 'Jil-poong' in Korean. Kinda hard to translate exactly. Consisting of two letters meaning "running" and "wind" - literally "running winds".
Some translate it as 'gale', others into 'hurricane' but personally the nuiance is closer to a 'wild surge of wind' which doesn't accompany rain or thunder.
A 'sudden gust of wind' is probably more like it.
Cool! I didn't know that til now. Thanks.
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HAYATE:
Generally translated as "gale" but the Japanese meaning also denotes a sudden, unwelcome, or ill-bringing wind. The nickname of the Type 4 Fighter (Ki-84), a.k.a. "Frank".
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Originally posted by Mitsu
HAYATE:
Generally translated as "gale" but the Japanese meaning also denotes a sudden, unwelcome, or ill-bringing wind. The nickname of the Type 4 Fighter (Ki-84), a.k.a. "Frank".
if Mitsu says it, it's so. :lol thanks for the info.
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Ki-84 vs F6F
Ki-84 vs P-38
Ki-84 vs P-51
Oh yeah, I can't wait...
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Originally posted by beet1e
In WB flying for the Axis side, I needed a Ki84 against the P51. The 190s weren't up to it and neither were the 109s (we didn't have the G10 but had the K model). I once went to 40K in a P38L and had 3xki84 trying to get up to me - LOL. They couldn't quite get there, but were close.
In RL the ki84 was known to suffer from build quality issues. Wonder if they're modelled...
Doubtful. HTC isn't known for that. If so, we would see such stuff as a paddle-blade prop on the D-11, Fuel leaks, flat tires on landings, boogers on the windscreen, etc..
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Its a new plane.
Lets hold the bullchit about what it will or will not replace/outclass/etc. until we see the big bird in action.
My guess. The first guy to up one will get swatted down because everyone will wanna kill it fast. It'll be the ***** of every gangbang.
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Ki-84 vs P-51
(http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/cl-pln/images2/Hayate3.jpg)
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Try out "Il-2 Aces Expansion Pack", you'll get to fly all three models of the Ki-84.
:aok
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Originally posted by Delirium
As I feared, this thing is going to replace the La7, the Spit, and the Nik in one felled swoop. It was bad enough seeing those three all the time, but its still better than just seeing one aircraft.
At least in AW you could shame pilots into abandoning the Frank for a mor emanly ride, sometimes. But that won't work in here, as no one has any shame.:D
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How's the Ki-84 gonna 'replace' any of those planes?
Even if it's performance is optimistically modelled it still would be essentially a 'cross' between La-5FN and a Spit9 at low altitudes... or, a Spit14 with a downgraded climb and no high-alt performance.
With the inherent changes in AH2, as opposed to how it was in AH1 - especially in gunnery - , speed is THE most important factor as a top fighter plane in usage/preference. The Spit9 and the N1K2 always had a combined usage rate of 20% in AH1, which in AH2 has dropped full 5% which is significant in usage numbers, with the N1K2 doing anywhere between 7~8%, and the Spit9 6~7%. In turn the Bf109G-10 has risen 1.5% at least, and the Fw190D-9 sees full 3% more usage than AH1 standards.
Deck Speeds
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Tempest Mk.V 386
La-7 380
F4U-4 378
Fw190D-9 375
Typhoon Ib 370
P-51D 367
Bf109G-10 366
Ta152H-1 361
Ki-84-Ia 360 (optimisitic)
Spitfire Mk.XIV 358
F4U-1 358
P-51B 358
F4U-1D 357
F4U-1C 356
La-5FN 356
Ki-84-Ia 355 (mildly optimisitic)
Yak9-U 355
Ki-84-Ia 350 (expected)
Fw190A-8 349
Fw190F-8 349
Ki-84-Ia 345 (mildly conservative)
P-38L 344
P-47D-11 344
P-47D-25 340
P-47D-30 340
Ki-84-Ia 340 (conservative)
Bf109G-2 340
Fw190A-5 339
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It's certainly a fast plane, and nothing like any of the Japanese planes we had so far. Probably a very formiddable one. But it's still not fast enough to cope with the most overused planes of P-51D and La-7.
Also, I'm skeptical as whether it would really turn like a Spit9 in a sustained condition. Remember that everybody assumed that the Spit14 would turn like a Spit9 or Spit5, as some records have indicated that those two planes had 'no difference in turning circle'.
The Spit14 is probably one of the best fighters in the set if it was unperked, but certainly it does not turn like a Spit9. In fact for many it was a big disappointment.
