Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Gorf on January 18, 2000, 01:06:00 PM
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First of all AH is a blast and when I heard the B-26 was going to the next bomber I about fell of my chair. The B26 is one of those neglected aircraft that Simulator companies neglect. I have been flying it and love it.
Now on for the rest of the story, ONE fighter that has been pushed back and forgotton is the P61 Black Widow. The LARGEST Fighter used in WWII and a damm fast one(cruisiing speed around 295-300). NOW before you say anthing the first answer to pop out most peoples lips is...ITS A NIGHT FIGHTER.. no one does that for sims... WELL, that is a half truth. Yes it was night fighter and it was designed for it BUT!! It also did DAY MISSIONS providing various roles of Fighter support and u GUESED it .. GROUND POUNDING!!. This sucker could carry 4,000lbs of bombs and it did due ground support. I mean what could be better, A FIGHTER that carries 4,000lbs bombs, 4 20mm with 500 rounds a gun, 4 50s, and a WEP speed running levle at over 350mph. The Germans had a nasty one two, think it was called a Horton OWL, never seen this one done either. SO BRING on the P61 and lets go NUKE somebody.
Gorf
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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GORF, I LOVE YOU MAAAAAAAAAAAN!!!!!!!
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
-Rip1- VF-101 Grim Reapers (RET)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
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If they could find a way to do the p61, ju88, mossie, he219, beaufighter, bf110
thing I would love it...
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P-38 could carry 2x2k bombs.
Mino
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So the P38 could carry that much BUTTT. The performace of the P61 did not fall to the floor like the P38. Believe or not, testing shows(I need to find the article in Aviation History) the P61 had the tightest turning radius of any Army Aircorp fighter in WWII and it was twice the size.
Gorf
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
PS I like the P38 histroically and in sims, just get tired of people preaching that the P38 is the ultimate fighter. Give me a F7F Tigercat and I will outdive, out turn, out run and OUT carry anything the P38 could. No Offense.
PSS Did ya know there was a variant fo the P38 that had 12.. let me say 12 50 cals on it.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I absolutely love the idea of the P-61. This is a TRUE fighter bomber {B26 is fast bomber, but doesn't last long in turning combat) and I would love to see it. We can have a very nice plane that brand WB doesn't have, and bring a really cool plane into the sim.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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I wish a sim would model the P-61 so everybody could see what a hunk of crap it is, and the rest of us could get on with our lives.
--ra--
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Nah, it would only serve to open the debate on whether it was properly modeled. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As a fighter bomber it might be ok, but I wouldn't furball one.
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Gorf;
I can see this plane excites you so take no regard toward my earlier comment.
The P-61 most have been much less well know, than the P-38. In general not very well known or famous. For the most part the only thing I have seen written about them was that they often had the role of a radar equiped night fighter.
Trying to recall, I don't believe that I have ever even seen one even at an airshow. Although I did see a F7 once.
Please, do tell which 38 had 12 .50's? I would love to post a picture of it if I can find one.
P61
(http://aviation-history.com/garber/images/northrop_P61-3.jpg)
Sorry the best picture I could find for now..
One Related Site:http://www.dnaco.net/%7Eitac1/museum/aircraft/p61.html (http://www.dnaco.net/%7Eitac1/museum/aircraft/p61.html)
Scroll down some on this site: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/1956/INDEXFIGHTER.HTML (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/1956/INDEXFIGHTER.HTML)
F7
(http://www.fotoimages.com/images/aircraft/GR7711.jpg)
Way Cool!
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-18-2000).]
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It was called the "Chain Lightning". Designated P-58, it was powered by two 2,100 hp Allison turbo-charged engines. Max speed was 436mph, take-off weight 39,200lbs. Armament listed in my book was four 37mm fixed forward firing cannon and four 0.5-in guns in two turrets. That is quite a punch!
Nothing, but nothing would pound ground like this!
