Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Creamo on June 11, 2001, 02:40:00 PM
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Aircraft Testing Criteria
Does anyone have information regarding testing procedures and guidelines to check accuracy of the various aircraft performance within AH?
The real aircraft when manufactured, or the nme planes when captured went through extensive testing, but that’s not what I’m looking for I don’t believe. I’d like a scaled down protocol for testing the virtual planes in Aces High for authenticity, but something a little less complex or involved/time consuming.
Im looking for GLARING mistakes that confirm discrepancies in the flight models. Certainly Pyro and crew do something to verify the numbers in the code, I’d like guidelines for testing.
The reason I ask is, the N1K2 debate isn’t even a debate anymore; it’s just one long witch-hunt. I can't say I care one way or another, just as long as the tests are done and facts are made, because the squeaking is becoming down right silly.
People have even been arguing that there is no way the Nik should have cannon with so many rounds. It’s getting hard in cases like that to argue, as if it’s somehow not fair in 1945 Japan had armed then that way. Then good old Stopmer3 informed me that you have to squeak to get things like the Nik perked, mentioning it worked with the F4UC. With that new info, I knew this mindless channel one banter will not cease, ever.
Soooo, to address the performance debate, I have been doing aircraft testing (well, trying tests on my own that I think would show performance), to find this elusive “E” retention and super “UFO” zoom climb of the N1K2 George. Well, mainly the George, but to check other aircraft as well.
(http://www.naval-air.org/The%20Aircraft/Color%20Pictures/N1K2-J.jpg)
Thing is, I must be doing something wrong, or this simple test is hiding something like zoom time, or something else that would skew performance. Also, I’m not timing the time to alt in this test, just at what ALT the aircraft reaches, and if it “hangs like a helicopter” or “UFO”.
Here’s what I did.
The Simple Test
I went offline, went to “Medium Alt Field” A4 in the Dueling Arena. I then loaded 4 aircraft - N1K2, 109G10, LA7 and a Yak9-U with 50% fuel, biggest ammo load (no wing mounted cannon for the G10).
After take off, I leveled at 5K until each aircraft reached it’s top speed of aircraft in full WEP.
Once there, I smoothly pulled the aircraft in a full up climb straight up vertical and set autopilot on “green” to take any control inputs I’d make out of the test. I let it climb, noting at what ALTITUDE each aircraft would stall out. I also noted if there were any abnormal “hanging on the prop” characteristics, but other than that time was not noted. I don’t have a stop watch. :)
Ok, so that’s just bare essentials testing of climb, but I think it is a good indication of how far a aircraft can climb at it’s level top speed at 5K, and also to find this helicopter/ufo stuff.
Results
Well, aside from the G10 just sky rocketing and me actually starting the climb early with it at 300kts indicated (not actual) and still accelerating. I found out something interesting.
1. AH has cool stall modeling. I got the Yak to almost flat spin me to impact had I not been at 10K.
2. In this test the N1K2 did not out climb ANY of the aircraft tested.
Conclusion
There need to be more tests, but if I was a betting man, noone, with a stopwatch, official testing method guide from the government or anyone else, is going to find this HUGE error in the N1K2 fm.
As the Typhon was recently tweakes in the roll issue, I have every reason to believe that HTC is not God on aircraft modelling, and there are probably mistakes here and there.
Thing is, people are confusing a great late war aircraft (under 20K anyway), with a good cannon punch, to a uber ride of death that does impossible things. It aint so.
So, can someone get me a better testing criteria so we can put this to rest?
[ 06-11-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Originally posted by Creamo:
So, can someone get me a better testing criteria so we can put this to rest?
No Creamo, we cant. Everyone knows that if they whiners didnt have the Niki to whine about then they would just move on to the Spit or the La7 or some other plane with some perceived anomaly that makes it an ubermonster.
After all....everyone knows its the plane that wins fights, not the pilot. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by sling322:
No Creamo, we cant. Everyone knows that if they whiners didnt have the Niki to whine about then they would just move on to the Spit or the La7 or some other plane with some perceived anomaly that makes it an ubermonster.
<shrug> Nothing alike. I flew all the planes in planeset, I flew against all of them. I know what I am saying, niki is the only plane I do not "feel" when flying against it. I keep 3d picture inside my head and can judge e and position of any planes even not seeing it, but with niki I am always wrong. It shall be some explanation.
Fariz.
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Oh, and heres the ALT they reached at point of stall. None of the aircraft "hung" there for any unreasonable amount of time, all departed flight.
G10 - 10,700
Yak9-U - 10,500
LA7 - 10,400
N1K2 - 9,700
Now time to get there may be a whole new ballgame, but in the Niki's case in looking for some oddity in zoom climb, even without a stop watch, it was obvious that not a problem.
Im just testing this hanging on the prop and ufo climbing ability Fariz, one test at a time. Explaining your "feelings" will indeed be a problem. :)
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if you really wanted to be useful in the tests of these airplanes heres the test data you would need to take:
1) maximum speed at altitudes
2) stall speed at altitudes
3) tightest steady turn without altitude loss at altitudes (note speed and g load)
the third one is the hard one to get since it requires a skilled pilot. basically, you need to keep the airplane at a constant altitude in a turn and then maintain as high a g load as possible while maintaining that altitude..... its pretty hard :) but the info is the most useful in "e retention"
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I suggest a very simple test:
1. Put aircraft at straight and level at a given altitude and course, say 5000 feet heading north.
2. Apply max throttle/WEP.
3. When a given speed achievable in level flight by all aircraft being compared, say 350 mph, is reached, break as hard as possible into a level turn.
4. Note speed after turning 180 degrees.
High e-retention a/c will maintain speed better, N1K may even accelerate :D
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The niki in the books i read was said to have a poor rate of climb and still not be able to dive to fast with out comming appart only in AH it climbs at 4k per min at just under 100 mph at 25% fuel and dives at 500 mph then pulls hi g turns at this speed and not only doesn't loose e but DOESN'T FALL APART LIKE IT SHOULD. IT WASN'T CAPIBLE OF HANDLING SPEEDS AMERICAN PLANES WHERE!!!
only in AH was The N1K2-J that big of a threat and you all begged to have the fuking CHOG perked because "there wern't that many made" and For some reason it NOW out performs the Dhog (because they changed the Dhog's performance.) and to all of you idiots who believe that garbage let me inform you that they were the same diddlyING PLANE!!!!