Another factor in maneuverability mentioned is the fowler-type combat flaps, but considering the conditions in which flaps are used in AH, unless there is material proof suggesting flaps can be popped out over 250mph IAS, like in the case of most of AH planes it won't become a factor in maneuvering until the plane is really slow.
All in all, the La-7 and P-51D usage levels would stay nearly the same. A significant part of Spit-N1K2 users would move to the Ki-84-Ia, but those who have been accustomed to Fw190D-9, P-51D, La-7 will probably not be interested in it.
My estimate is that the Ki-84-Ia will draw its base mostly from the former Spit9/N1K2 users, and some of the people who like flying "exotic" planes like the C.205 or the Yak-9U, La-5FN - the sort of planes that are highly competitive but not very popular in the MA.
My estimates in usage numbers would be something like;
P-51D same at 10%
La-7 same at 10%
Spit9 down to 5%
N1K2 down to 4%
Ki-84-Ia up to 8%
A very wide used plane indeed, but doesn't 'replace' anything.
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Kweassa nice post about the stats
but think why do those people fly those niks and spits not because there fast thats for sure
so why would alot of them move to the KI84
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ki-84 vs P-51
(http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/cl-pln/images2/Hayate3.jpg)
Where'd you find that image GRUNHERZ? 506th FG Mustangs are an interest of mine and that's one in the background flying vs that Ki-84
599 was better known as "Anything Goes" and was flown by Captain Pete Nowick
You can see it as the trailing Mustang in the image included showing them near Iwo Jima where they were based.
Notice the artist messed up a bit by forgetting the twin antenna on the fuselage and the single under the nose that was a mod done to the Iwo 51s to give them a directional locater back to Iwo for the long over water flights.
Since Nowick survived the war as did 599, it's safe to say this particular Ki84 pilot missed.
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1092123543_458th51s.jpg)
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I don't see the Ki-84 taking all that many from the N1K2. It simply hasn't got the magazine capacity that N1K2 fliers are used to, especially considering the insane rate of fire the Ho-5 has. The Ki-84 will probably take most of the Japanese players from the N1K2 as it is the new Japanese super plane. Speed leads to success even if the speed is only a narrowing of the gap.
I can see more Spitfire Mk IX pilots switching as they are already used to a short clip. The Ki-84's speed and fuel range may be very attractive to non-Spitfire fan Spit pilots.
I don't know where the Ki-84 got a reputation for being that much of a speed demon. My take on it was always that it would greatly narrow the speed gap between the Japanese and late war Allied aircraft. That coupled with its maneuverability will make it a very dangerous opponent. It should fall into the line of "Anything that can out run it can be out turned by it and anything that can out turn it can be out run by it". Sorta like the La-7 if the La-7 couldn't outrun everything out there.
Then there are people who fly the exotics. They may switch to it for it's novelty, but as it's novelty wears off and it's "Dweeb Plane" status sets in they'll abandon it.
I'm going to switch to it because I am really tired of fighting La-7s in the lumbering Mossie. I want to kill La-7s easily and I think I am good enough to do so if I flew a real fighter.
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Kweassa nice post about the stats
but think why do those people fly those niks and spits not because there fast thats for sure
so why would alot of them move to the KI84
It's for empirical reasons.
In the combat flight simming world, since the days of its first appearance on personal computers, there always have existed essentially two different types of preference factors in choosing one's plane.
The first tendency is the 'orthodox' or 'historic', quite in junction with the real-life historic outcome of evolution of fighter craft.
Essentially the faster plane, which preferrably would handle bette at high speeds, is a historic/orthodox choice for many people. The more sophisticated and accurate a portrayal of air combat is in a certain game, the more people choose faster late-war planes - as speed ensures survival, and dominance of fight. When one flies it right, one may not necessarily win, but at least one never loses in those planes.
The other tendency is the 'unorthodox' or 'ahistoric'. In a critical way of thinking, it sort of can be viewed as a exploitation of the limits of a game as opposed to reality.
In a real air combat two hostile forces are both organized in a military fashion, and operate with certain decorum and procedures as a team. In this environment, the side equipped with slower planes are usually always the ones in deep trouble.
However, in a game, there are far more diverse and unrealistic situations where slower but more nimble planes may actually be more advantageous. As far as the pilots of those types of planes have the patience and self-control of limiting one's own engagements to best exploit the situation, the slower but more maneuverable planes have distinct qualities - especially in the offensive role.
