Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on August 16, 2004, 04:21:01 PM
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Very simple.
Kerry left Vietnam only 4 months into his tour after 3 Purple Hearts for what were undisputedly very light injuries.
Of course this was his right to ask to leave according to US navy policies.
But my question is how do you feel about him leaving behind his men and his comrades so early when he was still able to fight and in no way impaired by his light injuries.
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i would call that a leading question grunherz :)
ill leave it to the "vets" now
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I think that if I was in VN and had a chance to leave I would take it.
Don't really shiv a get what kerry did/does though. Does that make my answer invalid?
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Sounds like a smart decision to me...of course, I'm not a veteran.
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Ok, I'll sorta field this one.
I was in Kuwait for the second Gulf War as some of you know. Don't know if I will go back or not anytime soon, there are rumbles but nothing positive on the horizon. That's life, it's the life I chose.
Anyway I don't really fault him for leaving after four months. If his wounds and his awards are legitimate (and there is some cause to question that) then I don't fault him at all. Getting hurt three times in a four month period, getting a Silver and Bronze Star with valor for combat and such probably would warrent a trip home. I wouldn't fault him for taking the ticket home, that much action and that many close calls would scare the crud out of me and I probably wouldn't want to stick around for the next eight myself.
If he scammed the system, using dubious injuries and fabricating after action reports to inflate his combat record, then I am very upset with him. To do so would be a slap at the face of every soldier that was injured legitimately in the conflict. I honestly cannot be totally sure what happened there. I am hearing some very contradictory stuff concerning his war record over there. Do I believe a senior senator and his supporters or do I believe a bunch of swift boat vets, most of them highly decorated and honorable, who say the exact opposite.
To be honest, until recently I have given Senator Kerry something of the benefit of the doubt. Yes I am a conservative Republican by nature but I still gave him the benefit of the doubt. I tend to be more and more dubious of his war record the more I find that stuff is fabricated. His whole Cambodia thing is starting to crack the belief that I had in his truthfulness. It is obvious that he lied about his exploits in that country (Christmas in 1968). Making an inflammatory statement like he did concerning was was essentially an illegal operation only to find it didn't happen casts doubts on the rest of his record.
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I don't fault him for leaving. I don't fault anyone for legally avoiding combat. It's an individual choice.
If the accusations that he faked injuries to bail are true, though, that speaks volumes in my opinion.
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G.I. Joe is a fake
Veterans group says military hero lied about his record; claims evil villains escaped his clutches during war against Cobra.
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By Dan Kois
Aug. 14, 2004 | WASHINGTON -- As G.I. Joe, the leader of America's daring, highly trained special missions force, celebrates his 40th anniversary this summer, a group of veterans has aired television advertisements attacking his military record. The ads, purchased by G.I. Joe Veterans for Truth, accuse Joe of lying about his war record and letting villains escape throughout the 1985-86 war against Cobra, Destro and the forces of evil.
In one 60-second ad, veterans of the two-year-long, completely televised war -- in which every weekday afternoon American troops fought Cobra, a ruthless terrorist organization determined to rule the world -- speak out about G.I. Joe. "I served with G.I. Joe," says one veteran, Thomas Ross. "G.I. Joe is no real American hero."
In interviews yesterday arranged by G.I. Joe Veterans for Truth, a nonprofit arm of a little-known think tank called Serpentine Enterprises, the veterans -- low-level G.I. Joe foot soldiers, all code-named "grunts" -- were unanimous in describing Joe as an incompetent leader unfit for command and not worthy of honor. Rogers, a blue laser gunner 1st class, described the ordeal he was put through during the celebrated incident in which the entire male leadership of the Joe team was hypnotized by the Baroness and her Conch of the Sirens.
"Our entire platoon was ordered to attack Cobra base just to free all these addlepated G.I. Joes," Robertson said. "We risked our lives to save the Joes -- not the other way around." During the pitched battle, Robertson disarmed and captured three Cobra soldiers by shooting a nearby tree with his blue laser gun, causing the tree to fall on the enemy, trapping them. "I was dodging red lasers left and right," Robertson added. "G.I. Joe said he'll fight for freedom wherever there's trouble. That was a lie."
