Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Nash on August 06, 2004, 07:10:20 PM
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Not one of these Swift Boat WhateverThey'reCalled ever served with John on any swift boat. Not a single one of them.
None of these guys were witness to any event they describe in their book.
I didn't know that...
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Really? That's not what Van O'Dell said.
Or every single one of Kerry's CO's.
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Who's Van Odell?
And every one of Kerry's CO's said that The Swift Boat Operators for Liberation all served alongside Kerry?
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Originally posted by Nash
Who's Van Odell?
And everyone one of Kerry's CO's said that The Swift Boat Operators for Liberation all served alongside Kerry?
Van O'Dell was there when Kerry "earned" his bronze star. Do your homework before you flap next time.
No, every single one of Kerry's CO's served along side him.
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Originally posted by Nash
Not one of these Swift Boat WhateverThey'reCalled ever served with John on any swift boat. Not a single one of them.
None of these guys were witness to any event they describe in their book.
I didn't know that...
It bothers you, doesn't it? You're not a US citizen, and your opinion of our politics adds to 0.
John Edwards: "If you have any question about what John Kerry is made of, just spend 3 minutes with the men who served with him."
Al French: "I served with John Kerry."
Bob Elder: "I served with John Kerry."
George Elliott: "John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam."
Al French: "He is lying about his record."
Louis Letson: "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury."
Van O'Dell: "John Kerry lied to get his bronze star ... I know, I was there, I saw what happened."
Jack Chenoweth: "His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day."
Admiral Hoffman: "John Kerry has not been honest."
Adrian Lonsdale: "And he lacks the capacity to lead."
Larry Thurlow: "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry."
Bob Elder: "John Kerry is no war hero."
Grant Hibbard: "He betrayed all his shipmates ... he lied before the Senate."
Shelton White: "John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam."
Joe Ponder: "He dishonored his country ... he most certainly did."
Bob Hildreth: "I served with John Kerry ...
Bob Hildreth (off-camera): John Kerry cannot be trusted."
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Well damn... If ya put it like that ... Every soldier in Iraq served with General Tommy Franks... Doesn't mean they know anything about what eachother did.
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You should delve deeper than shallow media headlines, Nash. Had you bothered to read what each man wrote, then you would know that they served with him, one as a gunner on his boat, while Kerry was captain, and that the other men were in the same squadron(s), at the same time. If they weren't, they say so, and their beef is with his testimony, not his service.
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Originally posted by Lizking
You should delve deeper than shallow media headlines, Nash.
Excuse me but am I in the wrong place all of a sudden? I coulda sworn I was typing at the AH BBS.
Okay fine - what's the gunner chaps name?
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no Nash is getting his talking points from the kerry campagn.
"not a single one of the men who pretend to have served with Senator Kerry was actually a crewmate of Senator Kerry's and the man pretending to be his doctor was not."
that was from a letter from the kerry campagn to TV stations telling them not to show the ads.
I've never read any of these guys claiming to be "crewmates" but people that served in his division and on other boats.
SO in essence....YES they did SERVE with him.
The book "unfit for command" was written by a guy that took over kerry's boat after his 4 month combat tour was over.
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Nash, the only thing these gentlemen state as a group is simple and is only thier opinion: John Kerry is not fit to be the President.
Each individual says why he has reached that conclusion, though most cite his anti-war testimony. Not that he was anti-war, even, specfically what he accused others of.
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Originally posted by Nash
Well damn... If ya put it like that ... Every soldier in Iraq served with General Tommy Franks... Doesn't mean they know anything about what eachother did.
What does General Franks have to do with this?
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http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php?topic=SwiftVetQuotes
Reading is FUNdamental.
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"I am Bozo and I served with John Kerry".... means ..... "I was in Vietnam fighting Vietnamese and so was Kerry thus I served with him in this great purpose."
Now - which of these guys was in the boat, EVER, with Kerry?
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OMG - THIS guy is part of this?!
(http://www.swiftvets.com/images/conf10s.jpg)
Holy.....
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1. If most of Kerry's fellow Swift veterans don't support him, then who were all those guys with him at the Democratic Convention? They made it appear that Kerry has the complete support of his "Band of Brothers" from Vietnam.
John Kerry has been able to convince about 13 men who served on Swift boats in the Mekong Delta to support him, 7 or 8 of whom were at various times crew members on his own 6-man boat. Those are the men the Kerry campaign so prominently featured at the Democratic Convention. The photograph we have posted at SwiftVets.com shows Kerry with 19 of his fellow Swift boat OICs (Officers In Charge) in Coastal Division 11. Four OICs were not present for the photograph. Only one of his 23 fellow OICs from Coastal Division 11 supports John Kerry.
Overall, more than 250 Swift boat veterans are on the record questioning Kerry's fitness to serve as Commander-in-Chief. That list includes his entire chain of command -- every single officer Kerry served under in Vietnam. The Kerry game plan is to ignore all this and pretend that the 13 veterans his campaign jets around the country and puts up in 5-star hotels really represent the truth about his short, controversial combat tour.
The Swift boats fought in groups, so the other OICs who fought alongside Kerry know him well and can accurately describe what he did and did not do. In many cases Kerry's fellow OICs had a better perspective than his own crew members, since the latter had no way to determine whether he was following orders and how well he worked with his peers.
Edid: Source - so you can just say its all lies. :)
http://swift1.he.net/~swiftvet/index.php?topic=FAQ
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Okay then Grun so what yer saying is that the guys who were IN his boat and saw this stuff go down first hand support him, and that a whole ton of other people who drove the same kind of boats but didn't have any personal experience with Kerry whatsoever are against him?
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Originally posted by Nash
Okay then Grun so what yer saying is that the guys who were IN his boat and saw this stuff go down first hand support him, and that a whole ton of other people who drove the same kind of boats but didn't have any personal experience with Kerry whatsoever are against him?
Van O'Dell, and every single one of his COs is against him.
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We've established that Martlet. But which of these guys were in his boat?
You know... my original post. Read it again, appearently it's FUNdamental.
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Originally posted by Nash
We've established that Martlet. But which of these guys were in his boat?
You know... my original post. Read it again, appearently it's FUNdamental.
Van O'Dell, and every single one of his COs oppose him.
Can't you read?
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KERRY IS A VICTIM!!! A VICTIM I TELL YOU!
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Like I asked before - who is O'Dell?
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Originally posted by Nash
Okay then Grun so what yer saying is that the guys who were IN his boat and saw this stuff go down first hand support him, and that a whole ton of other people who drove the same kind of boats but didn't have any personal experience with Kerry whatsoever are against him?
Intersting twist on it.
These boats served in groups, like wingmen. So youyr contention that they never wotnessed these events is not true. As for "personl experience" his whole chain of command and the vast majoroty of his peer level commaders certainly had personal experience with him. Unless you are saying that he never left his boat, planned missions alone, was evaluated by his dog and gor orders from nowhere.
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Nash, if you are not going to read the link, why bother? Those are persons who are willing to put thier name up and say their piece. Some served in daily, intimate contact, some didn't.
Read them or STFU, because you are just making an bellybutton of yourself.
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Originally posted by Nash
Like I asked before - who is O'Dell?
He was on Kerry's boat.
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I did read it Liz... And I came to this conclusion:
these guys have their name all wrong. They should be called:
Swift Boat Operators Pissed the shreck OFF About Kerry's Congressional Testimony.
Don't make nuthin' they didn't see in the very first place, fact.
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Every single one of Kerry's CO's say he isn't fit to be CIC.
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I got another proposal...
a group called:
"Swift Boat Operators That Never Really Operated A Swift Boat Thanks to the War Ending and Who Are As Equally in the Dark About Kerry's Exploits Thank God"
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Don't make nuthin' they didn't see in the very first place, fact.
No hablo.
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That is basically what it is, Nash. A bunch of his peers and superiors who do not think he is fit to be President. They don't make any bones about that.
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But they suggest they served with him.
"I am bozo and I served with Kerry"
That's so damned disengenous it's stupid.
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Hell the gunner on his boats says he never got along with Kerry. It is not like they are implying anything. They say their piece. If you don't believe it, don't believe it, but they are hiding nothing about themselves or their relationship to Kerry.
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Every single one of Kerry's COs say he isn't fit to be CIC.
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Nah, Nash is just bored. He acts like this just to have someone to chat with.
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Hey, if I were judged on my behavior when I was twenty, I'd be screwed. Well.. lets not even go there shall we? :)
Alluhsudden these guys seem to be able to extrapolate that a 20 year old's behavior in war (winning the bronze/silver star in the process) makes him unfit now for president 35 years later .... It's beyond my comprehension.
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Originally posted by Lizking
Nah, Nash is just bored. He acts like this just to have someone to chat with.
He should get a hamster.
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Shaddup, Liz :D
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Pissed Off Swift Boat Operators Who Didn't See Squat But Are Damn Eager To Tell Ya About It.
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Originally posted by Nash
But they suggest they served with him.
"I am bozo and I served with Kerry"
That's so damned disengenous it's stupid.
Hmmm....You dont have to be a member of the crew to see John Kerry's character flaws. Swift boats go out in packs....not as loan wolfs.
What you are saying Nash is that his crew were the ONLY people ever to see him in his long 4 month tour?
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Mine too Nash. Kerry shows himself to be the stupidist person on the planet by ever making it an issue. I just have never followed the logic:
It is not like he did his anti-war when he was a kid, he voted against the Gulf War in 1991. So why in the world would he think that the period from 1970 to present would be forgotten, and he could base his campaign on a 4 month period?
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pissed off liberals that hate someone who was there has the truth about their boy?
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Originally posted by Nash
Hey, if I were judged on my behavior when I was twenty, I'd be screwed. Well.. lets not even go there shall we? :)
Alluhsudden these guys seem to be able to extrapolate that a 20 year old's behavior in war (winning the bronze/silver star in the process) makes him unfit now for president 35 years later .... It's beyond my comprehension.
Yet I hear another group of people is saying the same events are evidence of his fitness to be president... Whats your opinion of that perspective?
IMO this whole election is incredibly retarded and dissapointing, are these two men really the best we can put forward? Anyone who votes this year should be ashamed of themselves for propagating this farce.
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Well, all I know is... The folks IN HIS BOAT stand behind him.... And if they cared enough to write a book with a grizzly looking cover you can be sure that at least they... ... were speaking from personal experience.
The rest of these guys got faxed some list of statements... a few pissed off republicans were snagged, signed it, and faxed it back.
These statements made their way into a book which begins "It was a dark and stormy night..."
Great fiction a la Clancy until you remeber that these guys weren't in his damn boat!
The guys in his boat love the dude....
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Originally posted by Nash
Well, all I know is... The folks IN HIS BOAT stand behind him.... And if they cared enough to write a book with a grizzly looking cover you can be sure that at least they... ... were speaking from personal experience.
The rest of these guys got faxed some list of statements... a few pissed off republicans were snagged, signed it, and faxed it back.
These statements made their way into a book which begins "It was a dark and stormy night..."
Great fiction a la Clancy until you remeber that these guys weren't in his damn boat!
The guys in his boat love the dude....
Van O'Dell was in his boat, he's opposed. So are EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS COs.
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Tell me, how pleased were Kerry's CO's about THEIR COs? How pleased were those CO's about THEIR COs? How pleased was Kerry about his COs? Who's the straight shooter in this mess?
I will be struck dead by lightning before I enter Odell into a search engine. What's up with him?
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Originally posted by Nash
Tell me, how pleased were Kerry's CO's about THEIR COs? How pleased were those CO's about THEIR COs? How pleased was Kerry about his COs? Who's the straight shooter in this mess?
I will be struck dead by lightning before I enter Odell into a search engine. What's up with him?
What's that whole CO mess got to do with anything? Every single one of Kerry's CO's oppose him.
Of course you won't look for Odell. We already know you aren't interested in the truth.
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Tell us nash since he wont release his military records,why not ,
Whats he got to hide. Or in your opinion only repubs. have to
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Okay I looked for O'Dell, but all I could find was this:
"John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says one, Van O'Dell."
Throw me a bone, here.
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face it nash... he's as big a sissy boy as you are.
lazs
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Originally posted by Martlet
What's that whole CO mess got to do with anything?
That was one screwed up war... On any angle you look at it from. A complete mess...