The CHOG was a Dhog that had internal 50's removed to make more room for 20mm ammo and externally mounted hispano's. They wern't used as often because hispano's where harder to come by than 50 cals and so was the ammo.
that is out of the mouth of an old f4u-A pilot that said he had flown with the exterior mounted hispano's configuration on his planes for a couple select missions. and that in 1944 the last "varrient" of the f4u-1 the latest d-models had a more power engine than it's pretocessors came out. The official c modle's most noticable diference was the alterations to the cockpit giving the pilot better visablility. though they also had 4 20mm cannons that they were ORIGINALY manufactured with they were not the only f4u-1's that ever used 20 mm cannons-300 MANUFACTURED in all but that doesn't cound a,b and d models ocasionaly fitted with 20mm's
ALSO THE JAPANESE ONLY PRODUCED 423 N1K2-J'S AND HALF OF THEM SAW ONLY ONE FLIGHT-BEING SACRAFICED IN SUICIDE ATTACKS. and that is striaght out of the book
so perk that damn niki if you want to keep it so unrealistic!
Rudedawg
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:rolleyes:
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Creamo,
The problem is not if HTC modelled the n1k2 right or not. I believe they did it right. I beleve it was historically an EXCELLENT airplane during WW2, and not some cheap crap like some would want to make believe. You are right, the nik was a good airplane.
The Tempest too was a great airplane, and HTC decided to keep it under lock with the perk system.
I believe the N1k2 has comparable performance to the Tempest. Its not AS good, but its better than any other non-perk plane in the arena.
I always hated people whinning about the C-Hog. It was, and is, a mediocre plane. When the C-Hog got perked because of the incessant whinning, many of us feared they (chog pilots) would move to the Nik, and it happened. After all, its a much better plane than the Hog, and its free.
Right now when I fly the P-38 or the P-51, if I see a Nik, 1 on 1, I simply have no choice but to run away. If he is below me, I can try one attack, but if I miss, I have to run away. Even if the nik is below, most of the times he will simply point his nose up and catch up with me. I cannot attempt to hammerhead a nik, that would be suicide, unless its a newby pilot.
Only way I can compete with N1k2 1 on 1 is with the Spitfire, and still they have the ability to run away when I outmaneuver them.
anyways, if the chog is perked, I dont know why the nik isnt. It IS a much better plane than the chog. When the chog was rampant, it was open season for me, it was beautiful how many chogs per sortie I could kill.
If you dont believe me, we have to do a few sessions in the Training Arena. Instead of wasting your time testing the nik flight model, we should just test how many planes can compete with the Nik, I flying the Nik, and you flying every other plane. Or vice-versa.
Remember, numbers are just that. Its real fighting what makes a plane better than the other.
[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Animal ]
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Plus the niki outclimbs P51s at 28k, remember that Animal wasnt that really fun for you too? :)
I want it perked too, or the FM e-retention looked at.
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Creamo:
I have something to tell you. Lean a little closer please... Closer.....
<SLAP>
There, have you come to your senses now? It has been my pleasure to assist you that in realizing that no amount of hard data is likely to dissuade the crowd that perennially whines about these things.
This is how it works:
Whine: The Niki is too fast…
Answer: Here is some hard data and it seems to match it pretty close
Whine: Well, the Niki climbs too well…
Answer: Look at these climb charts
Whine: Well, the guns are too good…
Answer: Ferchrissakes it has 4 cannons and a buttload o ammo
Whine: Uh, uh.. It must retain E too well, yeah that is it: It retains E too well!!!
Has anybody ever seen any official test data charts for E-Retention? Of course not. It is not obvious or easy to measure accurately and nobody measured it in the real world so even if you did make some accurate measurements there is nothing to compare it to anyway for verification purposes. So… E-retention whining is relatively safe. Nobody is going to inconveniently whip out a chart and demonstrate what an idiot you are.
For some reason a small number of players can’t seem to figure out that light aircraft with a lot of horsepower regain energy very quickly after bleeding it off. It’s called acceleration.
Until their 109/P-38/Whatever outclimbs/turns/accelerates the N1K by a big enough margin to compensate for their abysmal lack of ACM skill the whining will continue. If the games gets screwed up enough that they are actually satisfied, then the whining will be replaced by gloating. Just view the whining as a verification of correct FMs and a preferable alternative to gloating.
And…
If you ever make it LV let me know your coming so I can enlighten you in person.
Hooligan
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We just had some tests.
Creamo (in several fighters, including Chog, Dora, Spitfire, and 109): 1 victory
Animal (in Nik): like 8 victories.
Owned, squeak.
Either the Nik is an excellent plane in the same level as the tempest, or I am so much better than creamo.
Look, I was not whinning. I dont care about niks, I ignore them in the MA, and my k/d ratio against them is good.
I was just pointing out the fact that the Nik is an awesome fighter and few planes on the planeset can compete with it.
Either unperk the chog like before, or perk the nik too.
I will be happy either way.
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quote:"If he is below me, I can try one attack, but if I miss, I have to run away."
In P51, you need to linger a little up above them (niks) to judge their E-state before starting your dive run. Wait for them to either make a turn or go into a climb. Then you can b & z them a good four or five times before having to run and regroup. If you are getting only one pass, then you are either misjudging their E, or blowing your own E too fast when reclimbing. Also, faking a dive, pulling up 2000 ft before getting to them, then reperching up high is a great way to get them to kill their energy quickly as they will try and nose up to bring their guns to bear.
If you have alt on them in P51, Nikis are quite fun to fight against :) In P51, if you have alt, there is _no_ plane in the arena that you should be afraid of.
Also, in P51, be careful of that altitude range (10-15k ???) where your WEP/supercharger is useless, you won't get as many b & z passes at those altitudes.
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Analmal, the point of this thread was to find glaring FLAWS in the FM of the Niki, that is all.
Not how awful Im am in 1V1, not what your opinion is what should be perked, or not even if you'll get a job ever and pop the hind tit out of your mouth.
We have had one claim that a Niki accelerates in a 180 hard G turn, a suggestion for a super pilot to test E retention, a claim a Niki out climbes a P51 at 28K?! (Grionhurts humor..hardy-f*kin-har), and no proof of anything except what I did to dispell the "Helocpter/hanging on prop ufo myth."
