Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FiLtH on August 11, 2004, 02:15:20 AM
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Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing. Guys like Drano and TC.
The way it is now...
30% of the time I kill him, 30% we kill eachother and 30% of the time he kills me. Seems like a poor way to fly. If the guy would feint like he's coming back down, and go back up, the guy below would be tail up when he truly attacked, and no risk of getting hit.
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They misjudged thier opponents E when they went up in the first place, not alot of options at the top unless they still have enough juice to wiggle away from inevitable Vertical HO ?
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Because it takes a bit more patience and timing doesn't it , seems most folks just want charge in there guns blazing as quick as possible.
The art of E-Fighting seems almost lost to boring Bnzzzz and constant HO's doesnt it....shame.
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What Redd said.......
I am S L O W L Y improving my ACM's.......I was (and remain) a turn fighter at heart I suppose, (Spit V) but I am improving my BnZ skills (P-51D, FW-190)
What is the first most noticeable difference? T I M E
Frankly, it takes more time to set up, execute, extend, re-enter, than to blaze into a turn fight.
As my patience grows, my K/D is improving.
Anyway, I think it is the lack of patience that drives the HO you describe.....as well as misjudging the "rope"...... When I drag someone up, I find a climb that allows me unlimited climb and watch for the other guy to start to fall off...that's when I turn down....if you do it sooner, you end up in the HO.
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Talon is right. Some don't have the patience and others don't have the skills to do anything else.
Most people HO because they know they are going to lose any other way. Until they get some skills they will live by the HO.
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I find it most ammusing when your heading at a con for a merge and he starts firing wildly from 800 well until after he's passed you. Fun to dodge, look back and still hear/see his guns still blazing.
"Damn missed! Almost had him, I'll try again."
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Until they get some skills they will live by the HO.
Thats a Catch 22 right there.
If they continue to HO, then won't aquire skills.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing. Guys like Drano and TC.
The way it is now...
30% of the time I kill him, 30% we kill eachother and 30% of the time he kills me. Seems like a poor way to fly. If the guy would feint like he's coming back down, and go back up, the guy below would be tail up when he truly attacked, and no risk of getting hit.
30% of the time I kill him ... means 1/3rd of the time you are doing it right.
30% we kill each other - 30% of the time he kills me ... means 2/3rds of the time you aren't doing it right.
For the 2/3rds ... try this ... If in the zoom, you look back and the guys is still with you (closing or maintaining) try to switch over to a spiral climb. This will cause the guy to have to turn to adjust for a guns solution and many times will cause them to stall quicker if they make the adjustment too rapidly. Most times it will get you the kill, but at the least it will prevent you from getting killed.
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I know most don't think much of E fighting, to some the only 'real' fighting is stall-fighting. But take it from somene who has E Fighting down to a science from a decade of practicing it in various planes. It takes ALOT of patience and discipline to do well. Alot of people are flying E fighters simply because they are fast and the MA tends to favor fast planes in terms of survivability. These people have little or no actual E fighting experience, but come from the turnfighting/stallfighting background, 99% start off learning. They tend to misperceive E fighting as simply Boom n' Zoom, it actually includes simple Boom n' Zoom but also so much more.
A stallfight or turnfight is known universally as an angles fight. The goal is to achieve an angle as quickly as possible on your enemy for a gunnery solution. The loss of E consideration, or conversely, the bleeding of the enemie's E is of secondary importance. So, what you have is people flying E fighters, who engage, usually with altitude, who are approaching the fight from an angles perspective. The end result being them pulling for an angle (whether vertically through an oblique manuever or laterally) for a shot with little regard for relative E states.
It takes ALOT of practice, timing, patience, discipline, tactical awareness, situational awareness and especially gunnery to be a successfull E fighter tactician. It will take these people perhaps years to get very good at judging relative E states and tactics to maximize their own E efficiency while forcing his adversary into manuevers which waste his E. Most people in the MA perform every manuever as if it were a 'balls to the wall' pull lead for the shot situation. Very few people actually 'work' the kill with manuevers that are designed solely to extenuate your E advantage and/or to negate/reverse the enemy's E state advantage with no 'short-term' regard for gaining an angle (any angle, HO or otherwise) for a shooting opportunity.
The result of this ecclectic blend of E fighter planes and angles fighter mentality is alot of HO's.
Zazen
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Many reasons.
Sometimes I will go up not knowing you were following. Once at the top, not mach I can do. the nose will point down by itself.
Sometimes I blow by a SpitV in a 38 and slowly pull up, eventualy going vertical, only to see the spit fire up his rocket boosters and close in on me. Again, not many choices there either.
Sometimes, I will miss judge your e.
I am sure there are many other reasons. Istead of complaining about the guy that commited himself to going vertical and questions his skills, why dont you take a look at what you are doing. The guy that stalled at the top does not have many choices. He will come down nose first. What are you doing going up to him Head On? Is there something else you could do maybe? The way you describe it,
"Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. . . . . .The way it is now...
