Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on August 10, 2004, 04:59:00 PM
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What was the greatest combat rifle of all time? (We need more gun threads)
I would like to include current assault rifles
I would have to go with the AKM. (reliable, decently accurate, simple.)
I think the M16 series is overrated.
I know this has been done before, but so have all the BS politics threads.
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Realistically, AK-47. Also up for consideration, IMO:
Lee Enfield or Mauser K98? Both served effectively in WW1-2 and the Enfield in Korea as well I believe.
Garand? WW2 and Korea, innovative and reliable.
Charon
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I was going to toss the Garand up, it was a fantastic rifle.
The AkM/AK-47 is prolly a better all around gun though for Military use.
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Certainly for geopolitical impact nothing beats the various AKs.. Theres a 100 million of those damn things floating around the world. That and the RPG have made made the world a much more difficult place for major powers.. fediddleing commies...
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What about the MP5 family for urban warfare and CQB? Or the P90?
Daniel
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daisy red rider
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FN-FAL
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I've been reading about the XM-8 lately. It sounds like Gods gift to riflemen.
Copmlpletly modular and lighter than the M16.
Anyone shot one of these yet.
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Cyrano
The MP5 is a Sub Machine gun.
I think the P90 fits in that category as well.(though I know little about it)
Not true rifles at all, and I do not think should count here.
That would be, “what is the greatest sub machine gun of all time”
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Ever seen MP5 in a flag?
Gotta say AK-47; that weapon has its own place in history of firearms.
http://www.vexilla-mundi.com/mozambique.htm
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AK-47 by far is the best rifle of modern times...
Mauser K98 for WWII
Of course if going by standards, the M1 Garand is what help win the war..
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The Garand and AK-47 are likely the top 2. Tough, accurate and easy to maintain.
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AK-47, Diemaco C8, H&K G3
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FN Fal.
But I am only speaking from my limited experiance.
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"Of all time" is pretty tough. Hard for some of the better early ones to compete with modern stuff.
I'd probably go with the AK-47; awesome firepower on the cheap and highly reliable.
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Pongo
You have owned a FAL? Or you used one in the Army?
I have always wanted one, but you can not really buy them in Cali anymore.
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Interesting not one M16/AR-15 fan has popped in yet.
:D
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if i didnt know where i was going or what i was going to be doing but had to pick a rifle id pick a g3k. 7.62x51 hits hard good range and the g3 has rails for goodies. ak is a great assault rifle but to inaccurate at range compared to contenders. love the m14 but no rails. m16 is very good weapon now has been for a long time it just has lingering bad press from long ago. and big problem with 5.56x45 was not size of round but type of round against type of target 5.56 does just fine in combat. as far as "greatest of all time" i dont know enough about older than vn era weapons to judge.
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Originally posted by Pongo
FN Fal.
But I am only speaking from my limited experiance.
carbine barrel fn fal in 7.62 is very popular again in iraq right now. only reason id pick g3 series over it is not all fn fal have rails do they?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I've been reading about the XM-8 lately. It sounds like Gods gift to riflemen.
Copmlpletly modular and lighter than the M16.
Anyone shot one of these yet.
yes. light and easy to move like m4 but better accuracy and newer design so recoil more managable than m4 if you using fa. didnt get to really run it through paces but very impressed with what i saw and felt.
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Ah ok, rifles only.
Then what about the Steyr AUG? Ok, it's pretty expensive, but apart from that? I'd like to hear from you guys. Anyone actually fired it?
Daniel
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Originally posted by Hawklore
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Mauser K98 for WWII
I've got one of those. Nice weapon.
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My vote would be the AK series on the basis of having the greatest impact on the world like Grun mentioned. The Garand would be second only because of its relatively short lifespan but it certainly was superior to anything else on a mass production scale at the time. Plus, they're just soo cooool.
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I've been reading about the XM-8 lately. It sounds like Gods gift to riflemen.
Copmlpletly modular and lighter than the M16.
Anyone shot one of these yet.
Yes. Excellent weapon with a few shortcomings. It isn't quite "Joe proof" yet since some of the pins for the modular buttstock and a couple other pieces could easily get lost. Also, I'm not a big fan of the caliber although it has proven itself up to the task over the last 30-something years. It runs great tho and believe it or not recoil is actually less than the M16/M4. In fact, you can hold a full auto burst pretty steady on targets even from the shoulder. Personally, I'd love to see them issued after a couple small improvements are made to overall field serviceability.
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Originally posted by Martlet
I've got one of those. Nice weapon.
Me too. It's a 1938 machined code "42" from I think the Oberndorf plant? It's my fav rifle! I also have a Carl Gustav M98 made in 1902 Cal 6.5x55 that is an incredible tack driver. Mausers overall = great rifles.
