Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: crims on August 13, 2004, 06:27:13 PM
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How Does this work >? Two planes collide only one has damage. Please don't tell me its my Connection. Because if thats how it works it should be called a Connection damage model.:confused:
Crims
479th Raiders
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My problem was always this. If the game thinks 1 person collided, it should cause damage to both. How can only one person collide? If there was a collision it has to, by it's very nature, effect both regardless of connections. Simply, if one side sees a collision they must both take damage. Any method that can attribute collision damage to only one party involved is deeply flawed.
Zazen
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The other guy dodged before the information regarding said dodge was received by your computer. Hence it is the responsibility of each individual pilit to ensure that he does not collide with the other plane.
The game does not exist as one unique entity. Thus there is no single instance of "game" which can possibly "know" when two planes collide. On one FE they collide, on the other they don't. Data is distributed and synchronization is not instantaneous. The right hand doesn't always know what the left is doing.
Or, as TW9 said, it's your connection.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
My problem was always this. If the game thinks 1 person collided, it should cause damage to both. How can only one person collide? If there was a collision it has to, by it's very nature, effect both regardless of connections. Simply, if one side sees a collision they must both take damage. Any method that can attribute collision damage to only one party involved is deeply flawed.
Zazen
if i can shoot a plane where i see it with a connection and damage it, then same 2 planes if collide should be damaged.
the plane is either where i see it for both situations or not.
not 1 is and 1 not.
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I'm trying to read it, Whels, but I think I'm 6 or 7 beers behind ya. I'll try again when I catch up.
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It was the same in ww2ol...one of the reasons I left that POS game.
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The reason it works like it does is because that is the only way that it can work in an aircombat simulation with the lag delay of the internet.
If you do it differently you end up with:
BOTH DIE) Players intentionally crashing into other players because they know the other player cannot dodge.
NO COLLISIONS) People flying right through the enemy aircraft firing from a range at which they cannot miss, e.g. inside the other aircraft.
Take your pick, but they both destroy the game as a simulation of air combat.
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Originally posted by Zazen13
My problem was always this. If the game thinks 1 person collided, it should cause damage to both. How can only one person collide? If there was a collision it has to, by it's very nature, effect both regardless of connections. Simply, if one side sees a collision they must both take damage. Any method that can attribute collision damage to only one party involved is deeply flawed.
Zazen
Why should I collide after avoiding another plane completelty on my FE
Channel 1/200 would be completely taken up with arguments and abuse about ramming. - and who's fault it was , can you imagine it - it's bad enough now. The DA would be as busy as a one-egged man in an ass-kicking contest.
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Originally posted by Karnak
The reason it works like it does is because that is the only way that it can work in an aircombat simulation with the lag delay of the internet.
If you do it differently you end up with:
BOTH DIE) Players intentionally crashing into other players because they know the other player cannot dodge.
NO COLLISIONS) People flying right through the enemy aircraft firing from a range at which they cannot miss, e.g. inside the other aircraft.
Take your pick, but they both destroy the game as a simulation of air combat.
Well IMHO I souldn't be punished for having a Better connection. And if the Pilots waits till he is close enough to hit me from inside my plane Im Dead anyway because we collide and I have the better conection:D
Crims
479th Raiders
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TW9 ..........What did you say:rofl
Crims 479th Raiders
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Originally posted by whels
if i can shoot a plane where i see it with a connection and damage it, then same 2 planes if collide should be damaged.
the plane is either where i see it for both situations or not.
not 1 is and 1 not.
Never looked at it like that before but makes sense on the surface of it.
Only one real workable solution to this so far has been turning it off.
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Originally posted by Redd
Why should I collide after avoiding another plane completelty on my FE
I agree, you should not. I haven't played the latest update yet, but if they changed it so you can take collision damage without actually overlapping polygons on *your* FE...then they need to fix it. That's the only fair way.
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Originally posted by phookat
I agree, you should not. I haven't played the latest update yet, but if they changed it so you can take collision damage without actually overlapping polygons on *your* FE...then they need to fix it. That's the only fair way.
No they haven't changed the strategy of how collisions are handled Phookat , I was replying to zazen .
I personally like the way they do collisions - just seems the bubble is too big at the moment after this adjustment.
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Originally posted by crims
Well IMHO I souldn't be punished for having a Better connection. And if the Pilots waits till he is close enough to hit me from inside my plane Im Dead anyway because we collide and I have the better conection:D
Crims
479th Raiders
You are not punished for a better connection.
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I think we can all agree that something is not right with this model.
If it can be adjusted, great! Lets get it done, if not, shut it down.
You made the gunnery force us to get in closer, fine, but now you get in close for a shot and get killed by debris.
I mean really, before we get features... Can we please have some big maps first.
Just a note, patch 7 was the best patch thus far. Can we go back?
ZZ3
479th Raiders
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Originally posted by Karnak
You are not punished for a better connection.
