Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Central on January 19, 2000, 05:17:00 AM
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Why is this tactic not accepted? Because its not a realworld W.W.II tactic? Or was it?
I've seen many of the newer pilots get flamed for doing such a stunt. When all i see, is they are using their resources to survive or save their home.
Ok, Any ways, I happened to watch a documentary on Midway. Quote from commentator
"every last plane would be needed for this impending battle" (consisting of 16-B17s and
??-B26s) "After the bombers hammered the CVs. The issue was decided, dive bomb and
then straf the targets".
I disregarded this, thinking that allied dive bombers were the ones bombing then strafing.
On looking closely at the footage, it clearly shows B26s down low strafing targets.
Ok, now im going to get someone saying "Well, if HTC puts in ground troops ackstarring
would be feasible". Well I have this to say, the Japanese didn't have a choice, all they could
do was launch what ever planes they had available on their CVs to intercept the allied
bombers.
Point being? They (Japan) had very limited planes to take off. We on the other had have the
choice of clicking the fly button regardless of how many times we die. The Ackstarring
Bomber that keeps shooting you down, hell, I give him credit for shooting you down if you
want to keep taking off from that base.
I've been a victim of this play as well, all I do is extend come in at alt and try and take them out.
Please, if you want to flame, Don't. I will be forced to go into a Head On with you, take you out with my Pea Shooter. And as I see you going in to your death spiral, I WILL chase you down and shoot you in your chute! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Doc: Wings of Glory - AAF Fights Back
Central
Dickweed FG
http://bombergroup.com (http://bombergroup.com)
[This message has been edited by Central (edited 01-19-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Central (edited 01-19-2000).]
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Hi,
My 2 cents here...
I did that yesterday (Didn't know it was considered cheating yet). The reason why I did it, was that i saw a rook base being heavily attacked, and since I am still only 95% to be considered a target in a fighter, I decided to go for something I am a bit better at : Using gun turrets...
I didn't stay on the ground though, flew at 1K, passing back and forth above that runway...
Won't do it again, in any case, i will be flying in a far corner with a couple of friends to practice some form flying...then, when we feel a bit better, we will close in... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
http://www.wardogs.org/ (http://www.wardogs.org/)
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The only real "dweeb" use of bomber gunners in AH is to get up and hose down the troops going for the map room, or the new method of using the B26 forward guns for that job. I say disable all guns on the ground; after all who would takeoff in a plane with fully armed weapons with the safeties off, let alone fire them while on a friendly airbase?
If some guy wants to fly around an airbase waiting for the enemy to spawn, let him. Admittedly it's a cheap tactic, but that's what you get for having the gameplay based solely on capturing airfields (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Actually Juzz,
When Pearl Harbor was attacked by the Japanese, there happened to be a flight of B17s flying in. The go on to say "The 17s were unarmed and had no other choice but to find a place to land"
That leaves one with the, What if?? questions. Had the 17s been loaded, would the tower tell them just to land? Or try to defend their base? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And you cant say that just dweebs do it. Would i be considered a dweeb if i did that? Brings me to one comment way back when in WBs,"Only Dweebs fly the P38". Why? Cause its too easy to fly? A very effective all around combat plane? Is that what they planned and wanted? Dont think you would have anyone sitting back saying, lets make a plane pilots cant handle and wont be effective.... oh, wait, they did create the P39 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Central
Dickweed FG
http://bombergroup.com (http://bombergroup.com)
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What I was talking about was when you drop troops at an airbase and someone who was waiting in the tower spawns in a B-26 and mows them down with the forward machineguns. Last time it happened I rammed the sucker with my C-47, but it was too late. I wasn't being a dweeb, it was revenge!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
The actual act of shooting up the troops with the plane's guns is fine - if you were about to takeoff and a bunch of infantry were rather cooperatively in front of your many .50 calibre machineguns who wouldn't give it to them? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
BUT the fact that the plane simply appears from thin air, with very little chance for any nearby fighters to destroy it before it has achieved its sole mission of shooting the drunks and stopping the field capture is what makes it a "dweeb" act. No matter how much effort is put into CAPing the field, bombing structures etc, there is no way to ensure this isn't possible, short of parking a B-26 at the end of the runway facing the spawn point... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Central,
The B26's used at midway were Torpedo bombers, They were already down low in gun range cause they had to be. Can't drop a torpedo from 20k. Never heard of the B 17 strafeing at midway before, though there were some reports out of Euorpe that such was done.
See ya on line.
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The buff gunner positions are already disabled on the ground.
I'd say add this for all guns and additionally add a 'safety switch' that disables guns when gear is down.
