Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on August 09, 2004, 11:36:22 AM
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Of this constant bashing of a war veteren. Yea I'm talking about Kerry.
All this "questionable medals" crap is just that... crap. You (cons) all should be ashamed of yourselves for your hypocrisy. You claim to be pro-troop and patriotic to the core, yet you have no trouble spitting on a man who actually put himself in harms way.
I'm out of these threads, they sicken me.
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Support the troops... by putting an American flag on your bumper sticker with "I support the troops" written on it.
Great support right there.
-SW
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Of this constant bashing of a war veteren. Yea I'm talking about Kerry.
All this "questionable medals" crap is just that... crap. You (cons) all should be ashamed of yourselves for your hypocrisy. You claim to be pro-troop and patriotic to the core, yet you have no trouble spitting on a man who actually put himself in harms way.
I'm out of these threads, they sicken me.
And I thought it was the heighth of patriotism to spit on troops from the Vietnam war.
Are you saying then that war proptestors are un patriotic?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And I thought it was the heighth of patriotism to spit on troops from the Vietnam war.
Are you saying then that war proptestors are un patriotic?
Sorry Grun.. you can bait someone else with that junk.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And I thought it was the heighth of patriotism to spit on troops from the Vietnam war.
Are you saying then that war proptestors are un patriotic?
Ya know... It is indeed possible to protest a war without spitting on the soldiers that fight it. To do so is the height of ignorance.
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Ohhh no MT, its your own stinky bait right there. That supposed hypocricy of cons is what you clearly implied in your post.
But lets get to the issue, the real issue. It is in no way unpatriotic to question an individual soldiers record in a war. And thats whats happening right here to Kerry as more info comes about his 4 month stint in the Swift boats. In particular it is relevant because the Kerry team is using that 4 month period as such a big part of the campaign.
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This bait doesnt even smell good. Its an unscented plastic worm and Ill have none of it.
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Ramming speed!
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i agree MT. anyone who served doesn't deserve this.
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I'm out of these threads, they sicken me.
Don't let the door hit ya.......
If he is using his war record part of his run...then it will be scrutinize for accuracy...after all he is a politician and gee we all know they are the most honest people on the planet..thats why we elect them right? Sure he's a vet...so what...He lost my respect by becoming an anti war activist when he got back..as far as I'm concerned he disgraced himself, his service, and his country. Now he tries to use that military service to his advantage? Hipocracy at it's greatest.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
i agree MT. anyone who served doesn't deserve this.
Wrong.
Basically what MT is saying that any veteran's war record should beyond scrutiny.
That's simply insane and there are million obvious reasons why thats true.
MT is simply pissed that his candidate is being attacked on the central theme of his campagn.
What MT should be more pissed about is the fact that the Democratic party nominated a 20 year US Senate veteran whoose strongest campaign theme seems to be a 4 month stint on a patrol boat in Vietnam.
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Have any of you tried out SP2 for XP?...if so....any problems?
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Odd that we get criticism on Kerry's Vietnam War decorations when this is the alternative.
(http://www.freep.com/voices/edit_art/042904_mt.jpg)
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.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You claim to be pro-troop and patriotic to the core, yet you have no trouble spitting on a man who actually put himself in harms way.
Kerry should have considered that back in April when he started (without provocation) attacking Dubya's service.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Have any of you tried out SP2 for XP?...if so....any problems?
None that can't be blamed on the users...
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BTW where was all this Democratic fervor for military service in 92, 96 and 2000? And yes I specifically mention 2000 with the full knowledge of Gore's time in Vietnam.
It wasnt a big deal in 92 and 96 for obvious reasons. And it wasnt a big issue in 2000 because even Al Gore could muster up a respectable government record...
But in 2004 now it's a huge deal! Biggest issue going, the centerpiece of the convention. Why? Because John kerry has 20 years in the Senate with no significant accmplisments, nothing. Nothing except one of the most vigorous anti-military and anti-defense records in the Senate. If there was a vital weapos system in development Kerry voted to cut it, over and over again. He voted to cut CIA funding in the 1990s. He voted against GW1.
Really Dems ask yourselves what sort of guy you are getting sold here when your left wing party is pushing a 20 year Senate veteran with the most liberal voting record of his generation largly on the controversial repuation of a young 4 month Vietnam war veteran... Kerry hasnt got much to run on, he knows it, his handlers know it, and I think you guys know it too...
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Kerry should have considered that back in April when he started (without provocation) attacking Dubya's service.
You honestly believe that nonsense?
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Originally posted by 1K0N
None that can't be blamed on the users...
good. think we get the norwegian version in about 3 weeks time.
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(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Components/Newsweek/Galleries/nw_gal_DNCcolor_040729/nw_gal_DNCcolor_a_ccol_tease.jpg)
Im counting on you MT. Dont give up the fight for me!
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right, since people insist on making military service records a issue, instead of the important issues, i now have to demand a complete and total review of every americans military service. anyone who recieved a medal that there is even the slightest hint of not being deserved we shall have to publicly ridicule.
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Sorry, I have to agree with Grun on this one. Kerry can't/won't run on his record in the Senate. He is afraid that if the undecided middle knew exactly how liberal his record is (To say nothing of his ambulance chasing sidekick), they would run to the hills. Or to Bush.
And he knows that even in polls where he's a percentage point or two ahead, the majority of people see him as weak on defense and terrorism when compared to Bush.
