Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on August 15, 2004, 10:11:34 PM
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Sorry, but that should be the new name for this game.
Switching sides should not be the answer to a game that is supposed to be based on teamwork in the country you are flying with. The rooks were able to build a teamwork structure and it worked out so well that the numbers got lopsided. In order to prevent that, HTC implements a system that prevents the high number country from flying certain aircraft.
The answer that all the supporters yell is "Switch sides or fly a different plane if you don't like it" - Sorry, but that defeats the purpose
If everyone just decided to switch sides every time they are in the "big number" country, how are we supposed to build teamwork relationships with other pilots, or keep the relationships that we have had, in some cases for several years?
If all this side switching becomes common place, then AHII will totally loose any sense of teamwork base and might as well just be Crimson Skies....
Think of all the heated debates about field capture in the past and how the common answer was.. if you can't capture a field, then learn to organize your team to get the job done.... How do we organize a Team if the players are never on the same side?
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Secondly, the simple answer of "fly a different plane" doesn't work. The Rooks were just ahead in numbers, so everying less than 12 ENY was disabled... You couldn't even buy a 262 at 293 perks....
The opposing sides (knights in the example) were probably buying perk planes at super discount prices.. and they were buying them left and right... Why? Because they KNEW their perk ride was going to be almost impossible to beat.. No worries about going up against P-51D, La7, N1K, Spit IX, or perhaps another 262.
<< NO ONE SHOULD BE ABLE TO FLY A 262 IF ONE SIDE CANNOT AT ANY PRICE >>
The disabled planes make it far too easy for the lesser numbered side to defend... actually to push forward against the larger number side.
Side balancing may be needed, but the method now in place is certainly not the best possible.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Switching sides should not be the answer to a game that is supposed to be based on teamwork in the country you are flying with.
Well, I figure since so many people are repeating this, I can repeat myself too.
You may want to consider a change of perspective: instead of "three countries", think "one community". You are not changing sides at all, you are simply making the game better by evening the teams. If you and your buddies at work did a friendly pick-up basketball game, and two guys had to leave the other team, you'd fill in their place so the game could continue. Right? This is no different.
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Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.
Try come up with an idea that does the following.
1. Moves people to the other side.
This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.
HiTech
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How about this HiTech...
Instead of disabling certain late war planes when a side imbalance exists...Have these certain late war planes become perk rides(when the side imbalancer kicks in)
When say the Rooks have (example) 20% larger force than Bishops or Nites...The La7/P51d etc... costs 7 to 10 perks.
Might help to side-balance without upsetting certain people who like to fly specific late war planes...
:)
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Midnight,
One of the few times I completely disagree with you. If it's a squad issue simply move your squad...rotate em like the AK's did. If it's a "side" issue...thats EXACTLY why the problem exists. All this talk about tactics and teamwork is garbage. The real issue is an unbalanced arena that severely comprimized (sp?) game play. Instead of becoming a part of the solution you continue to be a part of the problem...don't confuse #'s and the best all purpose plane in game with anything else. If you guys are that good simply use P47-30's in the Jabo role with a P51B cover screen and stop crying in your soup....
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Originally posted by SirLoin
How about this HiTech...
Instead of disabling certain late war planes when a side imbalance exists...Have these certain late war planes become perk rides(when the side imbalancer kicks in)
When say the Rooks have (example) 20% larger force than Bishops or Nites...The La7/P51d etc... costs 7 to 10 perks.
Might help to side-balance without upsetting certain people who like to fly specific late war planes...
:)
I like that idea, but you'd have to start it fairly high for it to do the same thing as completely disabling it I think.
I don't really know though, perking the C-Hog at 8 dropped its usage fairly dramatically.
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Why not just switch sides and fly for yourself. I did it tonight and it wasnt so bad. I didnt worry about clearing 6s didnt have to worry to much about giving them either. After all I am not really a bish, Im a rook that went over because they had an extra P51 they didnt need. Didnt even have to worry about KS since I wasnt there to be part of the team just garner some kills for myself. Its not like they asked me to be part of thier team, I was forced because of a rolling side imbalance. I was still able to help the rook cause by flying to nit fields the rooks were attacking (had to be very careful since everybody was red) but I was able to take out some FHs and some VHs. I even Kill Shootered a couple bish that decided to shoot from behind me. I mean WHY NOT pull in front of thier bullets its like killing 2 at once and they were shooting from behind me trying to steal my kill and I wasnt a team player. All in all I give the experience 2 thumbs up:aok :aok It was more relaxing not having to worry about where anything but the enemy is in relation to you.
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Originally posted by phookat
Well, I figure since so many people are repeating this, I can repeat myself too.
You may want to consider a change of perspective: instead of "three countries", think "one community". You are not changing sides at all, you are simply making the game better by evening the teams. If you and your buddies at work did a friendly pick-up basketball game, and two guys had to leave the other team, you'd fill in their place so the game could continue. Right? This is no different.
Sorry, it is different. 10 guys playing basketball.. you know them all, they are usually somewhat of a known person to you.
AH is a community of several hundred at at given time, most of whom you or I don't know.
I've flown Rooks now for 4 years and have come to know quite a few other "dedicated" rooks. When I am flying in the same area as them, I know what to expect and weather or not I can count on them to help me out if I need it.
All the guys in my squad, but also guys like skpg, Ironblade, BFD, FDutchman, 4010, Mn7, Tequila, Elguapo, TheBeeg, RAFBader, APDrone, and Tiger9mm just a name a few long time Rooks.
I think the same holds true for most players.
Not to mention that after flying against certain players for so long, people tend to build either a certain repect for, or total loathing of other players. For example, if I switched to knights or bish today, I know there are certain players who I would let die in a furball and not risk my arse to save them... probably visa-versa too....
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Not sure if it has been mentioned or not but would makeing planes limited at bases 50 miles from frontlines be a possible compromise?
Folks get to fly the planes they want but it will take time to get to the frontline base they desire to fly their favorite rides at. Alot can happen in favor of the attackers in the time it would take for the time it takes to get from point A to point B.
Granted it doesnt exactly help the numbers/ uneven sides issue but it does keep the popular planes from getting back into the action as quick. So in a sense it can possibly control the dominance issue by numbers these planes pose at conflicts.
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Originally posted by hitech
Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.
Try come up with an idea that does the following.
1. Moves people to the other side.
This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.
HiTech
Have we actually tried contacting directly squad CO's? Since the Rooks use this RJO thing... and GhostDancer is a central figure... have we tried going to GD and say... "Hey.. GD... can you talk to some of your fellow Squad Bosses and see if any of them would be willing to change countries?