Another veteran, G.I. Joe Air Combat pilot Matthew Albers, noted that his squad was called in as air support when G.I. Joe allowed Cobra to take over Fort Knox. "This Zartan fellow disguised himself as the general in charge of the fort," Albers said, "and G.I. Joe was completely fooled. We had to scramble a dozen planes to attack a United States Army base, just because Joe couldn't see through a dime-store mask."
Albers' F-14 was shot down by a Cobra red laser cannon; the pilot and co-pilot had only seconds to eject and parachute to safety before the plane exploded. "Luckily," said Albers, "we escaped with only minor injuries."
His eyes misted up as he recalled the carnage that terrible day. "Eleven American soldiers suffered minor injuries at Fort Knox," he said. "Was it worth it?"
After G.I. Joe retook Fort Knox, Albers added, every major Cobra officer escaped, including Zartan, Buzzer, Maj. Bludd, and Cobra Commander. "Didn't catch a one. We heard them cursing Joe's name, but they drove away in a Hiss tank. Is that never giving up or staying till the fight's won?" he asked. "No, it isn't."
In a press conference today, the public faces of G.I. Joe -- Hawk, Lady Jaye, Flint and Sgt. Slaughter -- assembled outside G.I. Joe headquarters. They were flanked by much of the Joe team, including the mysterious ninja Storm Shadow, silent and brooding, and the Native American tracker Spirit, feeding mice to his eagle Freedom in a dignified manner. (Joe himself resides in seclusion; the few glimpses the public has been offered suggest he is a giant of a man, up to four times as tall as the rest of his soldiers.)
"None of the grunts were present for G.I. Joe organizational meetings," Flint said. "We're grateful to them for all they've done for our country, but they simply don't understand the tough choices G.I. Joe has had to make to keep America safe over the past 40 years. He kept Cobra Commander from carving his face on the moon with a giant laser. He shut down Destro's Texas dude ranch. He stopped the Crimson Guard from replacing all the world's money with Cobra currency. G.I. Joe was there."
Asked about the number of times G.I. Joe let major international terrorists escape, Flint scoffed. "Let them escape? No way. These guys have escape plans, jet packs, submarines constantly at the ready. We're just trying to foil their plans while keeping all our men safe. That's why the 1985-86 Cobra war was the only war ever fought by U.S. troops in which no American or enemy soldiers died."
Flint stepped back as Sgt. Slaughter took the microphone, shouting that two of the veterans in the TV ad bought by G.I. Joe Veterans for Truth were obviously Crimson Commander twins Tomax and Xamot in disguise. Lady Jaye came to the microphone and gently dismissed Slaughter's accusation. "We are, however, worried that the ads might be secretly funded by Cobra," Jaye added. "You reporters should remember that politically motivated advertisements aren't always what they seem. Often, back in the shadows, the people pulling the strings might not be interested in telling the truth."
The reporters at the press conference, surprised, smiled and clapped each other on the back. "Now we know," said Rick Atkinson, a correspondent for the Washington Post.
"And knowing," said Lady Jaye, "is half the battle."
salon.com
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VERY leading question Grun. I say you let me blast a few mines and RPG's very close while spraying you with an AK-47. Let's do this for 4 months in a row and if you have a "few minor" injuries we'll discuss it then.
As long as we are throwing hypotheticals around... what do you thing of a man that used his father's considerable political pull to dodge the draft and get a very coveted Air National Guard stateside post, then wandered off without fulfilling that cushy committment?
Looks like one guy had the guts, the other had the connections.
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His second tour. He did one at sea.
What do I think about it? I thinks you protest to much. Thats what I think.
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Originally posted by Pongo
His second tour. He did one at sea.
What do I think about it? I thinks you protest to much. Thats what I think.
That's not a tour, it's a cruise, and he spent most of it in Australia and the phillipines.
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Are you considering military service grun? Maybe you should drop this subject until you figure out why I'd even ask that question in this thread.
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as a vet I dont fault him but I would also say that doesnt make one a shining example.
OTOH,
I've read that most of his fellow swift boat commanders...you know the ones that SERVED with him basically asked him to leave because they were sick of him. But hay there just veitnam vets and we have a presidential election coming up so what does that matter.