Az
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combat,
Exactly my point, they had to resort to using the resources they have at that time. And why cant the drop it at 20 k?? It would just turn it into a bomb (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Juzz,
I totally agree with you on the troops. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Central
Dickweed FG
http://bombergroup.com (http://bombergroup.com)
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I've seen colour film footage in which the pilot of a B-17 orders the gunners to empty their guns into anything they see on the ground as they fly a low-level raid over a Japanese-held island in the Aleutians.
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The B26 has admittedly had a big impact on gameplay; if you don't know what I mean, go to a capped field and try to take off. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/redface.gif)
In reference to the question "what would those Pearl Harbor B17's have done if they had ammunition?"... they would have died if they'd tried any ackstarring. Those were early B17's, without nearly the armament or armor. That particular B17's best defense was speed and alt performance, not dogfighting. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Anything is permitted and legal (getting back to the original thread); what will give you player respect is another matter. Do I respect the "skill" of a "pilot" in a B26 (or fighter, for that matter) who seems to collect the bulk of his/her "kills" vultching runways? No. Everyone does it, but there are some who seem to occupy that niche soley.
I do think it is hilarious some of you guys think it is ok to take a bomber low and slow over a field to vultch, yet are angry at a bomber popping up to strafe troops. If you were really in that B26 strafing the runway, it would be a few high-speed passes and get out. For that reason, I think both acts are about as "real". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
I don't pop into bombers on a capped runway; when you're vultching me it will be fighter after fighter after fighter. Call it stupid, stubborn, whatever, but I won't give up til the bitter end. (Besides, there would be far less pilots out there thinking they were good if I didn't. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) But I will say this; I will mow your troops down from the runway, from the air, from a broken craft. This seal has teeth, and I'm ready to gnaw the legs off the foolish pedestrians in my crosswalk! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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Central I'm not talking about a bomber who is defending himself I'm talking about the guys who after killing ack will circle base at low alt solely to keep fighters from taking off.Or the guy who doesn't even take bombs his only purpose is to fly through a furball.
That is ackstarring.
If you want to be a fighter you should FLY a fighter.
As Juzz stated it IS a cheap tactic and is normally frowned on.
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Dewey
Wimp
Mighty1
Baby Harp Seals
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I would venture to say that since in this sim (AH) you have to man your own guns, the term 'ackstar' does not apply - otto isn't in the picture.
1) ackstar implies that most of the defensive guns of a bomber are being used when attacking an enemy field or vs fighters in an offensive role.
2) in AH guns only fire when manned - more than one but only when manned.
Cheers,
Rifle
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Originally posted by Rifle:
I would venture to say that since in this sim (AH) you have to man your own guns, the term 'ackstar' does not apply - otto isn't in the picture.
1) ackstar implies that most of the defensive guns of a bomber are being used when attacking an enemy field or vs fighters in an offensive role.
2) in AH guns only fire when manned - more than one but only when manned.
Cheers,
Rifle
Give it whatever name you like, the results are the same.
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Originally posted by azrael:
I'd say add this for all guns and additionally add a 'safety switch' that disables guns when gear is down.
Az
Only problem here is that I and a lot of others use the gear to slow down and force an "overshoot" if the guns are disabled with the gear down that would cause problems,
How about a "weight on wheels" type of system?
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!!! Heater !!!
Shit Happens All The Time
If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done."
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Making my point here...
When I was flying that B17 yesterday evening, I was not Straffing the planes taking off, since it was a rook base, and I was rook...
The flyin' & gunnin' I did was meant to defend the base. As I stated, since I am still poor in fighting in a fighter, I decided to try to defend my country "the best way I could". I flew that B17, got 1 Kill and 1 assist, and was shot down, and bailed out...isn't that what would be called "using your assets ?".
If you're looking fo someone to strafe poor guys sittin' on the runway, don't look at me...
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Saint
DCO 186th Wardogs (Falcon4 Squad)
http://www.wardogs.org/ (http://www.wardogs.org/)
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Sounds like your vulch is not tight enough.
Usually problems with ground fighters getting troops arise as the goon approaches during a lull in the vulch. If the vulch is at its tightest when 20 grunts are dropped right on the bunker. that field will be gone 9 out of 10 times.
we have no ground troops to perform base defence. We must use the only weapons that we have.
The problem is that the grunts are not armed.
give them each a 7.7 mm lmg....
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Sounds like your vulch is not tight enough.
Usually problems with ground fighters getting troops arise as the goon approaches during a lull in the vulch. If the vulch is at its tightest when 20 grunts are dropped right on the bunker. that field will be gone 9 out of 10 times.
we have no ground troops to perform base defence. We must use the only weapons that we have.
The problem is that the grunts are not armed.
give them each a 7.7 mm lmg....
If theres some 'smart' guy or two defending the base, that base will be gone only 2 out of 10 times.. or should I share my experiences?