No wonder you and Glasses are brothers.
Still no proof, still no HTC input.
[ 06-12-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000906 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000906)
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wells,
the problem with your method is that e retention of the different airplanes will var ywith altitude, according to the power they generate at the different altitudes. thats why i chose to do my testing at a constant altitude and jjust maintain as high a g load as possible without decelerating or gaining/losing alt. yours will give results that probably are just as meaningful given pilot error in obtaining the data, though.
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Lemme see... oh yeah, P38 dives 4k on a n1k, reaches about 420mph, n1k does a high g turn to evade the bounce (vertical or horizontal turn), p38 zooms straight up with full wep on, shift-x on the zoom to keep the E as long as possible.. watch 6, n1k will end his 180 turn and zoom up after 38 and get into firing range and kills the 38 with a few pings.
Now, I dont see how the hell a plane with POOR CLIMB can not only turn that tight but also zoom up after a plane that was near compression and that zoomed straight up after the dive without any kind of turn...specially against a plane that has one of the best zoom rates out there.
As animal said, 1 pass then run..and PRAY the ufo doesnt end its 180 e-loss-less tight turn and catch you. Or my way, just HO the thing and to hell with it, its not worth the effort to run from it.
The n1k was supposed to have automatic butterfly flaps which gave it great manouv..and also great drag as well. The drag part seems....ommitted to say the least.
Finally, where's the torque on a monster HP plane thats so light? I can barely feel any torque effects on that thing unless I get it to near stall and make a full rudder turn.
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And, uh, still no film right Tac?
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:rolleyes: ok let me re-frase this so that the less fortunate in the brain department can understand...
ANYONE WHO BELIEVES THAT THE NIKI IN REAL LIFE WAS A BETTER AIRCRAFT THAN ANY MODEL F4U IS A diddlyING IDIOT AND FURTHERMORE I WOULD LOVE TO SEE YOU GET IN ONE AND DIVE AT 500MPH FOR EVEN 2 FUKING SECONDS AT 500MPH *(LIKE YOU CAN IN THE GAME AND PULL HI G TURNS OUT OF THAT DIVE)AND THEN DROP ME AN EMAIL AFTERWARDS BECUASE YOU WOULDN'T FUKING BE ALIVE!!!!!
ALSO WE DON'T HAVE A F4U-4 WHICH IS WHAT THE N1K2-J WOULD HAVE GONE UP AGAINST DO TO THE FACT IT CAME OUT IN 1944 AND SO DID THE F4U-4
AND I PROMISE YOU THAT THE F4U-4 WAS MUCH BETTER A PLANE THAN THE N1K2 IN REAL LIFE IT DIDN'T EVEN MATCH UP WITH THE -1 MODEL CORSAIRS IN REAL LIFE (DOESN'T MEAN IT WASN'T PROBLY THE ONE OF THE BEST FIGHTERS THAT JAPAN HAD BUT IT STILL COULDN'T KEEP UP AND NEVER GOT MANY KILLS AND HALF NEVER SAW REAL COMBATE BECAUSE THEY WERE SENT ON SUICIDE MISSIONS THERE FIRST TIME IN COMBAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rudedawg
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Salute Gents,
I have to agree that something is very wrong with the e retention of the niki, I have taken a D-hog from about 1-3k above a nik, dived under his H/O attempt, and watched as he did an immelman, while I kept on course and in a dive to extend past him and drop ordinance before turning to deal with him, the niki then proceeded to CATCH me while I was in a dive, going 450+ mph within seconds (we are talking less than 20 here folks). I think ANYONE can agree that a manuver such as an immelman, used to to change direction quickly, certainly uses up E VERY quickly. How then does a Nik accellerate to 450mph plus to catch a fighter that never manuvered at all except to dive and pick up yet MORE speed. Unless I missed my guess the speed difference between the Nik and the hog is negligable, and while the nik can out accellerate almost anything in the arena, it shouldn't be able to out accellerate something that NEVER DECELLERATED. I have been able to do loops in the nik almost indefinitely and saw little or no loss of speed, all of this at near blackout g forces. Try that in any other plane in the arena, hell, even a spit will letcha know you are gonna stall, soon you will be unable to hold a turn tight enough to stay near blackout, then stall follows soon after. Try this test, loop the bird till it stalls, nik will do so after MANY more rotations I suspect. I have no hard evidence to back any of this up, but being caught from behind by a bird that was a few moments ago hanging on it's prop seems a little off to me.
And don't bother to characterize this information as a whine, I just try to point out what I observe to be discrepancies in the FM so that it can be improved. After all this IS a sim where the owners LISTEN to us and attempt to make changes where appropriate. Personally I have had alot of fun flying a nik in the ma, it doesn't act like a real airplane, but what the heck?
It does get a bit tiresome watching one H/O attempt after another by the same nikis until someone hasn't enough E to turn to face them and evade, then they get hit by 4X20mm. You KNOW you can't outrun the thing, you SURELY can't out accellerate the thing, hell you can outturn him for a bit but he won't lose E and you will, so eventually you are on the ragged edge of a stall, while he is flying around like he never turned at all. The only success I have had against Nikis is to try to take em out early, before losing your E, and that has to happen in a fighter that can outturn him handily.
Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff
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YOU SHOULD GET A LIFE AND FIX YOUR CAPS LOCK KEY BEFORE I HAx0R j00 HAHAHHA 0WN3D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
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Originally posted by Gargoyle:
...Then you can b & z them a good four or five times before having to run and regroup.
That's ok, but when niki starts to turn its nose on you during every boom and very soon after that, you being accused of HO'ing...
I just can't get it.
Say you BnZ niki with P-47. Doesn't that niki driver understand that he has way more agile ac and HE has ALL the options how to deal with BnZ jug. In reality, against niki, you don't have much choise with jug,but BnZ.
After killing niki, he crawls on ch1 to cry for HO's. Oh,pls!!!!!
Sorry for dragging this out of subject, which btw is very interesting and important.
About testing. How about testing ac's like HOOF (http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/) or IDDON (http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/6302/Perform/flight_test_department_2.htm) did it on WB?