Well, if he can't run on his Senate record and he's perceived to be weak on defense, then he has to stump behind his war record. (And let's not forget how well that worked for Bush Sr. against Clinton, who didn't even bother to play the NG card or some deferment, he left the country). "John Kerry, reporting for duty". "I'm John Kerry and here's a bunch of guys I served with." I'm Jonn Kerry and here's a picture of me in uniform."
Kerry is attempting to wrap himself in the flag with such gusto that it would make a conservative blush. And he has to.
However, if he wants to run on his war record, then he opens himself up for scrutiny on such. And if that scrutiny comes at the hands of other Veitnam vets, then he's screwed. Because even if they aren't right about him gaming the system and puffing up his record to collect medals, it still tarnishes his record.
Now here is where the Bush team must play this correctly. And take a page from the Clinton handbook. Clinton was a draft-dodger of the highest order facing two genuine war heroes in Bush Sr. and Dole. There was no way he could even hope to compete with them there. So he marginalized it. And that is what Bush Jr. must do. If he's smart, at every debate and every time it comes up, he must politely recognize Kerry for bravely serving our country. And then immediately say, "But I'm not here to discuss what he did 30 years ago in the service. Or even to talk about his testimony in Congressional hearings after that. I'm here to talk about what he's done from the second he got into the Senate. And that is to consistanatly have the most liberal voting record there. He voted to raise taxes, slash military funding...etc., etc." If done correctly, Bush could even set a tone so that Kerry looks petty and vindictive if he tries to steer the debate to Bush's NG service.
Kerry is weak on his Senate record. Marginalize the service and let other groups fight him on it. Attack Kerry the Senator, not Kerry the Ltjg. and Bush will walk over him.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Ohhh no MT, its your own stinky bait right there. That supposed hypocricy of cons is what you clearly implied in your post.
But lets get to the issue, the real issue. It is in no way unpatriotic to question an individual soldiers record in a war. And thats whats happening right here to Kerry as more info comes about his 4 month stint in the Swift boats. In particular it is relevant because the Kerry team is using that 4 month period as such a big part of the campaign.
You have no right to question anyones service to thier country. Period.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Odd that we get criticism on Kerry's Vietnam War decorations when this is the alternative.
(http://www.freep.com/voices/edit_art/042904_mt.jpg)
The usual retort to questions about Kerry. "Oh yeah, well have a look at THIS!"
:rolleyes: <--- Oy vey, now you've made me do it!
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PS, I love political cartoons.
(http://cagle.slate.msn.com/working/040806/bok.gif)
Chip Bok, The Akron (Ohio) Beacon-Journal
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Originally posted by Pongo
You have no right to question anyones service to thier country. Period.
sure you do when it IS their platform for election to the highest office in the land
MT,bro, don't give up on him B4 the book is released - LOL
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895260174.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
the guy was a con artist then as he is a con artist now, difference being now some ppl are paying attention to his double speak spew
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You have no right to question anyones service to thier country. Period.
WRONG !
You are a public servant open to public scrutiny...Where were all you to defend Admiral Boorda's record back in the 90's when he was being attacked for allegedly wearing an award he did not earn. He was scrutinized and ridiculed and I can't recall anyone defending his honor for serving.
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Originally posted by rpm371
You honestly believe that nonsense?
Facts are nonsense?
Kerry started this pissing match. He and his supporters should not be surprised that he's getting wet.
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Originally posted by Pongo
You have no right to question anyones service to thier country. Period.
:rofl
Wow! Thats practically fascist, WTG Pongo!
First MT and now Pongo basically saying that its inappropriate, unacceptable, unallowable, even unpatriotic for people, civilans in particular, to scrutinize the actions of soldiers in war.
Amazing!
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Kerry brought it on himself.
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Nice ad hominem Pongo.
And yeah it's ridiculous. All citizens have a right to question any public servant. At least in America. That whole democracy thing ya know?
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Originally posted by Pongo
You have no right to question anyones service to thier country. Period.
I am utterly amazed at that statement! Moreso since it has come from you Pongo.
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Kerry has absolustely no record of significance to run on, none, nada, nothing. This is espec8ially outrageus in light of the fact that he is running against GW Bush. So he has to run on his controversial 4 month stint in nam - and that controversy is coming back to haunt him as more info comes out.
I understand that this is really tough for you guys beacuse I really do belive that you think Bush is bad for the USA and want somebody better to rteplace him in the hope of making a better country. Thats fine, we all want a better nation.
But I am shocked that this is causing you liberals to become like nazi fascists and abandon all their basic principles of democracy, civil accountabilty and openness of information or debate. Just step back and read what you guys wrote. Basically saying that war veterans, that soldiers are beyong public scrutiny for their war conduct just beacuse they served or beacuse they were there.
Thats pure fascism, plain and simple. It was wrong in the 1930s/1940s and it is wrong now.
YOU ARE WRONG!
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Anyone ever see that This Land thing by jabjive or something. I hear it is cute and fund!
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A few more thoughts:
Maybe Pongo is singling me out beacuse he is still upset abouyt that joke that he took so very badly. So again I offer my apologies as no harm was intended to you, a guy I met and like.
Second what pongo said also has me thinking if he believes that only people with military service should be allowed to vote in elections where ex soldiers are running. Because if a non soldier like me cant evaluate a soldiers service record then by extension does it not mean I shouldnt be allowed to vote for soldier candidates because that record is invariably some a part of that campaign. And, at least in part, I would make my decision based on that record?
