Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Ack-Ack on August 09, 2004, 06:27:56 AM
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This is a relatively coalt fight with a Spitfire. Not sure it's a Mk IX or a V I'm fighting though.
The Spitfire has a slight altitude and energy advantage but that plays into the strengths of my plane and I'm fully able to take advantage of that.
Don't know who I was facing or whether or not he's good but this is a good example how you can turn with a Spitfire.
P-38 vs. Spitfire (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/film86.ahf)
ack-ack
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The link seems to be broken.
DmdMax
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:( Unable to download ... link faulty????!!!! :(
Happy1 :D
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Link fixed.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Don't know who I was facing or whether or not he's good but this is a good example how you can turn with a Spitfire.
ack-ack
aKAK a 38 wont out turn a spitfire. Altho I out turn spitfires it aint the plane, its the pilot. I DONT out turn the well flown spittys.
its the pilot.
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Get them below 150mph so they enter into a stall fight and you'll have the edge.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Get them below 150mph so they enter into a stall fight and you'll have the edge.
ack-ack
And if the P-38 is at 150 MPH you'll be hitting the floor..
Why not reword it to, if the Spit is at 150 MPH, and my P38 is doing 250 MPH and i enter a turnfight, then only then will i be able to out turn him.. Co Energy state there is no way a 38 can out turn a Spit with equal pilots at the controls..
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Originally posted by WldThing
And if the P-38 is at 150 MPH you'll be hitting the floor..
Now thaTs a funny, a 38 will loop at 120.
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Originally posted by WldThing
And if the P-38 is at 150 MPH you'll be hitting the floor..
You can loop the P-38L in this game with as little speed as 120mphIAS. The flaps give the P-38 amazing lift in this game and with the revamp of the flight model, the P-38's low/stall speed handling characteristics improved.
Take up the P-38 and get into some stall fights with Spitfires and N1K2s. And when I mean stall fights, I mean real stall fights were your speed in the P-38 will never get higher than 120mphIAS and frequently is below 100mphIAS for most of the fight. A Spitfire or a N1K2 will start to stall out as soon as they dip below 100mphIAS, mostly due to the torque at those speeds. While you will still be able to maneuver at those speeds, the N1K2 or Spitfire will be forced to break off and try to extend to regain energy. Basically, I'm just taking the stuff Lowell discovered when he dueled that Spitfire and applying it in here.
Now the problem that arises is if the Spitfire you're playing with isn't dumb enough to get into a stall fight with you and keeps his speed up between the 150mph-250mphIAS area, where he will easily out turn your P-38 if you're dumb enough to engage him.
I'm also not saying that a P-38 will win 100% of the time in a stall fight against a N1K2 or a Spitfire. The ultimate out come is up to both of the pilots but as far as planes go, the P-38 does have the edge in a stall fight. So if you do find yourself in such an engagement with a Spitfire or a N1K2, be aggressive and maintain the vertical in the stall fight so you can use your rudders to swing that nose down in the turns and work the flaps between 3/4 and full and you will have a chance of walking away the victor.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
And when I mean stall fights, I mean real stall fights were your speed in the P-38 will never get higher than 120mphIAS and frequently is below 100mphIAS for most of the fight.
Im sure i know what a real stall fight is, but i guarantee upon equal pilot skills, a P-38 cant out turn a Spit 9 or a Niki.. Even in a stall fight..
I'm also not saying that a P-38 will win 100% of the time in a stall fight against a N1K2 or a Spitfire. The ultimate out come is up to both of the pilots but as far as planes go, the P-38 does have the edge in a stall fight. So if you do find yourself in such an engagement with a Spitfire or a N1K2, be aggressive and maintain the vertical in the stall fight so you can use your rudders to swing that nose down in the turns and work the flaps between 3/4 and full and you will have a chance of walking away the victor.
Now here, when your indicating using vertical technique in a stall fight, thats quite impossible if your on the deck.. Id like to see a P-38 pilot engage a Niki Pilot on the deck, using your "Vertical Stall Fighting Technique" might work when your at a 10k altitude, but it surely wont work at the deck.. Perfectionist as you are in the high alt fights this may have lead you to believe the outcome of an alt fight shall be the same below, sadly thats is a false misconception.. Different rules do apply, as i do know the P-38 below would soon end up cannon fodder.
And again, upon equal piloting skills.
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Originally posted by WldThing
Id like to see a P-38 pilot engage a Niki Pilot on the deck, using your "Vertical Stall Fighting Technique" might work when your at a 10k altitude, but it surely wont work at the deck.. Perfectionist as you are in the high alt fights this may have lead you to believe the outcome of an alt fight shall be the same below, sadly thats is a false misconception.. Different rules do apply, as i do know the P-38 below would soon end up cannon fodder.