So maybe Kerry went there, and was like, wtf IS this?
Maybe he pissed off his COs... but I can guaruntee you if questioned at the time, his COs were a hell of a lot more pissed off about much, much more than this Kerry guy.
Do I fault anyone for being non-PC over there about it? Nope.
I seen alotta movies (which qualifies me as an expert btw) that has some dialogue along the lines of "Anyone who tells you this is about God, country and apple pie is full of 5hit. It's about my unit and that's all"
Well, his unit stands behind him.
These other bozos are unwitting pawns.
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Originally posted by Nash
Okay I looked for O'Dell, but all I could find was this:
"John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says one, Van O'Dell."
Throw me a bone, here.
What more do you want? You can't find much about ANY of the vets who served with Kerry on either side.
You just have to face the facts, which is something you aren't willing to do.
A: Who knows what happened on the boats. People who were there are on both sides of the story. Every one says they aren't politically motivated. Regardless, they are motivated somehow. We will honestly never know the truth. You just believe what you want.
B: Maybe Kerry DID stretch the truth to get out of swift boat duty. Again, who cares, and who can blame him. Lots of people would. Does it reflect on him as a person if he did? No, but it does reflect on him as it relates to qualifications to be CIC.
C: Does what happened 30 years ago have anything to do with this election? Not really. The part it SHOULD play is miniscule. They both have records in politics that should be discussed. Why aren't they? Because you have to have an understanding of political relationships and the issues to discuss them intelligently. The vast majority of people don't. It's much easier to just dump on issues that are easy to understand, and don't take any analysis.
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Hi Lazs!
That was a short reply.... Put another quarter in it and git yerself 15 more minutes.
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Nice Grun but it's been pointed out several times that I'm missing a big piece of the puzzle if I don't know about the one guy who was on his boat.
I just wanna know what his deal is? What he say?
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Originally posted by Nash
That was one screwed up war... On any angle you look at it from. A complete mess...
So maybe Kerry went there, and was like, wtf IS this?
Maybe he pissed off his COs... but I can guaruntee you if questioned at the time, his COs were a hell of a lot more pissed off about much, much more than this Kerry guy.
Do I fault anyone for being non-PC over there about it? Nope.
I seen alotta movies (which qualifies me as an expert btw) that has some dialogue along the lines of "Anyone who tells you this is about God, country and apple pie is full of 5hit. It's about my unit and that's all"
Well, his unit stands behind him.
These other bozos are unwitting pawns.
The COs ARE important, though. They are the ones tasked with evaluating Kerry. They view his actions, how he does his job, his attitude, the attitude of his men, his results, etc and rate it. That's their job. I'd take their word even before his men. Here's an example.
When I was first assigned to MIF my team leader was loved. He was easy on us and avoided hazard zones. Unfortunately, military bearing went out the window and he wasn't accomplishing his mission as well as he should have. We loved him, but as a team leader he sucked. He was replaced. The COs evaluated him, realized he wasn't the best for the job, and dumped him.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Every single one of Kerry's COs say he isn't fit to be CIC.
Arriving late, sorry. (Nash, youre a poopy head) There.
Do you have a link for this I can read?
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I get the sneaking suspicion that John Kerry was in fact the very first person in Vietnam ever to realize how shrecked up things were. This irritated his seniors, who thought THEY were the only ones allowed to ***** at their seniors, which pissed off THEIR seniors and next thing you know we have The Pissed Off Swift Boat Operators.
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Originally posted by Nash
I get the sneaking suspicion that John Kerry was in fact the very first person in Vietnam ever to realize how shrecked up things were. This irritated his seniors, who thought THEY were the only ones allowed to ***** at their seniors, which pissed off THEIR seniors and next thing you know we have The Pissed Off Swift Boat Operators.
I presume to know nothing about what Kerry was actually like in Vietnam because I wasnt there, but if his attitude was anything like youre describing above he's lucky he wasnt fragged.
Junior officers have a job to do and if they're worrying about how "shrecked up" the war is, they're not doing it.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Arriving late, sorry. (Nash, youre a poopy head) There.
Do you have a link for this I can read?
Here's the report (http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200405/SPE20040503a.html) from cns, you can't take the info from there and look further if you'd like.
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Originally posted by Nash
I get the sneaking suspicion that John Kerry was in fact the very first person in Vietnam ever to realize how shrecked up things were. This irritated his seniors, who thought THEY were the only ones allowed to ***** at their seniors, which pissed off THEIR seniors and next thing you know we have The Pissed Off Swift Boat Operators.
Ahhhh yes, Kerry the intellectual.
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I worked for a guy once who was an ex-swifty. I was mate on his boat, sweet little 32' custom sportfisherman. We ran charters on the weekends, and he would drink with the charter party, and about 2 in the afternoon, pass out at the helm. This was not usually a problem, as I sat on the bridge steps to get a good view of the baits, and would just run the boat too. One time he did it while we were circling a rig about 70 miles offshore, though, and I was in the cockpit. We missed tangling a rigger in the leg of the platform by about 2 feet, and that was the last time I worked with him.
He wouldn't talk about his time much, but he did say that the boat handled just like his swift boat. He had Stewart and Stevens double turbo'd intercooled detroits in it, and that boat would fly!
Not in relation to anything, just my experiences.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I presume to know nothing about what Kerry was actually like in Vietnam because I wasnt there...
Shoulda stopped there. And welcome to the club.
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Btw.... still asking 'cuz I wanna know.
Can someone shed some light on the one guy who supposedly served on Kerry's boat?
A link? Anything?
I just wanna know what he says.
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nash boats worked in groups not far apart and as part of same element so they are working together and oics of boats are coordinating fire and maneuver over radios. oics of other swiftboat probably have better idea of kerry as combat leader than some of crew on his boat. crew on boat sometimes have area of responsibility kerry not ordering each crewman in combat. bow gunner has arc of responsibilty his job is to cover that arc. division in usn not like division in army. guys in same unit in swiftboat have much experience working with kerry and each other. think maybe like bomber crews. enlisted crew in big bomber not know skills of bomber pilot like other bomber pilot in same squadron do.
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blah blah blah.... buncha boats inna water... blah blah blah... guys in dem other boats know more about wot went down then the guys actually in Kerry's boat.... blarg blarhg...
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Originally posted by Nash
blah blah blah.... buncha boats inna water... blah blah blah... guys in dem other boats know more about wot went down then the guys actually in Kerry's boat.... blarg blarhg...
Nash you're trying to dismiss it too much. I suppose in yiour line of work peer and superuior's reviews dont matter.
IMO there is validity to both sides. Obviously some of his crewmen like him, others dont. The vast majority of his peers and command dont like him and they knew him plenty well.
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lol.... "peers"
His "peers" were the men in his boat.
They seem to like the dude. It seems he leadership abilitied them.
The rest of these guys were there in Vietnam "serving" thus "serving with Kerry" even though they were miles away, yet they have the drop on it.
Cheeeya..... wotev.
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"My name is Steve Gardner. I served in 1966 and 1967 on my first tour of duty in Vietnam on Swift boats, and I did my second tour in '68 and '69, involved with John Kerry in the last 2 1/2 months of my tour. The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
-- Steven Gardner
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Ready for a big cup of STFU, Nash?
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Originally posted by Nash
lol.... "peers"
His "peers" were the men in his boat.
They seem to like the dude. It seems he leadership abilitied them.
The rest of these guys were there in Vietnam "serving" thus "serving with Kerry" even though they were miles away, yet they have the drop on it.
Cheeeya..... wotev.
Peers means people on same level, as in the other boat commanders he worked with on a daily basis.
For your take on events to be fully valid one would have to belive that Kerry's boat served in isolation, that Kerry was not part of a larger organization and that he wasnt part of a command chain. In other words that the only relevant contcat and interaction he had was with his own crew.
You know thats not true.
And what is this miles away stuff? These bosts worked in close groups suporting each other - they were like wingmen.
It really seems that you think Kerry served independant of the other boats and independant of the chain of command.
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Van Odell was a gunner in Kerry's unit and was there in the same action at the same time when Kerry supposedly earned his Bronze Star.
Steve Gardner, A CREWMAN on Kerr's boat, says Kerry lied about being told about the "Bo De Massacre", because he was with Kery when Kerry claimed to be told about it, and nothing Kerry says about that night is true.
Oh, and Kranish, a reporter for the "Boston Globe" and Kerry's biographer (LOL, not like there's any conflict or bias there), did not even know that Kerry lied to him when he claimed to have spent Christmas Eve and Christmas Day in Cambodia (illegally).
Swift boats patrolled in groups about 90% of the time, not alone. In fact, the stricken boat in the incident in which Kerry supposedly earned his Bronze Star was one of at least 3 boats there. So that would be about 18 people in the average patrol.
Someone else posted this link earlier, here it is for you:
http://home.comcast.net/~m.tucker46/UnfitCh3.pdf
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Hello, my name is Nash.
In highschool I served with Lizking in a bakery factory. He was a number 2, and I was a number 4.
I'll be the first to tell you that it was not easy work. There was bread flying off the belts thissa way and thatta way. It was never ending.
We were tasked with bagging the bread.
Well, when push came to shove, Lizking couldn't even pull his hair net on straight let alone navigate the lines and efficiently bag the bread in a timely manor. There was one day that... well... I'll not go into it except to say that we lost a lot of good bread that day.
This was 35 years ago, and I admit there was the constant worry that our fingers were under threat of being pinched by a plastic bread tie causing debilitating blood blisters... yet...
I have reached the conclusion and therefore can attest that Lizking is NOT a good leader.
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Originally posted by Nash
lol.... "peers"
His "peers" were the men in his boat.
They seem to like the dude. It seems he leadership abilitied them.
The rest of these guys were there in Vietnam "serving" thus "serving with Kerry" even though they were miles away, yet they have the drop on it.
Cheeeya..... wotev.
not miles. couple hundred meters and in constant radio contact and all in debrief together after mission after combat action and so on.
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As long as we are digging up old war peers, why has nobody stepped forward to claim this?
(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2004/db040224.gif)
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We are talking about Kerry, not Bush or Clinton, RPM-that is weak.
Hey, Nash, that is all these guys are doing and saying-it is up to the individual to assess them.
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Rgr Liz..... I'm just a beacon in the night. Woot!
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Originally posted by rpm371
As long as we are digging up old war peers, why has nobody stepped forward to claim this?
(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2004/db040224.gif)
What's wrong there hotshot, can't cover Kerry's prettythang so you change the subject to Bush?:rolleyes:
There's a big surprise.:rolleyes:
NOT!
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Originally posted by Nash
Rgr Liz..... I'm just a beacon in the night. Woot!
Don't shine too much light on Kerry, he might not be able to stand it.
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I thought we were talking about "peers" and their opinion of "fitness". Both of which Bush can't seem to locate.
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Originally posted by rpm371
As long as we are digging up old war peers, why has nobody stepped forward to claim this?
(http://images.ucomics.com/comics/db/2004/db040224.gif)
i understand that super lefties dont care or understand what it takes to become fully rated jet fighter pilot or to earn pilot wings of any kind in military but do they have to repeatedly show their ignorance? why?
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Enough light is already on Kerry and Bush.
These other guys.... on both sides... Well, I hope they know what it means to sign up for this kinda stuff...
So far - ducks not in row.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I thought we were talking about "peers" and their opinion of "fitness". Both of which Bush can't seem to locate.
well one of his flight school instructor say bush jr was one of the best hed ever seen. does that count? or do you not believe he can be skilled jet fighter pilot because he has texas accent.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I thought we were talking about "peers" and their opinion of "fitness". Both of which Bush can't seem to locate.
Read the title and first post of the thread, it's about Kerry, not Bush. Stick to the facts, read something besides the Boston Globe, and see if you can still cover Kerry's prettythang.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Lots of people would. Does it reflect on him as a person if he did? No, but it does reflect on him as it relates to qualifications to be CIC.
That's what I say....about Bush
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I agree - This thread is about getting to the bottom of the Vet/Vet Swift Float Society.
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The bottom is easy to find because the water is crystal clear. A group of 220ish of his peers and superiors do not think he is fit to be president of the United states.
No more, no less.
If you want to argue the integrity of each of these gentlemen, you won't elicit one from me-I consider all of them my betters.