Wasnt there some fascist leaning book where only ex soldiers could vote or participate in public political life. Is that what you want?
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Yes Grun,
The book was called Stormship Troopers: The This Land Sequel.
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Yes Kerrys service can be questioned. But only by veterans themselfs.
Not by tulips like Grunhertz. Live life a bit more Grunhertz and then maybe we will take what you have to say seriously.
Regards.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Yes Kerrys service can be questioned. But only by veterans themselfs.
More Fascism! This is amazing!
For the fascists! This is what some 200 of Kerry's Vietnam peers think of his 4 month stint in Vietnam.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895260174.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
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You have no right to question anyones service to thier country. Period.
Bull pucky. you have every right to question the facts of a Presidential candidates credentials. As Kerry is running on his stin in the service and nothing else, we have the right to go over it w/ a fine tooth comb. Period.
You, Pongo, have slammed Bush's service repeatedly, farging hypocrite.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
More Fascism! This is amazing!
For the fascists! This is what some 200 of Kerry's Vietnam peers think of his 4 month stint in Vietnam.
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0895260174.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)
Ok, let me rephrase, he certainly cant be questioned on it by you...
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I think the over all attack on Kerrys service by the limp wristed right that prefer that others die for there country could be summed up like this.
they hate that fact that he did serve. They attack the fact, nature and duration of his service. He wounds and the wounds he inflicted are attacked. Any that support him that served with him are attacked.
I think your poor boys protest too much.
You should get together and breed a new race of super soldiers based on Grunhurtzs image that can keep your country safe just by sitting on a bbs and attacking those that have put thier lives on the line for your country.
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What I find funny is that we should question Kerry's military record but NOT question Bush's military record (like did he really go AWOL in 1972?) or criminal record (like did he have a cocaine possession charge in Huston expunged from his record?).
Yea, thats damn hilarious :rofl
Where was Bush in 1972? Who knows
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Originally posted by Pongo
I think the over all attack on Kerrys service by the limp wristed right that prefer that others die for there country could be summed up like this.
they hate that fact that he did serve. They attack the fact, nature and duration of his service. He wounds and the wounds he inflicted are attacked. Any that support him that served with him are attacked.
I think your poor boys protest too much.
You should get together and breed a new race of super soldiers based on Grunhurtzs image that can keep your country safe just by sitting on a bbs and attacking those that have put thier lives on the line for your country.
Hey Einstein, the people making the accusations served next to Kerry in VN.
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What I find funny is that we should question Kerry's military record but NOT question Bush's military record (like did he really go AWOL in 1972?)
You're kidding right? I mean seriously, you're kidding. Where have you been the last year? Certainly not on this board or you'd have not typed such drivel.
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Again - NOT an answer lol. Where the hell was he? PLEASE give me a link the explains where he was in 1972 when was supposed to be in Alabama. Was he working on a campaign?
This is getting to be like "Find Waldo"
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
What I find funny is that we should question Kerry's military record but NOT question Bush's military record (like did he really go AWOL in 1972?) or criminal record (like did he have a cocaine possession charge in Huston expunged from his record?).
Yea, thats damn hilarious :rofl
Where was Bush in 1972? Who knows
Want to ask questions? It's your right to do so. Exercise it. When, however, you answer a question about one's service record by pointing a finger at the other's, you accomplish nothing and leave the question unanswered.
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Why not?
Why cant I examine his actions in Vietnam when he makes such a big deal out of it?
Maybe one of you fascist guys should just do this to me:
(http://www.uncp.edu/library/instruction/images/kent_state.jpg)
HOW DARE I QUESTION HIS SERVICE!!!
Pretty cool, ha fascists? Then I could never say anything bad about Kerry again..
Unbelivable. I could never have imaghined all you would turn into fascists just to defend Kerry.
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>>When, however, you answer a question about one's service record by pointing a finger at the other's, you accomplish nothing and leave the question unanswered.<<
I don't see any honest question about Kerry's service record - its all documented. You might not agree with his medals but its all documented how recieved them and where he served.
There are lapses in Bush's service record. Why would I be asking about the documented service record when Bush's is such a mystery? Grounded in 1972, he was supposed to go to Alabama, but it seems he never showed up. He also wasn't placed on active duty for missing the physical, as he should have been. Did he really go AWOL?
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Over the top.
Why not? i guess you have proven why not.
Idiot. <--- Personal attack.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>When, however, you answer a question about one's service record by pointing a finger at the other's, you accomplish nothing and leave the question unanswered.<<
I don't see any honest question about Kerry's service record - its all documented. You might not agree with his medals but its all documented how recieved them and where he served.
There are lapses in Bush's service record. Why would I be asking about the documented service record when Bush's is such a mystery? Grounded in 1972, he was supposed to go to Alabama, but it seems he never showed up. He also wasn't placed on active duty for missing the physical, as he should have been. Did he really go AWOL?
He was getting his teeth cleaned while Kerry was throwing the medals he didn't earn over the wall.
I mean the ribbons.
the medals.
the ribbons.
the medals.
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Er that picture is of the shooting of an unarmed student at Kent State by a National Guardsman. You sure you want to tread those waters?
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Your attitrude is plain fascism.
It's you who is the idiot if you cant see that.
But you are Swedish, no? I understand your complusion to keep one's wartime activities out of the spotlight...