[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: janneh ]
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Originally posted by gijeff:
Salute Gents,
... I think ANYONE can agree that a manuver such as an immelman, used to to change direction quickly, certainly uses up E VERY quickly. How then does a Nik accellerate to 450mph plus to catch a fighter that never manuvered at all except to dive and pick up yet MORE speed. Unless I missed my guess the speed difference between the Nik and the hog is negligable, and while the nik can out accellerate almost anything in the arena, it shouldn't be able to out accellerate something that NEVER DECELLERATED.....
While I aggree that the N1K2 FM allows for some wild manouvers (haven't got a clue wether that sticks to reality or not), I disagree that Immelman is an E-consuming manouver. When into an immelman, given it is a smooth one, you are just converting kinetic energy (speed) into potential energy (alt). And you finalise it with a barrell (usually at lo speed) that is a low E-consuming manouver. So no lot of E to blow in an Immelman.
With regards with him catching you, It depends a lot on the smash both of you had on the merge. If he was faster than you, he might catch you even if you do not manouver at all.
A N1K2 with E-advantage is a *VERY* dangerous opponent. But is not that fast, definitely not up high. Doras, Ponys, La's, Typhoons, Hogs, to name a bit, can disengage from a co-E merge with N1K2's using speed.
Personally, I find a lot more annoying the F4U-1C thant the N1K2. Hog is fast (faster than N1K2), outrolls almost anything in the Arena, it's sturdy, and can do pretty wild manouvers, as well. Plus nothing beats 4xHispano when coming to punching power ;)
Cheers,
Pepe
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Rudedawg, the e is backwards in your BBS name.
[ 06-13-2001: Message edited by: Fatty ]
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Originally posted by Fariz:
I keep 3d picture inside my head and can judge e and position of any planes even not seeing it, but with niki I am always wrong. It shall be some explanation.
Fariz.
The explanation is that you allow yourself to be continually amazed by the Niki's performance instead of adjusting for it in the 3D picture within your head. If the Niki consistently outturns you or otherwise holds onto E more than you'd expected, then you need to make a concerted effort to expect it to do that. That is, quit falling victim to underestimation.
I'm just baffled at how this could be the plane's fault for fooling you.
-- Todd/DMF
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You guys (not you creamo :) ) must be smoking something. Consider a N1K poking along in level flight at 320mph. He's on the 6 of a F4U, say d 1.0. He's not going to catch the F4U - you know it and I know it.
How in the world do you expect a N1k to catch a F4U as it's diving? Hell, the control surfaces of the N1k freeze up before 500 mph (the F4U doesn't.)
There's only one way a N1K is going to shoot a F4U that's diving past him and that's for the N1K to make an exquisitely timed turn so that for a few seconds, he has a target opportunity.
In jokes, I've often read there isn't enough blood in the human body to operate a brain and noodle at the same time. I'm beginning to believe the same thing applies to a joystick.
Guys, the N1K turns really well; it accelerates well (not the greatest, but ok.)
If you linger near one, it's going to kill you.
Take some really good pilots like AKDJv, Nimitz or Fariz1.
In tour 16, dj was 15-1 against the N1k. In tour 17, dj is 3-1, but DJ is flying a p51B this tour.
In tour 17, Nimitz is 30-3 and Fariz is 30-8 against the uber N1k.
In tour 16, me, an average pilot, was 36 and 25 against the N1k.
On the other hand, an excellent pilot like Hblair is 17-17 against the N1k. Why is that? My guess is that Hblair loves to get his 109 down in the dirt. He's convinced his crossed-controls maneuvers will prevail against the N1k. If my guess is right, then a score of 17-17 is freaking uber.
Perking planes is a load of crap! If you want to perk something, perk the freaking pilots! :D Just joking ... about perking pilots - good pilots find ways to kill superior aircraft - that's it in a nutshell.
AKcurly
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Pepe, agree 100% with you. But I woudln't call nikki's maneovers "wild". All I see with Nikki are perfectly reasonable flying "paths" while manouvering, but at half the scale most of the other planes can do. Shorter turn radious while greater turn speed, almost no E lost, impressive acceleration, etc, but the "paths" seems normal. In the other hand, HOG-D/C is the one that really do WILD moves. It is more like an acrobatic plane than a combat one, while keeping the speed, acceleration and punch power of a fighter.
And now, about Creamo tests. There is an important factor missing here, as important as the altitude gained: the time in the vertical with full control. Perhaps, niki cant gain as much altitude as 109G10 in a vertical zoom, but while the 109 is with almost no real control and starting to going down, the nikki keeps "like hang" in the vertical, with full control, not gaining much altitude, but aiming at the 109 with great precission and at less than 500 yards. And not only nikki, Spits, Zekes, Typhs and some others have the same "hanging" property.
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good pilots find ways to kill superior aircraft - that's it in a nutshell.
This is the only plane i havent figured out a tactic for other than be above it or run. The F4U was a match for my 51 but i could kill it most of the time. If i attack a niki co alt co-e i will most surely die.
RWY
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I thought this thread was a "How too do flight testing?" not a squeak whine about the Niki.
Creamo, here is how the Navy does it. Its an excellent little resource.
http://flighttest.navair.navy.mil/unrestricted/FTM108/ (http://flighttest.navair.navy.mil/unrestricted/FTM108/)
Naval Test Pilot School
Flight Test Manual
USNTPS-FTM-No. 108
FIXED WING PERFORMANCE
Hooligan, get ahold of me, I have something you might be interested in. I had to reformat my HD and my address book.
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gijeff:
I simply don't believe you. I have no problems at all outdiving a N1K in an F4u. The next time you think something like this happens why don't you post film and if don't have a way to get it onto the web you can email it to me and I will post it for you.
Hooligan
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sheesh.... I am mediocre and I am like about 10-1 against the nik in a F4U-d. I have never had a nik catch me unless I was going very slow or he had a huge alt/E advantage to start with. I admit that 1 on 1 the nik is a hard plane to kill with a Hog but i don't run into em 1 on 1... They are always tied up in a fite and I do a lot of deflection shooting. The other thing they do is try to climb straight up from a furball. They don't climb any better than any of a number of planes I've seen and become big fat planeform targets for my hog if I enter the fite with a couple K advantage. I have never had trouble zoom climbing with a nik in my Hog. I have never seen a nik do anything that I couldn't or didn't picture it would do ahead of time. I have never had a co e nik dive with my Hog... the idea is laughable..If they (the nik's) do something that surprises u then you are an idiot. nik is slow and easy to defeat. RTB in a nik is a lot harder than a Hog or some of the faster planes. It, like the Spit, has to stay and fite. It is quite simple to pick one apart a piece at a time.
lazs
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Verm:
My email address is jayb@exmsft.com. I tried to email you but I have a stale address.
