Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on March 30, 2000, 08:34:00 PM
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(note: this is not a complaint about "ICONs" used for identification)
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/dhblair/images/range.bmp)
My Suggestion:
No Range Icons whatsoever.
OR...
Range Icons only for 300 yards in as a compromise between the current range icons and none at all.
Anyone here ever stood close to the tracks of an oncoming train?
its closure rate is hard to see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) the same is true with aircraft but to a higher degree than the train.
(trust me I fly in heavily congested airspace every day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Is this request unreasonable?
We Must ask ourselves the side effects of NOT having RANGE ICONS.
1. If no range meter was there would you get much closer to fire?
2. Will long range shooting become more difficult?
3. Will pilots need to aquire a "skill" at determining distance of aircraft by their size?
4. Will Identification of enemy aircraft be affected? (no (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
5. Will dogfights be harder to find? (no, ID icon unchanged (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
Obviously the benifits of not having Range Icons are the same as the side effects.
Either way its worth a try (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Who knows... You may never want them again once flying and fighting without them.
I used to fly a lot of SL and HA in warbirds, when range icons were not present I was much less likely to fire at long ranges.
I'm not saying range Icons help all that much but they do give the shooter a level of comfort and confidence in his aiming solution that would never be present in real life thus resulting in much spray n pray and gnashing of teeth.
However the range indicator is an extremely good measure of the bandits closure and E state... thus it takes a mighty chunk of the guesswork out of the fight artificially.
I'm all for more difficult shooting at any distance past point blank and up close and personal (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and it's my personal opinion that this will make long range gunnery more difficult instead of artificially limiting the weapons effectiveness ranges. If implemented we will no doubt see sights calibrated to certain ranges and wingspans. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
please comment. I may be going off on a rabbit trail here and would like to here everyones opinion on the matter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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CitabriAirbatiC
"There Is No Spoon"
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 03-31-2000).]
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Speaking as an experienced player, I like the idea.
If I was new... I dunno. Right now it is easy to pound into a newbies head "don't fire until 400". I suppose it is possible to say "let the plane fill the sights" but it is harder that way...
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we would never again have to listen to someone complaing:
"I was d1.2 and flying away straight and level and they hit me"
once inside d1 the range indicator is screaming at both the shooter and the target in 999. 899. 898. 795. 400... 355.. 200 etc
I'm old fashioned I guess.
I prefer to guess instead of know the way they really had to back then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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How about a trial period at least ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Hi
Agreed - love to do away with longer ranges - if you have minimal net lag.
If you do have bad net lag as we often do down here (in NZ) if you don't start an evasive manouver when someone is 1.6 or 1.8+
or last night 2.4+ away (!) I might as well just forget it and fly straight and level. In fact it seems to me that's what they're FE think's I am doing anyway :-)
If I don't even have that clue I am flying worse than blind.
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skeet - out
Aces High - Fight Stimulator
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indeed the element of the unkown would be much more significant (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I know I would bite my nerves much more on when to jink if I did not know the bandits precise distance (d1.2) and closure (200.5mph)
works both ways though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
ok I'm gonna shudup now, you know I'm for it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
cheers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Plane icon is necessary to distinguish enemies at Main Arena. But, range icon must not be necessary. Actual pilots measured a distance compared with size of aircraft and ring of OPL gun sight. So, they mistook a distance about big birds sometimes. We have range icon and never mistook. It may not be realistic.
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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room (http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~batman/jg68/)
"Anybody who is Japanese and likes German aircrafts
can't but get to like Ki-61."
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Im all for not having the range icons, leave the plane type icons but get rid of the range icons.
If this aint doable (is that an word? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) then get rid of the range icon above d3-d5...
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
[This message has been edited by Maniac (edited 03-31-2000).]
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Preach on brother citabria. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Glad to see there are allies from the WB's HA active in these Bulletin Boards.
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I really like this idea. In Real Life (TM) the gunsights were adjustable in that the circle could be narrowed or widened to match a plane type's wing size at a certain distance. If you had the thing sized for a Spitfire at 300 feet and the plane filled half the sight you could guess he was 600 feet away. "Fill the sight" means wait until D300 (if that was where the sight was set). We would still be able to guess the plane's distance by how much it fills our sight. Obviously plane types vary in size but I don't think it would take long to get used to.