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Originally posted by Wolf14
Not sure if it has been mentioned or not but would makeing planes limited at bases 50 miles from frontlines be a possible compromise?
If Im fighting against the numbers, I think the last thing I would want to see is a conveyerbelt of ponies and Las comming in at 25-30K because the game forced them to up 2-3 sectors away. I dont see how that helps the underdog, or change the numbers.
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25k - 30k, you mean they don't already? (if they have them available of course)
Seriously though, making them up from fields in the rear echelon is not the answer.
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Originally posted by hitech
Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.
Try come up with an idea that does the following.
1. Moves people to the other side.
This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.
HiTech
I know ! Give perk CREDITS for moving to the other side. That way you are REWARDING someone for moving rather than PUNISHING someone for staying !
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No Hitech YOU are wrong! Please....just leave it alone! Put it back the way it was. It will naturally seek it's own level. Each country in its turn will have the most then the least.
What we have here is no way to reset and 262's against Spit 1's. The whole field/country capture is neutered. Don't let this happen!
No one asked any squads to move! If I had been asked (and not by the stinkin' whiners) I would have most probably moved the 339th. I'll bet other CO's would have too. When we joined, the Rooks were sadly out numbered. It was nice to see it turn around.
So maybe enoughs enough! But, I can't believe this is working. It's not only Rooks. The Bish had it this morning and they didn't like it either.
Hoping this will go away,
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Squads shouldn't have been needed to be 'asked' to move.
Knit and Bish squads went Rook to balance numbers without being asked, because it was the right ( couldn't think of other word, dont take personally ) thing to do.
Yes the Rooks have good cameradery and the squad I'm in enjoyed our time with them (we were originally Knit).
When the Rooks started gaining numbers we went to the lowest country at the time which was Bish.
Still have buddies in both Knits and Rook, but in the last 2 years to try to even things we swapped twice, without being asked.
In fact during beta phase we flew Knits again because they were the most constantly outnumbered.
All in all loyalty to squad is all that really matters to me, doesn't matter what country we happen to be flying for.
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Originally posted by jdpete75
Why not just switch sides and fly for yourself. I did it tonight and it wasnt so bad. I didnt worry about clearing 6s didnt have to worry to much about giving them either. After all I am not really a bish....
Why not switch sides and just fly as you normally would? Is it so hard to help a stranger?
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Originally posted by Hyrax81st
I know ! Give perk CREDITS for moving to the other side. That way you are REWARDING someone for moving rather than PUNISHING someone for staying !
That one was already put out for consideration last week.
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Actually thinking about it, if the Rooks spread their squads out throughout the week you probably would be affected very little by the modifier. Or is it you enjoy the big number disparity that much.
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Phookat -
the pickup basketball game analogy works if that's what you're interested in. For some the analogy is more like league basketball vs. pickup games. Teams in leagues are much more organized and appeal to an entirely different crowd vs. pickup bball. Nothing wrong with either. The point is both analogies (at the least) exist in the MA with different folks gravitating torward different analogies.
HT-
I didn't know idea's were still up for discussion. I agree with you and others that we should address the numbers imbalance. Obviously alot has been hashed on this and I certainly haven't gone through the trouble to collate the ideas. Obviously you've weeded a lot of them out already and settled on the ENY approach.
If you're still up for ideas I'm sure we can still generate them. What were your thoughts regarding the idea Skynome posted or ideas similar to it? Are there modifications to that idea that would make it acceptable in your view?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=127213&referrerid=3699
We're working on adapting to the current system. I actually have no problem with moving countries as a squadron but would like some safeguards built in so that we don't lose squadron cohesion due to the spikiness of short term numbers and country shifts that gets members locked in countries away from their squadrons. EDIT: - e.g. 1st squad member goes online and is in country A. 2nd squad member who several hours before was in country B goes online 10 minutes later and is automatically switched to the country A to join the 1st squad member.
Humble:
I take exception to the comment that teamwork is garbage. That's certainly why I've lasted as long as I have online here. What draws me is tight teamwork among a close knit group of pilots in AH in a massive online gaming enviroment. Otherwise I could get the same from IL2 FB, Falcon 4.0, CFS3 etc. for free instead.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I'm finding it hard to be a Bish right now for the simple fact I have no one to talk to. The rest of my squad did not switch over with me and I only know a few people in Bishland. I am still willing to give it a few more days but I understand why so many people do not want to switch. It's human instinct to resent things being forced on us.
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Xargos fly along with us, although your not a squad member (wouldn't expect ya to leave your squad) you are welcome to wing up with us.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Sorry, it is different. 10 guys playing basketball.. you know them all, they are usually somewhat of a known person to you.
Even if they weren't all known to you, you'd still switch sides. And even if you knew the ppl on your team and the other guys were from the Accounting Department, you'd still switch sides. Because the purpose is just to have some fun playing hoops. Not a big deal.
Right? Tell me I'm right. Tell me you wouldn't throw a fit and ***demand*** to stay on the Human Resources team because you've been working with them for, God, 10 years now, and you've developed *personal relationships* with them, and you couldn't possibly think of *betraying* them by joining the other team for this all-important game of pick-up basketball from whose outcome the next NBA all-star team will likely be selected and for which therefore precautions must be taken to avoid disrupting the almost telepathic tactical communication you have developed with the guys in the HR department. Especially since those Accounting guys are *total pansies* for suggesting that the game might be more fun if one of you came over and made it a 5-5 game instead of 6-4.
Originally posted by Midnight
Not to mention that after flying against certain players for so long, people tend to build either a certain repect for, or total loathing of other players. For example, if I switched to knights or bish today, I know there are certain players who I would let die in a furball and not risk my arse to save them... probably visa-versa too....
Luke. Don't give in to Hate.
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Phookat:
Did you catch my post? Different strokes for different folks ;). You liken this to pickup bball. I liken it to league bball. Different motivations, same game. Makes a world of difference.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by dtango
Phookat -
the pickup basketball game analogy works if that's what you're interested in. For some the analogy is more like league basketball vs. pickup games. Teams in leagues are much more organized and appeal to an entirely different crowd vs. pickup bball. Nothing wrong with either. The point is both analogies (at the least) exist in the MA with different folks gravitating torward different analogies.