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
Er that picture is of the shooting of an unarmed student at Kent State by a National Guardsman. You sure you want to tread those waters?
Absoloutely, yes I do. They were unarmed civilans shot dead beacuse they were questyioned wartime acts. According to our Neo-Fascists here civilans dare not question anyobodys war service.
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Uh Oh.
Ya, we are a evil nation. Come here and take our WMD´s away from us before its too late...
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I really have no idea Tweety. The way I see it, the truth in both cases probably lies somewhere between the party lines, as it often does. It's really an un-issue for me since military service alone doesn't make for a qualified POTUS. Character and integrity, however, go a long way with me but it's an unfortunately difficult thing to judge from my living room or desk, especially the last 3 months before an election. From the outside looking in, the whole thing seems pretty bleak.
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wow this thread has exploded, MT what kinda bait are you using.
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I don't agree with that at all - I don't think a service record should be SMEARED. Kerry's records are in order - its all documented. There ARE no questions - just attemps to smear it.
There are, however , very real questions about Bush's record (the military record - not the criminal - allthough there are questions about that too).
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
wow this thread has exploded, MT what kinda bait are you using.
I think it's called exasperation. :D
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
I don't agree with that at all - I don't think a service record should be SMEARED. Kerry's records are in order - its all documented. There ARE no questions - just attemps to smear it.
There are, however , very real questions about Bush's record (the military record - not the criminal - allthough there are questions about that too).
Ok, so disagree. I'm not trying to change your mind about anything. ;)
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Why not?
Why cant I examine his actions in Vietnam when he makes such a big deal out of it?
Maybe one of you fascist guys should just do this to me:
HOW DARE I QUESTION HIS SERVICE!!!
Pretty cool, ha fascists? Then I could never say anything bad about Kerry again..
Unbelivable. I could never have imaghined all you would turn into fascists just to defend Kerry.
You obviously think you can serve better then Kerry did. When DO you sign up for the army?
The clock is ticking...
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>> Character and integrity, however, go a long way with me but it's an unfortunately difficult thing to judge from my living room or desk, especially the last 3 months before an election. From the outside looking in, the whole thing seems pretty bleak.
<<
I think you're right on the mark. There is no clear choice yet and all this crap about records is just that. Hopefully the debates will clear things up a little.
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Maniac you can twist your fascist nonsense into any combination of words or perspectives you can dream up but it will never change the fact that you are wrong. The essence of democracy is openness of criticizm and debate and civil accountabilty, the very things you are arguing against...
Is it worth becoming a fascist to defend Kerry?
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
I don't agree with that at all - I don't think a service record should be SMEARED. Kerry's records are in order - its all documented. There ARE no questions - just attemps to smear it.
So, eyewitness accounts of his lies don't count?
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Didnt you see when i rephrased? i said YOU cant comment/critizise on Kerrys service and expect to be taken seriously... everyone else on this board can go ahead.
After all we all know djust who you are. Your fasad is gone a long long time ago.
Im sorry.
Please move along.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Didnt you see when i rephrased? i said YOU cant comment/critizise on Kerrys service and expect to be taken seriously... everyone else on this board can go ahead.
After all we all know djust who you are. Your fasad is gone a long long time ago.
Im sorry.
Please move along.
Ahhh, but YOU can defend and praise him? What makes you more qualified?
That being said, I'm not criticizing his service. I'm replaying the testimony of others who do, that were there.
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Mmmm?
Where did i do that... Defend him i mean. Im djust fed up with Grunhertz, thats all.
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More fascist nonsense. You are saying that civilans can never judge the actions of soldiers. Thats basic facism.
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You know what im saying.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Mmmm?
Where did i do that... Defend him i mean. Im djust fed up with Grunhertz, thats all.
Ahhh. You're the "I have nothing to say about the topic but I'll hop in here to bash Grun" crowd.
Carry on then.
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Thank you.
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Maniacowned!
LOL This has got to be the first time a pinko pacifist is saying that no civilian has the right to question the actions of a soldier.
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No Maniac, I dont.
Actually do me a favor go find a post of mine where I criticize Kerry's service, where i make a judgement about his actions in vietnam. At least in this thread I think the worst thing I said was that his 4 months were controiversial. and it clearly is a controvery is it not?
Now dont chicken out of it, go find it. Show it to me. Let me see what criticism you take such offense at.
I'm far more concerned about his wasted 20 years in the Senate, and so is Kerry which is why he focuses so much on those 4 months in nam.
Where I am pissed is this nazi attitide of your's about Kerry's service being off limits to civilan review. Thats kind of fascism is unacceptable to me and I will not shut up about that.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
I don't think a service record should be SMEARED. Kerry's records are in order - its all documented. There ARE no questions - just attemps to smear it.
There are, however , very real questions about Bush's record (the military record - not the criminal - allthough there are questions about that too).
You got that dead solid perfect.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Maniacowned!
LOL This has got to be the first time a pinko pacifist is saying that no civilian has the right to question the actions of a soldier.
Amazing isn't it? I'm calling them Neo-Fascists!
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In almost every case I'll initially go for a guy that served over a guy that didn't serve.
Clinton/Bush Sr., Clinton/Dole.... no question. Gore/Bush, I consider that they both served honorably. Kerry/Bush, I consider that they both served honorable.
So the military service issue in this election is over for me.
Now...... who's fit to be POTUS?
Well, Bush should be running on his last 3 1/2 years in the ACTUAL JOB. The Dems should be attacking on that performance.