When a Spit9 or a N1K2 finds a plane lower and/or slower than him, he latches on and usually does not let it get away. He drives and forces his opponent to harsh maneuvering which in turn, might mean the demise of the Spit9/N1K2 pilot himself - IF there are other enemies nearby.... which means, if the pilot of the Spit9 or N1K2 can avoid that situation, and only seek out those he can easily claim, then getting a kill in a Spit9 or a N1K2 is almost ridiculously easier than doing the same in a Fw190D-9 or a P-51D or a La-7.
In other words, if the Spit9 or the N1K2 is employed as a purely offensive plane in limited situations where one side ALREADY has dominance over the other(vulches, hordes, local airsuperiority, low-alt brawls, huge alt advantage, etc etc..), then it may actually provide better results than faster planes.
Ofcourse, the speed in uninspiring - which means in a situation where it has to work to gain dominance, it sucks, and has low survivability. That's why the Spit9 and the N1K2 has low K/D, and considered as a 'grunt' plane. That's why some of the most notorious(but hardly respected) Spit9/N1K2 'professionals' are only seen inside huge hordes or vulches.
The Hurricane or the A6M possess simular possibilities, but these are too much slow to be of combat-worthy in most situations, in an arena infested by '44, '45 planes. The Spit9 and the N1K2 would probably be the lowest limit one can go down to, to expect at least some kind of potency in the MA.
...
Now, add in the Ki-84 into the equation. If it performs anything like expected, it would do 340~360 mph at deck. This, is noticeably faster than both the Spit9 or the N1K2, but still much slower than the La-7 or the P-51D. However, it would most probably become the best maneuvering plane for that speed range, and also better maneuvering than a lot of even slower planes.
In that case, it is natural to assume that people who fly the P-51D or the La-7 in the MA(barring the few who fly those planes for the reasons that it REALLY is the plane of his special interest - such as the 13th TAS or the 412th, or the 9th GIAP...) fly it for its speed.
These people have no reason to fly the Ki-84 at all. It's still not fast enough.
However, those who fly the Spit9 or the N1K2 have a significant alternative which might hugely improve their survival rate, as well as provide better chance of catching faster enemy planes running away.
In a simple analogy of cause and effect, the people who would most benefit from the Ki-84, is the people who would fly the Spit9 and the N1K2.
Almost certainly the Japanese pilots would all at once, turn to the Ki-84.
All the rest of the MA who flies Spit9s or N1K2s (except the people who fly the Spit9 because he REALLY is a RAF fan.. or he REALLY likes the N1K2 as it is..).. those who choose the Spit9/N1K2 would also definately turn to the Ki-84.
People don't fly the N1K2 or the Spit9 for its speed, that's for sure.
But they fly it because it offers best K/T(kill-time ratio) - easy planes to fight and kill in.
Now, if there's a plane that's very simular or slightly worse in maneuverability(which, is the main source of its high K/T), but is significantly faster... ?
There you have it. Reasons why former Spit9/N1K2 pilots would be the ones who turn to the Ki-84-Ia.
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I don't know Kweassa, I still think N1K2 fliers will be shocked by the short ammo clip.
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I thought about that too Karnak.
I meet two types of N1K pilots regularly - in the American/European prime time, a lot of mediocre pilots use the N1K2-J. In my Pacific prime time, I get to fight a horde of N1K2s the Japanese gamers are piloting, who are usually difficult opponents in up-close-and-personal fights.
However, in both cases I've rarely seen them land more than 3 kills. As a matter of fact, the notorious N1K2 pilots of my own prime time having such problems were actually shocking as well as amusing. These are the same guys used to snipe my plane at 800 yards and extending. Now, even if I fall down to '400' distance marker, as long as I have speed I can outrun them away easily. Only when I'm caught really slow, and the distance isn't parting, that I ever get shot down at 400~600.
They've become more adapted to AH2, but still the only times I see them land more than 5 kills is when they start a vulch(which, by the way, they are very good at..).
In conditions surrounding AH2 I believe the burden of slow speed, and the need to close in at least full 200 yards more than they used to in AH1, outweighs the burden of having lower ammo load.
There's an interesting phenomenon going in place in Pac prime time - that the N1K2 specialists have moved over to the La-7 !! They still fly a lot of Spit9s and N1K2s, but I've seen them testing out more and more faster planes. Slowly, they are starting to move over to faster planes too.. which of course, trend might take a different course if the Ki-84 arrives.
In short, in AH2 higher ammo load doesn't seem to mean much if your plane is slow. So much more rounds are wasted and needed to be sprayed, in order for most of them to shoot down anything.
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Hmmm. I've flown the N1K2 twice since AH2 came out, the first flight I landed 11 kills, my second highest total ever in any aircraft, and all were ait-to-air. It was the ammo clip that enabled me to do that.