Fly the P-38 some before you make your assumptions and I'm not talking about a hop or two.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Fly the P-38 some before you make your assumptions and I'm not talking about a hop or two.
ack-ack
a 38 will loop and loop and loop at 120,
even on the deck. plus if you taket he fight around to the right the torque works against the single engine fiters. except yaks tiffs etc with reverse torque.
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Originally posted by X2Lee
aKAK a 38 wont out turn a spitfire. Altho I out turn spitfires it aint the plane, its the pilot. I DONT out turn the well flown spittys.
its the pilot.
Exactly X2lee , same applies in the hellcat. Can outurn the mediocre ones, but the good ones will do you up with ease.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Fly the P-38 some before you make your assumptions and I'm not talking about a hop or two.
ack-ack
Woops, i must be a noob... Pardon my nonsense..
If you had any ACM common sense you would have realized that ACM is the same throughout every plane selection.. Its not a requirement for me to be a P-38 pilot to realize the capabilities of that certain plane, it's knowledge of fighting them and flying in them over the course of 4 years that leads to the real understanding..
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Originally posted by X2Lee
a 38 will loop and loop and loop at 120,
even on the deck. plus if you taket he fight around to the right the torque works against the single engine fiters. except yaks tiffs etc with reverse torque.
How about i take a Niki and you take a P-38 at a 2k Merge and we go into loops at 120 MPH, and we will see who can loop longer?
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Originally posted by Redd
Exactly X2lee , same applies in the hellcat. Can outurn the mediocre ones, but the good ones will do you up with ease.
I hope you're not trying to say the F6F will out turn a P-38. If you are, ask Mathman if they can or can't :c)
ack-ack
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Originally posted by WldThing
Woops, i must be a noob... Pardon my nonsense..
If you had any ACM common sense you would have realized that ACM is the same throughout every plane selection.. Its not a requirement for me to be a P-38 pilot to realize the capabilities of that certain plane, it's knowledge of fighting them and flying in them over the course of 4 years that leads to the real understanding..
Yep, just like fighting and flying for over 10 years gives me an understanding...
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I didnt realize we were counting AW days too, make that 9 then ...
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Lookin' at the film.. That spit pilot was a newb.
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I hope you're not trying to say the F6F will out turn a P-38. If you are, ask Mathman if they can or can't :c)
ack-ack
wasn't actually what I was saying, was talking about hellcat V Spit , but the same applies to F6-f vs 38 . those two are pretty close so it will come down to who's flying them and how much variation in pilot skill
If the pilots were of absolutely equal skill I would actually probably back the 38 , it's vertical looping performance and E retention are too good
But I k/d pretty well against P-38's and you probably K/D pretty well against hellcats
There is a vast difference between a good 38 flier probably, and an average one , possibly to do with some of it's quirks.
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How much of this film are you guys able to view? My viewer crashes part way into the film. :-(
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wouldn't fuel load play into this as well, say the 38 is near 25% and the spit is 50% or even 75%, which would get the best performance over the other? there is alot of variables that come into play in the MA, to say exactly or not that it was the plane, or the skill, etc......it was not a staged fight like in a duel.
I don't fly spits in the MA, so I only have experience from DA or TA in it, but alot of people try to fight with less fuel 50% or less, maybe some 75% for climb out,
I seen some awesome stuff from all types of planes, I always wondered how much fuel load had an effect on how well they could manuever, I am a F4U flyer and I have to take 1 DT then start fight with 100% then at 50% or 40% ( less than 40% have to use throttle control and idle off) is time to RTB or it ain't gonna make it , how many of you fly your planes between 100% to 50% fuel loaded, and not less...to me is a whole different aspect then fighting less loads, unless you are actually on a perch.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
wouldn't fuel load play into this as well, say the 38 is near 25% and the spit is 50% or even 75%, which would get the best performance over the other? there is alot of variables that come into play in the MA, to say exactly or not that it was the plane, or the skill, etc......it was not a staged fight like in a duel.
I don't fly spits in the MA, so I only have experience from DA or TA in it, but alot of people try to fight with less fuel 50% or less, maybe some 75% for climb out,
I seen some awesome stuff from all types of planes, I always wondered how much fuel load had an effect on how well they could manuever, I am a F4U flyer and I have to take 1 DT then start fight with 100% then at 50% or 40% ( less than 40% have to use throttle control and idle off) is time to RTB or it ain't gonna make it , how many of you fly your planes between 100% to 50% fuel loaded, and not less...to me is a whole different aspect then fighting less loads, unless you are actually on a perch.