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First of all for response to RA
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) RA.. the P61 was one of the most advanced aircraft of its time(and the most expensive), the Horton Owl was the only other nightfighter that came somewhat close to its level of technology. As for being a peace of CRAP, well ..if it was, then how come it is one of the MOST valuable aircraft in the restoration industry. The USAF air museum received an offer 3 years ago for a private collector for 29 MILLION dollars to have. HE was turned down.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) NOW for response to Minotaur, VERY COOL PICS..VERY COOL and THANKS for the links. As for the P38 with 12 50s.. I will get back to you, I am serching through all my BOOKS. By the way, A very Very GOOD book on the P38 that I bought a couple weeks ago is as follows:
PRODUCTION LINE TO FRONTLINE: LOCKHEED P38 LIGHTNING ISBN #185532749 X BY MICHAEL O'LEARY HIGHLY recommend this one.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) And dolomite, THANKS for the INFO..VERY MUCH.
See you all in the AIR!!
Gorf (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Gorf,
Regardless of how high-tech the Black Widow was, it was not particularly successful, obsolete by the time it reached combat units.
If some guy offered $29 million, he needs counseling.
The P-61 never lived up to billing, it was slower than hoped for, and had the worst roll rate of any US fighter, even with the high-tech spoilers. It didn't contribute much to the war, it just looks cool.
In this sim, it could use its turn rate to dodge 1 pass from a single-engine fighter, then its E would be gone and it would be a floundering whale, waiting to get picked apart.
If you want a big ground pounding fighter the Mossie would fit the role, and they were built in much greater numbers than was the P-61.
--ra--
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As for being a peace of CRAP, well ..if it was, then how come it is one of the MOST valuable aircraft in the restoration industry. The USAF air museum received an offer 3 years ago for a private collector for 29 MILLION dollars to have. HE was turned down.
What a heck current restoration value has to do with it's performance in WW II? Nothing!
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jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) (Warbirds)
If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!
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Try this:
(http://www.nlcs.k12.in.us/deckardb/p58.jpg)
[This message has been edited by dolomite (edited 01-19-2000).]
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif) For RA,
Dude please go back and get your highschool education. In some ways MINOR..MINOR expectations it did not quite meet it.. almost but not quite made it. In others expectations it excelled beyound expectations. The P61 was a electronic marvel ..and a mess but overall it was great. Its role rate was not one of the highest but it was not even close to the bottom. The P61, could and DID out turn ANYTHING in the US inventory in WWII that saw combat. As for surviving ONE pass errr AGAIN please go due your research...(OH I am sorry I forgot.. you flunked WWII history in highschool) Depending on the Widow Variant.. you wouldn't come close to making the first pass as the 4 50s rosted your butt and IF you made the 1st pass, dont even think about getting in a turn and burn (unless you had a Zeke or a Spit) the P61 would burn you $&#* and frag it with 4 20s.
And bellybutton for Mossie,, well it is a good ground pounder and I love the plane, the point about the P61 was that it was a very effective Ground pounder, it was avery versitale plane.
AND built in MASS has no bearing on how good a plane is.
And RA .. a QUIZ question for you.. what plane had the fastest role rate of any US fighter used in WWII..... GIVE UP??? P51.. NOT.. P38.. NOT... F4U.. NOT.. and the correct answer IS>>>>>> P47!
OH and as for 29million for the Widow..well that just reflects the rarerty of the plane and how valuable it is to the Collectors.
For JOCHEN.. good statement but.. ya missed the hole point. When I ran the 61st Fighter Squadron in Warbirds... we shot down a lot your guys.
DOLOMITE.. COOL PIC THANKS!!
Gorf
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Ok, thats the deal.. allies can have their P-61 and LW gets their Ta-152 or He-162 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Dolomite, cool pic, WTF is it????
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
-Rip1- VF-101 Grim Reapers (RET)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
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I remember reading about a duel right after WW2 ended between a pony and a blackwidow in Japan. The pilots were both reasonably skilled...I know the pony driver was a Ace from the Euro theater. Anyway the widow waxed him. Apparently both squads wagered there entire booze allotment for the month...ouch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) My recollection is that the pony driver completely underestimated the E retention of the widow in the vertical.
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) HUMBLE...THank you!!
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Dolomite, cool pic, WTF is it????
That, my friend, is the P-58 Chain Lightning! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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<<And RA .. a QUIZ question for you.. what plane had the fastest role rate of any US fighter used in WWII..... GIVE UP??? P51.. NOT.. P38.. NOT...
F4U.. NOT.. and the correct answer IS>>>>>> P47!>>
Wrong, it was the P-63 Kingcobra, I doubt the P-47 was in the top 3. And the P-61 did have the lowest roll rate of any US fighter.