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Originally posted by anonymous
i understand that super lefties dont care or understand what it takes to become fully rated jet fighter pilot or to earn pilot wings of any kind in military but do they have to repeatedly show their ignorance? why?
it takes 60%. If you have the right daddy.
Just so the thread of this disucussion is clear.
none of those men served on Kerrys boat. Not one. Is that correct?
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That is not correct.
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Oh the patriot card "They are all my betters" therefore their 35 year old, non-actual-contact-with-Kerry judgement is beyond question.
Right...
A group of 220 of his peers? Uh... also, right.
Integrity? Fit? Gentlemen? President? Betters?
Give me a break here man...
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Originally posted by Pongo
it takes 60%. If you have the right daddy.
Just so the thread of this disucussion is clear.
none of those men served on Kerrys boat. Not one. Is that correct?
at least one was one of his gunners. and being a fellow oic of another boat in same element would in some case give you better insight into his ability as combat leader. this has been said before. either you lack basic comprehension skills or you dont want to hear the truth. i dont care which it is but stop wasting everyones time by asking question that has been answered or clarified again and again.
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Yeah Pongo - there was this guy on Kerry's boat called O'dell but nobody has said wtf HE says....
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Virgil, kinda hard to quote the story without reading the source. I'm not Matt Drudge.
If Nash says I'm off topic, I must be.
[hijack]But for $10 grand, don't you think at least 1 of his "peers" would have stepped forward to claim it?[/hijack]
Off to the MA for a few hours.
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I have worked on commercial charter boats, and I would listen to both the captains and the mates, but I would think in an actual war situation, his fellow captains would have a better idea of, and more contact with him than his subordinates on the boat.
His Commanding Officers, and fellow Swift boat captains, with the exception of one of 19, ether won't/can't state and opinion(6) or do not think he is suitable for command(12).
Those are his peers, not the enlisted on his boat.
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Originally posted by Nash
Yeah Pongo - there was this guy on Kerry's boat called O'dell but nobody has said wtf HE says....
If you REALLY want to see what Odell said (he is NOT the gunner from Kerry's boat, Steve Gardner is), simply look up the thread and read the chapter from the book, I gave you the link.
Nevermind, here's the link:
http://home.comcast.net/~m.tucker46/UnfitCh3.pdf
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Liz... yer one of the good guys....
You tellin' me that this is Truth and not Politics?
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And you would gleefully say the oposit if this men didnt like him but his supperiors did.
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Originally posted by Pongo
it takes 60%. If you have the right daddy.
Just so the thread of this disucussion is clear.
none of those men served on Kerrys boat. Not one. Is that correct?
No Pongo, it is NOT correct. Steve Gardner was a gunner ON KERRY'S BOAT.
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Jeezus no Virgil.
I read that thing last night... Couldn't be arsed to read the cast of characters....
Let me re-frame the question:
WHO was on Kerry's boat and WHAT does he say?
I'm sure you or someone will be able to jump to the relevent chapter.
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Nash, what I am telling you is that these men have stood up and stated their opinion, with full disclosure of themselves and their relationship to Kerry. They each say why they have the opinion, and for many it is because of his anti-war stance. For the ones that have personal, first hand knowledge of Kerry, they state other reasons, mainly.
The conclusions to be drawn from what they say is up to the individual.
I salute Kerry for his service, regardless, and only wish that he had never brought the issue up in the first place.
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Originally posted by Nash
Yeah Pongo - there was this guy on Kerry's boat called O'dell but nobody has said wtf HE says....
Odell WAS NOT on Kerry's boat. Jeezus, read the freakin stories for cryin out loud. Steve Gardner was the gunner on Kerry's boat, and said Kerry was indecisive, negligent, and incompetent.
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Nash, I posted what he said, up a few posts. Read, son, it is good for you.
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Okay... Now it's not Odell.... It's Chancey Gardner...
What is his beef?
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Originally posted by rpm371
Virgil, kinda hard to quote the story without reading the source. I'm not Matt Drudge.
If Nash says I'm off topic, I must be.
[hijack]But for $10 grand, don't you think at least 1 of his "peers" would have stepped forward to claim it?[/hijack]
Off to the MA for a few hours.
Get over it. At least 90% of what Drudge has on his site is obvious links from news sites. They may not ALL be the flippin Boston Globe, but a lot of them are Reuters, AP, etc.
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Oh - I got it:
"The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
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So now this Gardner guy.... does he like to watch?
nm...
WTF does HE know about boats and men? And I may have missed it, but upon what does he base his opinion?
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I take his opinion to be of very little value, but I won't fault him, because he says up front that he and Kerry never got along.
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same.
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So what's left then?
PO'd CO's?
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Originally posted by Nash
Oh - I got it:
"The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
Yeah, and he also said Kerry was an out and out liar:
THE DINNER THAT NEVER HAPPENED
Kerry’s Fictitious Journal Account
In Kerry’s account of the An Thoi transfer, he makes up an entire conversation
with the skipper of the landing ship tank (LST) who Kerry
claims invited him and Peck for dinner on their way to An Thoi. As
Kerry told the story in Tour of Duty, the LST captain launched into a
discussion about his role in what had become known as the “Bo De
massacre.” According to the version of the story told by Kerry, the
LST captain presented a defensive account, attempting to correct a
Stars and Stripes story criticizing him for LST covering fire that had
supposedly fallen short, exposing Swiftees on the mission to unnecessary
casualties.
But according to Captain Peck’s recollection and that of Kerry’s
crewman Steven Gardner, he and Kerry were at the LST only a few
minutes for refueling, not enough time for a comfortable dinner with
the LST captain—and there was no conversation about “the massacre”
as described by Kerry. Even more significant, Kerry’s account
of the “Bo De massacre” is a breathtaking lie. In Tour, Kerry presents
the first Swift incident on the Bo De as a “massacre” of Swiftees with
seventeen wounded caused by the incompetence of all commanders
whom he chose to blame rather than the vagaries of war or the
enemy. Kerry’s fabrication comes even though he was not there. Joe
Ponder was there as a Swiftee on the mission in question. Today, still
badly disabled and on crutches from the incident, Ponder says, “There
were only three persons wounded—not seventeen as Kerry states—
and I was the first. I do not understand his criticism of our officers.
I’ve always been proud of our officers.”
Ponder maintains today that the person who truly shamed and
offended him was John Kerry, whose fraudulent account of war
crimes in Tour of Duty has led his own grandchildren to ask him,
“Did you commit the war crimes John Kerry describes?” At the
press conference held by the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth in Washington,
D.C., on May 4, 2004, Ponder was in tears, not from his
wounds or the agony of standing with his braces, but from the
wounds that Kerry’s lies in Tour of Duty had left upon his heart and
his family.
There, I did your research for you.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
That's what I say....about Bush
Perfectly legitimate.
My opinion is just that, my opinion. I wasn't there, and must rely on the testimony of people who claim to know. That being said, what conclusions have I drawn?
Did Bush use his connections to avoid Nam? I believe he probably did. Do I think he was AWOL? No. I served in the reserves before and after my active duty, 20 years after Bush. During my time, you could miss as many drills as you wanted, as long as you made them up and had permission. They were very lenient.
Did Kerry work the system to leave Nam early? Probably. Who wouldn't, if you could? He was well connected, and smart enough to manipulate the system. All the men who testify for and against him probably believe exactly what they are saying. Opinion and perspective are surely influenced by personal views. I know mine are. You can come to rational conclusions, but it isn't easy to admit them if they go against what you WANT to be true.
The bottom line is, most of the trash being thrown around is pretty irrelevant to the election.
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Perhaps after the sheep food is done we can discuss Bush's appointment of Tom Ridge as the first secretary of homeland security.
"oh today is level orange - must wear the blue shirt, green will clash."
Could he have chosen anyone more vacant?
I don't care if Kerry shoved a 6 penny nail up his butt to get out of Nam or if Bush shoved 7 eightballs a week up his nose in the 70's. I do care about Bush's questionable judgement.
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Originally posted by Nash
So now this Gardner guy.... does he like to watch?
nm...
WTF does HE know about boats and men? And I may have missed it, but upon what does he base his opinion?
He did a tour in swift boats BEFORE he served with Kerry, a FULL tour, and was finishing up his SECOND when serving with Kerry. So, with TWO FULL TOURS, he has 24 months of swift boat experience to Kerry's 4. I guess he figures with two full tours he has some idea of how swift boats were supposed to operate.
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Sure, Tweety, but I think that should be in it's own thread. Start it, and lt's discuss it.
-
Virgil,
Here's an interesting story, a FACT, as it were:
Yer mom wears army boots.
or whatever...
That whole thing you did is worthless... Where does it come from? Who is the author?
As long as it's between a coupla 's it's legit? Gee - thanks for the research.
Martlet I am shocked. That's prolly the most intelligent thing I think I've heard you say. I need water....
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Originally posted by Nash
So what's left then?
PO'd CO's?
My CO loved me. If your CO is p'd off, it's usually because you suck. If you're doing a good job, you get recognized for it. So doesn't he.
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Originally posted by Nash
Martlet I am shocked. That's prolly the most intelligent thing I think I've heard you say. I need water....
That's because it's much more fun to make folks get their panties in a bunch.
-
I am - still fact checking -people LOVE statistics :D
-
you know when I served in the military I had CO's I liked and CO's I didnt like. Were the ones I liked good leaders? I have no idea. Where the ones I didnt like good leaders? still no clue. I was enlisted and just followed orders. I didn't know how we performed in the grand scheme of things.
I had a crew in a our squad...does that mean I only knew the people in my crew? Nope I knew just about everyone in my squad. From my experience the officers only hung out with officers and enlisted hung out with enlisted. I would tend to listen to what other officers said about him, they knew him on the level that is needed for president.
Heck Kerry might have liked to give out free thailand hookers to his crew and thats why they love him.
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Originally posted by Nash
So now this Gardner guy.... does he like to watch?
nm...
WTF does HE know about boats and men? And I may have missed it, but upon what does he base his opinion?
The question is wtf do you know? You are an idiot dope head by your admission.
What drug are you basing your opinion on?
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Gee...
From what I gather, a 22 year-old who is adored by his CO's is pretty much ready to be president.
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Hey Wotan - shreck you, goof.
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Originally posted by Nash
Virgil,
Here's an interesting story, a FACT, as it were:
Yer mom wears army boots.
or whatever...
That whole thing you did is worthless... Where does it come from? Who is the author?
As long as it's between a coupla 's it's legit? Gee - thanks for the research.
Martlet I am shocked. That's prolly the most intelligent thing I think I've heard you say. I need water....
Oh look, the little man has no basis for his argument (nothing at all unusual) so he makes a personal attack by making a remark about my mother. Gee, aren't you just special.
Idiot, you asked for someone to search through the chapter of the book by the swift vets and find you the part about what Steve Gardner, the gunner on Kerry's boat, and what he said said about Kerry. I can't help it if you are so stupid and arrogant as to not be able to figure out that I went and did what you asked, and that it came from the chapter you could not bring yourself to read.
You really are sad and pathetic. You asked for someone to find you the information, since you admit you were simply to lazy to find it yourself, and the best you can offer is a personal attack.
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I would ask the mates which Captain was good to work for, but I would listen to the other Captains on which Captain was Good (at catching fish, in my case).
Ah well, it doesn't matter anyway. Kerry is what he is, and these guys are just guys. Make up your own damned mind, but don't fail to consider everything.
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Hey Wotan - shreck you, goof.
You maybe able to trade dope for sex around where you live in Canada but on the intardnet there's to much free pRon...
I am not interested.
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Jeeze Virgil...
You responded with a whole ton of bold text; it wasn't titled and it didn't appear to be authored by anyone.
I wasn't insulting your mom... I was just saying saying that by bolding a bunch of text, it doesn't make it true. Just like me bolding the "army boots" thing.
Calm down...
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Originally posted by Wotan
You maybe able to trade dope for sex around where you live in Canada but on the intardnet there's to much free pRon...
I am not interested.
Whoo... that was HOT! I get it!
"shreck you" means "I want to shreck you"...... BUT... why do that when there is FREE PORN!
That is good stuff!
You need a Miller/Stewart writing gig. Yer talents are going to waste.
-
Doh!
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Originally posted by Nash
Jeeze Virgil...
You responded with a whole ton of bold text; it wasn't titled and it didn't appear to be authored by anyone.
