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General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Jasta on August 06, 2004, 09:15:44 PM

Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Jasta on August 06, 2004, 09:15:44 PM
I got called an "HO Dweeb" for the first time in my history of AH.

I have a message to those who want to complain every time about someone being an HO dweeb....


Stop Whining

I dont do it, and neither should you.

fin
Title: Re: Head-on Passes
Post by: Shane on August 06, 2004, 09:37:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jasta
Stop Whining
I dont do it, and neither should you.
fin


you just did.  whined that is.  

:aok
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Zazen13 on August 06, 2004, 09:47:34 PM
I'm not a big advocate of HO's. I try to avoid them at all costs because I will beat the average person 99% of the time any other way, and accepting HO's just gives the inferior pilot a greater chance than he deserves of downing me. But, I just got through reading a rather large manual for fighter pilots in the Pacific theater. It actually lists Head-Ons as one of the preferable shooting angles on Japanese fighter aircraft. It even goes so far as to explain in pretty great detail how exacly to maximize your chance of attaining a good Head-On solution (ie: using superior climb followed by a gravity assisted dive) and at what ranges to open fire.

So, it's pretty clear, HO'ing was an accepted and approved method of destroying enemy fighters so long as you had some sort of durability and firepower advantage in terms of effective range and/or lethality.

Zazen
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Jasta on August 06, 2004, 09:54:18 PM
technically shane, yes i am whining...

but i am whining about the whiners who like to whine about Head-ons.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Overlag on August 06, 2004, 09:59:09 PM
my problem with HO's is i try to be "nice" or "better" by NOT doing it, this often means i turn away from a HO making me a much bigger, and easier target.......where as if i had been a "newbie" "dweeb" or whatever, i might have survived......hell i might of even killed the guy.......:mad:
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Thunder on August 07, 2004, 01:28:22 AM
It used to be that if you shot a man in the back while he was running you were a coward. Since when did it become unmanly to face an opponent! John Wayne would not agree with this... Ya face  um at High Noon and shoot it out!:D
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: GRUNHERZ on August 07, 2004, 02:00:07 AM
HO's are stupid gamey nonsense. There isnt one instance of HO ever recorded in air combat history, real combat and not games..

I wish you HO dweebs would stop being such children and learn to fight like real men! Using ACM!!!

DWEEBS! :mad:
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: KurtVW on August 07, 2004, 02:15:48 AM
(this isn't aimed at Jasta, infact I don't think I've ever taken a shot at him...)

Sorry, When did this become an issue of Honor?

You know what, my feeling is - You point those things at me, you better be a better shot than I am, because I WILL NOT be hanging around to see if you are 'honorable'

I'll shoot your face on the first pass if I can, and thats because you are RED.  You are not my squadmate in the D.A.

You want a clean 'on my six' kill, you can call me into the D.A.

M.A means you are the bad guy and you get no slack from me... H.O or from the six, I will kill you if I get a chance.

So buy a box of tissues, and learn to use them.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: simshell on August 07, 2004, 02:27:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
HO's are stupid gamey nonsense. There isnt one instance of HO ever recorded in air combat history, real combat and not games..

I wish you HO dweebs would stop being such children and learn to fight like real men! Using ACM!!!

DWEEBS! :mad:


there is recorded interviews of real life pliots saying that they went for the HO

i saw one not to long ago of a spitfire ace shot some thing like over 20+ planes and said they would go for the HO evertime

are you saying that many of these great ww2 aces lie about them doing Head ons

o by the way yeager was shot down in a Head on with a FW190
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: GRUNHERZ on August 07, 2004, 02:56:35 AM
Dont make stuff up to explain you SUXXoR@63!!!!  :mad: :eek:
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: scott123 on August 07, 2004, 03:32:38 AM
Ho,where most certainly an excepted way of downing aircraft,during wwII.The Lufftwaffe,made a point of attacking B17,formations head on,as until the g version this was the weakest angle,THIS was THE way to down a 17.The Poles in 1940 also had good results,against the LW,although the RAF establishment thought it foolhardy.

 At the end of the day,it takes two to HO,and avoiding it,may make you more vulnerable.