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I mostly agree, with one caveat.
When someone is bounceing you from above the ONLY chance you have is to know when to split s. At 1k (just inside long gun range) that plane is still a speck if he's diveing at you.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't try it. But be carefull what you ask for.
I too spent my time in the HA & to a lesser amount the SL's. I would love to see reduced icons/ranges. But the flight model is so much tighter that eveasive manuvers inside 1k are pretty tough as is. Without some idea of distance bounces are going to get real nasty.
But hey, I'm game if you can talk them into trying it.
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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels
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Ghostt,
U know that theres an zoom feture right? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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The only thing i miss from that other sim is the kill message system. Everything else here is better.
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Ok, I will be the first nay sayer here.
How about it? Not for me.
If you want a special no icon arena, fine, but lets not try to convert the main.
<starts kicking the dead horse>
The graphics we use, in no way give the same amount of information that real life <tm> does to estimate distances.
We use a squished 90 degree field of view, displayed on a 15-17 inch monitor on average, and use video cards that display no where near the number of colors that the human eye can differentiate.
Sorry, but I don't want to spend my time with my nose literally stuck to my monitor trying to figure out what a black speck is, when in life you could immediately tell what it is.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Verm,
Yup you are perhaps correct, HTC needs to better the graphics on the long range cons, in that other sim it was no problem identifying the dots at long range.
Regards.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
The graphics we use, in no way give the same amount of information that real life <tm> does to estimate distances.
I agree it. But human eyes can't estimate distances so precisely. Range icon is too kind in my opinion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
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Batmann <CO/JG68> from Tokyo, Japan
JG68 Briefing Room (http://www.ceres.dti.ne.jp/~batman/jg68/)
"Anybody who is Japanese and likes German aircrafts
can't but get to like Ki-61."
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This idea would give the experienced pilot the edge. Newer pilots or pilots that do not fly as often would be at a disadvantage. It will take time and effort to correctly determine con ranges and rate of closure. This could frustrate a beginning pilot to a point where the sim is no longer enjoyable.
Basically the experienced killers would rack up kills and inexperienced beginners would be, well basically, wiped out. Maybe not to that extreme, but it is something HT must think about. For he is the one that has to create an atmosphere to keep this sim alive. New people have to want to join and feel comfortable about flying. Things are extremely tough the way it is. Trust me, I know, this is my first on-line flight sim and alot of you people are animals.
Sooner or later AH will have something like a HA where devices like range icons may be deleted. In the MA, I believe these range icon should stay to help us less experienced pilots. Remember, this is just MY lowly opinion.
Have a nice day! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Swager
-XO- II/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 03-31-2000).]
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I have to agree with Vermillion. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Citabria, I agree 100% with you. But, alas, this would only have worked if HTC had implemented it at the beginning. If they tried that now, the whining would be heard round the world! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"
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"However the range indicator is an extremely good measure of the bandits closure and E state... thus it takes a mighty chunk of the
guesswork out of the fight artificially."
This is the key issue for me, rate of closure. Being able to pick out the threats in a furball, and estimate the bad guy's E, is WAY more important to my success than knowing the range for shooting. I'm not a RL pilot, so I don't know how "artificial" an aid the range icon is in determining rate of closure, but I think this is the critical issue for a balance between playability and realism.
Of all the suggestions I've seen for icons, this is what I'd like to try:
1. Icon color would be user adjustable. This allows everyone to have maximum icon visibility for their eyesight and monitor.
2. Icons show only plane type for enemy and callsign/plane type for friendly. No range indicators.
3. Icons start very transparent at long range, and get increasingly solid as range decreases.
4. Add a short delay before icons appear when switching views in the "instant" mode.
Not sure how difficult it would be to implement, or how CPU intensive it would be, but this is what I'd like to try for an "HA environment".
popeye
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Have to agree with Verm and Swager on this one, with a twist. Range Icons are necessary until technology (and our gaming budgets) meet the Mark 1 Mod 0 Eyeball. Suggest:
1 - ID only for ranges beyond 2-3K
2 - Range Icon should be accurate to 100 feet increments.
