Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: thebest1 on August 09, 2004, 11:45:22 PM
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A submarine would be cool in AH but idk how you could counter attack them without using other subs... still i think itll be cool
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Er ... you can hardly counter attack a sub with a WWII sub. You'd need a corvette or a destroyer.
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Sub vs sub warefare in WW2 was rare/nonexsistant. Especially in the early days without even the basic acousticly guided torps.
In ww2, most sub sinkings were either by depthcharge, or attacking the sub while it was on the surface running diesels.
In AH2, subs would be likewise vulnerable on the surface, and with the exception of the Type IXD with its large AA gun complement, or the 'ack-nest' moded type VII's, the subs would be quite unable to do more than dive.
If they added a sub, they would need to add depth bombs for aircraft at the least. And even then, the only subs I could see them adding are the early Type IIC (weakling), or the Type IXD series (fast enough to flank CVBG's...on the surface....barely)
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Yes ... THC neds to modle death charges and soobmareen!
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If ya model subs, ya gotta model Freighter Convoys, then ya gotta model ports... then ya gotta model subpens... then ya gotta model.... ad infinium
Seriously tho, I like to see Convoys added to the game, as they played such a major factor in WW2.
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Freighter convoys, modeled
Ports, modeled
Sub pens, modified VH
Ad infinium, (guns, torpedoes, wakes, etc.) mostly modeled
Model subs? What do you think the squid was for? :)
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Originally posted by thebest1
A submarine would be cool in AH but idk how you could counter attack them without using other subs... still i think itll be cool
If they get subs in this game, y'all will have to watch out! I'm a former sonar operator aboard the USS Alaska. I play sub games better than flight simulators.:D :aok
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Are people really going to sit for hours doing nothing until they find something? What kind of game play would you expect from a sub?
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Subs are somthing Ive always wanted to put in the game. My father is a WWII submariner. USS Carbanaro
Basicly how they would work, is simalar to how convoys and gunners work. You wouldn't just be able to launch a sub then have to drive it for hours to it's destination. What would happen is a subs way points would be set. They would drive themslefs to where you wanted. Once on some one could take control of one of the subs.
Other things also need to be written for subs to be implemented namly sonar for surface ships and depth charges.
HiTech
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Sub vs sub warefare in WW2 was rare/nonexsistant. Especially in the early days without even the basic acousticly guided torps.
It was a bit more common in the Pacific, but that was US subs ambushing Japanese (and even some German "transport" subs i believe) as they ran on the surface moving to of from station due to the code breaking activities. A sub v. sub battle as in that joke U-971 or like we have today was nonexistant though.
Charon
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I agree with Mars for the most part.
There would need to be a major redisign to gameplay to really make Subs worthwhile.
A year or so ago, I was reading Clash of Titans, by Walter Boyne (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684839148/qid=1092151879/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-2067840-9603922) and started kicking around ideas for increasing the role of shipping in AH. I thought I had some pretty decent starting points, but in the end, it would really be a totally different game, and in the end, I imagine that HTCs resources would be better served focusing elsewhere.
Anyhow, the short answer is to have transport ships and shipping lanes added to the Strat on some maps. This would allow Subs to have a reasonable was of knowing where shipping (Read: Targets) would be, and would also give Destroyers and Catalinas (wink) a reasonable idea of where to look for submarines. Award ship perk points for succesfull convoy escort missions and for ship/sub kills, and voila we're on our way.
-Sik
[edit]
Ooops, my post was overtaken by events lol.
[/edit]
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Subs are somthing Ive always wanted to put in the game. My father is a WWII submariner. USS Carbanaro
That's very cool. I got into subs when the USS Silversides was docked here and then there is the U-505 of course. I assume you've read Clay Blair Jr.'s Silent Victory. Probably the bible of US sub operations in WW2.
The probelm I've had with WW2 sub combat simulations is the time involved after the attack during the escape portion. Sitting there for two or three hours real time trying to avoid the depth charge attacks and creep away can get a bit dry.
Charon
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That's cool about your dad. Cool site on the history...
http://216.36.202.94/carbonero/index-page3.html (http://216.36.202.94/carbonero/index-page3.html)
Ahh I see,
Sonar and depth charges sounds cool. Will be interesting to see.
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Mars01: Dad is back row 2nd from the left on the commision crew picture.
HiTech
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Hitech, I can see the resemblance. :)
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Cool, I saw his name on the registry. I was hoping you were going to point him out.