The league analogy doesn't work for this topic, because in a league the game simply stops if there aren't equal players on each side. This is a freeform environment, much closer to the pickup game. And the arena would be a lot more easygoing if people treated it that way. And I think such a change of perspective would ease a lot of folks' pain, given what I've been reading here. ;)
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At this point I could careless if I had to move to another country. Is there a way to account for exactly how many numbers there are with each and every squad in the game? If so give us a round number for how many and what it would take to even the numbers up. Squad COs could get an email with the information and whoever chooses to switch could email HT. HT could then tally up the numbers again so as to ensure a somewhat balanced arena. If things match up the deal is done and we go on our merry way. If this kind of limiting stays in affect for a long period of time I doubt I'll stay around myself. But as folks have said in the past the squad means the most and I'll do as they wish(To an extent Sr). I just don't feel like us switching only to find out we are gonna get screwed on the other side too and be stuck for x amount of hours.
I understand that many folks enjoy having a home where they know we can count on the next person. I can also understand why many folks actually enjoy being a Rook. For me it's not about the numbers it's about respect you get from them. I have yet to witness anyone on the Rook side being a jerk to one of their own. I know in my time I've made a few enemies when it comes to the game. JBs are one that come to mind right off the bat. What amazed me is with as much as we fought over channel 1 when I came to the Rooks there was no ill feelings whatsoever. They welcomed me to the Rooks as if I had been there from the beginning. Same goes with the majority of the Rooks.
I flew with the Bish for a year straight and from day one alot of the Bish belittled you, were rude, and had absolutely nothing good to say at all except for their own squad mates. Maybe if one day Bish could learn to be a little more respectful then folks would fly there. There are alot of good guys on Bish but for the most part they get what they deserve when folks leave. If you treat your countrymen like watermelon on a daily basis then your bound to have them leave. I wouldn't be surprised if half the new folks that come on also leave or change sides because of this. Who wants to deal with folks that give you sarcastic remarks for anything you ask? It's pretty bad when you want to mute your own country channel because of how rude folks are.
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Phookat:
That's the problem. I and others don't see this as a pickup game. And I doubt seriously you would convince me otherwise ;)!
BTW - I've been in league games where we didn't have a full roster and we only fielded 6 guys. The other team had 12. The game didn't stop then (and I was so dead after the game I barely crawled out the gym!).
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Oh and one more thing. It'd help if squads cleaned up their rosters so we know who is actually active. If and when they come back to fly somewhat regularly then add them back. I'm sure that will help the overall numbers actually playing. It'd also be nice for new folks just joining that if the system could register the overall numbers allocated to a side and place them accordingly. Ofcourse this could only be done if HT knows what squads are flying for what side.
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HiTech has come up with a good sollution to balance game IMO.
:aok
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All you freakin crybaby Nitsbitshes can't wait to see what rule you come up with next to get hitech to try and slow rooks down.
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Originally posted by hitech
Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.
Try come up with an idea that does the following.
1. Moves people to the other side.
This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.
HiTech
Perhaps a combination of things to cast a wider net.
If it was a perk cost like Sirloin has suggested and a score factor/multiplier of some type , the two things working together might encourage a broader section of those playing to switch for the longer term. ie those that care about perks and those that care about score. You can can't come up with anything that will really impact 100% of the players , so it's a matter of hitting as high a % as you can.
Lots of gentle nudging might eventually add up. They would then have no real reason to whine either.
If ENY was incorporated in the scoring , would people be encouraged to also broaden the use of the planeset ?
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We already have a score factor/multiplier, it didn't encourage anyone to move.
Anyone think of the poor newbie on his 2 week free account if they perk instead of disable? At least at the moment he has the option to change sides, perking them just puts the poor guy in even more trouble. Result - 2 week free trial, bye bye.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
We already have a score factor/multiplier, it didn't encourage anyone to move.
Anyone think of the poor newbie on his 2 week free account if they perk instead of disable? At least at the moment he has the option to change sides, perking them just puts the poor guy in even more trouble. Result - 2 week free trial, bye bye.
Plane type or country numbers aren't currently factored into score as far as I know. but I could be wrong. I thought they only affected perks
There are people ( a lot , not just a few) that care enough about their score that they drive miles in PT boats to shoot a few rockets at a building. They would probably change country quickly if they thought it would improve their score
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Originally posted by hitech
I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me".
I've read some of the whines, and I agree entirely with HT here. Some examples - Instead of disabling a plane, apply a perkage charge to it.
Translation: Right now I have bucketloads of perk points, and this method would allow me to fly what I want when I want. Change the balancer to kick in only when the total arena attendance goes above 300.
Translation: My squaddies and I are prepared to reschedule our slot times to avoid USPT, so that we can fly whatever we want whenever we want. My squad flies historical, so we HAVE to have the P51D.
Translation: We've named our squad after a WW2 mustang squad. We were hoping that this empty gesture would trick you into letting us fly the P51D whenever we want. Instead of stopping these aircraft completly when one sides numbers are high couldnt they be limited to rear air bases or the larger rear bases?
Translation: We don't mind flying from further back - we need the flying time in order to get to our intended altitude of 25K.The new patch is kewl with 1 exception and you know what that is! I pay my 15 a month to fly whatever i want to fly and now im dictated to as to what i can and cannot fly and thats crap.
Translation: It's not the game fix that's crap, it's me. So I'm sticking to my self declared rights as a consumer because I feel it's my right as a customer to mask my own suckage with an uberplane.
Add to this list!
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Originally posted by hitech
Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.
Try come up with an idea that does the following.
1. Moves people to the other side.
This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.
HiTech
or just make it so if there are larger numbers on one side, you can only join one of the others.
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HiTech,
Imagine NDisles map with the 3 mainlands having ALL uncaptureable fields. Suddenly the objective is no longer gangbanging for reset, but prominence is shown by who owns the center island.
The island maps in AW the objective was always to own the "Hawaii" island in the middle of the map. This was the "contested" portion of the map and where the land grabbing battles took place. Everything else was centered around grabbing a supporting base, CV for the attack on the Hawaii island. It was a blast.
You want good quality fights, they'll be in this scenario, you want to land grab, you can do it on the "center island". You want to show your country is the "best" you can grab the most "inner" bases. But bottom line is there will always be your homeland to launch from, and good fights to be had.
Rotate the maps every 3 days no matter what, have 6 or so uncapturable fields. You've effectively taken away the "objective" of resetting someones homeland and replaced it with the capturing of a generic piece of land in the middle of the map. This will quell the hate and discontent of all the subscribers
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Does anyone remember when we had the most balance in team numbers? It was when the squads, or most of them, had semi-regular team rotations. It got to the point that many CO's were talking to each other to figure out where the other squads were moving this tour or this month so the numbers were mostly balanced. It wasn't originally setup that way, but it evolved into that and it worked well.