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Not a rifle, but the Tower Musket AKA the "Brown Bess" was the main service long firearm used by the British Army from the early 1700's to the mid 1800's at the height of its Empire. If it did not have more geopolitical impact than the AK-47, its a damn close second. If it has to be a rifle, then the Henry Repeating rifle (the cowboy's Winchester) would be my pick. It was used by many countries, not only in the US West.
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Originally posted by anonymous
carbine barrel fn fal in 7.62 is very popular again in iraq right now. only reason id pick g3 series over it is not all fn fal have rails do they?
Its just a different reciever cover if you want rails. What have they been doing with the 7.62 nato round? anything exotic?
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Well, for geopolitical impact I would submit the Dreyse needle gun. It was the first breech loading rifle in widespread use by a major power, and was largely responsible for Prussia's victory in its 1866 war with Austria-Hungary, thus setting the stage for the emergence of a Prussian-dominated German nation.
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One vote would be for the Enfield which was in service from before WW1 to the 80's as a sniper rifle.
However, in my experience shooting M16's, AK's, HK's, Galil's, Valmet's, AUG's, and any number of other weapons, my choice would also be the FN-Fal. The weight is not excessive, fires the .308 Nato round, can be modified in a short para version or the full size battle rifle, is realitively controllable in full auto and very accurate out past 500 yards.
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People give the Mauser K98 too much credit for what it was. It was a short, light combat rifle, with a painful recoil. Great accuracy, of course, and the ammo was quite powerful, but still, it comes nowhere close to the original...
Mauser G98 (Gewehr 1898, or Rifle 1898). This is the king of them all, people. Full stock. Better recoil. More accurate than any combat rifle ever made. Smoothest bolt action in history. Oh, and my grandpa took one as a souvenir from a deceased German soldier in WWII (yes, Germany had many G98's in use in WWII, more than the K43, or G43, in fact).
It had only been fired about 4 times before my dad sold it.
Anyway, the Mauser G98 is the German rifle that should be mentioned in all of these topics, not the K98. Oh, and don't forget about one of the finest Muskets of all-time... The 1810 Prussian Potsdam (percussion version). Not even close to being a rifle, but it's still worth mentioning.
The G98 wins the long-range firing battle... But for close quarters. I would take the AK-47. It's very tough, rugged, and reliable.
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Dune, how did the AUG fare compared to all others you mentioned? I'm just curious because I own an airsoft replica and I'd like to know how the real thing shoots :)
Danile
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Originally posted by Pongo
Its just a different reciever cover if you want rails. What have they been doing with the 7.62 nato round? anything exotic?
not that im aware of but i was shooting 5.56 then 6.8 then back to 5.56. i think 7.62 nato popular because its same as always big and fast and puts down what it hits and unless you in urban area you actually will find use for extra effective range at some time or another. ive had no problems with 5.56 myself but there was more than once in afghanistan where shooting upslope at range i would have loved to have m14 g3 or fn fal.
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Wouldn't proper neofascist policy limit this thread to combat infantrymen only?
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Aug was...well, different :)
It was accurate, but the feeling was off to me. If I'd spent enough time with it, I probably could have become comfortable with the bullpup design. My dad's was one of the first imported to the US so it was semi-auto only. I didn't like the magazine placement so far back on the stock. I didn't feel it was as easy to reload as one further forward. The recoil was very managable in semi and the site was easy to use for target shooting, but like everything else, it would take something to get used to in combat situations.
Several of my dad's friends were Federal LEO's and he and them were graduates of Jeff Cooper's Gunsite academy. We would all go out in the desert and run combat drills, combat pistol/rifle/smg shooting drills and competitions. Great fun.
So I've run combat-type simulations with all of those guns and my favorite was the Fal. Of all the SMG's I've ever shot (Thompson, Sten, MP-5, Uzi, etc.) my favorite was the Sterling. Because of the design, the bolt was in line with the stock which let the recoil push the gun directly back and less up. It was light and accurate.
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Originally posted by Dune
Aug was...well, different :)
It was accurate, but the feeling was off to me. If I'd spent enough time with it, I probably could have become comfortable with the bullpup design. My dad's was one of the first imported to the US so it was semi-auto only. I didn't like the magazine placement so far back on the stock. I didn't feel it was as easy to reload as one further forward. The recoil was very managable in semi and the site was easy to use for target shooting, but like everything else, it would take something to get used to in combat situations.
Several of my dad's friends were Federal LEO's and he and them were graduates of Jeff Cooper's Gunsite academy. We would all go out in the desert and run combat drills, combat pistol/rifle/smg shooting drills and competitions. Great fun.