It sounds like you want an uber Boulton-Paul Defiant.
--ra--
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Dolomite;
Do you mind posting that pic on a favorite thread of mine? Under "Aircraft and Vehicles", the thread is labled "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel".
I found one link that I would like to post up their as well. However, it only describes the plane as experimental and gives no combat records.
Thanks in advance! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
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Guess what the tightest turning plane in the RAF inventory was? Spitfire? Hurricane? Nope, it was none other than the Fairey Swordfish.
This "Stringbag" 2-man biplane could sink battleships, so I'm sure it would have no trouble killing any fighters that dare deride it's puny guns and anaemic horsepower.
And bellybutton for Mossie,, well it is a good ground pounder and I love the plane, the point about the P61 was that it was a very effective Ground pounder, it was avery versitale plane.
Yeah that's why the P-61, and NOT the De Havilland Mosquito is widely refered to as the most useful aircraft to serve with the Allies during WW2.
The British asked the US for a nightfighter, and Northrop went and built the P-61. Then when the RAF tested one they found(shock! horror!) that the Mosquito was better, and didn't order any.
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Mino-
Done! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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RA..
ONCE again you have proven that you have flunked WWII History. I believe I said the P47 had the fastest role rate of the WWII US airplanes that saw action in WWII, THE P47M or N, cant rember but will look it up, had the FASTEST..(please go read) role rate of any US aircraft that "SAW ACTION in WWII" for the US.. THE KINGCOBRA NEVER..repeat NEVER saw action with the US in WWII. ONLY the Russians, and HOW you may I now this.. A: I read a lot of books and B: Wife is Russian and her Great Grandpa FLEW them for RUSSIA. Not sure it was during or at the end of WWII she could not remeber.
SO>> to end this contraversy >> you for some reason you classify the P61 a piece of JUNK I class it as a FLyin WONDER and a Plane that has been neglected and one that deservse recognition for its accomplishments. Everbody has there view on what plane is best and I got a feeling that if this thread keeps going certain words may fly out and HITECH err Pryo may send us a nasty gram.
SO, Lets let it go and hit off to the unfriendly skies and have FUN.
RA apologize for the rude comment in last posting and in this one. Very unfriendly of me. Just very protective of the P61 and P47, I know my stuff on them and hate it when someone calls these planes JUNK etc.. with out any proof to back them up.
Good luck and God speed to you and all other sim pilots in the AH arena.
Gorf (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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JUZZ:
That story has a few details left out, first off, the RAF flew an A version that had the turret on top, was a real dog. Secondly, the US had given the RAF a version with an existing radar already used on front line fighter-bombers, the US refused to turn over the latest version of Dar they had on the US version of the P61, the RAF was alittle ticked since it was the Brits that gave the US DAR capability in the first place years before, the US just refined the exiting technology, but didn;t want to turn over their "refined" nose-radar to the brits in the P61. It was more of a political decision rather than an aircraft performance decision.
My father-in-law was a mechanic on these Black Beauties, and is pretty imformed on their historical background.
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
-Rip1- VF-101 Grim Reapers (RET)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 01-19-2000).]
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More Info on the P61:
The only specially designed night fighter of WWII, a large but maneuvrable twin-engined, twin-boom aircraft. The allied
enjoyed almost total air superiority by the time the P-61 entered service, and the P-61 was mainly used as a night intruder and
attack aircraft. The nose housed a big and heavy centimetric radar set, made in the US; four machine guns were installed in a
remotely controlled turret on top of the fuselage (deleted on many P-61As) and four cannon were fitted in the fuselage belly. The
P-61 was surprisingly maneuverable for such a large aircraft, but too slow too make a really excellent fighter. There was also a
two-seat dayfighter development, the XP-61E, later converted into the XF-15 reconaissance aircraft. 706 built.
Type: P-61B-1
Function: nightfighter
Year: 1944 Crew: 3 Engines: 2 * 2250hp P&W R-2800-65
Wing Span: 20.11m Length: 15.11m Height: 4.47m Wing Area: 61.53m2
Empty Weight: 10637m Max.Weight: 16240m
Max. Speed: 589km/h Ceiling: Max. Range: 2175km
Armament: 4*g20mm (4*mg12.7mm) 4*725kg
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Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
-Rip1- VF-101 Grim Reapers (RET)
"There is no reason anyone would
want a computer in their home."