Too cool.:aok <>
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Hitech it is your combat sim and i for one would love to sneak in on a carrier and torp the poo out of it so go ahead give us subs " PLEASE". Then all we would need is some PBY's with Depth Charges to kill the little bugger's :D
I would like to take this time to thank you for AH the versatility of this Combat Sim is unparalled in my book.
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I would think that depth charges would be dropped automatically from destroyers in a task group, much like flak is. maybe a little less precise though. I wanna see how a depth charge's explosion would be modeled :aok
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If you had flying boats able to carry depth charges you solve some of the problem of spotting and attacking. Still have to have some way to turn position on map plus depth into sonar so destroyers can hunt subs & subs can evade destroyers.
I agree subs would need a lot more targets to attack. Fleets should IMO be slowed down a bit unless they are willing to out run the fleet oilers & run out of fuel in a day or less.
Slow, lightly armed merchant convoys would be the key. Make em hard to kill with bombers/jabo but easy meat for a fish or 2.
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Subs...very cool :)
would be cool to be able to have the corvette to hunt them down..
*hint, hint* throw this fat old Canadian a bone?
Very cool about your Dad HiTech...<<>>
RTR
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how about a sub fleet with a I400 as the main sub?:D fly an aircraft off it:D .
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Originally posted by Charon
That's very cool. I got into subs when the USS Silversides was docked here and then there is the U-505 of course. I assume you've read Clay Blair Jr.'s Silent Victory. Probably the bible of US sub operations in WW2.
The probelm I've had with WW2 sub combat simulations is the time involved after the attack during the escape portion. Sitting there for two or three hours real time trying to avoid the depth charge attacks and creep away can get a bit dry.
Charon
Have you read "United States Submarine Operations in World War II" by Theodore Roscoe? Blair pales in comparison. Originally a monster hard cover published by the U.S. Printing office, it was abridged and released as a paperback, re-titled "Pig Boats". You can find the paperback (used) at Alibris.com for as little as $3.00 plus shipping. It's quite a lot of reading at 445 pages. Hard cover originals are very hard to come by and command prices up to and often exceeding $250.
Here's a link to
Alibris (http://www.alibris.com/search/search.cfm?qwork=7749852&ptit=Pig%20Boats&pauth=Roscoe%2C%20Theodore&pisbn=&pqty=35&pqtynew=0&pbest=2%2E95&matches=35&qsort=r)
My regards,
Widewing
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Subs LOL worthless
iv allways wanted destorys and cruisers and battle ships made as perk boats and you could spawn them from a port or base like a PT boat but not from the CV lol
the + to this is that with a battle ship you could shell a base go after a fleet have squads do there own convoy
a Ship could do alot more then a SUB could do in AH right
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If we get subs I want a Swordfish :D
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Thanks Widewing, I'll check it out. Blair offers a lot of detail but it is a bit dry.
Charon
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All this talk about subs - I bought a sub sim game.
That was cool - now I am sick of it.
I am over subs......
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Subs would be ok,buuuutt,i think a supply convoy would be great to maybe resupp the ports faster (plus it would great to be hunting for somthing else besides just the cv)
Maybe put a few cruisers around it for protection,and make it to where we could controll it to resupp the ports we choose:rolleyes: soooo,whatta ya think:D
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yes yes give me subs
:aok
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/277_1092238879_scannen.jpg)
dramatic view of a gunner on a sub
from an avenger
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/277_1092240418_scannen0002.jpg)
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Subs are just one of many vehicle's that i would like to see in this Combat Sim. The possiblities are limitless but it all comes down to one thing does Hitech want it in here. Right now they have alot on there plate so as far as i am concerned when and if we get the vehicle's that we would like to see i will be ecstatic.
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When HT give us subs maybe an U-boat I'll have an excuse to grow a beard, then you can call me FrigattenKapitaen Der Glassoid :D
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Ahh the subs.Brings back memories of hours playing Aces of the Deep.Trying like hell to get out alive after an attack run.You want to see a great sub flick get Das Boot The directors cut.
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Operation Petticoat.
(http://jollyrogers.info/SHIIPacAce/op-2.jpg) (http://jollyrogers.info/SHIIPacAce/OPetGoingDown.wav)
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I've been watching the U96 movie once in a year for a while, and the subs are quite interesting.