30% of the time I kill him, 30% we kill eachother and 30% of the time he kills me. Seems like a poor way to fly"
sounds like you are initiating the HO after someone made a mistake and missjudged your e. Yes it is a poor way to fly, for both of us.
<>
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I concur with Redd, Talon, Slap, and Zazen...........most go for the quick kill all be it HO or anything close........noone ( most anyway) wants to learn how to work over their opponent, don't have the patience, and do not even care about learning how too.......
you hear the whine from both sides , HO is a valid tactic or HO is childs play and BS"
I would rather work by maneuvering and earn the victory outright then take a cheapshot with a HO, unless I find myself quickly outnumbered or the opponent starts firing HO and I misjudged and don't think I can clear his guns in time........then I will return a few burst,
Also, I think with the new hit resolution in AH2, you have more pixils to hit in the 12 oclock position than you do in the 6 oclock position, meaning HO's are easier to land now more than ever.
and with the collision model soon to be fixed in next patch ( find thread in bug forum) maybe the increased HOing may subside some.
It is the most rewarding when you encounter an opponent that flys for an angles advantage and steers away from HO's........wether they E fight, turn fight, or BnZ.........
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
It is the most rewarding when you encounter an opponent that flys for an angles advantage and steers away from HO's........wether they E fight, turn fight, or BnZ.........
Unfortunately, this is becoming an ever-increasing rarity. Conditioned by the aformentioned people who will HO at each and every opportunity, most who realize they are against one of these types will sqeeze off a burst themselves. It's strictly a defensive reaction, but nothing dissuades a Ho'er like gettting beat at his own game on the first pass through superior gunnery, having his radiator popped or getting a pilot wound.
Zazen
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I love E fighting, I love turn and burn too, depends on my mood which I will do. My biggest thrill in AH right now is pulling off a good Rope-a-dope. My best one (which I didnt film of course) I was in a 190A-5 with 3 Spit V's chasing me. I roped them, came over the top, and got all three of them on the way down because they lined up really nice and straight for me. :)
The second best thrill for me in AH is being the 1 in a 2-3 v1 and bleeding the others down and killing them one at a time. More than 3 v 1 and I'm in trouble, but I still stay and fight.
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Gimme a break Zazen,
This is not some art that take 10 years to become skilled at. It takes practice, yes but most of all it takes fighting and dieing, trying differnt tactics and perfecting the ones that work.
People will attain the skills if they drop their vulch, ho crutches and start to fight and learn. Anyone can do it and it does not take that long to become compettive.
BTW If you pat yourself on the back any harder your going to break your arm:D. lolh
Grits I'm with ya 100%
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Good replies!
Zazen I think you nailed it when you talk of both worlds converging...the tnb and the energy guy. It looks to me if you pit a tnb guy who guards his E well, but is at a disadvantage in alt, against a guy who energy fights, and maybe not as good as he could, the inevitable outcome is one guy stalling out above and nosing down on the lower guy, who has kept just enough reserve E to get his nose up on the guy above him. And the head on is born. Not deliberate..more out of neccessity from both players.
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Originally posted by mars01
Gimme a break Zazen,
This is not some art that take 10 years to become skilled at. It takes practice, yes but most of all it takes fighting and dieing, trying differnt tactics and perfecting the ones that work.
People will attain the skills if they drop their vulch, ho crutches and start to fight and learn. Anyone can do it and it does not take that long to become compettive.
BTW If you pat yourself on the back any harder your going to break your arm:D. lolh
Grits I'm with ya 100%
I never said it takes ten years to be good at it. I said I, personally, have spent ten years refining my E fighting tactics. I said it could possibly take several years to become a really good judge of relative E states and E fighting manuevers and tactics. Just as it would take a similiar amount of time to refine and articulate stall-fighting tactics and methods. Mars, you like to bash everything I say for no other reason than to be argumentative, it's getting old, grow-up or shut-up. ;)
My post took a bout 20 minutes to write, it's informative, usefull and true. You write a one liner about Ho'ers having no skill, then start bashing my post and me personally.
Zazen
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Not true Zazen, it's just seems that everything you say is either puffing about how great or skilled you are or bashing the Bish.
My impression of your post was, "take it from me the great Zazen..." and "it takes years to get good so Ho"
Sorry if we are at odds a lot of the time. I don't have anything against you personally it's the things you say. :aok
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Originally posted by mars01
Not true Zazen, it's just seems that everything you say is either puffing about how great or skilled you are or bashing the Bish.
My impression of your post was, "take it from me the great Zazen..." and "it takes years to get good so Ho"
Sorry if we are at odds a lot of the time. I don't have anything against you personally it's the things you say. :aok
Like it or not mars01, I am very good at what I do. I am about as close to an authority on E fighting tactics as there is in the community after over a decade of working at it with proven success. I never said it takes years to perfect, so just Ho. If anything my post encourages people who do just HO to invest in their future and 'work' those E states and NOT go for the HO. You put this anti-Zazen slant on everything, it's not me against you. It's just facts, data, personal experience, and some basic information on the subtle nuances of air to air combat.