I wasn't insulting your mom... I was just saying saying that by bolding a bunch of text, it doesn't make it true. Just like me bolding the "army boots" thing.
Calm down...
Did you even read it? The title was OBVIOUS. You know the part that was all in caps "THE DINNER THAT NEVER HAPPENED"?
If it wasn't authored by anyone, how in the HELL did it get written? Not to mention the fact that it came directly from the same freakin chapter that you were quoting from in the post that I quoted you on. Which came from the link I posted for you, twice.
Exactly how dense are you? Do you need someone to hold your hand and lead you to everything?
For cryin out loud, who taught you reading and comprehension? Or should I say FAILED to teach you reading and comprehension.
I read that whole chapter (the one from the book by and about the people you started this thread about) in about 5 minutes, and found the answers you were asking for without any effort at all. You know, if you'd READ what you question, instead of ignoring it because you don't like it, you might find the answers to your questions yourself. There's nothing like finding things for yourself, you should really try it sometime.
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This thread is about Kerry.
Here's something about Kerry: He says he wants to lower taxes for the middle class yet, as a Senator, he voted to RAISE TAXES ON THE MIDDLE CLASS.... 98 TIMES
Nash is just PO'd because he is getting his asss handed to him in Diplomacy.
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Originally posted by Steve
Nash is just PO'd because he is getting his asss handed to him in Diplomacy.
lol... so true....
Not even into the 1st year build and this is the weirdest dip game I've ever played.
Oh yeah... Hey Virgil, easy bud. I don't wanna read "Dinner that never happened" or whatever.... mkay?
Gimme a guy.... on K's boat... and tell me what he says.
You don't have to bold it that way.
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Originally posted by Nash
Gimme a guy.... on K's boat... and tell me what he says.
You don't have to bold it that way.
I have. Several times. You just choose to ignore it.
O'Dell?
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Originally posted by Nash
lol... so true....
Not even into the 1st year build and this is the weirdest dip game I've ever played.
Oh yeah... Hey Virgil, easy bud. I don't wanna read "Dinner that never happened" or whatever.... mkay?
Gimme a guy.... on K's boat... and tell me what he says.
You don't have to bold it that way.
I can't help it if you don't want to read it. You must be really lazy not to read less than 2500 words. Either that or you don't want to hear the answers to your questions.
The guy on Kerry's boat: Steve Gardner, gunner, served 5 feet away from Kerry.
What he said:
Kerry was lying about the "Bo De Massacre" and what he knew about it. The dinner where Kerry claimed he was told all the facts about the "Bo De Massacre" never happened. They were only there long enough to fill their boat with fuel, and not long enough to have a sit down dinner and discuss a military engagement. A very few minutes.
And, as you already quoted yourself, he also said: Kerry was indecisive and incompetent.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I have. Several times. You just choose to ignore it.
O'Dell?
He (Odell) was not on Kerry's boat according to what I've read. Odell was on another boat in the incident where Kerry supposedly pulled Rassman out of the water while under fire. There were 3 or 4 boats there. One hit a mine, and the explosion knocked Rassman off Kerry's boat. According to Odell, Kerry hauled prettythang, then came back and picked up Rassman, and there was no enemy fire at all in the incident.
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There's that O'Dell guy again....
"The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
Lemme repeat the gist of his argument:
"If a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
We are talking about a 20 year olds' impression of another 20 year old... And the President of the United States of America some 40 years later.
Let me translate:
"I am such a retard".
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Caught a boatload, didn't ya?
-
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I'd have to check but it seems like you do this on Friday nights quite often.
Is this your new entertainment?
-
Just a little over four hours too....... are you keeping records by any chance?
Bet your arm is tired from reeling 'em in.
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Originally posted by Nash
Whoo... that was HOT! I get it!
"shreck you" means "I want to shreck you"...... BUT... why do that when there is FREE PORN!
That is good stuff!
You need a Miller/Stewart writing gig. Yer talents are going to waste.
I am just protecting myself. I have no idea what is flowing through your mind (or veins) when make such statements. My writing style may not be up to par with the eloquent posts of yours but mine are consistent.
The only thing I know about you is what you yourself have posted. Apparently you are a screwed up individual and I think that when judging your points of view on various issues it’s important to understand "where you are coming from".
Take this thread. You claim those swift boat folks who are coming out against Kerry never served with him so what do they know.
This guy Gardner who served with Kerry, on his boat (which seems to the whole point of your rant about the other folks), comes out and says he served right on the boat as Kerry and in his opinion of Kerry:
if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
You dismiss his opinion challenge his authority to arrive at such a conclusion.
So now this Gardner guy.... does he like to watch?
nm...
WTF does HE know about boats and men? And I may have missed it, but upon what does he base his opinion?
The same question can be asked of you. But I know the answer because you told me and everyone else on this board. You are a Canadian liberal dope head.
shreck me? shreck you...
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Originally posted by Toad
I'd have to check but it seems like you do this on Friday nights quite often.
Is this your new entertainment?
Is it just my impression, or have you taken an interest in me?
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Originally posted by Nash
There's that O'Dell guy again....
"The John Kerry that I know is not the John Kerry that everybody else is portraying. I served alongside him and behind him, five feet away from him in a gun tub, and watched as he made indecisive moves with our boat, put our boats in jeopardy, put our crews in jeopardy... if a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
Lemme repeat the gist of his argument:
"If a man like that can't handle that 6-man crew boat, how can you expect him to be our Commander-in-Chief?"
We are talking about a 20 year olds' impression of another 20 year old... And the President of the United States of America some 40 years later.
Let me translate:
"I am such a retard".
Once again, Van Odell did not say that, Steve Gardner said it.
Now, the problem with YOUR argument in this case is that not only is Kerry running on his performance in Vietnam, but rpm and others are saying that Kerry's Vietnam experience makes him infinitely more qualified to be the CinC of the military and makes him less likely to be a loose cannon.
Read what you posted again, and when you do, understand that Gardner was not some snot nosed kid, but in fact had six times more experience in swift boats than Kerry did. Gardner was at the end of his second tour, and Kerry was in the middle of his first and only four month tour.
See, if Kerry is going to run at least in part on his military background as a leader of men, then the fact that a seasoned veteran, along with the majority of his peers (brother officers) and superiors (commanding officers) say that as a leader and a sailor he sucked, was unreliable, and a liar, is a pretty significant fact.
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Heh, Wotan, congrats on a very screwed up reply. Lemme see if I can match you....
You suck.....?
Mebbe not... Choo r teh God.
Hey Virgil....
Kerry served.
The dudes on his boat like him.
Some Repubs not on his boat yet "Serving with Kerry, in the greater conflict against the Vietnamese but not quite serving with Kerry himself" don't like him.
Go figure... SHOCKER!
This is heavy stuff....
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That's just your impression.
It's your new trolling motor that impressed me. You know how some motors just draw fish? This one is really working for ya.
I'm reminded of an old, OLD Canadian I used to hunt with up around Cabri.
He had this business card that had all the normal stuff on one side and the other had:
I am just an average bull****ter myself, but I like listening to REAL experts... so please continue!
You're not related to him are ya?
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xnay!
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Cripes! Don't they teach pig Latin in Canada?
It's ixnay!
Don't worry, there's blood in the water........ you'll be fightin' 'em and landin' 'em for another hour at least.
Tell me though... is this irresistable urge an outlet for the frustrations of the work week? Tell ze gut Dr. Freud..... zere, zere
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Truth is Toad, this is a house of cards.
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Nash......20 year old....
Any 20 year old with 2 tours in any war is no where near being 20 years old.
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I gotta keep busy Toad, always.....
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Life is a House of Cards. If it hasn't dawned on you yet, it will eventually.
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Originally posted by Toad
Life is a House of Cards. If it hasn't dawned on you yet, it will eventually.
I was talking about this boat thing...
Life is not that....
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I was talking about the boat thing too. Just how big IS your fishbox on that thing?
And the troller...... I've been on boats that had the right diesel rpm or whatever to draw fish but I've never seen a little electric draw them like this.
What brand is that?
Nice cast, but I ain't takin' a bedraggled old "wrong hatch" fly like the one you're tossin' tonite!
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You've been around... what can I say?
-
"I'm sorry."
Try that; maybe they'll all forgive you. They say a fish's lips heal up pretty quick if you practice careful catch and release.
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Ya know... it's kinda funny....
Disagree = shade/troll.
And I'm down with that. Completely.....
I get it.
Because only someone bent on buttin' their head up against a wall would submit themselves to this stuff....
...IF they didn't have a sense of humor....
But I say this....
Y'all's quickness to call "shade"/"troll" is basically an admission of the fact that only a dumbarse would offer themselves up to this kinda thuggery. Tantamount to a gang-bang...... and if someone seems to keep coming back, well hell, they just GOTTA be Weaz!
It's pretty stoopid.
And you know what?
Screw you studmuffinS! :D
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Isn't this group bankrolled by some wealthy Texan who donates big to the GOP?
Didn't something like this happen when McCain and Bush were running for the GOP nomination? An add came out that said McCain was not mentally fit to be CiC because of his time as a POW. I believe that was also a covert campaign too. Must be a coincidence.
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I see your mentally unfit McCain and raise you a Willy Horton.
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Ill see your dead horton and raise you woopi goldberg.
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wait a sec... Whoopi was just sayin' chit....
It's only if ya try to make something out of something that you can sit at this table.
So I see your whoopi and raise you a whoopi.
-
ah....ah.....ah.....ah.....ah .....Ill think of something tomarrow
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I'm not gonna weigh in on who would make a better president, they're both rich guys that are out of touch with the middle class that they claim to "understand". I hate them both equally. That being said, what I CAN add to this discussion is my experience on a crewed weapon system in VN. I was there from late '67 to early '70, not on a boat, but in a tank. Granted there is a big difference between the two but the question seems to be........do you need to be physically on the same piece of equipment (as in crew) to know whats going in the immediate area. In my experience the answer is no.
cars
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Originally posted by cars
I'm not gonna weigh in on who would make a better president, they're both rich guys that are out of touch with the middle class that they claim to "understand". I hate them both equally. That being said, what I CAN add to this discussion is my experience on a crewed weapon system in VN. I was there from late '67 to early '70, not on a boat, but in a tank. Granted there is a big difference between the two but the question seems to be........do you need to be physically on the same piece of equipment (as in crew) to know whats going in the immediate area. In my experience the answer is no.
cars
Lies! Lies! damn Lies!
If you weren't on John Kerry's boat and didnt serve directly under him then you werent even in Vietnam!!! :D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Lies! Lies! damn Lies!
If you weren't on John Kerry's boat and didnt serve directly under him then you werent even in Vietnam!!! :D
You weren't wearing the same boots as me! You don't know JACK!
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You propose that only the guys in the boat that he spent his "on duty" time with can know anything about him while his fellow officers that went on the same sorties and that he spent his "off duty" time with can't possibly know anything about him?
And you deny you were just entertaining yourself with this?
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
I'll be back later.
(http://www.aspencountry.com/aspen/assets/product_images/product_lib/27000-27999/27004.jpg)
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Originally posted by Toad
You propose that only the guys in the boat that he spent his "on duty" time with can know anything about him while his fellow officers that went on the same sorties and that he spent his "off duty" time with can't possibly know anything about him?
Well Toad, I bet you could wrangle up a third group, and call them Even More Swift Boat Operators for Change Who Weren't On Kerry's Boat But Who Happen To Dig The Guy.
What I mean by that is, sure... There were a lotta folks in Vietnam and you sure, you can find guys who - for whatever reason - would be willing to say bad stuff about him.
But the guys in his boat actually saw the stuff that the guys who weren't in his boat describe in this book. I'll go with the guys in his boat's story thanks much.
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Originally posted by Nash
Well Toad, I bet you could wrangle up a third group, and call them Even More Swift Boat Operators for Change Who Weren't On Kerry's Boat But Who Happen To Dig The Guy.
What I mean by that is, sure... There were a lotta folks in Vietnam and you sure, you can find guys who - for whatever reason - would be willing to say bad stuff about him.
But the guys in his boat actually saw the stuff that the guys who weren't in his boat decribe in this book. I'll go with the guys in his boat's story thanks much.
Every single one of Kerry's CO's says he isn't fit to be CIC.
Every.
Single.
One.
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Just wtf do they know?