Hooligan
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"I saw a n1k once... it killed me. I got mad; went back and HO'ed him. He killed me again. I got madder and went back with a Chog and blew his kite to confetti with my superior skill and reflexes. (HO'ed)"
*sigh*
And so it goes. Yep the nik's a handfull... I've seen well flown ones in furballs confound and confuse those that attempt to keep it closely engaged.. leading litte clumps of bish sportsmen around like a damn conga line.
As with all A/C in the sim.. it's got quirks.. and yah I've seen it do amazing things. But then I've seen just about everything in the sim do amazing things at one time or another.
I applaud Creamo for looking at the 'question' objectively; and hope some good comes from the quest for Truth; Justice and the Approved Testing Way.
In the meantime; I think Chutes should be perked. Using one should cost yah 5 points.
:D
Hang
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Boys, boys, boys, BOYS, boys...
Shall we all join hands and sing another round of "Perk 'em all!" ?
:D
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I guess they just dont know how to read Creamo....kinda sad really.
Do you morons know where the "record film" key is? Use it!!! Without it, you are all just whining little squeakes. I see guys complain over and over about the N1K2 but surprisingly its always the same guys and apparently they dont know how to record film.
Here's a clue dimwits....press Alt + R
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Told you all along time ago "Today the Chog, tomorrow the N1K, then the next day..??"
Enjoy. :)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Told you all along time ago "Today the Chog, tomorrow the N1K, then the next day..??"
Well, of course. Quite obviously now that the -1C problem has been dealt with and we are very close to a final solution on ze N1K, it ist time to deal vith ze SpitFeuer Neun.
Jah, der Spit IX chust has to be perked! Und zen ve shall deal mit der SpitFeuer Fünf, zat nasty kleiner Teufel!
Und za Tiffie! Jah! Zat vier Hispano-Tragen abomination! Ve must perk zat!
Now ve zing der perkin' zong!
*****
DER FUEHRER'S FACE
Spike Jones & His City Slickers
Note: Each "heil heil" is accompanied by what is variously called "the bird", "the raspberry", or "the Bronx cheer"
When der Führer says:
We is de Master race,
We Heil — , Heil —,
Right in the Führer's face
Not to love the Führer
Is a great disgrace,
So we Heil — , Heil —,
Right in the Führer's face.
When Herr Goebbels says
We own the world and space,
We Heil — , Heil —,
Right in Herr Goebbels' face
When Herr Göring says
They'll never bomb this place,
We Heil — , Heil —,
Right in Herr Göring's face.
Are we not the supermen,
Aryan-pure supermen?
Ja we is der supermen,
Superduper supermen.
Ist this not zee land not good?
Would you leave it if you could?
Ja this not zee land is good!
Vee would leave it if we could!
We bring the world new order,
Heil Hitler's world new order.
Everyone of foreign race,
Will love Der Führer's face,
When we bring to the world dis-order.
When der Führer says:
We is de Master race,
We Heil — , Heil —,
Right in the Führer's face
Not to love the Führer
Is a great disgrace
So we Heil — , Heil —,
Right in the Führer's face.
(MP3 file at :)
http://ingeb.org/songs/whenderf.html (http://ingeb.org/songs/whenderf.html)
Just a bit of "now politically incorrect" WW2 history. ;)
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Salute Gents,
Hooligan, what is that crap? You always take time out of a busy engagement to engage film? I didn't know of the need for film in time to engage it. Like I said I passed him and really didn't think it was in any way possible for him to catch me, I was pulling away from him when I last checked, and this was well after he completed his immelman. Then suddenly tracerfire outside my cockpit. Lag could have been the issue here but he seemed perfectly smooth up to that point.
In addition, your comment is tantamount to calling me a liar, which is not only rude but as they say in the western states "them's fighting words". :mad: In addition, your condecending attitude toward me evidenced by your assumption that I wouldn't know how to post film, and your underhanded offer to assist me as if I were incompetent is taken in exactly the manner it was meant. It may interest you to know that I am a Network Consultant in Real Life, I DESIGN and BUILD networks.
It is clear to me that you are nothing more than a troll looking to get a rise out of me. Too bad you didn't try it somewhere I could reach you. You might've gotten what they refer to as "too much of a good thing" be careful what you wish for. When I was in the army we had a remedy for people of your ilk, we used to give them a "blanket party", or "attitude adjustment".
Let me leave you, Hooligan, with these final words of wisdom.......BITE ME! :D
Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff
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Gijeff:
I wasn't assuming that you couldn't post film, just offering to ensure that any film you made would get posted.
Furthermore, I don't think you are lying about this. It seems very likely to me that some combination of lack of SA, misunderstanding of ACM etc... leads you to totally misinterpret what happened. In short I think you are not skilled enough to even tell what happened.
However, you should be easily able to prove me wrong. And if the FM is screwed up like you believe it is, I certainly hope that you provide the proof and that it is rapidly corrected.
So stop whining and making excuses. Film an incident like this and post it or shut up. Cease with the "I can't film" excuses. Film every mission. When you catch the event on film you can delete all the old films and keep that last one. I will cheerfully and humbly apologize when you present the proof. However, I really really doubt that this proof will be forthcoming.
Hooligan
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Salute Gents,
Hooligan, you want some mint to go with the OTHER shoe you just jammed in your piehole? I have been flying AH since it first came out. I have also flown most WW2 fighter simulators, starting with European Air War, Fighter Squadron Screaming Deamons Over Europe, MS CFS-II, among others. While my fighter ranking isn't the greatest, it is mostly from defending airfields against ridiculous odds that my K/D ratio suffers. It might also interest you to know that I am a member of the Aces High Training Corps. So much for your newbie theory. :D Guess when you found out I wasn't technically incompetent you hadda blame it on my flight proficiency. Couldn't possibly be that I saw what I say I saw, oh no.
Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff
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I'll make it real easy for you. Fly a niki for a week. Surely if it has the UFO properties you profess you can come up with one film in that time demonstrating it. Oh, and I did find your preemptory excuse for your poor fighter skills to be very very amusing.
Hooligan
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ROFL.. this 'remembering to turn film on' issue reminds me of an incident from my youth.
While stationed in germany 30 years ago I was dating a very pretty young fraulein, only problem was her native ex-boyfriend and his pals were after my bellybutton fer 'stealing' her affections.
One evening; whilst finishing up a sumptuous jeagersnitzel dinner with this lovely lady I was accosted by these three guys who had obviously one thing in mind.. me; in the parking lot, with no teeth; no functional ribs and a broken arm or two.
I briefly went to the bar; got 'em all drinks used the phone to call the MP's and an ambulance. Then; I went back to the table; waited paitently while they worked themselves up to 'fight' mode; when it became obvious it was gonna happen (and I could hear a siren) I stood up, clobbered the first one with the chair; smacked the second in the chops with the Liebfraumilch, and was about ready to plant my boot in the thirds testicles when I got wolloped in the head from behind and went out like a light.
I woke up in the ambulance... but had my ribs, arms and teeth all where they were supposed ta be.
Moral.. if yah see a fight commin; prepare for the worst; don't wait fer the natural order of things to conclude before yah initiate action and make damn sure yah have health coverage.
So.. next time yah see a N1K headin yer way with malice aforthought; turn on the damn recorder so when yah wake up; you'll be able to determine what hit yah.
<S!>
Hang
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Geez Hangtime....there ya go trying to bring an element of logic into a big ole long Niki whine thread. You should know better than that.
By the way folks....refer to Creamo's original post. I believe he wanted some ways to test the N1K2 for abnormalities of the flight model. He may have even mentioned for you to bring film to the table when you show up.
But then again...its just much easier to squeak and moan isnt it?
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Query results: Tour 17
kbman has 31 kills and has been killed 0 times against the N1K2
Query results: Tour 16
kbman has 62 kills and has been killed 5 times against the N1K2.
Query results: Tour 15
kbman has 73 kills and has been killed 11 times against the N1K2.
No comment... :p
kbman
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Yeah, sure KB.
But I bet YOU were flying... (Dun-Dun-Dun DAAAH!)...
THE C-HOG!
<AH! C-HOG! Run away! Run away!>
Perk! Perk! OH, puh-leeez! PERK!
Save us all! Save us all! Get out the Perk Gun and hit the F4U-1C! and the N1K1! and, and...get the SpitIX too! QUICK!
Perk everything but the C202! ( and cut down the ammo in that!)
we're dooooooooooooooooooooooooomed!
;)
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heh, chogboy ;) *grin*
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There is a relation between the A6M5 and N1K2-J airfoils, as there is between the F6F and Fw190.
One of these pairs show some correlation in certain characteristics, one does not.
And no matter what is said the N1K2-J's flaps don't work in a historically correct way, in addition to being graphically rendered too small. ;)
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Salute Gents,
Well Hooligan, whyncha ask Vati66 about my flying abilities. I don't proclaim to be an ace by any means, but I do know how airplanes are supposed to act. By the way, how much actual stick time do you have in real aircraft? I have some, certainly enough to give me a feel for what does and does not act like a real airplane. The FM for AH is one of the best if not THE best, but I still think there are a few tweaks to be made. I will continue to lobby for such as I see fit, and lemme end with......eat me! :D
Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff
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A quick test I did a while back showed the N1K only lost 50mph in a 180º blackout turn started from 300mph. This was without any external ord. Pyro has stated he thinks the wing might be generating too much lift. Now if anyone here has figures for the N1K2's wing geometry, post it. Take one up offline with full external ord attached and shoot up the drones like you would anyone else. Use sharp maneuvers to your heart's content. I did, and I found it handled better than most aircraft without bombs loaded. I'm going offline to film this phenomenon, and I'll post the film in the Aircraft board.
-----------------------
Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/delta6.jpg)
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To get back to the topic of this thread for a moment ;)
Originally posted by Creamo:
Oh, and heres the ALT they reached at point of stall. None of the aircraft "hung" there for any unreasonable amount of time, all departed flight.
G10 - 10,700
Yak9-U - 10,500
LA7 - 10,400
N1K2 - 9,700
Looking at the methodoligy of the testing there is a fundamental flaw. You were testing zoom climb from different speeds for different aircraft (their maximum). In a pure vertical climb the altitude gained will primary be a function of how much energy they had a start and how much extra energy is imparted during the climb by the engine (the planes are not manuvering and so are in a low drag state and compared to the other factors drag is not a major issue).
Because of this I'd expect the relative climb performance to be in line with the relative top speeds which would go.
109G10
LA7
Yak-9U (just a touch slower than the LA7)
N1K1
The only surpise in your tests is the Yak, but that could be due the dufferent pullup characteristics.
To do a fair test of zoom climb you should puul up all planes at the same airspeed. Also repeat all the test a number of times, throw out the highest and lowest values for each plane and average the rest.
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sheesh... This gijeffie is a trainer? LOL... first we had a trainer that thinks (and loudly proclaims) that the "rope a dope" is "cheating" and now this moron with his less than 1/1 K/D ratio (what were you defending those fields with a c47?) talk about how if a nik killed him it must be cheating or a FM anomaly???
So what does HTC do for trainers? He certainly doesn't screen for emotionally stable ..
creamo posted some real results that he took the time and effort to test. This dipshit gijeffie goes into a rant that is emotional and totally devoid of any substance and then get's upset when someone tells him to prove it? He compounds that with veiled threats aginst someone he has never met? I bet he's a little sissy boy and even a 51 year old broke down bald, fat, guy with someone elses heart valve could squeak slap him into a crying jag much less hooligan who actually went through all the training..
Soo.... I say your a skilless liar prove me wrong. fly the nik for a tour and we will see just how "uber" it is in the hands of even a (choke) "trainer".
I don't like the nik and don't fly it but am about sick of all these dipshits that say how it is so uber and wrong and when you look... they do worth crap in the plane they are saying is such a dweeb ride.