Well then can you explain why only 1 Plane takes dammage >?
If we are in the same place at the same time and only 1 gets damage. This is the Question that I have asked ?
Crims
479th Raiders
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Originally posted by crims
Well then can you explain why only 1 Plane takes dammage >?
If we are in the same place at the same time and only 1 gets damage. This is the Question that I have asked ?
Because no matter how good or bad your connection is, the internet inherently has lag and a server has x amount of delay between your signal and your opponent's and sometimes has to anticipate where either of you will be in relationship to the other for x number of milliseconds and corrects that constantly via HT's excellent smoothing code?
When you fire x% of bullets in a situation where you're on a wildly evasive opponent's six o'clock, part of your hit percentage loss is probably due to such lag, but not enough to make it impossible to kill the guy. (Question: What's the highest individual hit percentage currently in AHII?)
When you're closing (or even flying circles with) an opponent and he actually moved to avoid and you didn't (or visa versa) and that little teeny tiny inherent bit of lagtime told the server that your frontend saw a collision and his didn't (or visa versa) - why penalize the guy who actually successfully avoided the collision just because of the inherent internet lag?
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That really doesnt answer the question.
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With gunnery lag doesn't come into play.
You shot at something you saw at on your FE. You either hit it or not. If you did it sends a packet to the other guy saying you got hit here.
His FE says ok this many hits here tears off a wing & he dies.
With collisions lag is very much in play.
Get a squadmate or freind to follow you.
Somewhere between 1k & 500 feet back.
Now compare notes on the distance he sees vs the distance you see.
It can be as little as 10 - 50 feet. Which still makes a HUGE difference in a collision.
OR, as much as 4 to 500 feet.
So now you pass nose to nose, one guy sees that he misses by 300 yards. The other guy sees a collision.
Your going to kill the guy that saw that he missed it?
Or not kill the guy who didn't avoid it?
Either alternative is totally porked. IT CAN ONLY BE THE WAY IT IS!
The problem is there was a problem with collsions. Namely there were hardly any. So people forgot to DUCK!
Start flying to not hit the other guy and the collision problem is gone.
Anyone have a link handy for hoofs article on netlag? Should be required reading before your allowed to log on.
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So KNife fighting is out of the question now. And also good Loop fighting, And turn fighting. Because If I fly to Close to the Enemy I will hit him. And if There is a Post of Internet Lag that I should read before I log in.......Maybe Hitech should account for it also in the collision model. All of this Info Is Great But if the Program < or Internet lag > sees one plane hit and the other one not hit. That is My Question. How can one plane get damige and one not if they collide? Who did I collide with if there is only 1 plane damaged?
Crims
479th Raiders
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Originally posted by crims
So KNife fighting is out of the question now. And also good Loop fighting, And turn fighting.
No they're not. You just have to learn to accept that there WILL be times that either you or your opponent will come out of a collision unscathed. There will be times neither of you do.
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i dont understand one thing
HTC "cut" effective range of shooting and same time rise collision radius?
thats make not sence for me
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If there is a collision, it should always affect both or niether..no matter what.
If one guy avoids it..you both avoided it. Period.
HT has it backwards.
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Didn't the Russians use ramming as a combat technique?
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Originally posted by Pongo
If there is a collision, it should always affect both or niether..no matter what.
If one guy avoids it..you both avoided it. Period.
HT has it backwards.
Would mean: the AH server has to track the collision messages...
Don't think they could do it at 14.95$
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Originally posted by Pongo
If there is a collision, it should always affect both or niether..no matter what.
If one guy avoids it..you both avoided it. Period.
HT has it backwards.
This is a distributed environment. There is never one completely correct "master" or synchronized database. There is always error. If we implement your policy and err on the side of more collisions (only one collides --> both collide), then you encourage ramming as a method of killing. If you err the other way (only one avoids --> both avoid), then you encourage staying on target without consideration of collision.
IOW, your policy sets up a prisoner's dilemma.
The best solution in light of the distributed database is to have each FE responsible for collisions on his own plane. That way there's no prisoner's dilemma. Ramming can still happen, but you can't know for sure that your ram will kill the other guy, so ramming is discouraged. Disregarding collisions is also discouraged, for the same reason.
Now if they could just fix the fact that planes are "colliding" when they are 50 feet away...we'd be set. There is error here too, of course--the collision bubble can be a bit too big or a bit too small. I say it should err on the small side. If the bubble is too big, you can't really tell when you are about to collide to avoid it. And a slightly too small collision bubble will work to detect "real" collisions (how often does your wing hit by 5" but not 10").
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If it can not be done with any effectiveness, then turn it off.
As it is now, it's flawed, and very unfair.
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Originally posted by ZZ3
If it can not be done with any effectiveness, then turn it off.
As it is now, it's flawed, and very unfair.