 If your involved in a HO,avoid it or die like a man and reup,Kamikaze pilots HO aircraft carriers,no skill!..lol


War is not about skill,it's about killing,if you don't want to get killed,join a cocientious objectors sim..lol:rofl :rofl
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Redd on August 07, 2004, 03:39:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by KurtVW



Sorry, When did this become an issue of Honor?

I'll shoot your face on the first pass if I can,

... H.O or from the six, I will kill you if I get a chance.

So buy a box of tissues, and learn to use them.





Congratulations on helping to make the MA what it is today.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Thunder on August 07, 2004, 03:54:47 AM
Grunherz,

At the 2002 con we had a speaker that told us that he was HO'd and it was a pilots worst nightmare and none did it by choice.. but it DID happen!

Thunder
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Jasta on August 07, 2004, 07:18:44 AM
surprising amount of support for this thread.

thanks all.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: KurtVW on August 07, 2004, 09:49:02 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Redd
Congratulations on helping to make the MA what it is today.


Congratulations on parsing the whole post down to something out of context to make it work for your needs.  Do you work for Fox News or something?
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Grits on August 07, 2004, 10:01:12 AM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
HO's are stupid gamey nonsense. There isnt one instance of HO ever recorded in air combat history, real combat and not games..


Actually, as Zazen pointed out HO's were a matter of USN/USMC doctrine in the PAC.  One of VF-17's aces, Dan Cunningham, got 3 consecutive HO kills while following his wingman in a dive. As his wingman (who was ahead of him) would dive, the Zeke's would go vert to meet them, after his wingman passed Cunningham would HO the Zeke's on his way down.

I dont like them in the game any more than you do Grun, but they did happen in RL.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Widewing on August 07, 2004, 10:32:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Grits
Actually, as Zazen pointed out HO's were a matter of USN/USMC doctrine in the PAC.  One of VF-17's aces, Dan Cunningham, got 3 consecutive HO kills while following his wingman in a dive. As his wingman (who was ahead of him) would dive, the Zeke's would go vert to meet them, after his wingman passed Cunningham would HO the Zeke's on his way down.

I dont like them in the game any more than you do Grun, but they did happen in RL.


Indeed, head-on attacks were SOP for P-38 units in the ETO and MTO. The superior concentration of fire afforded the P-38 the option of this sort of attack. In general, the Luftwaffe pilots would evade, HOs, but consequently placed themselves at increased risk from the attacking Lightning's wingman.

In the SWPA, HO's were also SOP. Lindbergh shot down his one kill in a head-on attack. HO attacks against lightly armed fighters such as the Ki-43 were not only commonplace, but actually encouraged by local fighter commands (49th FG and 475th FG to be specific).

My regards,

Widewing
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: 68DevilM on August 07, 2004, 11:05:22 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
my problem with HO's is i try to be "nice" or "better" by NOT doing it, this often means i turn away from a HO making me a much bigger, and easier target.......where as if i had been a "newbie" "dweeb" or whatever, i might have survived......hell i might of even killed the guy.......:mad:


YEP!!! used to do the same thing:(  but now im starting to get more used to it and ill take a head on shot if it presents it self now and again.:aok
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Grits on August 07, 2004, 12:05:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Lindbergh shot down his one kill in a head-on attack.


Although none were officially credited, he also flew with VMF-214 and I believe he earned a kill with them also. Boyington's account of his first sortie with 214 was interesting in that he was wondering (Im paraphrasing here) "I wonder if this guy is really all that he is cracked up to be, or if its all hype" As soon as they took off, Lindbergh's handleing of the plane led him to say (again paraphrasing) "Yup, this guy is good, he's the real deal".
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Cobra412 on August 07, 2004, 12:57:23 PM
The book Allied Aces of WWII has instances of HOs and so does the book Into the Teeth of the Tiger.
Title: Boom!
Post by: TheflyingElk on August 07, 2004, 01:22:01 PM
SO here I am in my dainty little C-Hog, tooling around when a 262 Tried to sneak up on my poor defensless little Piggy, I dove into a canyon and dropped flaps made tight 180 when he came over the ridge to pounce Boom! Face shot:D  in that instance I would take the face shot everytime so yes the HO does have its place in the MA, Just my Humble observation for a Piggy rider:cool:
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: SunKing on August 07, 2004, 01:34:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by scott123


  and avoiding it,may make you more vulnerable.
 