So I've run combat-type simulations with all of those guns and my favorite was the Fal. Of all the SMG's I've ever shot (Thompson, Sten, MP-5, Uzi, etc.) my favorite was the Sterling. Because of the design, the bolt was in line with the stock which let the recoil push the gun directly back and less up. It was light and accurate.
gunsite is a great outfit. i gotta say never shot the aug but ever since i saw that don johnson mickey rourke movie where the badguys all used aug and moved line abreast in black kevlar trenchcoats ive thought it would be cool to have one. :)
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Wouldn't proper neofascist policy limit this thread to combat infantrymen only?
what are you talking about guy? and are you going to raiders at san diego on halloween?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Wouldn't proper neofascist policy limit this thread to combat infantrymen only?
Proper neofacist policy would have you walking ahead of convoys in Iraq stomping your feet.
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<-------- Pong0wn3d
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Originally posted by anonymous
what are you talking about guy? and are you going to raiders at san diego on halloween?
I'm just smashing Pongo's grapes.
As a matter of fact I might be at the game. My friend's company is probably going to have a luxury box for that game. I will be there in my Matuzak jersey. :)
I'm down there 3-4 times a year BTW. I'm a UCSD alumnus and I keep in touch with friends in PB and La Jolla.
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Real answer:
In video games it's clearly the Steyr Aug. It's short enough to use indoors and it's got integral optics.
In military history, probably the AK-47/74 just because nothing puts out more lead for less money. And a trained chimp could maintain it.
In real life I'll go with the Remington 870 because it's the only weapon I have a significant amount of experience with. I defended Aztlan from numerous attacks by Islamic clays and ground squirrels.
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For rifles... M1 Garand (served in WWI, WW2, Korea)
Assault rifles... no doubt AK-47/M ( low price and very effective in guerilla attacks when coupled with RPGs!)
:)
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HK 91.
W3 M|_|57 |\|3\/4R F0RG3T Sn1p3rZ!!!1
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Thanks Dune :)
Daniel
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Most influential : ak-47 with the mosin-nagant as close runner up.
overall best: FN-FAL especially now that you can get them made in just about any caliber.
Mausers based on the 98 action get honorable mention as well as the SKS.
IMO all guns that need to be in any enthusiests collection.
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HK G36
"Good By Any Measure
In conclusion, then, let us return to our original criteria for an infantry rifle and compare the G36 to them. The G36 certainly meets our weight criterion. The assault-rifle version weighs only 3.3kg and the carbine 3kg. As to reliability, we experienced absolutely no failures of any sort in our test firing of the G36, although our test was admittedly insufficient for more than a general impression of the rifle's reliability. It should be noted, however, that during testing of the G36 at the U.S. Army's desert test facility at Yuma, Ariz., there was not a single stoppage in more than 24,000 rounds fired under incredibly harsh conditions. The test protocol consisted of firing 240 rounds on uninterrupted (except to change magazines) full automatic, submerging the G36 into a barrel of water until it quit boiling, removing the rifle, shaking it free of water, then repeating the process. The test rifle was cleaned at the end of each day after firing 6,000 to 8,000 rounds. This performance confirms the impression gained during our limited firing of the G36 with several types of ammunition.
Is the G36 maintainable? According to the manufacturer, cleaning is really necessary only about every 5,000 rounds. While the author cannot in good conscience recommend this procedure, it does show confidence by H&K. Also, the polymer components can be cleaned using either solvent, water-based solvent, plain water, or compressed air. As noted previously, after firing hundreds of rounds, there was no noticeable fouling or residue buildup in the G36 receiver that the author examined. We have already noted the ease of both user and organizational maintenance. And, finally, the G36's simplicity is remarkable. The operating system is, to this writer at least, "as good as it gets." The control placement made the learning curve on the G36 extremely short. The sights are excellent. Disassembly and assembly of the G36 are simple and almost intuitive with minimal instruction. In sum, then, we feel that the G36 fits our definition of the ideal infantry rifle in virtually every respect. We have only two minor reservations. We prefer a lighter trigger, but this is a subjective judgment that can, as stated previously, be overcome with training and use. The only real, albeit minor, complaint about the G36 is the forearm that overheats too quickly, but H&K is in the process of designing a forearm heat shield. Our final assessment, then, is that Heckler & Koch have definitely hit the mark with their new G36.
It is truly a soldier's rifle.
A former Marine intelligence officer, Charlie Cutshaw is now an editor for Jane's "
http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/mil/g36/g36.htm
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what are the criteria? Ak series would be a high ranker for current rifles but I would rather have the m16 series for accuracy and weight and versatility. Have allways lik3ed the aug series for portability.
For WWII.. I own a maus3er and a Garrand and a smle... the Garrand is head and shoulders better...
the FAL would be a better major caliber but is still not as accurate as an old long action Garrand but... the FAL is easier to load as is the m14.
point is... grab any modern assault rifle or battle rifle and you will be fine. No real lemons these days.
lazs