Actually .... as it is right now is just fine. And it certainly isn't unfair. The server reacts to what you get on your FE. If you don't avoid ... you collide. If you avoid, you don't collide. Don't get much more fair than that. Work on collision avoidance. If the other guy is intact, he obviously did.
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ramzey: The radius shouldn't have increased but your planes are more sollid then in AH1, there were possible gapes in the detection in ah1. Ill do some more testing to make sure it is working as designed.
HiTech
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I haven't had 1 collision yet and I usually only fly the A6M2 and FM2 (turn fighters) killed about 5 or 6 guys so far when I can catch them and I've been at 200 or closer to kill them. :) had 1 close call as a P38's entire tail section flew by my right wing.
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Originally posted by hitech
ramzey: The radius shouldn't have increased but your planes are more sollid then in AH1, there were possible gapes in the detection in ah1. Ill do some more testing to make sure it is working as designed.
HiTech
I can't say if it's working as designed, but I do believe it isn't working as it you had hoped. Have a look atthis thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127142) for some screen shots indicating that collisions are occuring when aircraft simply get within proximity of each other... And then we are still left with the physical impossibility that only one aircraft is damaged in a collision, penalizing the player with the slower connection.
Since connection speed and quality is a common fault of the internet, why write the software to emphasize that fault? I think it may be better to turn off collisions altogether (we don't have friendly collisions anyway) and maybe as a side effect the HO whiners will finally learn how to avoid them.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Arlo
Actually .... as it is right now is just fine. And it certainly isn't unfair. The server reacts to what you get on your FE. If you don't avoid ... you collide. If you avoid, you don't collide. Don't get much more fair than that. Work on collision avoidance. If the other guy is intact, he obviously did.
There's only one problem with this outlook.... It's completely wrong. You must do more than avoid, you must miss by the proverbial mile.
Read the bug reports. Try this
one (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127142)
My regards,
Widewing
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Acctualy those screen shots do not show the full picture do to how play back is not exatly the same as it was in the arena.
HiTech
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So basically we have to disengage any fight that shows we are within the 400 range and to not press for a closer shot because we may be killed in the process? Since the addition of collisions I've started to disengage at 200 and yet somehow even though both our FEs don't show a collision we still get damaged.
This eliminates flat scissor fights, rolling scissor fights, and most likely furballs to some extent. Furballs will just end up being a destruction derby.
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Originally posted by Widewing
There's only one problem with this outlook.... It's completely wrong. You must do more than avoid, you must miss by the proverbial mile.
Read the bug reports. Try this
one (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127142)
1: Lack of collisions was addressed.
2: I knife fight all the time. Haven't experienced what some claim to be a "collision bubble" yet. :)*ShruG* :)
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Originally posted by Arlo
Actually .... as it is right now is just fine. And it certainly isn't unfair. The server reacts to what you get on your FE. If you don't avoid ... you collide. If you avoid, you don't collide. Don't get much more fair than that. Work on collision avoidance. If the other guy is intact, he obviously did.
Arlo so My FE can tell If I Avoid or not Avoid ?
Crims
479th Raiders
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From the Bug Report forum regarding this.
Originally posted by hitech
Found the bug.
HiTech
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Originally posted by crims
Arlo so My FE can tell If I Avoid or not Avoid ?
Crims
479th Raiders
Ummmm ..... yes. :D
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Forget all the technical stuff for a moment. I thought the bottom line was fun. (That SHOULD be the bottom line anyway.) That's the only reason to log into AH... to have fun.
So... I guess the question should be... does this new collision model make the game more enjoyable, interesting, and more fun for the players?
I'm just one person but it didn't add anything to the game for me except another needless lethal complication to worry about. No, not fun at least in my opinion.
Anyone have their enjoyment level rasied by the new collision model? If so... please post and tell us the reason... because I think I must be missing it completely.
-Buzzz
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What new collision model? It's the same collision model! It was just broken and fixed! :D
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Originally posted by ZZ3
I think we can all agree that something is not right with this model.
If it can be adjusted, great! Lets get it done, if not, shut it down.
You made the gunnery force us to get in closer, fine, but now you get in close for a shot and get killed by debris.
ZZ3
479th Raiders
Died more today due to collisions than bullets. I agree here.
It looks like, from a previous post, that HiTech found what the problem is. Very cool and I hope they get it corrected soon.
My gunnery is bad enough I get in close, and then explode due to a collision to which I really didn’t believe I ran into anything.
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Originally posted by Arlo
Ummmm ..... yes. :D
Arlo ...... If you say so :confused: Thanks for the feed back
Crims
479th Raiders
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The radius shouldn't have increased but your planes are more sollid then in AH1, there were possible gapes in the detection in ah1. Ill do some more testing to make sure it is working as designed
so they are tougher? i didnt read the whole post because they all seem the same.
~S~
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It was Sooo nice to see this issue under the Rug for a change.
HT Turn off Mid airs. Its all relitive that way and the questions about such confusion will stop again. :)