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Now the whole issue it seems to me is, is this allowable by the community? I've seen popup buffs, circle-strafe buffs, hell I have even watched a buff chase Dingy around the field (both taxing) nope doesn't sound like tactical desperation ta me, more like "gaming the game" same goes for dropping ur gear in a turn fight to force an overshoot,
nobody did that crap in the war (heck half these planes gear was manually cranked up, making it an impossibility. Simple fix for popups is once the hanger is blown, there are no more A/C at that field, just heaps of smoldering wreckage, if we want a credible ground defense that would be difficult to suppress and extermely effective against lightly armed infantry,it's called a tank (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
(hint preferably a Panther Ausf G)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Naw man the way you do it is just as you ".join" a buff you have to ".join" a gooney as a drunk. You get dropped on the field like a little quake dude and the field allow upto 5 base defense quake dudes to spawn and shoot it out with you. They need to change it tho so only one player needs to make it to the tower to take the field. Leave the drunks to the base defense grunts. Muhhahah.
Wab
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Have guns, will shoot.
Checks accepted here.....
In other words, shooting should be disabled wheels on ground (I thought they were).
Shooting in bomber requiring the pilot to leave the controls, the term ackstar simply does not and will not apply in my operations manual.
Using a B26 for ground attack is completely within the boundries of acceptable behavior
(forward firing weapons attest to the fact).
Having a con fly in front while pilot at controls and said pilot shooting con down
(even employing heavy ACM) with said forward firing weapons is also completelely legit and exciting as well.
Yeager
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Central,
I agree...You'll find me in the nose of a fort more than at the controls of a fighter, but(!) I just am not fond of those who hop in a B-17 at a capped base, simply to shoot troops.
Also, the B-17's at Midway were not running suicide runs into enemy fire. They were trying (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) to drop bombs from altitude on the Japanese carriers much prior to the attack by the SBD's. I don't believe that the forts scored a hit.
Salute,
IC
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Central, ackstar refers to a bomber on the ground using its defensive guns to fight from the ground, since they have been disabled on the ground the new tactic is to use the nose .50's of the B-26 WHILE ON THE GROUND, your idea of disabling guns on the ground is a good one. the A-26 (B-26 varient) was used in ground support roles in the war and even obtained some airel kills vs fighters with it's nose guns.
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I often drop to low altitude after a bombing run to an enemy base when I am flying a b26. After the bombs are gone, I can't see anything wrong with using those forward firing guns to strafe any remaining targets, and if that happens to be a fighter taking off, so much the better. I agree that this method of vulching is somewhat cheap, but if you didn't shoot the planes taking off, very soon they would be the ones shooting at you. In the case when a c47 is on the way, I will ALWAYS do everything I can to assist it. I once even hit an enemy fighter taking off with a bomb. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
When flying the b17, I hardly ever attempt a strafing run. It is far to hard to go from cockpit, to gun, back to cockpit etc. Also the b17 just doesn't have the firepower that the b26 possesses with those forward guns. (Up until the last version, I almost always lost my elevator as well when putting the plane on autopilot. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif) )
As far as taking off from a capped field with a bomber to battle the fighters, I used to do this back in beta tour 1. I don't do it anymore, because I generally to better taking up a quick TnB fighter, like an la5, c205 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif), or even (eek) spit. It is pretty hard to get a bomber off the ground at a well capped field anyway. If you are new to this game, I personally don't see anything wrong with trying to support your country any way you can. I'm sure, however, that once someone gains experience in fighters, they will prefer to use them instead. Besides, I don't know of anything much easier to kill then a b17 just taking off. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Just my opinions on this subject.
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Ah yes, I remember when people claimed "In AH there can be no ackstars because guns are manned", and I thought how naive this was.
Let me say, once again, IRL™ arguments have no basis in a strat system based on field capture. If WWII were fought as AH (Field Capture = the way to ultimate victory), you'd see plenty of buffs capping bases.
The way the current strat system is set up, you have to heavily suppress a field in order to get a goon in. The bombers in this game do really well at strafing things on the ground. But in a dogfight, they're outmatched.
It's a rule. If the enemy at the moment has air superiority such that their bombers can fly NOE over your base unmolested, don't take off.
And yes, I will on occasion decide to be vulched. And I do wait in the tower until I spy a low dot, then grab a Spit with HS (for goon) and 303s (for anyone who might decide to leave the goon) and go to town. And I do believe that using a B17 to strafe troops on ground is as offensive as taxistrafing: the ground forces have been destroyed, and you're using the infinite respawning of A/C to fill the gap.
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On more than 1 occassion, I've used my 17 as a gun platform to suppress a base. Usually untill at least 3 capping fighters show up.
Sometimes I survive, mostly I don't.
Whats the problem???
Conversely, if I can get my 17 off the ground and defend a base, I'm gonna do it.
Haven't yet flown a 26 on a sortie, so I have no idea how to use it.
If it has forward firing guns, that can be used to kill drunks,, then perhaps those guns should suffer as do the 17's turrets, no firing while on wheels.