I realize our approach to the game is completely dichotomous, but that does not mean everything I say is incorrect, you need to be a little more open-minded. I find your approach to the game to be a form of airiel masturbation personally, but I do not berate you when you post about it, and how much you enjoy it, that's your personal choice, so long as you're having fun it's all good.
Zazen
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Actuall now after reading this post again, if I understand you correctly you are wondering why people ho after the merge or on the down side of a rope?
My bad, I thought this was a why do guys ho in general, first merge etc.
Zazen I apologize and understand in context where you are comming from now.
Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing. Guys like Drano and TC.
The whole idea of the rope is to hope the guy you are roping stalls before you, correct?
If they don't and you stall just before them, then you as the roper are in big trouble and it becomes a kill or be killed attempt. It is a desperation move created by a bad rope, and take it from me:D, I am horrible at roping.
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Like it or not mars01, I am very good at what I do. I am about as close to an authority on E fighting tactics as there is in the community after over a decade of working at it with proven success.
See what I mean. Dude you are so full of yourself it makes me want to puke. You are the authority WTG. You seem to try and prove it in every post, but yet when the gauntlet is thrown down you back down, but that is a different post.
I never said it takes years to perfect, so just Ho. If anything my post encourages people who do just HO to invest in their future and 'work' those E states and NOT go for the HO.
We'll from someone who read your post, what I surmised was, it take a while to be the Great Zazen so people are going to ho:lol You spent the whole post just going on about how masterful you are blahhhh gag me.
You put this anti-Zazen slant on everything, it's not me against you. It's just facts, data, personal experience, and some basic information on the subtle nuances of air to air combat.
No it is anti what you say, there is no anti Zazen. It is anti self proclaimed masters. Let your peers and your actions boost you.
I realize our approach to the game is completely dischotomous, but that does not mean everything I say is incorrect, you need to be a little more open-minded.
Is this just poor spelling or are you making up words? Dichotomous.
:D Just breaking your balls lol.
I find your approach to the game to be a form of airiel masturbation personally, but I do not berate you when you post about it, and how much you enjoy it, that's your personal choice, so long as you're having fun it's all good.
This is just inflamitory - no need for a reply.
Ok enough of thread stealing here. Sorry Filth.
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quote:Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing. Guys like Drano and TC.
The whole idea of the rope is to hope the guy you are roping stalls before you, correct?
If they don't and you stall just before them, then you as the roper are in big trouble and it becomes a kill or be killed attempt. It is a desperation move created by a bad rope,
Is why I will use a spiral climb ( E Bleeding Chandelle ) more so than the straight vertical climb, so I can keep out of his guns solution while bleeding his E, flying " Out of Plane"
and I am no master of the art, I will be learning til the day there is no online flight sims left :D
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Why is it so many people in here just go up and come back down headon when the other plane still has the e to nose on him and return fire? You know..the way 70% of the folks in here E fight. Ive seen alot of guys e fight in the past and they knew how to milk a guy before committing. Guys like Drano and TC.
1. not so easy to judge relative e-states sometimes and the guy on top mis-judges and ends up nose-nose with the lower guy who may be very close, or not, to the edge of stalling out.
2. time... the typical encounter in MA doesn't provide the time to set up a proper rope before some more baddies show up. it's not impossible, no, but you have to consciously consider the best "location" to do it - i.e., not directly on the hamstard trail.
as for e-fighting... same as above. while i'm a tnb and heart, i also e-fight given the proper situation, but even then it's a matter of time before a bunch of gangbunnies show up, either yours or theirs.
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Mars01, not going to quote that mess (I hate when you chop stuff up, it's SO annoying to read!).
But, I don't require anything external to tell me I am good at what I do, I know I am. It is this very self-confidence that is a defining trait amongst real fighter pilots, past and present. I feel no need to prove anything to anyone, I have gone way past that point. I fly for myself, I put alot of thought and effort into my flying, I read books on combat flying and air combat tactics, I buy every WW2 air combat video I can. This is my hobby, and has been for over ten years. I am good at what I do, and I should be with all the experience and practice I have had.
It's not any kind of holier than thou speech, it's just the truth. I know many others in the game that have been playing as long as I have, I know they are good, some are really great at stallfighting, some are great E fighters, some are both. I don't need to duel them to know this. I know it from watching them from the perspective of friend and foe over the years. I would never deny they have cultivated great talent and skill over the years, it's just a fact. It's not personal, just because someone else is good doesn't mean you are also not good in your own way and you shouldn't need other people telling you that to know it's true.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
It's not personal, just because someone else is good doesn't mean you are also not good in your own way.
Zazen
bah! you allllllllllll suxxorz!!!
:p
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Originally posted by Shane
bah! you allllllllllll suxxorz!!!
:p
Hehe Shane, we know we suck, we can't help it, it's just the way God made us :eek:
Zazen
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And now back to our actual subject....