Another benefit was that everyone got to know each other better. The atmosphere was much more "friendly", not like the maliciousness I see now. I am seeing references in recent posts about letting people die in a furball if someone changes teams because they don't know anyone and "hate" other players on those teams. I think that is really sad. It's a game, have fun and quit taking everything so seriously and personally.
Most know that I recently left the AK squad so that I can switch around to the other teams. I tell ya, the last couple weeks have been an absolute hoot. I worried a lot less about the "numbers" and had a lot mre fun flying WITH everyone else instead of worrying about killing those same guys or getting killed by them.
Sure, everyone still gets frustrated, but I find my frustrations to be a lot more centered on issues with the game and the internet than with any one particular player or what they are doing.
I was also pleasantly surprised that the other teams welcomed me the way they did. I hung out with the JB's for a while and had a blast. I hung out with the nits for a week or so and it was a hoot. It was interesting to fly AGAINST the bish for a change.
I really would like to see the squads rotating again en masse. I think it would gravitate back to the way things were...numbers would balance better and I think everyone as a whole would have a lot more fun and a lot less frustration and anger. HT's newest "system" for balancing sides is just a testament to the centric nature that has pervaded the game.
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HT:
Didn't want the following to get lost in the thread. I had 2 questions:
(1) What were your thoughts regarding the idea Skynome posted or ideas similar to it? Are there modifications to that idea that would make it acceptable in your view?
http://www.hitechcreations.com/foru...referrerid=3699
(2) With the current system, could safeguards be built in so that we don't lose squadron cohesion due to the spikiness of short term numbers and country shifts that gets members locked in countries away from their squadrons? E.g:
- AUTO COUNTRY SWITCH: 1st squad member goes online and is in country A. 2nd squad member who several hours before was in country B goes online 10 minutes later and is automatically switched to the country A to join the 1st squad member. Auto country switch would have to overide any country time limits.
- COUNTRY SWITCH VOTE: If there are multiple squad members online a squad member doesn't switch countries individually but only switches after a "squad switch vote" (like map votes or kick votes in FPS multiplayer games). On a successful vote all squad members online switch to the voted country by the system.
- VOTING PARAMETERS: Votes can only be issued in tower. Squad members flying can respond to votes. The system doesn't switch countries for the squad until all squad members are in the tower on a successful vote. All members already in tower waiting can't re-up until the last squad member still flying lands at which point they are all switched by the system to the new country.
Thanks!
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Kev367th
We already have a score factor/multiplier, it didn't encourage anyone to move.
Anyone think of the poor newbie on his 2 week free account if they perk instead of disable? At least at the moment he has the option to change sides, perking them just puts the poor guy in even more trouble. Result - 2 week free trial, bye bye.
I don't think Perks will change much... but give the new guys 300 perks to start with.... at the end of 2 weeks let it reset to 0 and they can go from there.
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Originally posted by dtango
Humble:
I take exception to the comment that teamwork is garbage. That's certainly why I've lasted as long as I have online here. What draws me is tight teamwork among a close knit group of pilots in AH in a massive online gaming enviroment. Otherwise I could get the same from IL2 FB, Falcon 4.0, CFS3 etc. for free instead.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs [/B]
I didn't say that teamwork was garbage, in fact it's an admirable thing and I've never had anything but respect for any of the squads that actually fly as a "unit"...
What I mentis simple, alot of comments have been directed along the lines of "we're being bunished for "flying as a team", "using tactics" being better" etc...when the real bottom line is that pure numbers has been the imbalancer.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I've read some of the whines, and I agree entirely with HT here. Some examples
Your nose is turning brown....
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ive said it time and time again, perk EVERYTHING. that means the sides with more numbers looses more perks...........
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Originally posted by 4510
Your nose is turning brown....
...but at least it's still short.
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4510: Another past aceptible behavior.
This thread was one of the few that was going well. So Im telling you stop attacking people, including me, and debate the issue.
To everyone else, do not dog pile. let it drop and go on.
HiTech
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humble: - ah, thanks for the clarification.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Murdr
That one was already put out for consideration last week.
I guess it was easy to miss with all the threads busting out all over... Did it get an HTC response ?
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The Rooks had numbers again this weekend, albiet without the more common planes one normally sees when fighting them. I know its early, but from what I can see its not working thus far.
Could HTC in the meantime allow people to switch teams more often than only once in an 8 hour period? In an 8 hour period the numbers can fluctuate wildly and it may help encourage people switch around.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
We already have a score factor/multiplier, it didn't encourage anyone to move.
Anyone think of the poor newbie on his 2 week free account if they perk instead of disable? At least at the moment he has the option to change sides, perking them just puts the poor guy in even more trouble. Result - 2 week free trial, bye bye.
What about the guy whos sees the ad for Aces High on the Discovery Wings Channel after seeing a program about his favorite WWII plane the P51. He says to himself i want to try to fly that plane online, he signs up an can only get the P40 ( as an example) lost before he gets out of the tower...
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It really comes down to this, for some reason more people CHOOSE to fly Rooks. Whether it be for the numbers advantge or because perhaps flying for Knights and Bish is not as much their cup of tea. Regardless the reason, HiTech has decidied to penalize us for this.
I think the only way to solve the numbers imbalance is get the Bish/Knits to make flying for their "country" more inticing.
Its obvious that droves of players from the Knights and the Bishops have no problem country switching or leaving without any hesitation. I and many other Rooks, in contrast, have no desire to leave Rooks.
But hey, its the 21st century, lets put the blame where it really belongs. Knights and Bish cannot keep up with the numbers of the Rooks, so it must be the Rooks fault, penalize the Rooks.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually thinking about it, if the Rooks spread their squads out throughout the week you probably would be affected very little by the modifier. Or is it you enjoy the big number disparity that much.
It's confusing - a little bit. In other threads, some non-Rooks say it's the numbers every day that are a drag... others are saying it's the squad night, or RJO. I suggested there may be server statistics that actually show the numbers (by country) vary quite a bit during the day and across the rolling time zones. Is the problem of numbers imbalance world-wide ? or just USA "prime time" ? Server stats would show...
Speaking for myself - and some others I know - there are lots of squaddies and other Rooks who are married (with kids) and working adults. Sunday night was the best night for our squad to be able to fly together - by vote.
It's not a number disparity preference for us, it's a "when is it most convenient for us to all fly together during the week" choice, and a squad association choice (that happens to land us in the Rook country), as well as our plane of choice.
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Originally posted by hawk410
What about the guy whos sees the ad for Aces High on the Discovery Wings Channel after seeing a program about his favorite WWII plane the P51. He says to himself i want to try to fly that plane online, he signs up an can only get the P40 ( as an example) lost before he gets out of the tower...