I always fly with either a 75% for 100% fuel load and while it might make my plane somewhat sluggish in certain maneuvers, I don't think having a heavy fuel load as hindered my ability to throw the sucker around.
But fuel weight can be a factor but I don't think it's a mitigating one.
ack-ack
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Most of the time when I beat Spitfires and N1K2s in my 38 in co-e engagements, I attribute it to differences in pilot skill. I even have a film where I win a 2 on 1 engagement with a N1K and a Spit on the deck, but I always chalk it up to lack of experience on their part. I wouldn't give myself good odds against a good pilot flying a N1K or a Spit V, because I know that if I was flying the Spit V against a clone of myself flying the 38, I'd win most of the time.
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Spitfires got flaps too, most pilots dont use them but they really help if someone trys for a stall fight.
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The P38 was capable of turn-fighting the Zero, in the hands of a capable pilot.
The stall speed, if my dvd is right, is @70mph. That pilot seems to know his chit. Check out the "Roaring Glory" series of dvd's at Amazon. Anyone who's played this game for a while would know better than to doubt AckAck's ability in the 38.
Lobsta
Ack Ack, any chance of some instruction in the 38 sometime?
I fly for BISH, I know I know, but I would really like to learn how to fly that plane well.
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Again, not saying this is a 100% way of killing a N1K2 but if you find yourself forced into a turn fight with one, fighting them like this can help you walk away. The key is using the strengths of the P-38 to take advantage of a weakness with the other guy's plane. Even with pilots of similiar skills, victory is often brought on by the one that can take advantage of his plane's strengths.
For some reason, the stall buzzer doesn't go off in the film. I guess that's kind of good since it was pretty much clicking non-stop.
P-38 vs. N1K2 (http://www.hispanicvista.com/ahfilms/film88.ahf)
ack-ack
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Spit9's aren't all that hard to kill in a turn fight. But like Wld said, if you get equal pilots in both planes the table starts to turn. SpitV's... Well thats a whole nother ball game. If you are going to turn you better to it fast and finish the job just as quick if you are the 38. There is no 38 stick that is going to get me down to 100mph in a spitV and live to tell about it.
The 38 performs well at low speeds but it doesnt do it as well as the spitV with full flaps and some rudder. NO way no how.
Niks, well again they are another story. They arent that great in the vert. Not as good as a 38 is when its light enough esp.
All are tough planes to beat. The spit9 now, once you learn to use the throt turns almost as well as the 5 and with flaps (if you can keep it in flaps) its a deadly stall fighter.
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"Basically, I'm just taking the stuff Lowell discovered when he dueled that Spitfire and applying it in here. "
Are you talking about the same Lowell and the same duel where he dived to insanely high speed right before the merge and the Spit didn't, hence giving him a massive advantage from the outset?
P-38 can do a lot, no doubt there, but pilot skill and initial advantage plays a big part too. Your average pilot will get more out of a Spit or N1K in a fight than a P-38.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by WldThing
Woops, i must be a noob... Pardon my nonsense..
If you had any ACM common sense you would have realized that ACM is the same throughout every plane selection.. Its not a requirement for me to be a P-38 pilot to realize the capabilities of that certain plane, it's knowledge of fighting them and flying in them over the course of 4 years that leads to the real understanding..
Ive fought u wild and I know yer quite the stick. But yer showing
a lack of knowledge about the 38. the 38 WILL loop at 120 endlessly and it will turn at 80 knots will flaps out without losing alt. And if you take the fight against the other planes torque
a nik aint that hard to beat. A spit is harder.
I still think most of its the pilot quality over the plane tho.
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I dont remember fighting you that often but who knows, my mind might be a bit out of wack :p .. Anywho, how about you try to do a loop off the Runway with a p-38 and tell me how succesful you were, and then try it in the Niki and tell me P-38 is still a better looper.
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I'm with Wld on this one... I don't see anyone in a P-38 beating a competent stick in a Niki or Spit 9 from a Co-E merge. I'd give the P-38 slightly better odds if it started out with an E advantage, but not much,
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Well I agree that a 38 doesnt have the stall problems and is very agile if flown right with flaps etc... however it still has the weight problems. If you turn in circles in one direction with a spit spiriling down, the spit will get you eventually. Max Ive ever circled with a spit was 4-5 cicles for an average opponent spiriling down to the deck. In a situation where 38 vs spit shoulder to shoulder trying to gain angles doing the weave after falling from altitude theres more of a chance. However I've seen spits take it into the verticle at near stall just before they are out of E. They go up and barrel roll flip trying to cause one to shoot pass. My defense is a hard break and we each go opposite directions. Spits accel like crap from low speed. So my point was that the spit guy has the option of pulling back and going verticle because he is lighter and has a lower wing loading.