I'm new to AH but flew AW for many years. I'm still not used to this head on thing. I'm sure it's been discussed to death already, but why doesn't Hitech tone down the hit percentage on headons.
I got killed 3 times before I realized that the person who got the kill was the guy on my 12 and not some stealth fighter on my six I had totally missed. I still have the programming from AW that HO shots are low percentage and a waste of ammo. I just don't take them myself and now I know to avoid being hit by them. (I did however kill some dweeb that was insisting on fighting that way the other night. On his 3rd HO pass I got fed up and blasted his backside out of the sky... hehe)
It seems like the only solution is to water down the hit percentage on headons so that they are an act of desperation not a viable air combat tactic.
-Buzzz
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Basically it depends on what kind of situation i am in.
Say for instance i'm in a good fight with someone or 2 people as is more often, i will not HO at all unless i am HO'd by one of the others first.
In an instance where it is 3 or more vs 1 hellcat (me :)) on the deck clawing for each others tails, sure enough i might throw in a few quick HO shots.
The thing i don't understand is that if there is a 3 or more to 1...why would HO that 1 guy? Kinda silly because you could also die and anyways he will more than likely be killed anyways.
(happened last night, 2 190s 1 spit and Il-2 on me Kitty's tail. was HO'd 3-4 times)
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Use a 30mm or 37mm on em. It don't stop in the radiator. :D
Originally posted by Zazen13
Unfortunately, this is becoming an ever-increasing rarity. Conditioned by the aformentioned people who will HO at each and every opportunity, most who realize they are against one of these types will sqeeze off a burst themselves. It's strictly a defensive reaction, but nothing dissuades a Ho'er like gettting beat at his own game on the first pass through superior gunnery, having his radiator popped or getting a pilot wound.
Zazen
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Ok last time I'm addressing this sorry again filth.
Mars01, not going to quote that mess (I hate when you chop stuff up, it's SO annoying to read!).
But, I don't require anything external to tell me I am good at what I do, I know I am. It is this very self-confidence that is a defining trait amongst real fighter pilots, past and present. I feel no need to prove anything to anyone, I have gone way past that point. I fly for myself, I put alot of thought and effort into my flying, I read books on combat flying and air combat tactics, I buy every WW2 air combat video I can. This is my hobby, and has been for over ten years. I am good at what I do, and I should be with all the experience and practice I have had.
Blah Blah me, my mine lol. Zazen it has nothing to do with your confidence and everything to do with you constantly going on about how great you are. All long drawn out boring fluyff "look at me I'm great, look over here at all my practice and books and expeiriance" lol. Stop stroking yourself and trying to prove your greatness in your posts and we will be fine. Let your actions and the community do the talking on your behalf.
It's not any kind of holier than thou speech, it's just the truth. I know many others in the game that have been playing as long as I have, I know they are good, some are really great at stallfighting, some are great E fighters, some are both. I don't need to duel them to know this. I know it from watching them from the perspective of friend and foe over the years. I would never deny they have cultivated great talent and skill over the years, it's just a fact.
It's just annoying that's all, you can discuss stuff without stroking yourself in front of everyone.
It's not personal, just because someone else is good doesn't mean you are also not good in your own way and you shouldn't need other people telling you that to know it's true.
Not sure if you mean "you" as in me, but I'll address just in case. I'm not worried about what people think about me or my skill, I know where I am good and I know where I am not.
It just gets under my skin when guys are always stroking themselves in public going on about how great they are. lol.
It is this very self-confidence that is a defining trait amongst real fighter pilots, past and present.
Yeah it is but that also goes hand in hand with a jovial almost self deprecating tounge in cheek response to their skill. Something your years etc obviously have not mastered.
Many of the great fighter pilots didn't brag at how great they were, even tho the knew they were great. Most played their ability down and were very humble.
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The problem with easy HO hits is that it puts the pilot who wants to fight properly (be it angles or energy) at a disadvantage. He has to waste effort and energy avoiding an artificially higher percentage chance of getting gut-shot on a 700 mph crossing merge.
This has always been the case in these genre of games for 15 years now.
HO is "valid" in that it was done. Most of the cases I read about were asymetrical ... a heavy US fighter vs. a light Japanese one, or a Luftwaffe fighter against a heavy bomber.
I shouldn't have to barrel and roll and jink on the cross. The guy who wants the head-on shot should have to friggin' work for it. The fact that I'm going 350mph in the opposite direction and at any angle-off to him at all should be plenty of protection.
Right now it isn't this way, so you get La's, 190's, Hurri's, and Ki's who do nothing but manouever for the only shot they'll easily get - the HO. And with some of the warps and stuff, it's easier to get hits head-on than dead-6 many a night. But overall easy HO hits have proven time and time again to have a corrosive effect on gameplay.
-DoK
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Originally posted by mars01
Yeah it is but that also goes hand in hand with a jovial almost self deprecating tounge in cheek response to their skill. Something your years etc obviously have not mastered.
You are totally correct, I have yet to master the art of false modesty. Perhaps you could give me lessons?