I see this as a more plausable sitiuation
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Originally posted by beet1e
Translation: We've named our squad after a WW2 mustang squad. We were hoping that this empty gesture would trick you into letting us fly the P51D whenever we want.
LOL, nice list beet1e. This is the one that I think is the lamest so far. As if the RL squad would quit if supplied with 51Bs for a week.
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Originally posted by Warp
Does anyone remember when we had the most balance in team numbers? It was when the squads, or most of them, had semi-regular team rotations. It got to the point that many CO's were talking to each other to figure out where the other squads were moving this tour or this month so the numbers were mostly balanced. It wasn't originally setup that way, but it evolved into that and it worked well.
Another benefit was that everyone got to know each other better. The atmosphere was much more "friendly", not like the maliciousness I see now. I am seeing references in recent posts about letting people die in a furball if someone changes teams because they don't know anyone and "hate" other players on those teams. I think that is really sad. It's a game, have fun and quit taking everything so seriously and personally.
Most know that I recently left the AK squad so that I can switch around to the other teams. I tell ya, the last couple weeks have been an absolute hoot. I worried a lot less about the "numbers" and had a lot mre fun flying WITH everyone else instead of worrying about killing those same guys or getting killed by them.
Sure, everyone still gets frustrated, but I find my frustrations to be a lot more centered on issues with the game and the internet than with any one particular player or what they are doing.
I was also pleasantly surprised that the other teams welcomed me the way they did. I hung out with the JB's for a while and had a blast. I hung out with the nits for a week or so and it was a hoot. It was interesting to fly AGAINST the bish for a change.
I really would like to see the squads rotating again en masse. I think it would gravitate back to the way things were...numbers would balance better and I think everyone as a whole would have a lot more fun and a lot less frustration and anger. HT's newest "system" for balancing sides is just a testament to the centric nature that has pervaded the game.
Nice post Warp
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Phookat:
As if a RL squadron would have their P-51D's pullled to be replaced by their P-51B's? Hmmm.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by dtango
humble: - ah, thanks for the clarification.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
I've never had anything but respect for you guys, every once in awhile you'd actually even stick around and rumble a bit. Thats why I'm a bit confused...you always appeared to be a "mission 1st" type of squad...so...I'd think the "plane limiter" would be less of an issue. Yes the "B" pony is more limited in a JABO role..but it's as good or better as a "cover" fighter. Given the "mission profiles" you guys fly (my recollection) you can easily substitute Jugs, 38's (and still be "in theater") or hogs to accomplish your goals.
I also understand the "loyalty" issue...I flew "A land" my entire time in every flavor of AW and Knight for the vast majority of my time in AH...but many seem to be "piling on" to the "winning" side...those of you really dedicated to flying rook can adapt and the others will migrate...is the plan a great one...probably not...is it something that will work...yup...is there anything better...not that I've seen mentioned...did SOMETHING need to ne done...100% for sure.
One of the few times I agree 100% with HT & Pyro...
Truely one of those "For the good of the game" actions.
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Originally posted by dtango
Phookat:
As if a RL squadron would have their P-51D's pullled to be replaced by their P-51B's? Hmmm.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
Actually many of the pony drivers...including Chuck Yeager...prefered the B pony and argued to keep it. It was considered by many to be the better plane. I believe it lacked the extra fuel tank (behind pilot) that the D pony had (might be wrong here). This is what allowed the implementation of the tactics that eventually won the air war on the western front.
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Originally posted by dtango
As if a RL squadron would have their P-51D's pullled to be replaced by their P-51B's? Hmmm.
AH does not have a rolling planeset, so there is no progression to fall back on or advance to. Without that, each time you take off should be considered it's own sortie, unrelated to any other sortie.
For your argument here to work we would need a rolling planeset, something that would deny you access to the P-51D 80% of the time.
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Later model B's had the fuel tank modifications made in-service. Also the dorsal fin addition made the B's and C's more stable but took away the ability to make some nasty evasive maneuvers.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Karnak - I didn't intend an argument there :). I was just poking fun at the idea that if you take RL scenarios as your frame of playing then your D's probably wouldn't get pulled for B's.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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I worry about this strange concept of country loyalty. I also worry about the idea of people clinging to relationships with people they probably never met and go through the emotional equivalent of a divorce when faced with the possiblity that they may have to play this game with some other unknown voice on the radio. It's flat-out strange!
Some of you guys are simply fu&#ed up! LOLOLOLOL
For cryin'-out-loud, turn off your computer, go out and meet people, create some real relationships and put this game into perspective! If a simple game can torture you this much, seek professional help.
My regards,
Widewing
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Humble -
Sorry I missed your other post. Actually we rarely do the mission thing. We've been accused of being a furball squad by guys who thought they were joining a strat squad.
We're primarily about A2A plain and simple. The teamwork I'm speaking about is at the tactical level - a 2-ship element working in beautiful concert, a 4-ship flight working in harmony with another 4-ship flight etc.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Widewing:
Can't speak for others but I know members of the 412th have met in person from across the country.
I spent 1/2 day with skatsr, skatjr, ringup, and xaqut1 out at in NoCal. Jonnyb and Midnight have visited each other in MA. Midnight & silverhk used to work together and would visit each other. Blckshp & pand & others hooked up in Tennesse somewhere. Blckshp and I met in Dallas while he was on tour and we visited HTC together. These are just a couple of examples.
None of us knew each other until we met online. But we've developed great friendships along the way. Not sure what's so bad about choosing the friends you have because you have the same values and some pretty specific interests that are alike.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by dtango
Widewing:
Can't speak for others but I know members of the 412th have met in person from across the country.
I spent 1/2 day with skatsr, skatjr, ringup, and xaqut1 out at in NoCal. Jonnyb and Midnight have visited each other in MA. Midnight & silverhk used to work together and would visit each other. Blckshp & pand & others hooked up in Tennesse somewhere. Blckshp and I met in Dallas while he was on tour and we visited HTC together. These are just a couple of examples.
None of us knew each other until we met online. But we've developed great friendships along the way. Not sure what's so bad about choosing the friends you have because you have the same values and some pretty specific interests that are alike.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
There's nothing wrong with having real friends and enjoying a hobby together. I'm referring to guys who have never met their countrymates, who in many instances fly 200+ hours a month and have developed an unhealthy mindset towards what REALLY IS and REALLY ISN'T important. This is recreation. If becomes a genuine lifestyle and demonstrates unhealthy emotional attachments, then a real problem exists for these people. Unfortunately, there seems to be quite a few that exhibit this behavior, as seen in the MA or on this BBS. Clearly, what you guys did was turn off the computer, get together and create real relationships and use the game to share your hobby. That's the way it should be. You have brought reality into a virtual world, these others have made a virtual world their reality. And, that's why they can't cope well with changes because in their minds, their reality has changed.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by dtango
Phookat:
As if a RL squadron would have their P-51D's pullled to be replaced by their P-51B's? Hmmm.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
I agree with Widewing on this one dtango--problem here is a lot of people are forgetting it's a game.