That was 35 years ago and Kerry was a kid.
That's like saying the old managers from your local McDonalds say you sucked and you are not fit to do whatever it is you're now doing.
It's a little extreme, therefore I call BS on the whole entire thing.
(Wow, ex-military Republicans pissed at Kerry's testimony... How outlandish is that?!)
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Originally posted by Nash
Just wtf do they know?
That was 35 years ago and Kerry was a kid.
That's like saying the old managers from your local McDonalds say you sucked and you are not fit to do whatever it is you're now doing.
It's a little extreme, therefore I call BS on the whole entire thing.
(Wow, ex-military Republicans pissed at Kerry's testimony... How outlandish is that?!)
Hypocrisy at it's finest.
First, you claim that Kerry's crew members would know the type of person he was and the accuracy of the events 35 years ago and you'd trust THEIR judgement.
THEN you claim that it was 35 years ago and Kerry was just a kid, so they don't know, Kerry has changed, and it doesn't matter anyway.
You can't have it both ways, kiddo. Well, you can, but I'll just laugh at you harder.
I enjoy watching you spin.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I enjoy watching you spin.
High praise indeed.
I'm saying this and only this.
Out of thousands and thousands of people who served in Vietnam 35 years ago but weren't in Kerry's crew, a few have gotten together and wrote about events concerning Kerry and his crew.
His actual crew, however, say this is a load of crap.
I'm with the crew on this. You can be on Tom Clancy's team.
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Originally posted by Nash
High praise indeed.
I'm saying this and only this.
Out of thousands and thousands of people who served in Vietnam 35 years ago but weren't in Kerry's crew, a few have gotten together and wrote about events concerning Kerry and his crew.
His actual crew, however, say this is a load of crap.
I'm with the crew on this. You can be on Tom Clancy's team.
I actually have to agree with you on the crew issue. They do stand by kerry and that is a testiment.
BUT,
The guy that took over kerry's boat after he left 'nam would have an interesting perspective on kerry's leadership abilities by working with his crew. It reminds me of a part in the NCO creed.
"I will never forget that I am responsible to my Commanding Officer for the morale, discipline, and efficiency of my men. Their performance will reflect an image of me."
Now in THIS post I'm not accusing Kerry of anything just trying to make a point that the guy that took over Kerry's boat might have a thing or two to say about him.
"
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Originally posted by Nash
High praise indeed.
I'm saying this and only this.
Out of thousands and thousands of people who served in Vietnam 35 years ago but weren't in Kerry's crew, a few have gotten together and wrote about events concerning Kerry and his crew.
His actual crew, however, say this is a load of crap.
I'm with the crew on this. You can be on Tom Clancy's team.
Was his crew responsible for rating his performance, or was his Commanding Officer. Which one was tasked with observing his conduct, abilities, and performance then grading it?
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Beats me...
All I know is that the people who were there are saying that this faxed-affidavits-cum-novel written by people who weren't there, is fiction.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Every single one of Kerry's CO's says he isn't fit to be CIC.
Every.
Single.
One.
Maybe so, but at least one of them liked him as an officer:
"In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and
ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is intrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.
During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and third awards)."
George M. Elliot, LCDR."
From his FITREP.
h
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Can't believe you're still catching them on this one.
All using your personal definition of the unbearable lightness of being..... there.
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You may think it's a troll, but truth is like fishing with a light.
Next you'll be accusing me of being weaz. :)
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The "Swift Boat" guys are pissed at Kerry for speaking out against the war.
That is all. Here is the Cliff Note version.
Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Captain Charles Plumly, USN (retired) - "His turncoat performance in 1971" - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Andrew Horn - "came back to the stain of sewage that Mr. Kerry had thrown on us" - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Jeffrey Wainscott - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Robert Elder - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War
(not on the boat)
Joseph Ponder - Pissed about Kerry's Book (not on the boat)
Commander Grant Hibbard, USN - Says he saw the first wound, Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Lt. Col. James Zumwalt, USMC - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Bernard Wolff - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
David Wallace - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Captain George Elliott, USN - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Captain Adrian Lonsdale, USCG - We were winning the VN war, and Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
William Shumadine - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Richard O'Mara - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Steven Gardner - YAY! Actually says he was on the boat. Never once says Kerry lied. Says he was indecisive and placed them in danger.
Robert Brant - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
James Steffes - Pissed about Vietnam Veterans Against the War (not on the boat)
Sigh!.... How about we look at their (Bush & Kerry) plans for running the Country instead?
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This is a kinda funny thread.
Nash is arguing that these people could not have possibly known about kerry, despite the fact that kerry stood before congress and insisted he knew about all of them.
I find that ironic.
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Deja, I have the sneaking suspicion that you find everything ironic. You have a nose for it.
Liz hinted at it, and finally MT said it; these guys have a huge bone to pick that has nothing to do with anything involving boats and guns.
And this fact is being so conveniently overlooked....
The American Swifters for Democracy were assembled and are being financed by some rich GOP Texas dude. They are like the Backstreet Boys. Led by Lunatic-geek John O'Neill, they are nothing more than a modestly funded attack dog tarnishing the service of a fellow American veteran and bringing the divisiveness of the Vietnam era smack dab into the 21st Century. It's ridiculous and shameful. As the Vietnam War continues to rage on, apparently...
You can find irony in anything. If you were so inclined MiniD, you could find it here too.
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bone to pick?
Yeah.. I guess you could say that. But what you don't really seem to understand is that you use argument a to dismiss argument b, while insisting the other side can't do the same.
I fail to see what any of these people stand to gain 35 years after the fact. They aren't on trial. They aren't still serving in the military. There really is no reason for it. Unless... they still believe that kerry got up before congress and lied his bellybutton off. And... that kerry was a traitor.
Bone to pick? You'd really have to prove that... as opposed to just using it to dismiss everything.
And.. it is ironic nash. The fact that I noticed it (and notice it quite a bit from you) doesn't diminish that. You're perhaps one of the most circular arguers I've ever seen.
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Originally posted by Mini D
But what you don't really seem to understand is that you use argument a to dismiss argument b, while insisting the other side can't do the same.
There was no argument to begin with. So if any argument exists, it started first with (b), and I'm using (a) to refute it. So if you gotta prollem with that, why don't you also have a problem with argument (b)? Lack of it is telling....
I have to prove the "bone to pick"?
Well... I really don't think you need it. A good starting point is MT's post above.
If you want, I'll give you the zact quote from the one guy who was on Kerry's boat for a coupla months.... on the circumstances surrounding his decision to speak out about Kerry. It begins "I was driving home from work listening to Rush Limbaugh when my blood began to boil..."
Honestly Deja... you're picking a side as much as I am. You're not floating above it, simply pointing at one thing and calling "irony".... for the thing you choose to point at shows which dog in this fight is yours.
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Every one of Kerry's COs said he isn't fit to be CIC.
Every
Single
One
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By the way...
Originally posted by Mini D
There really is no reason for it. Unless... they still believe that kerry got up before congress and lied his bellybutton off. And... that kerry was a traitor.
Their book is not titled "Why we can't stand Kerry's Testimony" and does not talk about why that testomony was wrong.
They attack something else. His service. Not related. Total BS.
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Originally posted by Martlet
Every one of Kerry's COs said he isn't fit to be CIC.
Every
Single
One
Here is what his commanders said about Kerry in his fitness reports:
Lieutenant Commander George Elliott
In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.
During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).
Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard
Hibbard's evaluation was brief and incomplete because Hibbard oversaw Kerry's service for only about two weeks. Kerry's duty under Hibbard included "counter infiltration operations against Viet Cong forces. Engaged in combat operations." Hibbard marked a few performance categories, noting that Kerry's initiative, cooperation, and bearing ranked among the top few. But unlike other evaluators who wrote about specific actions by Kerry, Hibbard did not do so, providing this explanation: "The short period LTJG Kerry was attached to Coast Division 14 prevents further evaluation."
Captain Adrian Lonsdale
In the November 4, 1996, issue of South Coast Today, wrote: "Adrian Lonsdale remembers a young John F. Kerry as a naval officer who was a good debater, even back in his days in Vietnam. "'He and I and others used to have long discussions at the officers club,' said Mr. Lonsdale of Mattapoisett, a former Coast Guard officer who commanded a division in which the Massachusetts senator was attached back in 1969. 'They were very spirited discussions about the war and the politics back home.' "'He was opposed to the war but it didn't make any difference in his performance,' said the former owner and still instructor at Northeast Maritime Institute in New Bedford. 'He was a very good officer.' "Capt. Lonsdale was among a group of former Vietnam veterans the Massachusetts Democrat brought to the Charlestown navy yard recently to rebut a Boston Globe column that raised questions about Sen. Kerry's Vietnam service, particularly the Silver Star he won. "Mr. Lonsdale was in charge of a two-division flotilla opereating [sic] out of Phu Quoc, a big island near the Cambodian border. One division was made up of Swift boats, fast 50-foot offshore boats, while the other was composed of 82-foot Coast Guard patrol boats."
Note this is not a fitness report
Admiral Zumwalt
Admiral Zumwalt signed Kerry's silver star recommendation. In 1996, he defended John Kerry in the midst of a close political campaign. Admiral Zumwalt is deceased, his son decided to speak on his behalf.
Captain Charles Plumly
Kerry was under his command for a brief time. There are no reports from him about Kerry from 1969.
Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott
Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively:
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.
Captain Allen W. Slifer
October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer: "A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising. "
Admiral Walter F. Schlech
March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
"... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career."
Captain E.W. Harper, Jr
September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:
LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.
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Originally posted by Nash
By the way...
Their book is not titled "Why we can't stand Kerry's Testimony" and does not talk about why that testomony was wrong.
They attack something else. His service. Not related. Total BS.
Why's it BS? They were there. O'Dell saw what Kerry got his medal for. He said it was undeserved. Another put a bandaid on the wound he got a purple heart for.
He was wounded 3 times in four months, didn't miss any time for any of the wounds, then shipped out of NAM as soon as he could.
How many other swift boat vets did that?
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I don't know how many. Do you? Is it unusual? I don't know that. Do you? Are the things you're basing your conclusion on true? I don't know, do you?
O'Dell says he didn't deserve The Silver Star. Nice for him. I don't know what qualifications O'Dell has for judging the merits of the awarding of the Silver Star. Is he the only one that has a problem with awarding Kerry the Silver Star? If so, why? Also, why is his opinion given greater weight by you than those other than O'Dell that say he deserved it?
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Originally posted by Nash
I don't know how many. Do you? Is it unusual? I don't know that. Do you? Are the things you're basing your conclusion on true? I don't know, do you?
O'Dell says he didn't deserve The Silver Star. Nice for him. I don't know what qualifications O'Dell has for judging the merits of the awarding of the Silver Star. Is he the only one that has a problem with awarding Kerry the Silver Star? If so, why? Also, why is his opinion given greater weight by you than those other than O'Dell that says he deserved it?
Bronze Star.
Because every single one of Kerry's COs say he isn't fit to be CIC.
Every
Single
One.
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Every... Single.... One...
Well Martlet, you've been saying that... Can you link me?
Lets say for the sake of argument that it's true.
Isn't it odd to you that these CO's gave Kerry good Fitreps (see above), yet 35 years later not only are they seemingly contradicting themselves wrt to Kerry's fitness, but seem to think they are qualified to judge someones fitness wrt to the qualifications of being a President, not to mention 35 years and no contact later?
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Originally posted by Nash
Every... Single.... One...
Well Martlet, you've been saying that... Can you link me?
Lets say for the sake of argument that it's true.
Isn't it odd to you that these CO's gave Kerry good Fitreps (see above), yet 35 years later not only are they seemingly contradicting themselves wrt to Kerry's fitness, but seem to think they are qualified to judge someones fitness wrt to the qualifications of being a President, not to mention 35 years and no contact later?
Go to swiftvets.com . It not only shows you the letter signed by every single one of kerry's COs, but it also teaches you how to read fitreps.
Every Single One of the people assigned to observe and evaluate Kerry say he isn't fit to serve as CIC.
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kerry testified in front of congress as an expert witness in regards to vietnam war atrocities. Do you agree with this nash? Don't ignore it.. answer it.