The only reason any real fighter pilot who has seen actual combat is in any way humble, is because they have stared 'real' death in the face, that alone creates humility. Have you ever read commentary from German fighter pilots on Eastern front comment on their soviet counterparts? They are in no way humble, nor do they give respect or some sort of chivalrous applause to their foes, they speak of them as unwashed masses of incompetants. Sort of like how I as a Rook refer to most Bishops. ;)
Zazen
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The problem with easy HO hits is that it puts the pilot who wants to fight properly (be it angles or energy) at a disadvantage. He has to waste effort and energy avoiding an artificially higher percentage chance of getting gut-shot on a 700 mph crossing merge.
This has always been the case in these genre of games for 15 years now.
HO is "valid" in that it was done. Most of the cases I read about were asymetrical ... a heavy US fighter vs. a light Japanese one, or a Luftwaffe fighter against a heavy bomber.
I shouldn't have to barrel and roll and jink on the cross. The guy who wants the head-on shot should have to friggin' work for it. The fact that I'm going 350mph in the opposite direction and at any angle-off to him at all should be plenty of protection.
Right now it isn't this way, so you get La's, 190's, Hurri's, and Ki's who do nothing but manouever for the only shot they'll easily get - the HO. And with some of the warps and stuff, it's easier to get hits head-on than dead-6 many a night. But overall easy HO hits have proven time and time again to have a corrosive effect on gameplay.
-DoK
says it all, well spoken DoK!
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Originally posted by Buzzz
And now back to our actual subject....
I'm new to AH but flew AW for many years. I'm still not used to this head on thing. I'm sure it's been discussed to death already, but why doesn't Hitech tone down the hit percentage on headons.
I got killed 3 times before I realized that the person who got the kill was the guy on my 12 and not some stealth fighter on my six I had totally missed. I still have the programming from AW that HO shots are low percentage and a waste of ammo. I just don't take them myself and now I know to avoid being hit by them. (I did however kill some dweeb that was insisting on fighting that way the other night. On his 3rd HO pass I got fed up and blasted his backside out of the sky... hehe)
It seems like the only solution is to water down the hit percentage on headons so that they are an act of desperation not a viable air combat tactic.
-Buzzz
I doubt that HT will ever water down the hit percentages on any part of the plane. I despise HOs, but still would not like it if HT were to implement this.
One must learn to avoid the avoidable HOs and then captitalize on it.
Like Wadke pointed out, there are certain situations that one is forced to HO for pure survival in a multi-plane engagement. I will HO under these conditions, but never in a 1 v 1 like Shane does ... :D
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Originally posted by Zazen13
Hehe Shane, we know we suck, we can't help it, it's just the way God made us :eek:
Zazen
Yeah ... ME TOO !!!
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The problem with easy HO hits is that it puts the pilot who wants to fight properly (be it angles or energy) at a disadvantage. He has to waste effort and energy avoiding an artificially higher percentage chance of getting gut-shot on a 700 mph crossing merge.
This has always been the case in these genre of games for 15 years now.
HO is "valid" in that it was done. Most of the cases I read about were asymetrical ... a heavy US fighter vs. a light Japanese one, or a Luftwaffe fighter against a heavy bomber.
I shouldn't have to barrel and roll and jink on the cross. The guy who wants the head-on shot should have to friggin' work for it. The fact that I'm going 350mph in the opposite direction and at any angle-off to him at all should be plenty of protection.
Right now it isn't this way, so you get La's, 190's, Hurri's, and Ki's who do nothing but manouever for the only shot they'll easily get - the HO. And with some of the warps and stuff, it's easier to get hits head-on than dead-6 many a night. But overall easy HO hits have proven time and time again to have a corrosive effect on gameplay.
-DoK
All so very true Dok, but how is an HO shot artifically higher of a percentage shot on a 700 mph crossing merge ? Its the "artificial" than I don't understand.
What I was trying to get across before, is the typical HO freak that we have here in AH, can only do that. They never seem to think about what is "beyond", after the HO attempt. Its all or nothing in their book ... that is why I stated before that 8 out of 10 times, they are dispatched within 1 to 2 turns. This is not being at a disadvantage from my seat ... it means another easy pelt on the wall.
Also, HOs are prevelant due to the fact that one can re-plane immediately after a failed attempt. They are more than happy to get the 1 kill with a 50% chance of survival. They care less about landing kills.
Twas not the case in RL, so with that, HOs were not anywhere near the norm as we see in the MA.
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As a newer player to the MA I have to say that HO shots are quite a pain in the neck. Before I was asked to join a squad I was trying them often as I didnt know any better. After reading lots of posts about this matter, I realized that a HO shot is frowned apon and I wasnt very good at it anyway. After some study and talking to squadies, I now "try" to revearse on them by diving down and then rolling up and over. Works the majority of the time. I also find myself remembering those pilots that try this manuver frequently and storing that in memory. In my opinon, as a not so good pilot, it would seem that if I can reverse this manuver on most ppl then much more expierenced pilots should be able to own them very fast.