Ken Olson, president, chairman and
founder of Digital Equipment Corp.,1977
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(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Ripsnort,
VERY COOL info, and I am very jealus of your father-inlaw working on the BLack beauties.
Gorf
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Gorf,
This will be my last posting on this thread too.
1) you didn't specify 'used by the US', I presumed everybody here knew that the P-63 only saw action with the USSR. But it doesn't matter because no matter how you slice it the P-47 didn't have the fastest roll rate of any US fighter. The P-51B and P-40E both rolled faster, and at higher speeds the P-38L and F4U did.
The M model was just a D with a bigger engine, the N model had fuel tanks in the wings which I'm sure you realize would not improve roll rate.
And the P-61 was in a class by itself with the lowest roll rate.
If you want to see your plane in action and you have a decent modem, go here:
http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/ (http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/)
--ra--
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RA,
Thanks for the last post and Zeno's Web site is theeee BEST. SPeed at home does not a low me to have fun with it so I use the T1 at work.
And as a final post for me, on the role rate. The following mag/book manufactures have tidbits about this topic and throught their research they all have concluded on ROLE rates. The P47, later models, had THE fastest.
Osprey Publications, FLight Journal, Aviation History and Aeroplane all have done the review.
In FLight sims the P47 has never..never been modeled correctly as has the P38H. So that is why it seems that way.
Have a good day!
Gorf
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Originally posted by Gorf:
The performace of the P61 did not fall to the floor like the P38. ...the P61 had the tightest turning radius of any Army Aircorp fighter in WWII and it was twice the size.
Gorf
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
PSS Did ya know there was a variant fo the P38 that had 12.. let me say 12 50 cals on it.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Okay, in favor of the 61... It was the fastest ROLLING plane bar none, period, it's in black n white if ya wanna go see fer yerself! It retained good E and had I believe initially... 10 to 12 .50's (6 in the turret and 6 in the nose) Which was cut down to 4 in the turret and 4 in the nose with a 20 or 2 under neath the nose. End of war found it sporting the 4 .20's and 4 .50's... But man-o-man could she fly! You're right about it being the most nimble of all our twin engine fighter/intecepters and turning was enhanced by them full length slats. Quite nimbel indeed.
Tern sez: "Live to Fly, Fly to Fight, Fight to Live!"
PS In the 38 or 61, the enemy better pray you don't get guns on em!
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Originally posted by ra:
Gorf,
Regardless of how high-tech the Black Widow was, it was not particularly successful, obsolete by the time it reached combat units.
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If you want a big ground pounding fighter the Mossie would fit the role, and they were built in much greater numbers than was the P-61.
--ra--
RA, I would like to see where you got yer data from. The guys I know say far different. That had it been in action the last 2 years of the war instead of the last 8 months, it would have been a note as a premier fighter and ground pounder.
Me thinks RA has his head up his arse again. But then that is nly IMHO.
Tern
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Originally posted by ra:
<<And RA .. a QUIZ question for you.. what plane had the fastest role rate of any US fighter used in WWII.....
Wrong, it was the P-63 Kingcobra, I doubt the P-47 was in the top 3. And the P-61 did have the lowest roll rate of any US fighter.
It sounds like you want an uber Boulton-Paul Defiant.
--ra--
RA get yer head outta yer arse! The 47 and 61 had reallll close roll rates. The 47-D was one of the FASTEST rollers. The 61, could out roll the 47-D by a margin, but then that margin is all you need in a fight.
Humble, I remember that wager! Was funny as hell when I read it and still is today. Thanks for reminding me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Tern
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A few P61 photos.
(http://www.totavia.com/~ACybriw/aviapix/Fighters/P61/P61--.jpg)
(http://www.totavia.com/~ACybriw/aviapix/Fighters/P61/ap25-1.jpg)
(http://www.totavia.com/~ACybriw/aviapix/Fighters/P61/ap25.jpg)
(http://www.totavia.com/~ACybriw/aviapix/Fighters/P61/p61.jpg)
(http://www.totavia.com/~ACybriw/aviapix/Fighters/P61/p61_1.jpg)
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
Cherokee Indian
[This message has been edited by indian (edited 01-21-2000).]