Maybe there is something off with the nik. If there is I bet it is something small. I think that in any case it is still best to test instead of making a bunch of hysterical, unfounded and unproven anecdotal claims.
lazs
[ 06-14-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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Thanks for the links Wells, and Verm. I will take time this weekend to look into those.
Falkbait said - A quick test I did a while back showed the N1K only lost 50mph in a 180º blackout turn started from 300mph. This was without any external ord. Pyro has stated he thinks the wing might be generating too much lift.
Although this is the type of abnormal fm characteristics I would suspect may show some error, I had a tough time testing it. That's the type of stuff Im looking for. In fact, just like the Spit which always kills me, the Niki looks very similiar in this regard. I've never seen proof one way or the other though.
Graywolf, regarding my climb tests. I started the G10 at 300kts indicated because it did go so much faster, and all the aircraft within 25kts of that which are their top speeds. I think the Niki was the slowest straight and level at 275kts indicated- Beings that they are so close, the Energy of the fighters was very close as well. Now certainly it's like you said not a completely accurate test, but it dispelles any super ufo capabilities of the Niki, period.
And whomever gijeffie is, knock off the trainer roll troll, nobody buys it. You make threats against people like your going to physically hurt them if they " where you can reach them"?(that's criminal tardboy) spout off about your job(noone cares), flying skills(speak for themselves), and how your a all important AH trainer. Please stop clogging the thread. You aint giving anyone a "blanket party", just a headache.
Well good points, just waiting for the films. I'll try to get some myself.
[ 06-14-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Creamo,
I've posted a link in the Planes and Vehicle category to some plane test procedures I've started using to test some planes. I am ultimately going to post my data. Sounds like we should team up to combine some results and eliminate some redundancy.
On the climb test...I simply dove all planes and started the climb when they got down to 400. That way all planes started in similar E-states. I also set fuel use to 0 (well, .001) had all planes with around 25 minutes duration fuel so they would be in similar fuel states. I won't post the link here so that (hopefully) any comments will go to the planes and vehicle thread
Sample Data Thread in Planes and Vehicles (http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002200)
HaMmeR
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Salute Gents,
Gee Lazs1, you must have a reading comprehension problem, ...or you didn't bother to read my first post. In my first post I stated that I had observed some strange behavior in the nik and gave a recent example. Only after being called a liar, and incompetent in the same sentence did I respond with a scathing remark, which I found to be quite appropriate under the circumstances. What a surprise to find yet another troll trying to get a rise out of me, YAWN. Go kick your cat if that makes you feel more manly because obviously wit isn't your forte. :D
Creamo, I was making a joke (albeit a rather forceful one) when I told the troll he was lucky he didn't call me a liar where I could reach him. Though I am not certain I wouldn't have given him an object lesson in not saying things just to piss off others had he been within reach. I don't really care if you think me qualified to train in the TA. Fortunately it ain't your call :D
Oh, and one more thing, both of you can.....eat me! :D
Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff
[ 06-14-2001: Message edited by: gijeff ]
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Wow, if I can do duplicate testing to help verify your tests XHammer, I certainly will give it a shot. It would halve the workload, and provide some measure of redundancy for testing accuracy, yes. Thank you.
Are you still talking about being a trainer giJiff? Got to abmit your persistant, if adding nothing to the topic.
---
[ 06-14-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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gijeffie... it appears that you are the one with a "reading comprehension problem". I can find nowhere that hooligan called you a liar. I called you a liar tho. I think that you are either skilless or a liar. I think your phony tough guy act is less than funny.
say, wasn't the last tough man competiton won by a network installer? No?
trainer... sheesh.. what a dipshit. You gonna teach people how to be vulched or how to lower their K/D ratio? Well, If you can tear yourself away from those duties, go ahead tough guy, fly a tour in the nik and show us how uber it is.
You got nothing. all your "proof" is a result of either your lack of skill or your lack of awarness about what was happening or.... A lie.
maybe something is wrong with the nik in some small way but... nothing that would explain the things gijeffie is talking about tho. I'm about sick of it. Creamo and others post data and then the same ol dipshits bring up their unsubstanciated fantasy stories every time. Just like with the CHog. Truth is... these guys can't fly the planes they squeak about worth a damn. And that's the real "problem" with those planes.
lazs
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The F4U-1C was just the beginning...
-SW
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Salute Gents,
Gee lazs1 I look at your stats and....wow they are no better than mine, in fact your overall score is in the 1300 range, hmmm, and I can't fly? My overall score is in the top 200. When you get there, then you can talk to me. Till then save the hot air, you are gonna need it to hold that chute up. Obviously anyone that has experiences different from your own MUST be lying, or if they disagree with you, they must be an amazinhunk? Hmmm. Of course any network consultant must wear a pocket protector. Yup, I must be a 55 year old, pasty skinned, pocket protector and horn rimmed glasses wearing nerd, that's me. On the other hand I might be a 34 year old Ex-Tanker from a combat MOS who doesn't take toejam from kiddies who think typing something ignorant and unkind is fun. Like I said, kick your cat/dog if that makes you feel like a man, you ain't got much going for ya in the prose department. Stereotyping is stupid and if you are too young or stupid to realize that, then nothing I can say will wake you up. Oh and ......Eat Me!
Jeff Waite
aka GIJeff
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My fighter score is in the top 20...
Oh wait.. you mean we aren't comparing who's biggest?
Nevermind..
-SW
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Was there a real thread around here? I got lost in all the macho, testosterone roadkill. :D
Rankings don't mean -too- much. A lot of factors go into K/D, mainly play style. If you're conservative and only attack if you have the advantage, you'll have a better K/D than the guy that doesn't care if he dies or not. You guys wanna trash talk as to who's better??? Go to the dueling arena and find out! Take up the same ride, same loadout, go cold merge at some altitude and have at it. Oh, and film it so we can all see. :D Til all you're doing is just blowing sunshine up yer own ass!
BTW, I've only seen one niki pull something where I said "WOW!" it was like he just immediately reversed, but it took him a lil' bit to recover the E he blew, and as he fixated on me, someone came up behind him and sent him to the ground. Niki is only really dangerous in the hands of a good pilot (or if I'm sitting in a GV or PT boat with 2 or 3 of them around. I think 4 of my niki deaths came in one night when I went crazy in the PT boat! Died 6 times in maybe 10 minutes. Only took out 1 niki and 1 p47.)