As for "is this normal.. I don't know?". No... it wasn't. I seriously doubt you could find more than a handfull of people that left vietnam after 3 purple hearts with only a scar to show for it. I am finding you to be either incredibly naive or deliberately ignorant. If you don't have an understanding as to how to use buracracy to get something done, you really shouldn't be arguing on the subject. Really. Because this whole issue is based solely on it.
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Say what you want but Kerry is just too damn ugly to be president.
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Originally posted by Mini D
kerry testified in front of congress as an expert witness in regards to vietnam war atrocities. Do you agree with this nash? Don't ignore it.. answer it.
I've both read/seen his testimony a few times. I actually don't know what he was testifying about. War atrocities? The situation in 'Nam overall?... I just don't know, now that you mention it.
If you don't have an understanding as to how to use buracracy to get something done, you really shouldn't be arguing on the subject. Really. Because this whole issue is based solely on it.
To be honest, I suck at using buracracy. Why does that make me unfit to argue re The Backstreet Swifters?
But are you telling me that Kerry is good at using buracracy, and therefore is unfit to be controlling one?
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Thanks for the link Martlet. I'd love to hear you answer the qustion I posed:
"Isn't it odd to you that these CO's gave Kerry good Fitreps (see above), yet 35 years later not only are they seemingly contradicting themselves wrt to Kerry's fitness, but seem to think they are qualified to judge someones fitness wrt to the qualifications of being a President, not to mention 35 years and no contact later?"
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>>I seriously doubt you could find more than a handfull of people that left vietnam after 3 purple hearts with only a scar to show for it.<<
Yea - Kerry is incredibly shrewd. He managed to dodge Viet Nam by actually pulling two tours there, getting in shooting range of VC's, and getting medals. Yes lets stuff ourselves on the sheep food being served up with corporate money from Texas.
Your choice. Walk the left sheep trail or the right sheep trail. If you ain't fluffy, you might start following the corporate money trail in both candidate's campaign, and forget about this ridiculous noodle measuring BS. Just how frigging dumb has the average American become? Do you think this matters at all? Its not Watergate - its spin and defy you to factually present it as anything else. He got medals! MOVE ON.
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Originally posted by Mini D
kerry testified in front of congress as an expert witness in regards to vietnam war atrocities. Do you agree with this nash? Don't ignore it.. answer it.
http://ice.he.net/~freepnet/kerry/graphics/Kerry_1971_Testimony.pdf
I don't agree with it. Nowhere does it say he is an "expert" witness.
The testimony in question starts on page four of the pdf file. The atrocities cited are one paragraph out of 30 pages of testimony and he was telling about how it was described to him BY OTHERS in the Winter Soldier investigation. He didn't accuse and only attributed (he was a moderator in the investigation).
Twist it as you will.
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Read more than just that.
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Like what?
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Read more than Kerry's complete testimony?
As Nash said, like what?
Karl Rove's spin on it?
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Kerry has said a lot more than his sentate testimony in 1971.
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Originally posted by Nash
Thanks for the link Martlet. I'd love to hear you answer the qustion I posed:
"Isn't it odd to you that these CO's gave Kerry good Fitreps (see above), yet 35 years later not only are they seemingly contradicting themselves wrt to Kerry's fitness, but seem to think they are qualified to judge someones fitness wrt to the qualifications of being a President, not to mention 35 years and no contact later?"
First, go back to that link and read the analysis of the fitreps by the people that wrote them. Then see where it says only the good fitreps were posted, and the ones they wrote which included what an egghead he was aren't there.
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Nah, I don't think you're Weaz; not enough ad hominem.
I think you're a reasonably intelligent guy, which is why I figure you're trolling. The light you're fishing with is the flash when the dynamite goes off.
You use the enlisted guyss "being there in the boat" as the only way any of these guys could know Kerry. You dismiss his fellow officers that were his squadronmates. You're smart enough to realize that he did not fraternize with the enlisted guys very much outside of "duty hours". His non-duty hours he spent with his fellow officers. He shared quarters with his fellow officers, he partied in the O-Club with his fellow officers, he had philosophical, political, every-day-life discussions with his fellow officers AND his fellow officers were on the same patrols he went on, albeit in other boats perhaps a few hundred yards away, performing the same mission he was performing.
Yep, no way his fellow officers could know anything about him.
Like all the crew commanders in my outfit didnt' know anything else about all the other crew commanders.
You're hypothesis here is ludicrous; but it's brilliant the way you've kept you're definition of being there completely on your own terms.
It's all fine, except that you're smart enough to know that and are just fishing with it. Which is fine too, except you're denying it; heck you've got an "any species, unlimited catch" BBS license.
Maybe somebody is buying that act but I'm not.
Still, it's a marvelous haul; if the tuna keep biting, you'll be a veritable Midas of BBS gold when you dock and sell the catch.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Every single CO opposes Kerry either because of his anti-war protesting or politics. Let's face it; the Democrats have not exactly been the favourite political party of the military. However those same COs awarded Kerry the Silver Star and Bronze Star, your nation's second and third highest military award for valour in combat ... of course at the time they didn't know he was going to protest the war, or become a Democrat presidential candidate.
Really? That isn't what they said. They say he's unfit to be CIC. You must have some inside information. Would you care to share it?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well then they must have some inside information. Do they say why he is unfit for command, or do they just attack his military service. Ah ... I see. That would be the latter.
As usual, you're flapping your pie hole based on assumptions rather than going to see for yourself first.
They actually have an extensive list detailing why they feel he is unfit to be CIC.
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What really happened to Kerry in Vietnam... (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=126253)
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Originally posted by GScholz
There you go attacking his military service again. Nothing to do with his fitness for command ... otherwise you wouldn't have a drunk-driving, AWOL National Guardsman as president.
AWOL? I must have missed that. Can you show my the sentencing call?
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Ah... OK... I got it.
Testimony... he only told other people's stories... when he TESTIFIED before congress. "Do you swear that what you're about to say is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"
Why was Kerry testifying in front of congress. Anyone? Nash? gscholz?
Nah... he's not being treated as an expert witness. They ask everyone to testify in front of congress. yes. that's it.
I find it odd what is so off-handedly dismissed, yet so beligerently refuted. Nobody could have possibly known kerry very well unless they served with him... unless you want to cite the fitness reports, which must have been accurate depictions by people that never served with him and just don't know him. Yes... that's a completely logical aproach.
Toad hit the nail on the head. Nash has his own definitions and criteria that must be met. It doesn't really make much sense, but he seems to stick with it.
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I can't believe people are going to beat this horse about Kerry's deserving or not deserving medals and whether that makes him an unfit CIC.
When are we going to get to George W.'s alcoholism and cocain use?
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Originally posted by GScholz
That was too easy. You shouldn't go on the defensive so quickly Martlet.
Please continue your favourite national pastime gentlemen. Mudslinging.
Is it time for the Second American Civil War yet? Might be less painful than your elections.
Defensive? I just saved us 3 pages of arguing. Call you on your accusations, asking for proof, knowing you can't provide it.
Bingo, we can now establish you are full of crap and make up facts, so we can write off what you say as more lies. Now that that's out of the way, back to the original topic.
There is contention that Kerry DIDN'T earn his Silver Star. Did anyone read the circumstances surrounding it? I reprinted a copy of the rebuttal letter to radio stations. Pretty interesting read.
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Toad/MiniD - since you're both saying basically the same thing....
Isn't it nice that you want to argue style, and get me to my loosen up the parameters a bit here... Yet, both of you don't seem willing to wanna even acknowledge the fact that this is pure politics, and that these guys have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with how Kerry's behaviour on a boat somehow translates into fitness for the CiC gig some 35 years later.
Pardon me for advocating for one side while (and who's kidding who?) you're doing the exact same thing. Don't tell me how to do my job. :D
Or if you wanna get me to budge, hows about you go first?
As it is... okay fine... The officers not on his boat would know Kerry and be perfectly entitled to write a book along the lines of:
"It was with a cool, almost calculated detachement that Kerry stepped into the OC and ordered the first beer of the night".
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Yet, both of you don't seem willing to wanna even acknowledge the fact that this is pure politics, and that these guys have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with how Kerry's behaviour on a boat somehow translates into fitness for the CiC gig some 35 years later.
But will yiou admit that your side believe his service is a valid indicator of his fitness to be cic... Or maybe I was just watching a different John Kerry is war hero convention than you were..
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Originally posted by Nash
Toad/MiniD - since you're both saying basically the same thing....
Isn't it nice that you want to argue style, and get me to my loosen up the parameters a bit here... Yet, both of you don't seem willing to wanna even acknowledge the fact that this is pure politics, and that these guys have an axe to grind that has nothing to do with how Kerry's behaviour on a boat somehow translates into fitness for the CiC gig some 35 years later.
Pardon me for advocating for one side while (and who's kidding who?) you're doing the exact same thing. Don't tell me how to do my job. :D
Or if you wanna get me to budge, hows about you go first?
As it is... okay fine... The officers not on his boat would know Kerry and be perfectly entitled to write a book along the lines of:
"It was with a cool, almost calculated detachement that Kerry stepped into the OC and ordered the first beer of the night".
You don't want to read anything that contradicts your comfort fact base. It's all right there for you to see. You're arguing from a position of ignorance and you don't even know it. Here's a few examples of people NOT on Kerry's boat, but in a position to speak about him:
"(ii) The Bronze Star Lie
As recounted in the attached affidavits of three on-scene participants (and verified by many others present) Kerry's operating report, Bronze Star story, and subsequent "no man left behind" story are a total hoax on the Navy and the nation. As recounted in the affidavits of Van Odell (Exhibit 6), Jack Chenoweth (Exhibit 7), and Larry Thurlow (Exhibit 10) (and verified by every other officer present and many others), a mine went off under PCF 3 -- some yards from Kerry's boat. The force of the explosion disabled PCF 3 and knocked several sailors, dazed, into the water. All boats, except one, closed to rescue the sailors and defend the disabled boat. That boat -- Kerry's boat -- fled the scene. After a short period, it was evident to all on the scene that there was no additional hostile fire. Thurlow began the daring rescue of disabled PCF 3, while Chenoweth began to pluck dazed survivors of PCF 3 from the water. Midway through the process, after it was apparent that there was no hostile fire, Kerry finally returned, picking up Rassman who was only a few yards from Chenoweth's boat which was also going to pick Rassman up. Each of the affiants (and many other Swiftees on the scene that day) are certain that Kerry has wholly lied about the incident. Consider this: How could the disabled PCF abandon the scene of the mine? Why did Kerry have to "return" to the scene?
Kerry's account of this action, which was used to secure the Bronze Star and a third Purple Heart, is an extraordinary example of fraud. Kerry describes "boats rcd heavy A/W and S/A from both banks. Fire continued for about 5000 meters." Exhibit 17. In other words, the boats went through a double gauntlet at about 50 yards distance that was 3.2 miles long (comparable to Seminary Ridge at Gettysburg on two sides), and yet none of the other boats within feet of Kerry's boat heard a shot or suffered an injury after the PCF 3 mine explosion, except for John Kerry's buttocks rice wound of earlier origin.
Clearly, Van Odell is right when he says, "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star . . . I know. I was there. I saw what happened." As Jack Chenoweth swore, "his account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day." Most poignantly, Larry Thurlow, whose brave actions saved the PCF 3 boat that day after Kerry fled, has the right to say, "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry."
Read the reprint here (http://dogsnot.net/mt/archives/000465.html#more)
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The neat thing about all of this, is it is US Citizens who are the ones that go into the poll and vote on the first Tuesday in November.
Just sayin........
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But will yiou admit that your side believe his service is a valid indicator of his fitness to be cic... Or maybe I was just watching a different John Kerry is war hero convention than you were..
Sure, of course it is an indicator, and Kerry is using it.
As far as I'm concerened, merely signing up and going over there is an indication of something, let alone the rest of it.
But if Kerry were merely running on his Vietnam experience alone, well, there's thousands more vets better qualified to be CiC if that's the only criteria to judge fitness.
It is one aspect. Yet on the other side, we're to believe that this one aspect is the sole criteria for judging his fitness. What's the title of the book?