I don't agree with taking players rides---just think we could give it an honest effort for a month before coming to the BBS and condeming it.
Might be folks will enjoy variety more than they thot possible
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Originally posted by hitech
Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.
Try come up with an idea that does the following.
1. Moves people to the other side.
This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.
HiTech
Its not side-balancing that we need, its base-balancing.
Last night Rooks were in the crapper, getting hammered on the west by Knights and north by Bish. Bish were knock-knock-knocking on our main island and already had stolen our carrier on the northern port. Knights were fighting to get our barrier island on the west. We had some bases leading towards furball island that we were using to launch defensive sweeps.
So when the Rook squads started logging on for their ops, the first order of business was to give us some breathing room base-wise.
But wait! That horrible side-evener program wouldn't let us work with 163s, 262s, and P-51Ds! It was open season on Rook HQ for the big heavies and Arados.
Seems to me that limiting the planeset just makes it harder to defend when you're on the ropes.
edit: and another thing, this would be a good time to introduce the Malcolm Hood to the P-51B. You know, to ease the complaints about not having the visibility that the P-51D provides.
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Originally posted by dtango
Phookat:
As if a RL squadron would have their P-51D's pullled to be replaced by their P-51B's? Hmmm.
If they did, would they quit? For that matter, as someone else said, if the had to change from 51Bs to 51Ds and they didn't like it...would they quit?
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Originally posted by Widewing
...and have developed an unhealthy mindset towards what REALLY IS and REALLY ISN'T important. This is recreation.
Good ! That's settled.
Now we can go back to the way AH worked before the patch
:D
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Originally posted by Cobra412
I flew with the Bish for a year straight and from day one alot of the Bish belittled you, were rude, and had absolutely nothing good to say at all except for their own squad mates. Maybe if one day Bish could learn to be a little more respectful then folks would fly there. There are alot of good guys on Bish but for the most part they get what they deserve when folks leave. If you treat your countrymen like watermelon on a daily basis then your bound to have them leave. I wouldn't be surprised if half the new folks that come on also leave or change sides because of this. Who wants to deal with folks that give you sarcastic remarks for anything you ask? It's pretty bad when you want to mute your own country channel because of how rude folks are.
This carte blanche statement is typical stereo typing. How could you possibly say that "Alot" of Bishop are rude? When people join they are randomly given a country. Many decide to stay and some leave. Rude people don't just choose to hang out in Bishland.
I have played this game for only approx 2 years most of which as a bishop and I certainly do not share your opinion. I have flown with many of the Bish and this just does not happen regularly, as you suggest.
Acetnt
P.S. I do not care which country I fly for and I actually like early war planes
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Originally posted by JB42
It really comes down to this, for some reason more people CHOOSE to fly Rooks. Whether it be for the numbers advantge or because perhaps flying for Knights and Bish is not as much their cup of tea. Regardless the reason, HiTech has decidied to penalize us for this.
I think the only way to solve the numbers imbalance is get the Bish/Knits to make flying for their "country" more inticing.
Its obvious that droves of players from the Knights and the Bishops have no problem country switching or leaving without any hesitation. I and many other Rooks, in contrast, have no desire to leave Rooks.
But hey, its the 21st century, lets put the blame where it really belongs. Knights and Bish cannot keep up with the numbers of the Rooks, so it must be the Rooks fault, penalize the Rooks.
Now this was no surprise. Consider the source. :rolleyes:
Geezuz - the kids and the newbs are always gonna join the big numbers. Is it any surprise I quit this?:rolleyes:
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While I still dont agree with the new fix, and my initial reaction to bishland was pretty crappy, there was a plus side. Some folks that I didnt figure I would like at all turned out to be not to bad. There were also some that were jerks (and I figured they would be). The bish do have a method to thier madness, its not the same as I am used to, but a strategy nontheless. Im not going to comment on what I think is wrong because it is just a diference in tactics between bish and rooks. I did however fly with some folks at A28 and at A9-A10 that were not only good sticks but seemed to be pretty decent folks in general. The two 367 guys and 2 others at 28 (sorry cant remember the prefix) were flyin hard and doing well at controlling the tempo of the fight. Check 6s were given on time and butts were cleared quickly, I enjoyed that fight immensly many nit 38s and 190s perished. I am going to fly for the bish for a couple hours tonight before I change back to rook (regardless of numbers), and changing back has nothing to do with the people there, it has more to do with the difference in battle tactics between the 2 teams. All in all the experience wasnt bad but I probably wont switch again without my squad.
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Originally posted by dtango
Humble -
Sorry I missed your other post. Actually we rarely do the mission thing. We've been accused of being a furball squad by guys who thought they were joining a strat squad.
We're primarily about A2A plain and simple. The teamwork I'm speaking about is at the tactical level - a 2-ship element working in beautiful concert, a 4-ship flight working in harmony with another 4-ship flight etc.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
So, what's wrong with the p-51B then, If it's not a JABO issue?
--Peregrine.
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Originally posted by Hyrax81st
I know ! Give perk CREDITS for moving to the other side. That way you are REWARDING someone for moving rather than PUNISHING someone for staying !
Punt for Hightech. !!!!
Not a bad Idea, I like that one.
After all it sort of looks like we're cutting our own throats with all this whining.
So far we lost the fuel strats and now we have penalties for having numbers. What's next ?
We still have unresolved issues, like trees that don't die and Tigers that get whacked with one hit from a panzer. This is the kind of stuff that may or may not make the game better.
I'm sure we could debate all that stuff, but the point is that were not making the game better. It seems were just getting our selves back against a wall.
That's why I like his Idea of Rewarding a person to move when the numbers are inbalanced and the war has NOT been won. Then it's that persons choice, and your not punishing a person who doesn't want to switch all the time and likes the squad and country his on. I feel it's a bad idea to punish folks. I'm sure we have allot of loners in this game that could benefit from this system..
I may be wrong but this may be less painfull.
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Ace well what you may consider rude and what I do may be two different things. As I said before there are alot of good folks on Bish but there are also alot of jerks too. I won't post names or squads but one thing I can say is I've never had an issue with any of the 367th guys.