Maybe its an ego thing, but them coming at me for a HO I feel as though they are trying to make me fight them on their terms. I dont like that. I would much rather reverse and make them fight me on mine. Seems perfectily reasonable. hehe
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Originally posted by octospider0
As a newer player to the MA I have to say that HO shots are quite a pain in the neck. Before I was asked to join a squad I was trying them often as I didnt know any better. After reading lots of posts about this matter, I realized that a HO shot is frowned apon and I wasnt very good at it anyway. After some study and talking to squadies, I now "try" to revearse on them by diving down and then rolling up and over. Works the majority of the time. I also find myself remembering those pilots that try this manuver frequently and storing that in memory. In my opinon, as a not so good pilot, it would seem that if I can reverse this manuver on most ppl then much more expierenced pilots should be able to own them very fast.
Maybe its an ego thing, but them coming at me for a HO I feel as though they are trying to make me fight them on their terms. I dont like that. I would much rather reverse and make them fight me on mine. Seems perfectily reasonable. hehe
Before I was asked to join a squad I was trying them often as I didnt know any better.
There ya have it ... most don't know better.
This man has seen the light ... albeit, someone showed him the light, nevertheless he has embraced the light.
WTG Octo ... you are on your way to bigger and better A2A engagements.
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Well, in real life a 700 mph merge is a lot harder to aim for. You don't have a little tracking thingy showing you were to line up a half mile out, you only have this little speck of a relection that suddenly becomes an enemy coming right at you. This is a compromise needed for an online arena.
And I think that because of the "way things work" in AH2 it's an awful lot easier to dump a huge burst of ammo in front of someone coming at you than to get hits in a proper tracking shot. Not that the gunnery model is necessarily wrong, but with a head-on you don't have to worry about warp delays (or ballistics or lead) where you would in a tracking shot. And that's where it starts to get technically artificial.
And, of course, your reason is just as valid. If you can gut-shoot someone 10 times better than you and get the kill half the time, why not? If you miss you can replane and try again in 5 minutes.
But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?
It would still be prevalent. The, "Piss in your cornflakes", breed, the same that will resort to intentional rams would still do it.
Zazen
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?
they would still do it, unless you scored a HO kill like you do a chute kill :D
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
they would still do it, unless you scored a HO kill like you do a chute kill :D
I think those that HO habitually are not motivated by scoring. I think they are the types that up with one primary objective - End the mission of at least 1 enemy plane. They aren't concerned with any negative ramifications on their score, if they were they would not want to try for a Head-On as it is the most risky way of attacking an enemy aircraft. So, much so, that as stated by someone else in this thread, it effectively ends your mission 2/3rds of the time. This is alot better than those willing to accept a ram where the potential to end your mission is almost certain. Rams seem gimped right now, but remember how they were in AH1, often the Hoer and the rammer are the same animal. A rammer is just a Hoer with too much 'follow-thru' on his shot.
Zazen
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well, in real life a 700 mph merge is a lot harder to aim for. You don't have a little tracking thingy showing you were to line up a half mile out, you only have this little speck of a relection that suddenly becomes an enemy coming right at you. This is a compromise needed for an online arena.
And I think that because of the "way things work" in AH2 it's an awful lot easier to dump a huge burst of ammo in front of someone coming at you than to get hits in a proper tracking shot. Not that the gunnery model is necessarily wrong, but with a head-on you don't have to worry about warp delays (or ballistics or lead) where you would in a tracking shot. And that's where it starts to get technically artificial.
And, of course, your reason is just as valid. If you can gut-shoot someone 10 times better than you and get the kill half the time, why not? If you miss you can replane and try again in 5 minutes.
But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?
Understand your "artificial" notion now and have to agree, but its all we got.
I don't really suffer from warps, so that is something that I don't need to deal with.
I'll tell ya what ... I suck at the HO and I suck from the direct 6 position when the plane is not silhouetted against the sky ... I find it very hard to see the the outline of the plane. Once you turn, thats when I got ya. I am much better at tracking and deflection shots than I am with the straight shot.
As far as the "Pot Stir" ... it might have some effect, but the whine would be deafening ... :D
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Hmmm ... ramming ... yeah, I remember those days still.
Imagine if you could set things up so whoever didn't shoot survives a ramming. Heheh ... that'd be evil ... when you saw the HO'ers guns twinkling you just try to ram him and get the kill. If you're going to HO in that case you damn well better be good at it. Don't know if it's technically possible, but it'd sure be an interesting experiment in Pavlovian psychology.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
I think those that HO habitually are not motivated by scoring. I think they are the types that up with one primary objective - End the mission of at least 1 enemy plane. They aren't concerned with any negative ramifications on their score, if they were they would not want to try for a Head-On as it is the most risky way of attacking an enemy aircraft.
ummm Zaz, I think u misread my post/er reply I meant they wouldn't even get a kill message, as when you shoot a chute you get no kill message.. my bad if I mislead ya or anyone LOL, I meant it as if you shot a plane down with a HO, ( not talking deflection) say maybe with in 10 degrees of pure HO, then you receive no kill awarded...just trying to be humorous something I need to work on I guess..my humor that is :cool:
same with ramming if you both collie why award either one with a kill, reward both with a collision / death, not sure if that is doable though with net lag and such.........sometimes I think to much:)
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Good point. Maybe a solution would be to slow down the update rate on the range (not the intervals, but the frequency). That way the higher the closure rate, the less accurate the range estimate. Just a thought.
Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well, in real life a 700 mph merge is a lot harder to aim for. You don't have a little tracking thingy showing you were to line up a half mile out, you only have this little speck of a relection that suddenly becomes an enemy coming right at you. This is a compromise needed for an online arena.
And I think that because of the "way things work" in AH2 it's an awful lot easier to dump a huge burst of ammo in front of someone coming at you than to get hits in a proper tracking shot. Not that the gunnery model is necessarily wrong, but with a head-on you don't have to worry about warp delays (or ballistics or lead) where you would in a tracking shot. And that's where it starts to get technically artificial.
And, of course, your reason is just as valid. If you can gut-shoot someone 10 times better than you and get the kill half the time, why not? If you miss you can replane and try again in 5 minutes.
But, let me ask this hypothetical to really stir the pot: if head-on fighter kills were treated like manouever kills ... that is no perks ... would people do it as much?
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ya know? There seems to be a light going off above my head. :p
I rarely take an HO shot anymore, but I did just moments ago in the MA (i thought I was outnumbered...but wasn't) anyway, it was desperate and I missed, so no biggie, plus it may have caused my opponent think twice about getting in front of me, dunno.
Now in the end he got me from the front, but not HO. Anyway, I was just thinkin, I read this and went...hmmmm
What I was trying to get across before, is the typical HO freak that we have here in AH, can only do that. They never seem to think about what is "beyond", after the HO attempt. Its all or nothing in their book ... that is why I stated before that 8 out of 10 times, they are dispatched within 1 to 2 turns.
In that fight I was reacting to what my opponent was doing, in no way did I ever even really try to dictate the fight. 'course, eating pizza at the same time did cause some difficulty. Being in the frame of mind i was in, I'd have taken the HO again if it presented itself, just because I was indeed "desperate".
I know in my early days here, I was always desperate, and I HO'ed ALOT! Prolly PO'ed a few old timers off. I really only got fully away from looking for the HO when I began flying the Yak. I even had a move that I thought was cool when it worked....HO with a roll, a bit of rudder to keep on target and roll all the way around the enemies cone of fire. It actually worked except when I ran into guys who were better then me. I was pretty proud when I pulled that off.......tried it again a few months ago, it seems like an impossible HO dream.
anyway, I doubt there will ever be an end to HOing, its like one of those steps to consciousness that we all must go through (AW'ers excepted). Players will use it until they find it difficult to do. Making the effort to avoid the HO, while possibly annoying for some, is actually a bit of fun for me. Or, letting him come in for the HO, and then rolling off target. Most will miss when I do that, some do not, and sometimes I misjudge it really bad. ummm, I got away from my point.......I think that if you dont like the HO, then avoiding it and making them pay (as you ace types can do...not me) will cause some reflection on their part and maybe they will begin to avoid the HO too.
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Headons in fighter vs fighter were for the suicidal in the real world. They happened about as often as rammings did. It was all about self preservation. Sure, attacking a buff on it's 12 happened, but only because there were less guns forward. Air Combat was all about staying alive.
Headons have no place in a flight sim where there are no consequences for death. If Hitech does not have a way to reduce hit percentage then they need to come up with another way to impose a penalty for doing it. (The suggestion of a points penalty was a good one. Either give no points for a head on kill or better yet... take some points away. Make HO points score as negative! Yeah! That's the ticket! LOL!)
With headons the way they are now, it's a bit like playing doom with airplanes. Just point and shoot.
-Buzzz
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Hos have never bothered me. seems i can avoid them 99% of the time. i find it helps if you treat a HO like u treat someone with alot of closure on ur six. aim to one side of him. he will turn towards u. then roll opposite get him out of synch with u and he cant pull up to track u without rolling. basically a classic flat or rolling scissors but with very little elevator input, as to not blow E. timed well u can exit the scissors maneuver and still have time to make a quick lead turn, or go vertical, or disengage as the situation demands.
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I despise HOs unless under certain conditions.
1. When you are outnumbered and actually being engaged my multiple cons at once. This is acceptable to me. You are already at a disadvantage and anything goes. When the engagement becomes even then you should be trying to gain the advantage and not just relying on your fire power alone.
2. When in a furball and a con and yourself get overwhelmed and accidentally turn both in the same direction not knowing each other are there. It has been proven that when in combat most average pilots can only maintain track on no more than 4 cons at once. And as everyone knows there is alot more than just 4 cons in one general area during most of our furballs.