Kerry should be running on his record in public service, his Senate record. The Republicans should be attacking on that performance.
There's enough dung in both those heaps for a shirt-slinging mud fest by all parties.
Does the fact that both of them achieved 1 LT rank in the military qualify them as POTUS? Duh....... NO! These guys don't have an Eisenhower type military record. They were JUNIOR OFFICERS and that's all.
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>>Well, Bush should be running on his last 3 1/2 years in the ACTUAL JOB. The Dems should be attacking on that performance.
Kerry should be running on his record in public service, his Senate record. The Republicans should be attacking on that performance.
There's enough dung in both those heaps for a shirt-slinging mud fest by all parties.
<<
Agree 100%
Its just so fun to stir the dittos when they whip themselves into a frenzy :D
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In case you pinkos miss it from the other thread...
132 Cong.Rec. S3564-02
AMENDMENT NO. 1718
(Purpose: To restrict assistance to the Nicaraguan democratic resistance to humanitarian assistance, and for other purposes)
**************
The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Senator from Massachusetts is recognized.
Mr. KERRY. Thank you, Mr. President...
[...]
Finally, President Nixon, 1970. "In cooperation with the armed forces of South Vietnam, attacks are being launched this week to clear out major enemy sanctuaries on the Cambodian-Vietnam border."
Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia.
I have that memory which is seared-seared-in me, that says to me, before we send another generation into harm's way we have a responsibility in the U.S. Senate to go the last step, to make the best effort possible in order to avoid that kind of conflict.
Mr. President, good intentions are not enough to keep us out of harms way.
Captain's Quarters has posted the letter from the Swift Boat Vets, her is the intro and the portion to do with the Christmas in Cambodia;
Dear Station Manager:
The purpose of this letter is to present some of the factual support for the advertisement "Any Questions?" produced and used by Swift Boat Veterans For Truth ("Swiftvets"), an organization properly registered under Internal Revenue Code § 527, and which has filed all required reports. Swiftvets is an organization led by Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann, USN (retired), Commander of all Swift boats in Vietnam during the period of John Kerry's four-month abbreviated tour in Swift boats between late November 1968 and mid-March 1969. A list of the 254 members may be found on http://www.swiftvets.com. A large majority of those who served with John Kerry in Swift boats in Vietnam and whose location is known have joined the organization. Thus, for example, sixteen of the twenty-three surviving officers who served in Coastal Division 11 with Kerry (the place where Kerry spent most of his time) have joined the organization, together with most of Kerry's Vietnam commanders and 254 sailors from Coastal Squadron One, ranging from Vice-Admirals to Seamen.
The purpose of Swiftvets is to present the truth about John Kerry's post-Vietnam charges of war crimes and John Kerry's own Vietnam record. Swiftvets is uniquely positioned to do so since it includes most of the locatable sailors and officers who served with John Kerry in Vietnam.
John Kerry has made his Vietnam record the central focus of his presidential candidacy, depicting purported Vietnam events in nearly $100 million in advertising. Copies of ads such as "Lifetime" and "No Man Left Behind" may be found on Kerry's website. Kerry's authorized campaign biography, Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War, by Douglas Brinkley (New York: HarperCollins, 2004) ("Tour"), centers on his short Vietnam tour and contains Kerry's account of these events. Additional accounts by Kerry of his Vietnam experience may be found on his website...
[...]
C. Christmas In Cambodia
If there is a consistent[1] repeated story by John Kerry about his Vietnam experience, it is his story about how he and his boat spent Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 illegally present in Cambodia and, listening to President Nixon's contrary assurances, developed "a deep mistrust of U.S. government pronouncements." See Exhibit 24, Kranish book, p. 84. The point of his story was that his government and his commanders were lying about Kerry's presence in Cambodia on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. During a critical debate on the floor of the United States Senate on March 27, 1986, Senator John Kerry said:
Mr. President, I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the President of the United States telling the American people that I was not there; the troops were not in Cambodia.
I have that memory which is seared -- seared -- in me . . . .
Exhibit 25, Congressional Record - Senate of March 27, 1986, page 3594.
By way of further example, Kerry wrote an article for the Boston Herald on October 14, 1979:
"I remember spending Christmas Eve of 1968 five miles across the Cambodian border being shot at by our South Vietnamese allies who were drunk and celebrating Christmas. The absurdity of almost killed by our own allies in a country in which President Nixon claimed there were no American troops was very real."
See Exhibit 26.
The Christmas in Cambodia story of John Kerry was repeated as recently as July 7, 2004 by Michael Kranish, a principal biographer of Kerry from The Boston Globe. On the Hannity & Colmes television show, Kranish indicated that Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia was a critical turning point in Kerry's life.
The story is a total preposterous fabrication by Kerry. Exhibit 8 is an affidavit by the Commander of the Swift boats in Vietnam, Admiral Roy Hoffmann, stating that Kerry's claim to be in Cambodia for Christmas Eve and Christmas of 1968 is a total lie. If necessary, similar affidavits are available from the entire chain of command. In reality, Kerry was at Sa Dec -- easily locatable on any map more than fifty miles from Cambodia. Kerry himself inadvertently admits that he was in Sa Dec for Christmas Eve and Christmas and not in Cambodia, as he had stated for so many years on the Senate Floor, in the newspapers, and elsewhere. Exhibit 27, Tour, pp. 213-219. Sa Dec is hardly "close" to the Cambodian border. In reality, far from being ordered secretly to Cambodia, Kerry spent a pleasant night at Sa Dec with "visions of sugar plums" dancing in his head. Exhibit 27, p. 219. At Sa Dec where the Swift boat patrol area ended, there were many miles of other boats (PBR's) leading to the Cambodian border. There were also gunboats on the border to prevent any crossing. If Kerry tried to get through, he would have been arrested. Obviously, Kerry has hardly been honest about his service in Vietnam.