Sour
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Sourkraut
JG-2 Richthofen (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saurkraut.gif)
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 03-31-2000).]
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heres a pic of what I'm talking about. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://pages.hotbot.com/games/dhblair/images/range.bmp)
please note this is not a discusion related to identification part of the icon... only the range info
thanks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
p.s.
Lets just say I wish I had these kind of range Icons in real life.
I know if they do give this a trial period we will notice that we will be fighting against the actual airplane much more instead of the icon "above" it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
cheers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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CitabriAirbatiC
"There Is No Spoon"
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 03-31-2000).]
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I am with you on this Citabria. Smaller plane type Icons coupled with a lack of radar ranging info would be a big plus in my book. As far as people needing info on the conn that is closing from a distance, the warp that occurs at d4-3.9 is a pretty good giveaway (used this in the training arena with squad mates flying tagless)
It seems to me that anything that gives me a cleaner/less distracting view to my target is desireable. My $.02 on the pile
JimBear
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Originally posted by Citabria:
once inside d1 the range indicator is screaming at both the shooter and the target in 999. 899. 898. 795. 400... 355.. 200 etc
I'm old fashioned I guess.
I prefer to guess instead of know the way they really had to back then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif) Well slap my hiny and call me ancient! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) Dunno bout some of y'all, but my pony and 38's sights are customized and set for 250 yards. That means, when a fighters wingtips touch each side of the target ring, I shoot his Ay-double-ess to pieces, (usually). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Now, if HTC had a default gunsight that was worth a da... uh, dang, we wouldn't need to customize them to begin with. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Range counters? We don't need no steenkeeng range counters! If there was a way to disable them, without losing the ID tag, I'd be flying without these 'range counters'.
Never used them in BrandWB's Historic Arena. Of course, BrandWB's planes were identifiable to the trained eye out to 8k and that includes ASPECT changes. Try that without tags in here. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Tern
"Live to Fly! Fly to Fight! Fight to Live!"
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Citabra, I knew exactly what you meant (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Looking at your example I cant tell the difference between pics 2 & 3, and thats a still screenshot, let alone a moving graphic.
There is just not enough graphical detail to the models we use to show the difference you would notice in real life. Especially when you take a 90 degree field of view and squeeze it down to fit on our monitors, and thats suppose to represent our normal human vision.
I took a flight in a AT-6 Texan, a couple of summers ago, and me and the pilot talked about visual distances, and judging the range to other aircraft.
So thru out the flight we would pick out planes, and from my experience in WB's I would try to guess their distances. I almost universally was incorrect and judged them to be much closer than they actually were.
Why? Because I was seeing much more detail than I ever could in the games at the same distances.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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I for one enjoy flying with my squad m8s in the training arena with no tags at all. It is very difficult to judge closure rates. It is also twice the fun (for me at least)
Perhaps Icons for friendlies and no icons for enemy and no distance markers at all?
-Sn1p3r
(http://crystal.cleardata.net/~bpetting/snipe-f4u-card.jpg)
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good point vermilion
but do you think its worth trying?
my idea is focused around having the player pay closer attention to the airplane instead of the icon.
I have faith that the majority of players in AH have the skill to do this.
It would be an insult to say they dont.
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CitabriAirbatiC
"There Is No Spoon"
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I like the idea. My personal opinion is have the range indicator turn on at around 2.5k. Unfortunately with the limits of computer screen technology, I can't tell whether someone is 800 yds or 300 yds away from me without the icon. I think your idea would increase SA in the arena. Coupled with the new smaller icons in 1.02, I think it would be great.
bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
[This message has been edited by bloom25 (edited 03-31-2000).]
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I long ago desired a trial at having no distance markings on the Icon under 1k. As somebody who has played since beta .3 and started here as my FIRST flight sim this is one thing that annoys me the most. Keep range indicators over 1 thousand yards, under that your IN RANGE and get rid of them....
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Is it worth trying? Sure, its worth trying, just not in the main. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I guess my biggest reasons for opposition, is that such a system tends to favor those with better computer equipment (bigger monitors, higher resolutions, etc.) in the name of "realism", when like we have discussed already, realism is much higher fidelity.
I think my favorite "icon compromise" was the icon settings in the SL events in WB's. While I really despised the settings of the HA.