The German subs (well, the early ones) were related to Finnish subs, for example Vesikko (http://uboat.net/boats/vesikko.htm), so I'll be glad for any subs and more so for any of the U-series.
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Originally posted by hitech
Subs are somthing Ive always wanted to put in the game. My father is a WWII submariner. USS Carbanaro
Basicly how they would work, is simalar to how convoys and gunners work. You wouldn't just be able to launch a sub then have to drive it for hours to it's destination. What would happen is a subs way points would be set. They would drive themslefs to where you wanted. Once on some one could take control of one of the subs.
Other things also need to be written for subs to be implemented namly sonar for surface ships and depth charges.
HiTech
HiTech, give your Dad a big salute and a thank from one diesel boat sailor to another. He is very lucky he survived. Over 50% didn't. KY...Jellyman
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My $0.03 USD on the sub thing;
- 1. How deep does a sub have to be before you cannot see its shape from the air? (I guess how deep until no light reflects, but what's that in feet?)
- 2. New modeling needed for collateral damage from near miss bomb drops on surface, and especially under water?
- 3. (beating the dead horse) besides myself and a few others, How many players are willing to spend hours trying to evade the enemy?
- 4. Sub AI? Will they attack enemy shipping automatically? (there'd be a chance to test weapon effectivness against subs imho :cool: )
And that is all for now.
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As a dedicated LTA fan I want the K series blimps.......
I heard that no convoy escorted by one ever lost a ship......
Sneeking with blimp see shadow drop the charges boom dead sub.....
Also how about the R4b ... Navy C47 with radar and depth charges they have one at the airport south of Arlington
Gunns
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Subs would be awesome,:aok
if anybody interested in cool sub game try
"Enigma Rising Tide"
all voice commands, fun and hard.
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Err, how would the sub see underwater for the player?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Err, how would the sub see underwater for the player?
From a former sonar operator aboard the USS Alaska SSBN732B...
(SO)und (NA)vigation (R)anging
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No, I meant what would the player actually be looking at to navigate around.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, I meant what would the player actually be looking at to navigate around.
i suppose you would be looking at a round screen with blips on it,( sonar) or looking thru a periscope while running shallow,or by bringing up ur map as to ur location,same as ur plane.
Sonar732,would have to tell you,seeing he's the man to tell you what went on in the past,,good question tho,HT would have to do some fact finding as to how WW11 subs did it .Sawman
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Originally posted by sawman
i suppose you would be looking at a round screen with blips on it,( sonar) or looking thru a periscope while running shallow,or by bringing up ur map as to ur location,same as ur plane.
Sonar732,would have to tell you,seeing he's the man to tell you what went on in the past,,good question tho,HT would have to do some fact finding as to how WW11 subs did it .Sawman
maybe a modified clipboard map on a sonar screen that only gave you sound contacts instead of dar? The rest of the time you'd be looking at guages telling you depth, speed, heading, tube status. etc.
The periscope (only operable near the surface) would probably resemble the main gun sights on the panzers only with a horizontal deflection bar as well.
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The thing to remember is how to combine gameplay with realism. I see post all the time complaining that an aircraft or vehicle model isn't modeled correctly. HT would have their work cut out for them because if you have the ability to change speed on the sub, the skimmers would start demanding that they have the ability to change speed also.
EDIT: I don't feel that a person "driving" the sub should have the ability to "see" surface platforms that are far away. To keep the realism, they shouldn't be able to see the fleet until they either
a. see while running on the surface
b. find it thru the periscope and
c. find it by using the sonar hydrophones
Then we get into the whole resupply situation. How many torpedo's will the sub have initially and how close to a friendly port will it have to be in order to resupply? Don't forget, subs had AA also to protect against planes. Another thing to think about is if the sub is sunk...they HAVE TO start at the port...no starting 5-10 miles away like a vehicle can. If HT or anyone has any questions, please feel free to pm me.
Here are a few things to look at concerning WW2 sonar...
http://www.zerobeat.net/submarine/sub-sonar.html
Look at the station to the right with the two circles in this picture.
http://www.maritime.org/tour/img/tctsteer.jpg
Here are a few more b/w photos of the sonar units.
http://www.maritime.org/radio-wca.htm
http://www.maritime.org/radio-jt.htm
http://www.maritime.org/radio-jp.htm
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Originally posted by mars01
Are people really going to sit for hours doing nothing until they find something? What kind of game play would you expect from a sub?