3. When engaging any heavy bombers.
Each individual country and it's better pilots should be passing on their knowledge to teach the newer folks that this isn't a tactic that should be used unless absolutley necessary. By not correcting these individuals and helping them to get better, we as a whole are not doing our part to make the community a better place to fly and fight. Folks who keep using this tactic will only get to a point where the only trick in their bag is to HO when they've lost the advantage. They won't know that there is many other ways to regain the advantage instead of HOing when they feel they are beat.
If we teach them that they can fly on the edge of the envelope and still survive 75% or more of their engagements then maybe we'll see less of the HO scenarios. You can't get any better if you don't learn to fly your plane to the extreme. Through experience you'll begin to learn when you need to be cautious about a particular plane and its current capabilities for any given situation. Take chances and try and turn fight and TnBer, you will learn over time what you and your planes limitations are. Same goes with TnBers, try and see how well your TnBer plane can BnZ. Try and see what you can and can't do in both BnZ and TnB. You'll find that some rides can do both very well so long as you know your limitations.
In closing it's not the plane that HOs it is the pilots themselves. Some who should know better have the choice to go cold on a merge and work to gain the advantage. As for the newer players well some don't know and frankly are fighting to get anything they can. But if we teach them then I think they will be less apt to go to the HO and more to the ACM side. If we teach them then instead of hoping for a chance to get a kill they will have a better chance at getting the kills even with some of the vets flying in the same area. It will also come as a benefit to the vets when someday down the road they get themselves jumped they'll atleast know that can count on even some of the newer folks to help them out.
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This thread started out addressing the way someone roping another doesnt do it quite as well as he should and the lower guy can nose him, allowing the headon to happen. I wasnt addressing headons in general. Those happen..everyday..with 90% of the people in here. Dont like em..rather not have it..but thats the game.
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im going for HO's now...avoiding them just gets me killed.......
oh and flying a 190a5 or a8 gives me a better chance anyway........
i used to hate it, but if you cant beat them, join them right? Oh im going to rooks too ;) :p
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Originally posted by FiLtH
This thread started out addressing the way someone roping another doesnt do it quite as well as he should and the lower guy can nose him, allowing the headon to happen. I wasnt addressing headons in general. Those happen..everyday..with 90% of the people in here. Dont like em..rather not have it..but thats the game.
my apologies if I side tracked your thread FiLtH, we must meet up sometime and duke it out in the CT or DA, miss them good fights............:)
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
ummm Zaz, I think u misread my post/er reply I meant they wouldn't even get a kill message, as when you shoot a chute you get no kill message.. my bad if I mislead ya or anyone LOL, I meant it as if you shot a plane down with a HO, ( not talking deflection) say maybe with in 10 degrees of pure HO, then you receive no kill awarded...just trying to be humorous something I need to work on I guess..my humor that is :cool:
same with ramming if you both collie why award either one with a kill, reward both with a collision / death, not sure if that is doable though with net lag and such.........sometimes I think to much:)
Yea, still my point though, they wouldn't care if they got a kill message or not, they would be content with the fact that they ended your mission.
Zazen
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I hate it when people ho on me. But if I see them start to fire first in a ho, then I will fire back. Most of the time i win cause the 38 has all the nasty guns on it.
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No one commented on my idea to make headons score as NEGATIVE points.
That way it's still a viable option if your desperate and the situation turns to just trying to stay alive. But you would still have to pay for the consequences of your actions.
This would also not penalize a player who opts for the occasional headon kill too harshly but still really stick it to a player who's only tactic is to fly straight at others with guns blazing.
(And sure some dweebs would do it anyway but at least that way the scoreboard would reflect their dweebery and not make them look like some kind of hotshot hero.)
-Buzzz
PS: Yes I feel completely qualifed to be posting here. You would be hard pressed to find someone with more experience or expertise at being shot down than I have.
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Originally posted by Buzzz
No one commented on my idea to make headons score as NEGATIVE points.
That way it's still a viable option if your desperate and the situation turns to just trying to stay alive. But you would still have to pay for the consequences of your actions.
This would also not penalize a player who opts for the occasional headon kill too harshly but still really stick it to a player who's only tactic is to fly straight at others with guns blazing.
(And sure some dweebs would do it anyway but at least that way the scoreboard would reflect their dweebery and not make them look like some kind of hotshot hero.)
-Buzzz
PS: Yes I feel completely qualifed to be posting here. You would be hard pressed to find someone with more experience or expertise at being shot down than I have.
I really don;t care about points or score. WHat I care about is that I spent 10 minutes flying to get to a fight and I just lost an elevator or worse, trying to avoid a HO pass. I really don't think scoring and perks are going to fix the so called "problem". Just do your best to avoid them and realize that it will not always be possible. Also, after the merge, a miscalculation from any of the two pilots could lock you up in a situation where you are facing the other guy at d400. Will you pull the triger or not ,and hope that he does not also. Do you keep turning knowing that other cons are around or that he has the better turning plane?
Lets accept that it happens and continue on