[/b]
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Well, Bush should be running on his last 3 1/2 years in the ACTUAL JOB. The Dems should be attacking on that performance.
Kerry should be running on his record in public service, his Senate record. The Republicans should be attacking on that performance.
There's enough dung in both those heaps for a shirt-slinging mud fest by all parties.
<<
Agree 100%
Yep.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
>>Well, Bush should be running on his last 3 1/2 years in the ACTUAL JOB. The Dems should be attacking on that performance.
Kerry should be running on his record in public service, his Senate record. The Republicans should be attacking on that performance.
There's enough dung in both those heaps for a shirt-slinging mud fest by all parties.
<<
Agree 100%
Its just so fun to stir the dittos when they whip themselves into a frenzy :D
any guess as why skerry isn't using his lifetime political experiences??
you think the dung has hit the fan concerning his 4 month war hero tour? you ain't seen nothing yet - his politics for the past 30 years will truly show his agenda and lack of leadership/resolve
"I SEE COMPLEXITIES"
LOL
:rofl
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Hortland , very nice thank you. Guess our buds on other side havent found a way to twist your post as I havent yet seen a reply.
Lets see ,while back the liberals had a grand chance to vote for 2 true heros. They voted for someone who hated the military and didnt even join the guard as janitor.A man full of lies and deceit. their motto was....Military service has nothing to do with it.
Now they have a chance to vote for someone that has expearance as commander in chief during war time, someone a huge majority of those in harms way now, would like to keep as cic. But no...they will vote for another man, that is full of lies and deceit, a vet that lied about christmas 1968 [ lier] a vet that wont open all his military records and wont talk about his senate votes [deciet].....A true American hero that recieved 3 purple hearts, 2 of which no one knows who recommended him for them and 1 of which he recieved for shooting his bellybutton full of rice....This is your hero?? Ya I guess it would be.
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Again - NOT an answer lol. Where the hell was he? PLEASE give me a link the explains where he was in 1972 when was supposed to be in Alabama. Was he working on a campaign?
What rock have you been under? Bush released ALL of his records. Has Kerry?
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Originally posted by Maniac
Yes Kerrys service can be questioned. But only by veterans themselfs.
Not by tulips like Grunhertz. Live life a bit more Grunhertz and then maybe we will take what you have to say seriously.
Regards.
Sweat Jeasious TehWobble moved to Sweden?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Of this constant bashing of a war veteren. Yea I'm talking about Kerry.
All this "questionable medals" crap is just that... crap. You (cons) all should be ashamed of yourselves for your hypocrisy. You claim to be pro-troop and patriotic to the core, yet you have no trouble spitting on a man who actually put himself in harms way.
... they sicken me.
AMEN!
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Originally posted by Pongo
attack on Kerrys service by the limp wristed right that prefer that others die for there country
The "attack" is being lead by people who put their lives on the line right there with Kerry. And most of them for more than 4 months.
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Really? The attacking I see is from people that wouldnt dream of putting thier lives on the line for thier country for 4 minutes.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Really? The attacking I see is from people that wouldnt dream of putting thier lives on the line for thier country for 4 minutes.
Who would that be?
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Pongo doesn't get it Funked....best to just let him do what he does best....wallow in confusion:)
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Wow Pongo, can you give me a link to some of their books or speeches or press releases? Or are you just making yet another ad hominem attack against people you disagree with on this board.
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No.. I swear! I'm out of this thread!
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Tweety bird.....
If you will show me where kerry was, christmas of 1968 and tell me who was president, christmas of 1968 .
I promise I will spend 2 and 1/2 hours on the puter trying to find out about 1972.....Deal?......If not than drop the 1972 bit.
PONGO....and just who would that be?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
No.. I swear! I'm out of this thread!
No you dont. Come back here you Fascist!
"Ascent through dissent"
NO DISSENT ALLOWED IN AMERIKA!
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Maniac I'm still waiting. Maybe Pongo can help you look...
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>>If you will show me where kerry was, christmas of 1968 and tell me who was president, christmas of 1968 .
I promise I will spend 2 and 1/2 hours on the puter trying to find out about 1972.....Deal?......If not than drop the 1972 bit.
<<
Where was Kerry? Sa Dec or Cambodia - Kerry claims Cambodia, others claim Sa Dec. At least its narrowed to 50 mile radius. Lyndon Johnson was President. Nixon was the President-elect.
Now pay up - where the hell was George W. Bush in 1972?
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No Maniac, I dont.
Actually do me a favor go find a post of mine where I criticize Kerry's service, where i make a judgement about his actions in vietnam. At least in this thread I think the worst thing I said was that his 4 months were controiversial. and it clearly is a controvery is it not?
Now dont chicken out of it, go find it. Show it to me. Let me see what criticism you take such offense at.
I'm far more concerned about his wasted 20 years in the Senate, and so is Kerry which is why he focuses so much on those 4 months in nam.