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Finishing my beer then its off to bed. :D Anyways the reason why spitfires go down is because most of them are sucky. Only a handfull of ah spit pilots are worth their 14.99 a month. Flying spitfires for a long time will make you retarded.
:rofl
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Originally posted by senna
Well I agree that a 38 doesnt have the stall problems and is very agile if flown right with flaps etc... however it still has the weight problems. If you turn in circles in one direction with a spit spiriling down, the spit will get you eventually. Max Ive ever circled with a spit was 4-5 cicles for an average opponent spiriling down to the deck. In a situation where 38 vs spit shoulder to shoulder trying to gain angles doing the weave after falling from altitude theres more of a chance. However I've seen spits take it into the verticle at near stall just before they are out of E. They go up and barrel roll flip trying to cause one to shoot pass. My defense is a hard break and we each go opposite directions. Spits accel like crap from low speed. So my point was that the spit guy has the option of pulling back and going verticle because he is lighter and has a lower wing loading.
Theres a prob right there, u take the fight up not down
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Originally posted by senna
Flying spitfires for a long time will make you retarded.
:rofl
Yes, I'm telling Levi you said that! :p
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Theres a prob right there, u take the fight up not down
X2-lee, this thread was about turn & burn fighting not boom & zoom or energy fighting. In turn and burn, you turn alot and so thus burn off energy. In doing so, both opponents usually loose altitude in order to regain energy. There are no turn and burn fights that gain altitude. Once you start to gain altitude, you are energy fighting. When you control the altitude, you are boom & zooming.
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Originally posted by DipStick
Yes, I'm telling Levi you said that! :p
Hey dipstick, havent had the chance to fly with you yet. Been out of ah for a while now since I broke my controls. Anyways, yeah Levi is a good spit pilot. After I first encountered him, I later told Dex that he has met his match.
;)
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Originally posted by senna
X2-lee, this thread was about turn & burn fighting not boom & zoom or energy fighting. In turn and burn, you turn alot and so thus burn off energy. In doing so, both opponents usually loose altitude in order to regain energy. There are no turn and burn fights that gain altitude. Once you start to gain altitude, you are energy fighting. When you control the altitude, you are boom & zooming.
X2Lee is correct, keep the turn fight in the vertical plane. The P-38 has the ability to do this because the flaps generate quite a bit of lift. Together with the low stall speed of the P-38 and its handling at low speed, this allows the P-38 to put the fight in the vertical plane. There's a film that I have that Leviathn had made showing how the P-38 can loop endlessly with just using the flaps at low speeds.
When in a turn fight with a plane like the Spitfire or N1K2, I always try to keep it in the vertical plane as much as possible. This allows me to take advantage the weakness of these planes at low speed. These planes are single engine planes which naturally have torque and at low and high speeds it becomes a liability for these planes. The P-38 does not have this weakness because of the counter-rotating propellers, which gives this plane a slight advantage that you can exploit. I think both of those films I posted in this thread show what x2Lee was referring to.
The Spitfire and the N1K2 are good turn fighting planes but like all planes, they have their weaknesses also. It has been from my experience that it's best to turn fight these planes at speeds below 150mph IAS and above 275+mph IAS. Getting in a turn fight with either of those planes between those speeds will mean death for the P-38 as both of those planes will easily out turn you. The Spitfire and the N1K2 turn best at medium speeds and a P-38 pilot should avoid getting into a turn fight at those speeds with either of those planes.
And as always, I'm not saying this is a 100% way of defeating a Spitfire or a N1K2. These are just the tactics that I use when I'm those particular situations. YMMV though.
ack-ack
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Take up the P-38 and get into some stall fights with Spitfires and N1K2s. And when I mean stall fights, I mean real stall fights were your speed in the P-38 will never get higher than 120mphIAS and frequently is below 100mphIAS for most of the fight. A Spitfire or a N1K2 will start to stall out as soon as they dip below 100mphIAS, mostly due to the torque at those speeds. While you will still be able to maneuver at those speeds, the N1K2 or Spitfire will be forced to break off and try to extend to regain energy. Basically, I'm just taking the stuff Lowell discovered when he dueled that Spitfire and applying it in here.