I disagree.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: X2Lee on August 07, 2004, 01:35:56 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
I'm not a big advocate of HO's. I try to avoid them at all costs because I will beat the average person 99% of the time any other way, and firepower advantage in terms of effective range and/or lethality.

Zazen


Talk about blanket staments dweeb!

U wont even fight a lil wuss like me

Yer a bigger idiot than I thought
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Thunder on August 07, 2004, 02:01:19 PM
EXCERPTS FOR A WWII VETERAN

1943 - Somewhere in the South Pacific

(Capt. Forrest "HO Daddy" Gump)

Fights is like a box of chocolates, ya never now what yer goin ta get!

When ya got 3 or 4 vulchin girlymen gangin ya... it's OK ta punch one or two ov dem in da Toofers!

Moma told me, "Forrest", you can't Kill um unless yer gun is pointed at um. And never, never let um see yer lil tushie!
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Arlo on August 07, 2004, 02:15:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Grits
Although none were officially credited, he also flew with VMF-214 and I believe he earned a kill with them also. Boyington's account of his first sortie with 214 was interesting in that he was wondering (Im paraphrasing here) "I wonder if this guy is really all that he is cracked up to be, or if its all hype" As soon as they took off, Lindbergh's handleing of the plane led him to say (again paraphrasing) "Yup, this guy is good, he's the real deal".


If Lindbergh hadn't insisted on starting numerous anti-FDR threads before the war they would have made him a Colonel, at least. But, ironically, he probably wouldn't have gotten as much flight time.

And some of ya need to extract some Grun hooks, methinks. Though I probably would have related Danny Cunningham's story, as well, if ya hadn't beat me to it.

Take the ruddy solution! Any solution that presents itself! :D
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Mak333 on August 07, 2004, 02:23:39 PM
My theory, fire only when fired upon :aok
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Arlo on August 07, 2004, 02:26:03 PM
That theory will get you virtually dead very fast. :aok
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Mak333 on August 07, 2004, 02:26:46 PM
Yeah but atleast I wont be called a virtual HO dweeb =)

Cya in the virtual CT Arlo :D
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Arlo on August 07, 2004, 02:27:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Mak333
Yeah but atleast I wont be called a HO dweeb =)

Cya in the CT Arlo :D


:D
Title: Re: Head-on Passes
Post by: Tumor on August 07, 2004, 02:32:22 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jasta
I got called an "HO Dweeb" for the first time in my history of AH.

I have a message to those who want to complain every time about someone being an HO dweeb....


Stop Whining

I dont do it, and neither should you.

fin


You stop whining.  Wanna HO?  Fine by me, just be ready to take your lumps for resorting to weenie tactics.

I've yet to see someone called out for actually working to get a kill.  Nope, not once.

And Shane... I WILL HO you at every opportunity :)
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: mechanic on August 07, 2004, 02:43:13 PM
i think there are various different grades of the HO.

the two main types are:

1: two planes fly at each other from a large distance and keep flying straight at each other untill the HO is unavoidable.

outcome:

both planes damaged or possibly dead due to ramming.

conclusion:

this type of HO is skilless and avoidable and BORING.



2: two planes meet head on in a turn fight and are imediately in a HO situation due to close proximity and unavoidable manouvers.


outcome:
same as above but more importance is put on reaction time, accuracy, and pilot error.
both pilots have about 2 seconds to decide to HO, shoot striaght, and avoid the other plane.

conclusion:

this type of HO is much less avoidable and part of the unpredictable nature of combat flying.


personaly i try to avoid all HO.

back when i was a two week newbie (10 months ago or so) i would simply HO because it was all i could gain as far as a gun solution went.

HOs suck , but they are a valid tactic.

deal with it and re-plane with honour.


just my deux centimes

Batfink
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Arlo on August 07, 2004, 02:46:31 PM
Are collisions turned back on yet?
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: mechanic on August 07, 2004, 02:52:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Are collisions turned back on yet?



they got turned off!!!!???


i havnt played for two months from CPU issues.