Where I am pissed is this nazi attitide of your's about Kerry's service being off limits to civilan review. Thats kind of fascism is unacceptable to me and I will not shut up about that.
I never said that you did criticize him, i said that you dont have the right to criticize him.
And imho you dont.
So take a few deep breaths, count to ten or something and relax.
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
I don't agree with that at all - I don't think a service record should be SMEARED. Kerry's records are in order - its all documented. There ARE no questions - just attemps to smear it.
There are, however , very real questions about Bush's record (the military record - not the criminal - allthough there are questions about that too).
Yeah he admitted to commiting atrocities. But hey other guys did it too! Besides he was ordered to do them!
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One down, one hundred million to go!!! :D
Personally I am sick and tired of someone who is using what certainly appears to be a fraudulent war record as a tool to try and get elected to the most important position in the United States.
I am also disgusted by a candidate who is showing a television advertisement saying we need a strong military when his congressional voting record shows he wants exactly the opposite. He has voted against a strong military every time it has come before him. There can be no bigger hypocrite. There can be no bigger phony, no bigger liar that that.
dago
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Originally posted by Maniac
I never said that you did criticize him, i said that you dont have the right to criticize him.
And imho you dont.
So take a few deep breaths, count to ten or something and relax.
LOL
No civilan can review the actions of soldiers!
So you admit that you are fascist?
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I didnt say NO civilian lol!
You still dont get it :lol
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Originally posted by Maniac
I didnt say NO civilian lol!
You still dont get it :lol
Oh you mean just me? Just me as as individual?
Well I'm just an average US civilan.
So if I dont have the rigfht to criticize a soldiers record then no ther average civilan can.
Your basic argument is founded in fascism regardless of the way you try to spin it. This makes you a fascist.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Oh you mean just me? Just me as as individual?
Well I'm just an average US civilan.
So if I dont have the rigfht to criticize a soldiers record then no ther average civilan can.
This makes you a fascist.
WooHoo!
Finally!
:aok
No, your not the average US civilian. I dont even consider you a real American.
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Originally posted by Maniac
No, your not the average US civilian. I dont even consider you a real American.
Afther your whole tirade in this thread, you are qualified to judge this how? Where do you live again?
It's not gonna win you any points for belittling an immigrant US citizen, thats what this country was built on. It's pretty desperate attack too.
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OK, but this is my LAST post on the subject!
If you really believe that Kerry's service record has been proven fraudulent, you probably also believe that Clinton actually was convicted of wrong doing, that Filegate or Travelgate or Whitewater actually amounted to anything at all, except a stupid BJ. That the list of "Questionable Deaths" surrounding Clinton mean anything at all, that the Easter bunny sounds like a chicken and that .......... nevermind!
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What tirade. Your always showing your manure over on others. It was your tirade lol.
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Originally posted by Maniac
What tirade. Your always showing your manure over on others. It was your tirade lol.
Your tirade about who is qualified to criticize others..
I suppose it doesnt apply to you...
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Somehow I think that kids under 30 who doesn't own their own apartment or house and car shouldn't talk about politics and politicians.
They don't know **** about the realities of life and are just too immature.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Of this constant bashing of a war veteren. Yea I'm talking about Kerry.
All this "questionable medals" crap is just that... crap. You (cons) all should be ashamed of yourselves for your hypocrisy. You claim to be pro-troop and patriotic to the core, yet you have no trouble spitting on a man who actually put himself in harms way.
I'm out of these threads, they sicken me.
but calling a fighter pilot who was in a squadron with pilots deployed in vn a "draft dodger" is somehow ok. do me a favor and call the surviving relatives of every ang pilot who bought the farm while flying in non combat zone and explain to them how daddy was really "avoiding the dangerous assignments" in the military. let me explain something if bush jr was afraid of physical harm theres a ton of guard jobs he could have taken that would have guranteed no chance of going to vn and almost no chance of physical harm.
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The louder you guys scream Bush AWOL, the louder will you hear the questions about Kerry's service... Neat how well politics works out...
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Originally posted by anonymous
but calling a fighter pilot who was in a squadron with pilots deployed in vn a "draft dodger" is somehow ok. do me a favor and call the surviving relatives of every ang pilot who bought the farm while flying in non combat zone and explain to them how daddy was really "avoiding the dangerous assignments" in the military. let me explain something if bush jr was afraid of physical harm theres a ton of guard jobs he could have taken that would have guranteed no chance of going to vn and almost no chance of physical harm.
I NEVER called Bush a draft dodger.
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>>but calling a fighter pilot who was in a squadron with pilots deployed in vn a "draft dodger" is somehow ok. <<
No it isn't. But be clear on this, when Bush passed the pilot portion of the officers test (25th percentile), he requested NOT to serve overseas. And the fact that he jumped ahead of a 1 year waiting list to get in the guard, the fact that he wasn't returned to active duty after failing to show up for a physical, kinda shows George W. usually got what George W. wanted.
But no - he's no draft dodger. Just doing what most of us would've done. He's a regular guy living in a regular glass house wondering why the dittoheads have started a rock war.
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Tweety bird....where was bush in 1972?
Some liberals say he was campaigning....
Some conserv. say he was at the guard air base.
I am sure the answer is not to your satisfaction, as your answer is not to mine. Just link me some where that says where he was,or If you know say so .... thanks
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>>Tweety bird....where was bush in 1972?
Some liberals say he was campaigning....
Some conserv. say he was at the guard air base.