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I want to see a film. Give me a film if you want to prove that the N1k is wrong.
It is easy to complain about an aircraft that has no lobby - i mean the spit9 performs pretty close to a N1k. Turns way too good, all spits. But if you say this the spit-lobby will cry so loud that a Manowar-concert sounds like relax-music compared to it.
The N1k is pretty slow for the HP it has, but it turns good. So where is the problem?
niklas
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niki. niki. niki. the name makes me gonna mad.
I just hate niki. niki makes my eyes to wide open and put the word "F*CK" to my head when the absolutely low E niki than my Hog zooming and closing to me at the top of zoom.
Also, when I roped to niki who zooming to my Hog, I pray "Oh God! I didn't incorrect sum up the E status of that niki! right?!" and just pray "niki. niki. niki. you got time to lose control!!" again but niki still it's head to me and shows me the tracers. :eek:
After then, I met the sounds "Perk Perk Perk Perk, BOOM!"(at this time, "Perk" means hitting sound) and I screaming "Perk niki! Perk niki! Perk! Perk! Perk F*ck!" at the same time.
To my enemy : "Don't drive the NIKI!" :p
To my friendly : "drive NIKI! it's GREAT!" :D
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LOL gijeffie... now u made me look... I have little use for score but I do like to track things like K/D and K/time and such. I haven't been on for about 4 weeks so my K/D is off about 100% or a little less but even at that.... i am doing allmost twice as good as you and I admit to anyone listening that I am mediocre at best. It appears that you looked at overall rank to make your point and I have flown nothing but fighters and then only for 4 hrs. You seem to have done your best to cloud the issue and well.... be dishonest about even so simple a thing as score.
Heck, even that worthless SW is ten times the pilot you are and I really hate admiting that!
Does sitting in a tank years ago make people tough guys? I don't know.
I repeat... if you believe that the things you say are true then you are skilless and unaware of what is happening around you. At the very least they are not germain to real testing. They are simply worthless anecdotal crap.
and yes pocket protector boy... I know... "bite me". save ya the effort.
lazs
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If ya wanna do tests to find out what makes the Niki such a deadly plane... turn rate/radius, climb etc. etc. means little imho.
You'll need some kind of test to compare control of the plane at well below stall speed.
People make the mistake of thinking the Niki is beating them at the zoom climb. It's not. It's merely able to continue pointing in the right direction (i.e. *upwards*) when the zoomer runs outta steam and falls (usually with much less control) back down onto the Niki.
So the zoomer falls through and past the Niki. The Niki kicks hard rudder and lead turns the falling opponent, ending up on opponent's 6 with decent acceleration (and usually better control).
Note: By zoom climb, mean people expecting to rope the niki. The odds aren't good. With an ordinary conservative zoom climb though (for another set-up), there's not much to worry about.
It's also this control at speeds at or below stall that make for a myriad of other "how the eff did he do that?" maneuvers.
Aint saying it's accurate, aint saying it's innaccurate... but that's something that I think would be worth measuring somehow.
This is probably the first AC FM type thread I've ever wandered into... I really don't know much about this stuff. But since they perked my Chog, I've been riding the Niki just for spite. If you want film of the stuff I've described, sure... I'll make some tomorrow. I don't think it's any mystery.
Just wanna point you in a direction that may be helpfull.
[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: Nash ]
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Gents;
Here's what I bring to this discussion; first +3000 hrs. single engine flight time as comm. pilot and CFI, second extensive time in the dreaded Nikki and finally an awareness of real life.
Here's what I think
Without the information used by HTC to program the FM of the Nikki or any other airplane and comparing that to real life data out of a flight manual, this entire arguement is useless. I don't see anyone from HTC in this thread telling us that the Nikki is programmed to have this or that climb rate which was taken from the following document captured in '45 It's all roadkill boys, this is a game, not a real flight sim. Drives me nuts to hear this schoolboy banter as though some of these aeronautical engineer wannabees expect AH to function as precisely as a multimillion dollar airline flight simulator. c'mon get real, if we could expect AH to fly like a real plane then somebody like me with real life experience would be way up there in the rankings instead of a mediocre 600ish.
Beeg
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
I got wolloped in the head from behind and went out like a light.
Hang
I'm guessing it was your date :)
Badboy
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Originally posted by Beegerite:
Gents;
Here's what I bring to this discussion; first +3000 hrs. single engine flight time as comm. pilot and CFI, second extensive time in the dreaded Nikki and finally an awareness of real life.
Beeg
Please say more about your experience in the Nikki. I imagine there aren't too many folk around with time in the Nikki. How much of the aircraft was original? What impression did it make on you?
What other WWII fighters have you flown? Can you make any comparisons regarding handling or performance?
Badboy
EDIT
I originally read your message as though you had flight time in the real Nikki, reading it again I notice I may be mistaken and you may have been referring to the AH Nikki. Sorry, my mistake.
[ 06-16-2001: Message edited by: Badboy ]
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Yah Beeger, I agree.
If only HTC would stop trying to program AH to be a game, and go for a realistic simulation of flight.
Then, all the commercial pilots that fly online would dazzle the toejam out of the community with their impressive aerial combat maneuvers they get so much practice with hauling 7 businessmen from Moline, Iowa to Lacrosse, WI in a Jetstream 31.
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Thx for excellent URL Vermillion.
So much to do, yet so little time, :)
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Is it a good thing or a bad thing that creamo is taking the words right out of my mouth lately?
Imagine how good a buss driver with 10 years on the road would be in AH if the FM's were accurate!
lazs
[ 06-17-2001: Message edited by: lazs1 ]
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wells, the problem with your method is that e retention of the different airplanes will vary with altitude, according to the power they generate at the different altitudes. thats why i chose to do my testing at a constant altitude and just maintain as high a g load as possible without decelerating or gaining/losing alt. yours will give results that probably are just as meaningful given pilot error in obtaining the data, though.
zigrat,
A sustained turn test is only good if you then perform a sustained climb test at the same speed to see how much 'excess' thrust (or drag) goes into the turn. Then you can see if induced drag is accurate or not. But you still have to make assumptions about aircraft weight, power etc...and until HTC gives us that information (that any pilot of a real plane would have), then none of our little *tests* are really proving anything.