I know who I can fly with and be comfortable that they won't treat me like watermelon even though I'm a newbie and may make mistakes on the Bish side. I also know who I wouldn't trust to turn my back on for one second either. Sit back sometime and just watch how many smart arse comments come out on country channel. Watch and see just how often a new guys comes on and are basically pushed to the side and basically told to shutup. Something that would have taken them less than a few seconds to reply to they instead waste more time being a jerk. Guess I just have a different view on what the relationship between countrymen should be like.
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Ahhhhh, jdpete!!!! I think you are on the verge of it all!! Funny how you can have some knock down, drag out verbal wars on the channels, then switch countries and that same guy ends up being the best wingman you ever had....or laughs and welcomes you to their side.
This is the crux of my whole point in all of this. Not everyone has the benefit of having been around with Dale and crew since the Warbird days, but those of us who have haven't totally forgotten (although it seems many have).
I highly encourage folks to change around and get to know the other folks. You might be pleasantly surprised.
I honestly believe the current "issues" we are experiencing with the "numbers" arguement is directly due to pilots galvanizing themselves to one country. All you ever experience of the "other" pilots is shooting them down or getting shot down and the ensuing babble on channel 200...usually a knee jerk reaction of frustration. I'm as guilty as anyone else, but the difference is, I switch to that country a week later and end up flying WITH those guys and we have a good laugh.
As far as rude people, well, I look at it this way:
1. There will always be rude people, no matter where you go or what you do. These folks are discovered rather quickly and the .squelch command works great.
2. Being thin-skinned is not a particularly endearing trait for a fighter pilot :-)
3. MOST people on AH are pretty decent and if you take the time to go fly WITH them, you'd find that out.
Do I agree with everything in AH, or the way Dale has everything running? Not at all, but I don't blame the players in the game for that and I don't hold a grudge over it.
It is no one person's fault that the rooks consistently have high numbers. The current problems we face are our own fault as a group. We have brought it upon ourselves through our actions (or lack there of).
In particular, I feel the biggest culprit in our numbers issue is loyalty to one team. To me (i.e. this is my opinion, I am not stating this as fact), it is silly when someone calls you a traitor for switching teams, it is silly when someone tries to bring the notion of "honor" into a video game (ex: shooting parachutes). It matters none, the shooter gets no credit and the pilot under the chute loses nothing...at least nothing that really matters.
It's a game. Unfortunately, we have allowed an "us vs them" attitude to rule the day and all that is done in the name of the game. If you ask me, a SMART pilot will change countries and LEARN how it is that one particular pilot that always seems to kill them flies. LEARN his tactics and you learn how to defend against it.
I can honestly say that the game was much more challenging and enjoyable when we had the squads rotating around. The skill sets were varied. The challenges made you think instead of react to a pavlovian stimulus response.
However, I can not speak for the folks that are looking for the quick, easy kill without regard for a challenge. If you get your kicks by whooping up on people with 3:1 odds, well, that's your gig I guess. At the same time, there are very few people in the game that can fly lone wolf and expect to come out ahead. We experience some of this when we consistently get the furballers at A44 who seemingly ignore all logic and strategy to the detriment of our country as a whole. Well, what can you say? Winning the war isn't their agenda...should it be? Certainly it can be argued that the "goal" of the game was designed to "winning the war", but on the whole, the game is so varied and offers so many aspects, you can't really belittle someone for enjoying any one of those aspects and concentrating on it. I'm sure all of us "war winners" are just as "annoying" to the furballers as they are to us. Either way, that's getting off the subject.
I really, really believe that what we need is some plain old team rotating and general mixing of the pilots. As mentioned, we are a community, but we have holed ourselves up on one team or another and refusing to budge. This has generated a built-in animosity factor that has resulted in what we see now.
I wonder, when folks go to the con (not having been to one myself yet), does everyone divide up into seperate corners based on the team you fly for and refuse to interact with the others? I really don't think so, so why do we do it in the game???
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The real question I ask myself about all this B.S. is "why now"?
The reason I ask this is because our squad was Rook when Rooks were in the same boat as the Knights are now. We moved to AH 2.5 years ago and just by the luck of the draw ended up Rooks because the first squaddie that tested the game out started as a Rook. The Rooks we were HUGELY outnumbered on a full time basis for the first year the 81st was here. I don't remember HiTech changing the rules to even out the sides then, do any of you?
What I do remember was a group of Rook CO's getting together and coming up with a way to try to fight the numbers problems with a tactic of teamwork and goodwill, thus the RJO's. HUGE kudos to GhostDancer, BFD and the rest of the RJO founders for having the foresight and perseverance to try to coordinate this. This wasn't just an organization to help fight the hordes but was also working behind the scenes to foster a better attitude of Rook toward Rook to make Rookland a more appealing country to be a part of. Everyone worked to keep things polite, courteous and congratulatory between Rooks whenever possible. This obviously worked and I believe that the majority of squads that moved here in the last 1.5 years did so because of a better country attitude than what they currently had.
Rooks changed their fortunes with hard work, perseverance and a good attitude and I for one find HiTech’s meddling more than a little out of line due to the fact nothing was done by him in the past when the shoe was on the other foot.
The whiners that started all this rolling should maybe look at cleaning up their own house rather than having the management change the rules to suit their need.
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If they did, would they quit? For that matter, as someone else said, if the had to change from 51Bs to 51Ds and they didn't like it...would they quit?
Phookat- Quitting was not an option but they sure complained about it like humble said :p.
So, what's wrong with the p-51B then, If it's not a JABO issue?
Peregrin (Pippin? :) ) - for me personally their's nothing wrong with the P-51B. It has a low ENY which indicates to me that HTC thinks that it's harder to get kills in which is certainly true for me. Given the choice I would fly the P-51D- (a) I get more kills in it, (b) the bubble canopy P-51 is the quintisential Mustang to me, but I'm happy to fly the P-51B if that's what's available.
My concern is the impact that frequent country switching will have on squad cohesion - not what Warp is talking about but a proverbial dog chasing the tail syndrome as a result of the short-term numbers spiking over a 1-3 hour period that leaves squad mates stranded in different countries. Some safeguards to squad cohesion would improve the current system in my view.
That doesn't invalidate others' preferences in plane. For those who want to fly the P-51D who knows the myriad of reasons they may have? The issue is they have their reasons and are faced with a dilemma they don't think is fair- wrong, right, or indifferent. Brow-beating them or denying that their dilemma is invalid isn't going to change minds. Helping to answer the WIIFM (what's-in-it-for-me) question for them will help.