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"(i) The Purple Heart Lie
Kerry's third Purple Heart was his ticket home. It also was much of the basis of his Bronze Star, repeating "his bleeding arm" and shrapnel wound from the mine story. The problem is that his operating report was a total lie since Kerry's shrapnel wound "in the buttocks" came not from a mine at all as he falsely reported, but at his own hand. Larry Thurlow, an officer on shore with Kerry that day, recounts that Kerry's shrapnel wound came not from any mine, but from a self-inflicted wound when Kerry (with no enemy to be seen) threw a concussion grenade into a rice pile and stayed too close. See Exhibit 10, ¶ 3. This "brown rice" incident with rice/shrapnel lodged in Kerry from his own grenade is also recounted by James Rassman, a Kerry supporter and "the no man left behind" on page 105 of John F. Kerry: The Complete Biography By The Boston Globe Reporters Who Know Him Best, by Michael Kranish, Brian C. Mooney, and Nina J. Easton (New York: Public Affairs, 2004) (the "Kranish book"). See Exhibit 21.
Most surprisingly, John Kerry himself (while falsely reporting to the Navy and public that he suffered a shrapnel wound from a mine explosion so as to get a third Purple Heart and go home) reflected in his own journal that his buttocks' wound came, not from any mine but, rather, from a grenade tossed into a rice cache by himself or friendly troops (in the absence of any enemy fire). "I got a piece of small grenade in my bellybutton from one of the rice bin explosions." Exhibit 15, Tour, at 313; see also Exhibit 15, Tour, at 317. "Kerry . . . also had the bits of shrapnel and rice extracted from his backside." See also the sworn statement of participants that there was no hostile fire (Exhibits 6, 7, and 10). It also should be noted that the rice extracted from Kerry's backside could hardly be the result of an underwater mine, as Kerry claimed in his operating report.
The conclusion is inescapable: that Kerry lied by reporting to the Navy that he had been wounded by shrapnel in his backside from an enemy mine when in reality he negligently wounded himself and then lied about the wound in order to secure a third Purple Heart and a quick trip home."
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Originally posted by Nash
Sure, of course it is an indicator, and Kerry is using it.
As far as I'm concerened, merely signing up and going over there is an indication of something, let alone the rest of it.
But if Kerry were merely running on his Vietnam experience alone, well, there's thousands more vets better qualified to be CiC if that's the only criteria to judge fitness.
It is one aspect. Yet on the other side, we're to believe that this one aspect is the sole criteria for judging his fitness. What's the title of the book?
What was featured more prominently at the DNC, his 4 month long vietnam experience or his 20 years in the Senate?
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Did Kerry work the system to leave Nam early? Probably. Who wouldn't, if you could? He was well connected, and smart enough to manipulate the system. All the men who testify for and against him probably believe exactly what they are saying. Opinion and perspective are surely influenced by personal views. I know mine are. You can come to rational conclusions, but it isn't easy to admit them if they go against what you WANT to be true.
The Tens of thousands of other Folks who did their Duty in spite of the fact NOBODY wants to fight a war.
Speaking from personal experience, Medals for Valor ESPECIALLY Bronze Stars with "V" don't add up to whole lot. I got one for going back into an ambush kill zone under fire to get some guys out whose vehicle took an RPG hit. It was my job. What was a going to do, Let them die?? Another guy I work with got one for killing 3 AQ with his hands after his weapon was struck and no longer functioned. Big deal. It was his job, what we he going to do, give up and die? What matters most is how the guys you work with feel about you.
I pass that guy I helped in the Hallway, his face lights up and he never fails to take a moment to see how my life is going.
That is worth more than any trinket could ever hope.
We have some really outstanding officers and men. We also have one who got the same Medal yet never stepped out of the Firebase. All because he was a "Commander", one out 36 other Commanders, and he didn't do a thing yet got the award. They guy lost Friendships over it and the respect of the community. The medal was more important to him. BTW he was the commander, so he put himself in for the award! He got his medal.
Kerry is a **** cut from the same cloth, who helped create a situation were everyone who died in Vietnam sacrificed for nothing.
Crumpp
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Yeah, what we're saying is that if you get to define all the terms, winning any debate is pretty easy.
That's not "style"; unless dynamiting fish in a barrel is your "style".
Like it or not, that's what you're doing. Sure has nothing to do with open debate.
Perhaps the funniest bit so far is Martlet calling you on the "35 years ago" gambit. Shack.
Opinions on incidents 35 years ago that support your position are admissable but Opinions on incidents 35 years ago that don't support your position are invalid. Define the terms, own the debate. And only Martlet called you on it. Nice job.
And you see this as some triumph?
Again, I KNOW you're smarter than that, so you HAVE to be trolling to amuse yourself. I mean, you've made a few previous posts on how you use the BBS to basically stir the ......soup.... and challenge yourself.
[Nash]you don't seem willing to wanna even acknowledge the fact that this is pure politics,
You don't seem to have noticed that I have not "debated" this "issue" at all in this thread. My comments have all been made with respect to your fishing expedition, because I can't believe your serious here. Particularly with you defining the debate and ruling out anything that doesn't support your "lure". (IE: the 35 years thing...... cheez... that's classic!)
Pure Politics??? Say it ain't so, Shoeless Joe! Fer reel? I'm simply amazed at this blinding insight. You can find my take on this issue in another thread. Search for Toad, in the O-Club with the phrase "junior officers". With that clue, you will WIN the GAME! and know what I think about all this.
[Nash]Kerry stepped into the OC
Puhleez! Again with the defining of terms. With this quote you're either illuminating your lack of military experience or just tossing another red herring into the chum line. Maybe both, I guess.
Still, you've done well with your latest Friday Night Fishing. I look forward to next week's topic when you again toss out a bait.
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Heh.... How many posts now and all ya can do is talk about how I argue? Nothin' to say on the subject? Well I'm afraid you and I have run out of things to talk about. Particularly funny is how you come to the conclusion that I think something's a triumph. Like what, I win the internet or something? That's not exactly up there in my thought process, pardner.
If you wanna make this about me, start another thread or something. It's OT. On the otherhand, if ya gots something to add here, fire away. I suspect you aren't doing that because you recognize this for the crap it is.
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Originally posted by Nash
Heh.... How many posts now and all ya can do is talk about how I argue? Nothin' to say on the subject? Well I'm afraid you and I have run out of things to talk about. Particularly funny is how you come to the conclusion that I think something's a triumph. Like what, I win the internet or something? That's not exactly up there in my thought process, pardner.
If you wanna make this about me, start another thread or something. It's OT. On the otherhand, if ya gots something to add here, fire away. I suspect you aren't doing that because you recognize this for the crap it is.
I've had plenty to say on the subject. You can't refute it, though, so you just ignore it.
You should change your avatar to "ostrich"
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Hey Crumpp,
Thank You.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What was featured more prominently at the DNC, his 4 month long vietnam experience or his 20 years in the Senate?
Probably his Vietnam stint. That combined with his Senate experience probably made up about 2% of what was featured.
But I'm not blind to the politics of the whole thing... au contraire mon frere... Seems I'm the only one that wants to face it.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What was featured more prominently at the DNC, his 4 month long vietnam experience or his 20 years in the Senate?
Just FYI--His swift boat stuff was his *second* military tour.
h
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I deserve a fuggin' medal for reading this thread. :D
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Originally posted by Horn
Just FYI--His swift boat stuff was his *second* military tour.
h
Wrong.
Thanks for playing, though.
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Nash:
Particularly funny is how you come to the conclusion that I think something's a triumph. Like what, I win the internet or something? That's not exactly up there in my thought process, pardner.
Do tell then, just exactly what was the purpose of this thread? An honest search for knowledge? To convince the unconvinceable? To defend truth, justice, Kerry and the American Way?
What was your pure and noble thought process when you first set finger to keyboard in this thread? Enquiring minds want to know!
*****
Anyway, I'm talking about how you fish.
You're certainly not "debating" the subject you introduced.
Nothing to add here on the "subject"? Correct. I said it all in the other thread that actually did feature some debate on this subject.
I decided not to get tossed in the livebox on this particular episode of Nash's Friday Night Fishing Follies. So I just congratulated you on your mastery of the BBS rod and reel.
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Thanks Midnight Target,
Point was to illustrate that having a few medals means nothing. The community you earned them in knows the deal. I work pretty closely with the modern day "Swifties". The boys of the Special Boat Platoon are a pretty tight nit group.
If one of their own was running for the highest office in the land and deserved the job, I have no doubt they would support him. At the very least the vast majority would if their reputation was good.
The whole community is very much reputation driven. Rank is not nearly as important as your reputation. Your reputation comes from your actions. People care about deeds not words.
Crumpp
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Okay yeah yer right Toad, this was about winning at the internet.
Anyways, now I literally AM gone fishing... Woot!
Back later tonight - y'all behave!
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Originally posted by Martlet
Wrong.
Thanks for playing, though.
Try some research before you spew ignorant one.
"John Kerry enlisted in the Navy in 1966. After completing Naval Officer Candidates School, he began his first tour of duty on the USS Gridley, a guided-missile frigate in the waters adjacent to Vietnam."
h
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Be honest, at least with yourself, Nash.
None, Zero, Nada...
Not one of these Swift Boat WhateverThey'reCalled ever served with John on any swift boat. Not a single one of them.
None of these guys were witness to any event they describe in their book.
I didn't know that...
What's WAS the purpose of that statement? What sort of replies did you anticipate? You had to have a purpose for putting that up... what was it?
Especially, correct me if I'm wrong here, since the second part about "witness" is not true. Weren't a few of ths Swift Vets present, albeit in nearby boats on the same misson, at many times in Kerry's 4 month career in Swifts?
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Originally posted by Horn
Try some research before you spew ignorant one.
"John Kerry enlisted in the Navy in 1966. After completing Naval Officer Candidates School, he began his first tour of duty on the USS Gridley, a guided-missile frigate in the waters adjacent to Vietnam."
h
And where did he go in the middle of his Gridley tour?
Learn to read.
Assuming we allow you to consider each duty station a "Vietnam Tour", the reality is even adding both tours together he had less than 6 months anywhere NEAR Vietnam.
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Originally posted by Martlet
And where did he go in the middle of his Gridley tour?
Learn to read.
Assuming we allow you to consider each duty station a "Vietnam Tour", the reality is even adding both tours together he had less than 6 months anywhere NEAR Vietnam.
What a maroon. If you are going to smear his military service, at least get it right.
"In 1968, John Kerry began his second tour of duty, and volunteered to serve on a Swift Boat, one of the most dangerous assignments of the war."
Do the math. If you can. Not a "duty station" (whatever that is) but a second military tour. Looks to me as if he did 2 years (incl/ school) '66-'68, then after '68, got out early using 1300.39.
h
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Big difference between a year spent on a Frigate and a year spent in the Jungle. He spent four months actually putting himself in harms way. During that time he found a loophole and got himself out ASAP. I know men that have cut the bandages off their wounds to rejoin their comrades cause they thought a fight was coming up and they didn't want to be left behind in an Aid Station. They wanted to be with their buddies.
Kerry is tooting his own horn.
Only a couple of Politicians have impressed me with their Military Service. John F. Kennedy, Bob Dole, George Bush Senior, and Senator McClain are a few I respect the quality of their service. Senator McClain for example could draw upon plenty of sevice members who would back his quality of service. Yet his character doesn't allow him to cheapen that service. I don't agree with his politics but I know where he has been and what he has done. I respect him for it.
If Kerry was half the serviceman his campaign claims him to be then the Swift boat veterans would be backing him. Especially if there was any truth to his allegations of criminal conduct during the war.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Big difference between a year spent on a Frigate and a year spent in the Jungle. He spent four months actually putting himself in harms way. During that time he found a loophole and got himself out ASAP. I know men that have cut the bandages off their wounds to rejoin their comrades cause they thought a fight was coming up and they didn't want to be left behind in an Aid Station. They wanted to be with their buddies.
Not to put too fine a point on it but it was a rare Navy officer that spent a year in the jungle.
I think we can all agree that he's not Rambo.
h
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Originally posted by Horn
What a maroon. If you are going to smear his military service, at least get it right.
"In 1968, John Kerry began his second tour of duty, and volunteered to serve on a Swift Boat, one of the most dangerous assignments of the war."
Do the math. If you can. Not a "duty station" (whatever that is) but a second military tour. Looks to me as if he did 2 years (incl/ school) '66-'68, then after '68, got out early using 1300.39.
h
How about some links? You obviously no nothing about military service, since you don't even know what a duty station is. I bet the person you are quoting doesn't either. Or it's Kerry himself.