Of course, running over the little bastiges will work also....
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GreyBeard
Flight Commander, Aces High
Skeleton Crew
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Well,
The other night (I'm a ROOK BTW) a fellow rook got his name in the buffer a few times.
I think on one sortie he got 38 and on the next 14.
I was not flying a B-26, he parked it near the spawning point of a field in contention.
Now, normally I would have made much noise and beratement of this individual for such activity, but I didn't.
I didn't because I watched a pony spawn from that field a few minutes before, and kill two Paratroopers dropped by a C-47. Killing those two Paras kept us from capturing that field.
What I would like to see is!!!
1. Allow all buff guns to be on, all times. If someone wants to park a B-17 on a runway and use it as an Ack Platform, SO BE IT. No Gear Up and No Weight on Wheels, let them sit in their plane on the ground, and shoot from the top turret and sides and nose and tail.
2. Make it so that If I drop a bomb from alt, it will kill any planes I hit.
3. Make it so if I bomb all the ammo bunkers at a field new spawning planes at that field don't get ammo, until that team flies in a C-47 and lands at that field to deliver Ammo/Fuel/Parts/Troops/Etc.. Etc.. or the Ammo Bunkers Rebuild.
4. Make it so that if I bomb the fuel at a particular Airfield, and planes spawning on the runway at a particular field, do so with no fuel, until a C-47 arrives at that field delivering Fuel/Ammo/Parts/Troops/Etc... Etc... or that Fuel Bunkers Rebuild.
5. Make it so that If I bomb all the System Targets at a field (Hangar/Tower/Barraks) Then NO PLANES CAN SPAWN AT A FIELD. SOmeone who clicks Fly or types .Fly will just be a Pilot who is Planeless at the spawning point.
What I am saying here is.
If you are at a Airfield under attack, and a buff comes over and takes out the ack, you will be spawning at a vultch fest. If you choose to spawn a B-17 and use it as Ack, you can do so. Then the NME Bomber, takes out the AMmo Bunkers, the next time you spawn that B-17 and move to a gun position, and squeeze the trigger nothing happens cause that field is out of ammo. Meanwhile the B-17 bombs the Fuel BUnkers, and the next time you spawn in that B-17 you can't even start the engines cause there is no fuel at that airfield. So you sit at the spaawning point of the runway, in a B-17 with no ammo and no fuel.
Now, you have a choice, after your unarmed, imobile bombers is vultched, spawn from another field, and fly a C-47 to the field in contention, and deliver fuel, say a C-47 can Carry 5000 Gallons of AV Fuel, 50,000 Rounds Of Various Amuniton, and 5 paras.
Your feild can't rebuild without the barracks cause there are no troops to do the rebuilding.
So, flying in 10 C-47 from another field to the field in Contention will cause a complete restoration of that field facilities.
THe Attackers should only need to drop or deliver 10 paras in 1 C-47 to capture a field.
Of course all these other features (Concerning your ability to get a fully loaded C-47 to a field in contention should depend on the overall health of your nation. If your AMmo Factory/COmplex has been bombed out, then you can only fly 10,000 rnds from another field to the field in contention.)
Anyhow, what this does is add another strategic element to field capture, disabling the STRATEGIC TARGETS at a field in contention will have an Positive effect in making the field more capturable, and limit the defenders rescources. I personally would BOmb the ACK/AMMO/FUEL, and then let them spawn unarmed/unfueld aircraft all day.
Leave them sitting at the spawning point, helpless as I land my C-47 and unload my Paras Right by the map room. If they want to try and stop me, they have to take off from a field with fuel and ammo, and intercept me, or survive the flight to the field in contention, and strafe my Paras/C-47 before I fully unload it.
I will cross post a good portion of this to the Gameplay/Feedback Issues Forum.
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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
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Downtown. I think that would make base defence for inferior numbered counties imposible and allow resets of every 30 miniuts. I know its sounds good but putting more restrictions on the defenders wont work without some serios restrictions on the attacker.
Imagine how easy the last 2 fields would be to capture. There is no where else for the defenders to go. 4 b26s(pretty much un-interceptable) could totaly remove the only places where the defending pilots could take off.
Or alternetivley any group of 6 bombers could quickly remove a counties ability to take of from their 3 high fields...
anyway. Allot of otherthings would have to change.
Like if you get shot down over enemy territory you cant fly for 20 min or something.
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Pongo
Sturm Gruppe
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Well, I assume that this will need to Happen.
B-17G will only be able to launch from fields that can handle B-17s, and B-26s will launch from fields that can handle both B-17s and B-26s.
No more being able to launch from any field with all aircraft. I assume that as more Arenas/Terrains are introduced this will occur. HEck the runways we have now at all fields are barely long enough to take of in a B-17, let alone land.
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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!