THEY TURNED COLLISIONS OFF?????

i weas hoping they would turn friendly collisions on, not make the game LESS realistic.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Arlo on August 07, 2004, 03:01:42 PM
Sure seems like it. I haven't died from a collision since the last patch and I coulda swore I've flown through an enemy wing or two. No collisions is the only argument I have against HOs.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: mechanic on August 07, 2004, 03:06:40 PM
no friendly collisions and killshooter i can deal with.

but no collisions atall?

how else am i supposed to take out that last buff when im bingo ammo?

bat
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Arlo on August 07, 2004, 03:08:33 PM
Maybe it's just me. I'd have figured if others had noticed then someone woulda posted or contacted HTC by now. I didn't bother. I guess I ought to. No collision post coming.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Ghosth on August 07, 2004, 03:15:08 PM
Mechanic

# 2 is NOT a HO at all.

Its a forward quarter shot in the middle of a turn fight or ACM.
Lord I wish everyone would just get that straight..

Bore in coalt from 5k guns blazing from 1.2k out with nary a thought of manuver or ACM, THAT is a Head On.

And yes it DOES take 2 to do it. Smart pilots dive below his nose, barrel roll, kick rudder, setup seperation for lead turn  or  SOMETHING to spoil his shot while prepareing to reverse & kill him. While at the same time making yourself a hard target.

Of course if your packing 4x20 mm or even a 37mm why avoid? Kill em and be done with it. Sit back & wait for the whine.
 :)
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: KurtVW on August 07, 2004, 03:36:37 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ghosth
Mechanic


Of course if your packing 4x20 mm or even a 37mm why avoid? Kill em and be done with it. Sit back & wait for the whine.
 :)



BINGO.. That right there is what I was trying to say last night, except that my buzz made me type it a little differently :D

I don't go around looking for HO, but if someone wants to try the front end of my 190-A8 on for size, I'll happily give him a 4x 20mm 2x13mm reason to think about a different method next time.  Most planes don't survive that firestorm, and the 190 is a relatively small target..  More often than not I'll go home with little or no damage and 1 more kill on my scorecard.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: RTSigma on August 07, 2004, 04:12:35 PM
I will do anything and everything in my flying ability to score a kill. For each second you're up in the air amongst my wingmates, you're a threat. Call it weenie but remember, who is still flying?
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: rod367th on August 07, 2004, 04:36:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
HO's are stupid gamey nonsense. There isnt one instance of HO ever recorded in air combat history, real combat and not games..

I wish you HO dweebs would stop being such children and learn to fight like real men! Using ACM!!!

DWEEBS! :mad:




 Bet chuck Yeager would bare to differ. And many many recorded fights using ho  including 1 pilot who had his mechinac set plane up to crab. So enmey didn't know he was ho'ing...
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: GRUNHERZ on August 07, 2004, 04:45:09 PM
Argh what is this? Where is the outrage?  :D
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Grits on August 07, 2004, 04:51:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Though I probably would have related Danny Cunningham's story, as well, if ya hadn't beat me to it.


Yeah, I knew I had to be quick to beat you to that story. :)
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: 2shad4u on August 07, 2004, 05:53:27 PM
yeah...
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Xjazz on August 07, 2004, 06:10:37 PM
BTW

The real world pilots didnt need to deal with this (http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/netlag.htm)

You better read it before your next ONLINE HO death whine :rolleyes:
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Mak333 on August 07, 2004, 06:46:32 PM
I'm up for a HO anytime, just make sure you back up what your first shot puts out. Otherwise you be a dead man. :lol
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: xBarrelx on August 07, 2004, 07:15:30 PM
The greatest ace of all time even made an HO pass on a yak, granted he was greatly out numbered. HO's are a part of the game. Deal with it, or leave. Whining is useless and unneccessary. I'll offer anyone some time in the TA with me to learn some avoidance maneuvers.
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Arlo on August 07, 2004, 07:16:55 PM
Sideslip .... ole'!
Title: Head-on Passes
Post by: Redd on August 07, 2004, 07:18:32 PM
Everytime you go for the HO you give away the angles/adv to the other guy and are usually left with 2 options , die  -  or run away. Unless the other guy is a HO dweeb as well, of course - then you both probably die.

There are better ways to fly and plenty of threads on it in the help and training section