He did less than 6 months total anywhere NEAR Vietnam.
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Originally posted by Martlet
How about some links? You obviously no nothing about military service, since you don't even know what a duty station is. I bet the person you are quoting doesn't either. Or it's Kerry himself.
He did less than 6 months total anywhere NEAR Vietnam.
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html
He served two military tours. VN was the second one. Here ya go--the FITREPs are there too. Please find data to the contrary--bet you can't--fact remains he spent from '66-70 in the service--I know how that must irk you.
I really don't know anything about military service--I was only a civ. contractor to the Navy/Army for 15 years. You are calling two separate tours a "duty station" perhaps it is you that is clueless? LOL.
h
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Originally posted by Horn
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service_timeline.html
He served two military tours. VN was the second one. Here ya go--the FITREPs are there too. Please find data to the contrary--bet you can't--fact remains he spent from '66-70 in the service--I know how that must irk you.
I really don't know anything about military service--I was only a civ. contractor to the Navy/Army for 15 years. You are calling two separate tours a "duty station" perhaps it is you that is clueless? LOL.
h
You don't even know what a duty station is. Emptying the porta potty's on base as a civilian really doesn't make you an expert. Yet you quote Hanoi John as a source on himself.
Here's a tip. Actually read this entire thread. Then you'll see that evidence about Hanoi John's fitreps has already been discussed, so you don't need to present the exact same argument that has already been countered.
When you're done with that, go find out what a duty station is. Then you'll realize that while Kerry may have been in the service from 66 to 70, his "two tours" in Nam added up to less than 6 months with only 3 1/2 actually IN Nam.
When you're done with THAT, go read the eye witness accounts of Kerry's cowardice, misrepresentation, and fraudulent self-promotion.
THEN maybe we can continue the conversation, rather than re-hash conversations that have already taken place.
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In the interest of "just the facts, ma'am":
From Kerry's own website:
February 18, 1966 Kerry formally enlists in the U.S. Navy
He goes to various stateside schools as everybody did.
June 8, 1967 Kerry reports to USS Gridley.
February 9, 1968 to June 6, 1968 Gridley spends time in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand. returns to US in June.
July 20, 1968 - November 1968 Kerry attends stateside school.
November 17, 1968 Upon completion of his training, Kerry reports for duty to Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14, Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam.
Early April, 1969 Kerry departs Vietnam.
So what you've got for his "tours" is
4 months on Gridley in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand, returning to US in June.
5 months total from sign-in to sign-out in Swifts.
Enough of this "did not, did so!" There's the facts according to Kerry himself.
Discuss.
;)
dates in red edited to correct timeline by ~ 40 more days on Gridley while ship was stateside. There ya go Horn; good catch. <\edit>
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All I know is that in about three more months, nobody will be talking about Kerry anymore, so none of this matters much to me.
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Originally posted by Martlet
You don't even know what a duty station is. Emptying the porta potty's on base as a civilian really doesn't make you an expert. Yet you quote Hanoi John as a source on himself.
Here's a tip. Actually read this entire thread. Then you'll see that evidence about Hanoi John's fitreps has already been discussed, so you don't need to present the exact same argument that has already been countered.
When you're done with that, go find out what a duty station is. Then you'll realize that while Kerry may have been in the service from 66 to 70, his "two tours" in Nam added up to less than 6 months with only 3 1/2 actually IN Nam.
When you're done with THAT, go read the eye witness accounts of Kerry's cowardice, misrepresentation, and fraudulent self-promotion.
THEN maybe we can continue the conversation, rather than re-hash conversations that have already taken place.
You said that he didn't serve two tours. I pointed out that you were incorrect. You still are. He served on the USS Gridley from June 8th 1967 until July 20th 1968. That's a thirteen month tour, right?
He then volunteered for VN & swift boats (try to follow here, I know it's hard for you--a SECOND tour) and went to school for it and as I said, went to VN and got out early under 1300.39.
...and by the way, all his records were released to his website.
Even us potty-emptying IT types can follow a timeline--with idiots like you voting for Bush, he doesn't need enemies.
h
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Originally posted by Toad
In the interest of "just the facts, ma'am":
From Kerry's own website:
February 18, 1966 Kerry formally enlists in the U.S. Navy
He goes to various stateside schools as everybody did.
June 8, 1967 Kerry reports to USS Gridley.
February 9, 1968 to June 6, 1968 Gridley spends time in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand. returns to US in June.
June - November 1968 Kerry attends stateside school.
November 17, 1968 Upon completion of his training, Kerry reports for duty to Coastal Squadron 1, Coastal Division 14, Cam Ranh Bay, South Vietnam.
Early April, 1969 Kerry departs Vietnam.
So what you've got for his "tours" is
4 months on Gridley in the Gulf of Tonkin off North Vietnam, at Subic Bay in the Philippines and in Wellington, New Zealand, returning to US in June.
5 months total from sign-in to sign-out in Swifts.
Enough of this "did not, did so!" There's the facts according to Kerry himself.
Discuss.
;)
According to the timeline, you've got it wrong--he was on Gridley for 13 months. He didn't get off the boat until July 20, 1968. Go read it agian.
h
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Originally posted by Horn
You said that he didn't serve two tours. I pointed out that you were incorrect. You still are. He served on the USS Gridley from June 8th 1967 until July 20th 1968. That's a thirteen month tour, right?
h
Um, no. That's a duty station.
Originally posted by Horn
...and by the way, all his records were released to his website.
Even us potty-emptying IT types can follow a timeline--with idiots like you voting for Bush, he doesn't need enemies.
h
No, all his records WEREN'T released to his website. He refused a request to release all his records.
Do you even have a working knowledge of the candidates you support? You should have stuck with emptying porta potties on base. This politics stuff is way over your head.
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pwned
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>>No, all his records WEREN'T released to his website. He refused a request to release all his records.
<<
Martlet, it seems the candidates military record and being untruthful about them is important to you. Is that true?
If yes, I think we should answer question about both candidates military record. Would that be fair?
Did George W. Bush jump to the head of line, skipping an 8-12 month waiting period to join the National Guard when his education deferment ran out?
Did he in fact request not to be sent overseas ?
Where the hell was George W. Bush in 1972 when he was supposed to be serving in Alabama. Did he *ever* report for duty?
Why was pilot George W. Bush grounded in 1972 - was it because he failed to appear for a physical after the National Guard began drug screening during physicals?
Did George W. Bush leave the National Guard 8 months before his enlisment was up?
Did George W. Bush have a cocaine possession charge expunged from his record?
Was George W. Bush the only President of the United States with a past criminal record?
These are simple questions that require no spin.
Personaly, I think NONE of this matters - but obviously, you think it does - so lets look at both candidate's record.
BTW, anyone interested might google these terms...
+"George W. Bush" +cocaine
+"George W. Bush" +alcoholism
+"George W. Bush" +awol
+"George W. Bush" +dui
Then go back and substitute "John Kerry" for "George W. Bush."
Make up your own mind, be critical of the sources, and ask yourself if any deception is going on.
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Originally posted by Crumpp
He spent four months actually putting himself in harms way.
OK then...how long did Bush spend in combat in harms way?
Originally posted by Crumpp
Kerry is tooting his own horn.
--snip--
Senator McClain for example could draw upon plenty of sevice members who would back his quality of service. Yet his character doesn't allow him to cheapen that service. I don't agree with his politics but I know where he has been and what he has done. I respect him for it.
Do you recall the 2000 Primaries? McCain did plenty of tooting...so much so that Ann Coulter complained that his war service was his fall back when he didn't want to answer the tough questions.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/coulter022200.asp
Well, the Bush camp in 2000 did about the same smear campaign to McCain, who I also respect a great deal and voted for in the 2000 Primary.
After McCain slam-dunked Bush in the New Hampshire Primary, the gloves came off in South Carolina. They portrayed him as a Commie colaborator using "facts" given to them by Ted Sampley (name should be familiar...that is the same guy that has been smearing Kerry for a while and formed Vietnam Vets Against Kerry). They said that they only way he stayed alive for 5 years in the Hanoi Hilton was by colaborating with the enemy.
There were rumors started that McCain's mental state had been comprimised while a POW. McCain released his military records with psych evals to disprove that.
They also said that being a POW was not really a heroic action since you weren't really fighting the enemy while a prisoner. And so he really shouldn't be called a war hero.
They had veteran Tom Burch get up at a Bush rally and say, "Sen. McCain has abandoned the veterans. He came home and forgot us." But McCain had always been one of the most stallwart supporters of Vets while in office and went the extra mile to find the truth about MIAs in Vietnam.
While not related to his war record the worse offense by the Bush Boys was the "push poll" set up by Karl Rove. It asked the people of South Carolina if they would still be willing to vote for McCain if they knew he had a black child out of wedlock. BTW, McCain has an adopted child with very dark skin from Bangladesh...so, the image was set in voters minds that this child was his illiigetimate daughter. This was coupled by Richard Hand, Bob Jones University professor and Bush supporter, sending an e-mail to "fellow South Carolinians" stating that McCain had "chosen to sire children without marriage."
The McCain smear campaign is funded by the same folks funding the Kerry smear. It is a very slick propoganda machine.
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and pwned again.
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Originally posted by crowMAW
The McCain smear campaign is funded by the same folks funding the Kerry smear. It is a very slick propoganda machine.
All smear campaigns are slick when they can tell the truth.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't so.
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Originally posted by Martlet
All smear campaigns are slick when they can tell the truth.
Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't so.
Actually, I call it slick as in "Slick Willie". It is a campaign that can tell lies with a straight face and thinks it can get away with it with impunity.
So what you are saying is that you think it is true that being a POW and surviving for 5 years in one of the worst hell holes created by man is not heroic. That John McCain is really a commie and a Manchurian Candidate. That it is OK to perform misleading push polls and have your friends libel your political opponent.
What a model American you are...
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Originally posted by crowMAW
Actually, I call it slick as in "Slick Willie". It is a campaign that can tell lies with a straight face and thinks it can get away with it with impunity.
So what you are saying is that you think it is true that being a POW and surviving for 5 years in one of the worst hell holes created by man is not heroic. That John McCain is really a commie and a Manchurian Candidate. That it is OK to perform misleading push polls and have your friends libel your political opponent.
What a model American you are...
I didn't say that at all. You did. I disagree with much of what McCain states, but I think he's a great politician. This isn't about McCain. It's about Kerry. It's about the lies Kerry told and the people that were there that are exposing them.
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Originally posted by Martlet
This isn't about McCain. It's about Kerry. It's about the lies Kerry told and the people that were there that are exposing them.
Actually it's about The Backstreet Swifters of Mercy, so the same attack machine wot manufactured this boy band as the McCain smear, is highly on topic.
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Originally posted by Nash
Actually it's about The Backstreet Swifters of Mercy, so the same attack machine wot manufactured this boy band as the McCain smear, is highly on topic.
Then run with it. It doesn't change the facts. 234 vets who have knowledge of swift boats, served with Hanoi John, operated with Hanoi John, and/or were responsible for evaluating Hanoi John say he isn't fit to be CIC.
13 say he is.
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I have always had a large family and many friends. I have many many friends now.. I would say that I have always had many friends professional and personnal...
"From all our lifes journeys, the most important thing we can come away with is a good honest friend."
That quote (dunno who said it) has always meant a lot to me..
When I was 20 years old, even now, I'm quite positive there were not or are not over 50 people in my life that could give an accurate depiction of myself, my character, my thoughts, or my feelings or my true fitness mental or physical...
But, 234 can attain to Kerry's fitness.. No, there is no axe grinding here...
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
I have always had a large family and many friends. I have many many friends now.. I would say that I have always had many friends professional and personnal...
"From all our lifes journeys, the most important thing we can come away with is a good honest friend."
That quote (dunno who said it) has always meant a lot to me..
When I was 20 years old, even now, I'm quite positive there were not or are not over 50 people in my life that could give an accurate depiction of myself, my character, my thoughts, or my feelings or my true fitness mental or physical...
But, 234 can attain to Kerry's fitness.. No, there is no axe grinding here...
No, 234 can't. but every single one of his COs, who's job WAS to evaluate Kerry's fitness, says he isn't qualified. So don't others who served alongside him. Why do their opinions count less than the 13 he paraded on stage, one of which never served with him.