How do you go verticle when your on the edge of stalling?
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Originally posted by senna
How do you go verticle when your on the edge of stalling?
Now, it wouldn't be called Stall Fighting if you didn't stall out sometimes would it? Stall loops and stalling Yo-Yo's are two examples. Don't be afraid to stall the P-38 in a turn fight, it recovers quickly and gently and stalls at a lower speed than Spitfire or a N1K2.
These tactics also require some level of experience as you really have to know how to use the flaps, throttle and rudders and be able to work them all together simultaneously.
ack-ack
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If your near stalling the only way you can go up is if you point your nose down and trade accelerationa nd distance for some altitude. Energy conservation, it aint free. During this time the fight is droping altitude, your slight zoom is relative.
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And I'll add something that most who play ah for a while would know. If your in a stall fight and your in front and you go up, chances are the guy chasing with shoot you.
:lol
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
These tactics also require some level of experience as you really have to know how to use the flaps, throttle and rudders and be able to work them all together simultaneously.
ack-ack
ack, I guess we have different philosfies when it comes to flying. Thought I would share my own experiences but I guess you have the stall fighting with spitfires all figured out. Ive tangled with you in the ma before and your always a good fight.
:D
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In the P-38, if you are somewhere between 115mph and 100mph IAS with 3/4 flaps deployed, you can pull into a loop and as your plane starts to stall as it begins the top part of the loop, deploy the last notch of flaps and this will cause the nose to swing down, bringing you over the top of the loop.
If you deploy the last notch of flaps at the correct time, your plane will do more of a flip with the nose pointing straight down instead of a loop. If you do it early or too late, you run the risk of wallowing on your back as long as it takes you to kick the rudders to swing that nose down. So doing it early or late will most likely result in your death.
When my nose is pointing down again, I'll raise one notch of flaps back to 3/4 deployed. If the maneuver is done correctly and time right, it can lead to a very nice shot opportunity on the other plane as they try to maneuver to match you. If at this time I have a shot, I'll take it. If I don't have a shot and the other plane continues to turn, I usually do another stall loop or sometimes I'll go into a High Yo-Yo and as I near the top of the Yo-Yo, stall my plane out and roll it over, again deploying my last notch of flaps as I near the top and start the beginning of the Yo-Yo and raising it immediately after my nose swings downwards again.
Throttle control is also important as when you go into the stall loops, I have the throttle at 100% with WEP on and then as I start the loop, I chop throttle and deploy the last notch of flaps to full. When the nose swings down, I slam the throttles to full, hit WEP and raise flaps to 3/4. This allows me to recover with minimul loss of altitude and recover enough energy that I can perform another stall loop if necessary.
ack-ack
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I've done some stall fighting in a Spit 9 against a P-38. With some manuevers, the P-38 has the edge (for example looping like that)... with some others the Spitfire has the edge.
Easiest way for the Spitfire to win is to go vertical, period. The Spit 9 can climb, and be steady, at 70-80 mph. It is tough to get behind a plane doing 70-80 mph. Every time the P-38 looked like he was going to get a shot on me, I'd break into him and climb, and start scissoring (like a flat scissors, except I kept climbing steeper than he could) if he tried to follow me. If he didn't, I'd just continue my turn and come down behind him.
The P-38 actually comes pretty close to being as good as a Spit 9 in a stall fight, but it isn't as good by any means. Plus one other gigantic disadvantage is the P-38s size, it is considerably easier to hit a P-38 with a snapshot than a Spitfire.
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Originally posted by senna
And I'll add something that most who play ah for a while would know. If your in a stall fight and your in front and you go up, chances are the guy chasing with shoot you.
:lol
Thats 100% true...
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I have seen ack-ack do some moves when slower than 200. Pull a loop and end up on a bogies tail. Hes even done it to me. Its a nice move but I dont know how to pull it.
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I was interested to note that you use flaps when going vertical to begin the loop AKAK. I always found i could get more vert out of the 38 by always having them up when climbing, then dropping to 3/4 at the peak of the loop. My throttle managment seems to be pretty well the same however.
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Originally posted by LSJ
I was interested to note that you use flaps when going vertical to begin the loop AKAK. I always found i could get more vert out of the 38 by always having them up when climbing, then dropping to 3/4 at the peak of the loop. My throttle managment seems to be pretty well the same however.
Look at the speed that I'm at when I start my loop. I am at stall speed or very close to it and I use the flaps to bring my nose over the top of the loop. I only do this when I'm doing stall loops.
ack-ack