Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: LLv34_Camouflage on August 07, 2004, 04:27:17 PM
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Hi guys and gals!
I ran across these:
http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/wing-test.wmv
http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/he-test.wmv
http://www.lanpartyworld.com/ww2/files/he-divx.avi
I definately recommend checking the first video. It shows an aluminum mock wing piece being shot by .303, .50, 20mm AP and finally 20mm HE.
Camo
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I wonder if that was HE on Mine?
Pretty hilarious effect....
-C+
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Great find, thanks for sharing it!
Shows how undermodelled HE and MG rounds are compared to HMG rounds.
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mt
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Was the 20mm HE shot to the target or detonated? Looks like detonated to me..
It'd been great if there was a test of how different the HE effects would be according to depth of shell penetration before detonation.. particularly interesting would be the cases where 20mms detonating 'on top of surface' before ideal penetration inside structure.
I've seen many people theorize on the scope of the 'shallow detonation', some saying that it'd hardly matter, others saying it might drastically lower the effectiveness of the blast...
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Yeah that graphically illustrates the point.
Crumpp
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wow
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Has Anybody read Tony's article on weapon effectiveness where they factor in the damage from explosive rounds?
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IIRC Mr. Williams estimated that 20mm cannon was about three times as destructive as the .50 cal. In that test video the 20mm looked a lot more destructive than just three times. A LOT more destructive. Perhaps Mr. Williams needs to re-evaluate his estimates.
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Well, the "simulated wing" had a pretty small displacement so the pressure effect was rather big. On the other hand the "wing" piece had already quite hefty holes in it so there was some ventilation for pressure. It would be nice to get a real wing from a aircraft scrapyard and test the HE against that.
-C+
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I cant understand which ones are 20mm AP. Any guesses ?
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S!
20mm AP holes are the biggest ones followed closely by .50cal and smallest ones are .303cal ones. The ammunition used on the film is the MG151/20 Minengeschoss AFAIK. And there's more to come, I just heard that they are making a film with the MK108 firing! :eek: I also would like to say my modest hello to all AH2 pilots, signed up my account again after a long pause, feels nice to be back :aok
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Heh. Its not that simple ;).
On the front side of the plate we have no problem:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/286_1092058230_ammotest1.jpg)
But on the other side of the plate...
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/286_1092058257_ammotest2.jpg)
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I'm also not sure how representative aluminium wrapped around a couple of blocks of wood is of a wing structure.
Clearly the 20mm HE is more destructive, but the fact that every warring nation used 20mm HE rounds should have already told us that.
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Well the wing structure of the plane in your avatar is exactly that; aluminum wrapped around a piece of wood. ;)
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Originally posted by DB603
S!
And there's more to come, I just heard that they are making a film with the MK108 firing! :eek:
They will need bit bigger wing-mock up for that to serve something of a useful material. ;)
BTW, who did these nice vids? And how do they fire the rounds anyway, I`d suppose you need a very special license to hobby fire a WW2 30mm cannon in your backyard . :D :D
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As for firing - all .50 rounds were fired at once. Not sure about weapon those guys used...
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well the wing structure of the plane in your avatar is exactly that; aluminum wrapped around a piece of wood. ;)
Actually it is wood glued to more wood.
What is missing is how a larger riveted structure takes it. Do the rivets act as a possible tear point resulting in the total destroction of that area, but saving the larger structure?
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What larger structure? Most planes of WWII had stressed skin; if removed it would lead to failure of the entire structure.
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Originally posted by GScholz
What larger structure? Most planes of WWII had stressed skin; if removed it would lead to failure of the entire structure.
Removal of skin would weaken or destroy the structure. It depends on how much was removed, where it was removed from and the strength of the structure. Destruction of the complete structure was not the only posibble outcome.
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http://discussions.playnet.com/viewtopic.php?t=98380&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=e6be82537e0589a4ee9f89e9909af321
Many answers :).
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The nature of the structure did make quite a difference to the effect of HE shells. This is from 'Flying Guns - World War 2: Development of Aircraft Guns, Ammunition and Installations 1933-45':
"The 30 mm HEI M-Geschoss, fired from an MK 108, was also tested. Unsurprisingly, ten rounds fired at a Spitfire fuselage resulted in a score of three immediately lethal, seven probably lethal. Eleven rounds fired at a Blenheim achieved the same results, plus one doubtful. It was noted that the ammunition did not have much effect on heavy bomber fuselages (presumably because of the large volume for the explosion to dissipate into), but inflicted serious aerodynamic damage to the wings by blowing off the surfaces, and that the incendiary content was very effective in starting fires. German tests reflected these results, and also revealed significant differences in the effectiveness of the mine shells depending on the construction of the aircraft. Stressed-skin alloy monococque structures were most vulnerable to being blown apart. Steel structures clad with thin aluminium were less affected as the cladding quickly split, releasing the pressure before it had much time to damage the structure, and fabric-covered structures were damaged least of all."
Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and Discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)