Mars,
There are quite a few "classic" submarine simulators that you do just that...sit for hours looking for something. Here is just a sampling of WW2 subsims. These games were the benchmark
for subsim enthusiast everywhere.
Silent Hunter I & II
Aces of the Deep
Silent Service I & II
Personally...I think if HT is going to place subs in the game that they need to look at the above games for ideas.
;) :aok
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
No, I meant what would the player actually be looking at to navigate around.
Most likely a scrolling map, a la Silent Service II, etc... :lol
Speaking of sub sighting blimps... Did you folks know that Great Britain was using Autogyro's to tune their coastal radar?!?!?!?
I want an autogyro!
:aok
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If we get Subs then We *Need* the Fw200;) :D
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There are quite a few "classic" submarine simulators that you do just that...sit for hours looking for something. Here is just a sampling of WW2 subsims.
I've played all of those, and the one thing they have that you can't have in here is time compression (when searching for targets and during evasion even). I think you can overcome the hunting aspect with spawn points. But the evasion aspects would be a different issue. In RL a kill on a sub contact could be scored very quickly, or it might drag on for a day or more.
In here the escort commander would likely get bored (unless the escort aspect was AI, which is one way to do it) and give up earlier than was historical.
Charon
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Well, no one ever makes you sit for an hour trying to down an enemy fleet. Yet again, it would be a choice in game. No one makes you play the ground aspect. No one makes you play the air aspect. Your 15 bucks, do what you want.
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what HiTech was thinking about subs. It's a bit dated, but does give you some clues of how he might approach this subject. I happen to be good friends with the author;) , so you can trust the source:D .
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Read what?
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What rasker said.
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Originally posted by Rasker
Read what?
This is what they were inquiring about for us to read.
Basicly how they would work, is simalar to how convoys and gunners work. You wouldn't just be able to launch a sub then have to drive it for hours to it's destination. What would happen is a subs way points would be set. They would drive themslefs to where you wanted. Once on some one could take control of one of the subs.
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Whoops. The link didn't show up. Sorry for that guys. Looks like Sonar found it okay. I don't have time to grab the link again for the entire article. There's some cool stuff in it about the first-person shooter HiTech wants to incorporate into the game.
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Here's the link...better late than never.
http://www.wargamer.com/articles/aces_high_interview_main.asp
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So everyone doesn't have to search thru the pages...granted Sabre...this was done in 2001!
HITECH: Submarines will basically use a fleet-type positioning system with the ability that, when the fleet of submarines, the wolfpack or whatever arrives [at the waypoint], you’ll be able to do the detailed control of it. You’ll get to aim the torpedo. You get to do all the fun stuff on the submarine; but the fact of the matter is, for a submarine to travel thirty miles at night is an immense amount of time. Nobody wants to spend that amount of time controlling a submarine. So what you’ll do is you’ll set down a waypoint [on the map] for the submarines, to get them into position to intercept a fleet, where you think they’re coming in. As they come into range, suddenly you get to jump into the simulation, the detailed fun part of the submarine element. That’s how the submarines will work.
On ground warfare, what I envision at some point is a first-person shooter run as a secondary item to base capture. What I’m sort of envisioning in the end is something that would run along the lines of a C-47 dropping a spawn point at the [enemy base’s] map room. The map room now is expanded to a full, underground bunker-warfare, first-person shooter. The defender always gets to spawn in the bunker. The attackers, now for the next thirty minutes, they can spawn people in the bunker, and there’s this big, first-person shooter war happening underground to do an actual [base] capture.
SABRE: So your going to take it basically all the way down to the individual with a rifle and some hand grenades?
HITECH: Absolutely! What I’ve figured out is, there are four aspects to combat. You’ve got fighter planes, you’ve got ground vehicles, you’ve got bombers, and you have infantry. None of the four people, none of the four aspects want to go fight each other. Vehicles want to fight with vehicles; bombers want to go bomb stuff; fighters don’t want to mess with bombers; bombers don’t want to mess with fighters; and infantry don’t want to mess with anybody…they just want to go fight the other infantry. What you do is provide a mechanism in the game that makes that happen.
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Are people really going to sit for hours doing nothing until they find something? What kind of game play would you expect from a sub?
Once upon a time there was a game called Everquest... so the answer is yes! All freakin day and night if they have to. :rofl
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The nice thing about having a game with something else to do while you wait to do something else is the something else to do part, I reckon.