The second time I took off of a CAPed base and got one before being taken out.;)
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I know nothing about the ki84, but from those numbers it will destroy F6f and P47s with ease. F4U will have some hard time down low and so will the P38s.
what time did it enter service? wasn't its natural enemies F4u-4 P51D and P47N by that time?
Bozon
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From what I have read here, the Frank will be an intresting plane.
My fighting style is to climb out to about 12K, locate the fight, find a cherry, swoop down, make the kill or break off, get back on perch, wait for another cherry, then take 1 or 2 scalps home before the fuel runs out. Great for your K/D, but not your K/Time, or K/Sortie.
But that is how I like to fight. That would make me a (totaly) shameless-cherry picking-alt monkey- Pony (or LA7) dweeb :rofl
So I doubt if I will switch to the Frank.
However it is exciting that HTC is now getting some new planes. :aok
BTW, I like my Franks with mustard :rofl :rofl
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Bozon,
It entered service in April, 1944.
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Originally posted by bozon
I know nothing about the ki84, but from those numbers it will destroy F6f and P47s with ease. F4U will have some hard time down low and so will the P38s.
what time did it enter service? wasn't its natural enemies F4u-4 P51D and P47N by that time?
Bozon
If it's modelled similarly to WB it was a hog-killer, dead meat, can't run, can't hide, can't outfly , and a fairly tough fight for an F6-F, at least you had some chance of turning with them.
The guys in PAC time flying combo hordes of Ki-84s and niki's will be very challenging to say the least. Individually either plane can be handled tactically, but flying together in large groups well that's another thing.
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Kweassa, I think your assumption is faulty... check out the Spit 5's totals for the past few tours. Unless I'm mistaken, the linear drop in Spit 9 use is balanced by a linear rise in Spit 5 use, which suggests to me that Spit 9 pilots are moving to the slower but more manueverable spit 5.
You are right about the Japanese player base moving to the La-7, I've noticed that to in the mornings when I play.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Bozon,
It entered service in April, 1944.
thanks. I thought it was one of those late 1945 planes. Very good preformance for an early 44 ride, must have been a nasty opponent when it entered.
Bozon
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perk it ...its just like a F4U-1C only faster and could have better guns ;/
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Originally posted by Kweassa
A 'sudden gust of wind' is probably more like it.
Sounds like a fart to me ;)
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Originally posted by 327thBS
perk it ...its just like a F4U-1C only faster and could have better guns ;/
What???
Its slower and it will have less powerful guns...
What plane's performance are you morons looking at when you ask for thes KI-84 to be perked even before it gets into the AH2 arena...
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Easy there GRUNHERZ. The WBIII Ki-84 is faster on the deck than the AH F4U-1s and WBIII F4U-1s. Or so I am told.
No arguing with you about the power of the guns. Ho-5s are good, but they're not power guns.
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Speaking of Ki-84s vs P51s
http://www.angel.ne.jp/~tochy/airplane/1945/1945.mpg
Dan/Slack
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Originally posted by Redd
If it's modelled similarly to WB it was a hog-killer, dead meat, can't run, can't hide, can't outfly , and a fairly tough fight for an F6-F, at least you had some chance of turning with them.
Hiya Redd :)
Agreed, if they are modelled similarly they'll be a pain for the F4U flyers. A good fight for the F6F's if you get'em turning. If I remember right they had pretty poor high speed handling.
In a furball, flying a Zeke or F6F, they were high priority target :)
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Originally posted by Guppy35
599 was better known as "Anything Goes" and was flown by Captain Pete Nowick
You can see it as the trailing Mustang in the image included showing them near Iwo Jima where they were based.
Notice the artist messed up a bit by forgetting the twin antenna on the fuselage and the single under the nose that was a mod done to the Iwo 51s to give them a directional locater back to Iwo for the long over water flights.
Dan/Slack
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1092123543_458th51s.jpg)
So what's the importance of the striping on the wings? Is that for orientation? I know some stunt pilots use that trick as a guidance tool for loops and such by lining the stripe up with the horizon.
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Originally posted by gofaster
So what's the importance of the striping on the wings? Is that for orientation? I know some stunt pilots use that trick as a guidance tool for loops and such by lining the stripe up with the horizon.
I've seen it described two ways. On the Recce Mustangs it was used to line up the camera angles, and on the fighter/bomber Mustangs it was used to line up the dive angles.
As these guys carried rockets and bombs at times, I would assume it's for the latter.
Dan/Slack