Good grief, I'm rambling now :P.
Warp - great post!
I'm actually for system semi-random auto-side-balancing countries at the start of each new map if it could be done by squads as well as individuals. This could be as simple or as sophisticated as HTC would want to implement (e.g. just based on subscribed base to decisions made based on actual trend analysis). Heck I would even be happy to manually move a squadron upon request for the good of the community if that's what it takes. To address short term fluctuation in numbers I would try applying the simple rule of not being able to switch to any country with the higher (not just the highest) numbers and trust the auto-side-balancing to even things out over the longer term.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by DEMAN
The real question I ask myself about all this B.S. is "why now"?
The reason I ask this is because our squad was Rook when Rooks were in the same boat as the Knights are now. We moved to AH 2.5 years ago and just by the luck of the draw ended up Rooks because the first squaddie that tested the game out started as a Rook. The Rooks we were HUGELY outnumbered on a full time basis for the first year the 81st was here. I don't remember HiTech changing the rules to even out the sides then, do any of you?
What I do remember was a group of Rook CO's getting together and coming up with a way to try to fight the numbers problems with a tactic of teamwork and goodwill, thus the RJO's. HUGE kudos to GhostDancer, BFD and the rest of the RJO founders for having the foresight and perseverance to try to coordinate this. This wasn't just an organization to help fight the hordes but was also working behind the scenes to foster a better attitude of Rook toward Rook to make Rookland a more appealing country to be a part of. Everyone worked to keep things polite, courteous and congratulatory between Rooks whenever possible. This obviously worked and I believe that the majority of squads that moved here in the last 1.5 years did so because of a better country attitude than what they currently had.
Rooks changed their fortunes with hard work, perseverance and a good attitude and I for one find HiTech’s meddling more than a little out of line due to the fact nothing was done by him in the past when the shoe was on the other foot.
The whiners that started all this rolling should maybe look at cleaning up their own house rather than having the management change the rules to suit their need.
DEMAN,
I've been here for alot longer than 2 1/2 years and the rooks were never outnumbered as badly as you think they were. Although they certainly have spent their share of time at the bottom of the ladder. I certainly can't fault your logic with regard to the RJO's. The response from many (including me) was to stop switching and fly Knight...easily the most consistantly outnumbered over the last 18 months. We had our moments but for the most part we were constantly on the short side of the equation where the meat met the metal.
The bottom line is really simple, for whatever reason the "balance of power" stabalized at a point that left the arena unbalanced on a regular basis and has obviously had some kind of significantly detrimental effect that can be tracked statistically....otherwise these changes would not have been implemented.
The actions undertaken were not aimed at the ROOKS, they were aimed at the imbalance. Truthfully I'm amazed that HT & crew stepped up to the plate on this one. In the end the game will be better off. I'm sure that they will evaluate the effect and tweak it as needed but it's a start in the right direction.
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Originally posted by hitech
Midnight: Since you conseed side balance is needed.
Try come up with an idea that does the following.
1. Moves people to the other side.
This is the basic issue, I have herd lots of ideas but most that I have seen are always made to "Not impact me". So they were basicly saying for this small penalty I still won't change countries and still get to fly the way I want. Well that dosn't acomplish the thing you agreed needed to be solved.
HiTech
Instead of penalty perhaps try reward? Like, reward people and/or squads for making a switch when you want them to.
I know its been discussed that perk price adjustments haven't worked, but has it been discussed what it might mean if a perk point award for country switching to the smallest side were implemented? Maybe that would cause some people to go "Hey! Free perks for switching! Let's go!"? :)
Second question, how about thinking outside the box - what if the numbers balance wasn't really that critical? What if people in an outnumbered country could always play even when being ganged?
Or...in other words....
Is it really necessary for the gameplay model to include being able to completely wipe out a country? Wouldn't a safe haven for each country give those complaining about not being able to fly what they need?
Is it really such a big deal for one country to have more people than the others, or is it the ability of that country to pin another in a corner and CAP their butts that's the real problem here?
I realize this isn't the exact input being asked for, but it is a way to address the core problem, which is people having a hard time being able to fly, without penalizing anyone or forcing anyone to switch sides. Perhaps its worth considering?
Just for what its worth! :)
culero
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Think your missing one important point Humble -
When the Rook were outnumbered a lot of Bish and Knit squads swapped to Rooks to balance thing out.
This was done voluntarily without being asked/forced because it was in the best interests of the game, and the COMMUNITY as a whole.
The reverse hasn't happened.
Thus the current situation.
We started Knit, went Rook when they were outnumbered, when Rook numbers grew, we went to Bish who were the lowest numbers.
We created it, we didn't fix it (like in the past) as we should have.
Would be interested to hear from other Knit/Bish squads who went Rook to help them out.
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Our squad has flown Rook since it moved to AH. We have developed relationships and teamwork with other squads in our country. This adds significant value to the game for me. I believe others feel the same. Changing countries is not that simple. I am not whining about the system change, just saying that changing countries is not just about me or my squad.
All I can hope for I guess it that a lot of "unattached" or lone ranger pilots who don't really care will change countries so that the the squads who want to stay and maintain our history will not have to do so. If not I suppose we will have to endure whatever changes are made until balance is achieved. I can say for sure that if we were (and we were for a looong time) the undernumbered country we still would not change sides. Because it's just not that simple. On the other hand if a short term switch to another country would help we might try it but I'm not thinking that will do it.
I understand the delima. I hope over time it works out so that those of us who enjoy the team building and relationship aspect of the game as much if not more than the fight itself can get on with enjoying the game sans launch delays or planes we can't fly or changing countries or whatever controls are deemed necessary.
Whatever it takes we'll stick it out until it gets resolved and try to help make it work.
:)
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WTG VolsCAF - The voice of sensibility from a Rook. Not a hint of a whine, just a we'll stick it out and make it work.
I think it may already be working.
Bish have picked up a lot newbies recently, and some former Rookies.
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Originally posted by VolsCAF
Our squad has flown Rook since it moved to AH. We have developed relationships and teamwork with other squads in our country. This adds significant value to the game for me. I believe others feel the same. Changing countries is not that simple. I am not whining about the system change, just saying that changing countries is not just about me or my squad.
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First Vols, this isn't to you or the CAF guys, I'm just responding to this sentiment that others have expressed about developing teamwork/relationships with other squads in a country.
All of you that have expressed this...You dont think back when other squads from the Bish's and Knit's switched to Rooks to help balance things didnt have this too???
They did but made the move anyway...
Besides it's fun as all heck to shoot down an ole buddy :)