I am sure the answer is not to your satisfaction, as your answer is not to mine. Just link me some where that says where he was,or If you know say so .... thanks
<<
welcher
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Tweety bird.....
Welcher??? come on Tweety you know better than that.
What is the differance between: kerry says cambodia,
others claim sa dec.
Liberals claim he was campaigning,and awol
others claim he had reported to air base.
I know the claims....I want to know the truth about kerry...you have the truth please share it. If you dont know just say it ,Ill say I dont know about bush and leave it at that.
Come on be a straight shooter on this one.
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I hardly think that ANYONE here , if they had the right connections, wouldn't pass up a chance for a preferable assignment. It's human nature. Is it right. probrably not, but more people than Bush have done it. And how can anyone who supports the Dumbocratic party talk any S**T about Bush staying out of 'Nam. After all Slick Willie was a draft dodger all together. At least Bush served in some form.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Sweat Jeasious TehWobble moved to Sweden?
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Originally posted by Staga
Somehow I think that kids under 30 who doesn't own their own apartment or house and car shouldn't talk about politics and politicians.
They don't know **** about the realities of life and are just too immature.
There goes most of Kerry's votes...
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I NEVER called Bush a draft dodger.
I thought you were out :)
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Why does it have to be 30..I'm 28 and I've seen alot....I've paid my dues...I shouldn't have a say? I'm a "veteran" as a matter of fact I have 11 years active Naval service as of this month.I'm an E-6 and my division's Leading petty Officer. Do I not qualify? I have 2 cars. I have an apartment. I have 3 kids ages 2-7 . Do I still not qualify because I'm not old enough? Ones age doesn't really dictate their maturity level. I've seen many people older than I am with more property than me, do/say alot of stupid and immature things. Including typing stupid sh*t like that on this BBS.
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I think most start thinking on an adult level after 26 or so. After 40, you tend to get more conservative (in everything) with each passing year :D
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Originally posted by TweetyBird
I think most start thinking on an adult level after 26 or so. After 40, you tend to get more conservative (in everything) with each passing year :D
at 26 I had a 7 year old and a new born - think I'm ahead of your curve :)
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Yea babies will speed up the process without a doubt :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
I thought you were out :)
I am...
Oh crap!
:eek:
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MT
Did Kerry stand in the Senate in 1986 and say he was in Cambodia in the Christmas of 68?
Was he in Cambodia in the Christmas of 68?
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More info
As further evidence, the vets say, Kerry himself reflected in his own journal that his buttocks' wound came, not from a mine but, rather, from a grenade tossed into a rice cache.
Sworn statements of those present say there was no hostile fire involved in this incident for which Kerry receive his third Purple Heart and the coveted Bronze Star.
"The conclusion is inescapable: that Kerry lied by reporting to the Navy that he had been wounded by shrapnel in his backside from an enemy mine when in reality he negligently wounded himself and then lied about the wound in order to secure a third Purple Heart and a quick trip home," reads the letter.
"All normal documentation supporting a Purple Heart is missing," the letter says. "There is absolutely no casualty report (i.e., spot report) or hostile fire report or after-action report in the Navy's files to support this 'Purple Heart' because there was no casualty, hostile fire, or action on which to report. The sole document relied upon by Kerry is a record showing the band aid and tweezers treatment by Dr. Letson recorded by deceased corpsman, Jess Carreon.
"There are no witnesses who claim to have seen hostile fire – necessary for a Purple Heart (even a rose thorn Purple Heart) – that day. At least three witnesses, Dr. Letson (who spoke to the participants and removed the M-79 fragment), Lt. Bill Schachte (on the boat), and Cmdr. Grant Hibbard (whose investigation revealed Kerry's application for a Purple Heart to be fraudulent), are able to testify directly or based upon contemporaneous investigation that Kerry's first Purple Heart was a fraud," says the letter.
I don't think Dr. Letson, Lt. Schachte, and Cmdr. Hibbard can be blown off as Republican hacks. And please note, Lt. Schachte was actually on the same boat.
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Although I haven't researched the topic.. It would seem that Kerry was 50 miles off.
I wonder how close GWB was to his claimed duty station?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Although I haven't researched the topic.. It would seem that Kerry was 50 miles off.
I wonder how close GWB was to his claimed duty station?
well according to boston globe and new york times "Bush logged numerous hours of duty, well above the minimum requirements for so-called 'weekend warriors." but hey if moveon.org says all he was was cowardly fighter pilot youd better stick with that.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Although I haven't researched the topic.. It would seem that Kerry was 50 miles off.
As I've said, I think this whole thing is rediculous.
However, when it comes to claiming you were in a country illegally as part of our nation's military and laying blame on the President, fifty miles away is far more than enough to make it clear you're lying.
How about we focus on Kerry's 20 years in the Senate?
How about we focus on Bush's years actually in the job he's reapplying for?
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Amen brother.
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Yea why doesn't Kerry focus on his 20 years of service in the Senate?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yea why doesn't Kerry focus on his 20 years of service in the Senate?
{Sounds of a fish flip flopping, gasping for air...}
^^Thats why...inconsistent.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Yea why doesn't Kerry focus on his 20 years of service in the Senate?
cause it'd make this photo seem like he is looking at his reflection in a mirror - LOL
(http://kerry.senate.gov/low/i/r0013.jpg)
who'd want a ted POTUS?
well, I guess the ABB gang would not care ...