I just want a system that doesn't make a blind old man like me, even blinder (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Keep range indicators over 1 thousand yards, under that your IN RANGE and get rid of them....
This is more to my thinking.
You shouldn't need ANY range markers if you're in gun range; it should be obvious.
OTOH, out where the planes become dots when they would not be dots in RL...but out of gun range...then you need some artificial help.
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Half the time I can't tell if the con is coming or going. This includes ranges inside d999.
Don't know if the game is playable for me without range Icons.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Hangtime is this what you were looking for?
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Do not try to change the MA. Better focus on iconless HA. The people would choose.
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Go one step future and just use the county Icon no plane type no range!
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!!! Heater !!!
(http://www.geocities.com/heater_nl/_private/heater1.jpg)
Shit Happens All The Time
"If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done."
[This message has been edited by Heater (edited 05-16-2000).]
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I would like to see the H2H have all sorts of icon choices. There we could experiment as much as we'd like.
And when the Scenario tools come, hopefully the scenario organizers will have the means to tweak the icons in the SEA.
Everything is worth a try - but not necessarily in the MA. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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Plane icon is necessary to distinguish enemies at Main Arena.
I'm for a freind or foe identifier Icon only and visible only outside 3K
This is more to my thinking.
You shouldn't need ANY range markers if you're in gun range; it should be obvious.
If someones closer than 3k then surely you should be doing something about it anyway i.e. engaging, and so the only other information you need after that is they fill the sight isn't it ?? Or am I being over simplistic ??
(note: this is not a complaint about "ICONs" used for identification)
please note this is not a discusion related to identification part of the icon... only the range info
Alright I know you don't want to include it Citabria But (and always remeber that everything before a but is B******t (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
I don't even think Plane type should be shown - too many fights are decided at long range because you know what the plane is.
Opinion of a Newbie waiting to get slapped down
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Heater beat me to it. No plane type and no range, just the country icon for sure!
-Westy
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This icon discussion has gone on for years. I'm not a big supporter of icons as presented in the major online ACM sims.
Here's my thoughts from a post on the same subject in the Gameplay topic; I still feel this way.
Here's a few points to ponder. These thoughts are based on a non-historical arena, where all sides fly all planes. Strict Historical could/should be different.
Ranges would have to be hashed out but that's an area that affords easy experimentaion once the overall system is set.
1. At long range, a plane <whether friend or foe, fighter or bomber> should just be an unknown dot.
2. As range closes, one would be able to distinguish a dot as a bomber earlier than a fighter. Therefore, some sort of "buff" ID should show at a range that would still be a dot for a fighter. At this range you couldn't tell friend from foe.
This means a dot could be either a long range plane of either type or a closer fighter that is not yet distinguishable. You just couldn't tell.
3. As range further decreased, a fighter ID should show. You should also now be able to tell, in some way, friend from foe, perhaps just a red dot at nose, tail and wingtips. This assumes that we would <in Real Life> be distinguishing plane type. Again, this would be a different range for a bomber than a fighter.
4. Now, after IFF range, add distance information. Range info should perhaps only be shown in 1k or .5k increments to avoid the rapidly running counters. I would not show range beyond a certain distance <a yet to be determined "threat" range> and I would remove it as the aircraft comes to "guns range." Perhaps cut out range info inside of 1k or .5k at minimum. You need IFF here, but you don't need range when you're ready to shoot. That should be part of pilot skills and judgement.
5. I would have no aircraft type ID available at ranges that allow you to distinugish that info from the graphics. (determined for the lowest resolution avail). I would allow some simple "type" info at ranges where you could see it in real life.
Different colored dots, arrows, numbers...any of these could be used to provide this type of information while minimizing and shrinking the huge icons we now have.
Just some thoughts. I'm sure everyone has some ideas and I'd love to read them. I hope we can get a meaningful discussion going and I also hope we can talk HTC into experimenting in the SEA with "alternative Icon lifestyles".
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The problem is in the current view system that is absolute (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
We need the new view system where we can see planes but not dots.
EAW is one of the good examples:
(http://www.microprose.com/gamesdesign/eaw/art/ss23.jpg)
[img]
Do they need icons?