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He did his time and he went home. Happens all the time.
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Originally posted by Sandman
He did his time and he went home. Happens all the time.
Yep, 'cept his story has changed a few times...
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Thats how you become a veteran. In war its the coward who survives.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Yep, 'cept his story has changed a few times...
That wasn't the question. :p
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Originally posted by Sandman
That wasn't the question. :p
No, it wasn't...but it certainly is "the answer"(to that of character)...;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
No, it wasn't...but it certainly is "the answer"(to that of character)...;)
Let's not bring character into it. Your boy isn't any better in this regard.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Let's not bring character into it. Your boy isn't any better in this regard.
Why doesn't Kerry focus on his 20 years in congress for his campaign rather than his military service?
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Originally posted by Maniac
Thats how you become a veteran. In war its the coward who survives.
Were you born a ****** Idiot or are you still in training???
Veterans are Surviors Assswipe!
Are you trying to say that the Surviors are NOT veterans but just Cowards???
BTW did you serve anywhere pisssant?
Sheesh See what the offspring of the 60's brought on? Woodstock mud babies with muddy minds!
Heehee Wood Stock was great.
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Originally posted by Maniac
Thats how you become a veteran. In war its the coward who survives.
Is this a language/translation thing or do you really mean surviving veterans are cowards?
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Originally posted by AWMac
Were you born a ****** Idiot or are you still in training???
Veterans are Surviors Assswipe!
Are you trying to say that the Surviors are NOT veterans but just Cowards???
BTW did you serve anywhere pisssant?
Sheesh See what the offspring of the 60's brought on? Woodstock mud babies with muddy minds!
Heehee Wood Stock was great.
He's finnish. Don't judge all Fins by his posts.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Why doesn't Kerry focus on his 20 years in congress for his campaign rather than his military service?
You'll have to ask him.
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Originally posted by Sandman
You'll have to ask him.
I see you're avoiding answering for him, any particular reason why? :p
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Chit I served my Country for 20 years and I'm not a Senator... But Ted Kennedy can kill and still serve, biggest drunk in the Senate!
Kerry served in Nam 4 Months, 12 days...no limp.... notice how his brag of the Bronze Star now is a Silver Star?
And the Sheep will follow..... You poor Bastages...Kerry will damm you all just for his profits.
:rofl
Hmmm gotta work on the golf swing...I beat the Walrus once, Craig in '75...Ft Gordon..by 1 shot. He was pissd.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I see you're avoiding answering for him, any particular reason why? :p
My name is not John Kerry, perhaps? :p
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Why doesn't Kerry focus on his 20 years in congress for his campaign rather than his military service?
Because you are at war? and the population demands that their leader has to have a military background?
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Originally posted by Martlet
That's not a tour, it's a cruise, and he spent most of it in Australia and the phillipines.
He was in the military and it was a "tour" as described in those times (13 months) you congenital idiot.
I'd like you to say that to the guys who deployed during desert storm and only "stayed on the ship" in the IO.
h
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I think we ought to talk about Bush's 20 years in congress also.
You start.
Oh- wait... hmmm...seems the first real job he had was Governor and it cost a pretty penny.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Very simple.
Kerry left Vietnam only 4 months into his tour after 3 Purple Hearts for what were undisputedly very light injuries.
Of course this was his right to ask to leave according to US navy policies.
But my question is how do you feel about him leaving behind his men and his comrades so early when he was still able to fight and in no way impaired by his light injuries.
It's very simple:
How would you, verterans, feel, about guy who uses his rich daddy to avoid service in danger zone, goes AWOL, and then prances around in flight suit like a fighter pilot ???
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Originally posted by rpm371
VERY leading question Grun. I say you let me blast a few mines and RPG's very close while spraying you with an AK-47. Let's do this for 4 months in a row and if you have a "few minor" injuries we'll discuss it then.
As long as we are throwing hypotheticals around... what do you thing of a man that used his father's considerable political pull to dodge the draft and get a very coveted Air National Guard stateside post, then wandered off without fulfilling that cushy committment?
Looks like one guy had the guts, the other had the connections.
I'd say he was smart.
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Originally posted by SOB
Sounds like a smart decision to me...of course, I'm not a veteran.
Though not as smart as getting daddy to keep you in the US flying Jets in the weekends.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by fd ski
It's very simple:
How would you, verterans, feel, about guy who uses his rich daddy to avoid service in danger zone, goes AWOL, and then prances around in flight suit like a fighter pilot ???
More charges of AWOL? Could you post a link to the NJP procedings?
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Originally posted by Maniac
Thats how you become a veteran. In war its the coward who survives.
This doesn't deserve a comment except for FU!
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Lars, I'm assuming Maniac's comment loses something in the translation.
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Originally posted by AWMac
Kerry served in Nam 4 Months, 12 days...no limp.... notice how his brag of the Bronze Star now is a Silver Star?
He earned both....infact, Zummy wanted to give him the Navy Cross instead of the Silver Star.
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Originally posted by Airhead
Lars, I'm assuming Maniac's comment loses something in the translation.
I hope so, otherwise he just slammed every combat survivor.
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Originally posted by fd ski
It's very simple:
How would you, verterans, feel, about guy who uses his rich daddy to avoid service in danger zone, goes AWOL, and then prances around in flight suit like a fighter pilot ???
Umm..he was a fighter pilot.
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Gee RPM I didnt know you were a coward, I swear by all I know and believe that never crossed my mind about you. See we do have something in common were both cowards.
Wklink speaks for me.
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Originally posted by rpm371
to dodge the draft and get a very coveted Air National Guard stateside post,
Joining the Guard is "dodging the draft"?
Do you reread before you hit "submit"?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Very simple.
Kerry left Vietnam only 4 months into his tour after 3 Purple Hearts for what were undisputedly very light injuries.
Of course this was his right to ask to leave according to US navy policies.
But my question is how do you feel about him leaving behind his men and his comrades so early when he was still able to fight and in no way impaired by his light injuries.
I was drafted in 69.
I have absolutely no issue with his going home when he had the opportunity. Many were given purple hearts for the same kind of wounds and less. Its a non issue.
I also have no issue with Bush for taking the easier way out.
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Originally posted by fd ski
It's very simple:
How would you, verterans, feel, about guy who uses his rich daddy to avoid service in danger zone, goes AWOL, and then prances around in flight suit like a fighter pilot ???
I guess if he was a fighter pilot, I could care less. Of course
your view of GW's service and mine vary greatly. Bet you didn't
know that fighter pilots rarely determine where they serve, no
matter who their daddy was/is.
Of course you attribute amazing foreknowledge to GW's
commanders in determining that both he and his father would
become CinC in the future. I bet Cousin Cleo wishes she had
these guys on her staff.
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Originally posted by Toad
Joining the Guard is "dodging the draft"?
Do you reread before you hit "submit"?
Why yes I do.
As Colin Powell wrote in his autobiography: "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed ... managed to wrangle slots in Reserve and National Guard units ... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all Americans are created equal ..."
If you think Bush was a warrior, you have your head buried deeply in the sand.
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From now on, if I want to get some information about Bush, I'll just ask a question about Kerry. So, how does one get someone to answer a question about *Kerry* without "Bush" being the answer? :confused:
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Originally posted by rpm371
If you think Bush was a warrior, you have your head buried deeply in the sand.
If you think serving in the Guard is dodging the draft, you have your head buried deeply up your posterior. I'll wager there's lots of Guardsmen from WW2 onward that would cheerfully help you keep it there.
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Originally posted by Toad
If you think serving in the Guard is dodging the draft, you have your head buried deeply up your posterior. I'll wager there's lots of Guardsmen from WW2 onward that would cheerfully help you keep it there.
I agree.
Btw, missing a "weekend drill" happens all of the time in the Guard. That is what Bush was being accused of.
But since I own a handgun, Kerry isn't getting my vote.
Karaya
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Originally posted by Toad
If you think serving in the Guard is dodging the draft, you have your head buried deeply up your posterior. I'll wager there's lots of Guardsmen from WW2 onward that would cheerfully help you keep it there.
Guard isn't dodging the draft but it's certinly the easy ticket out. You can't argue that.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Guard isn't dodging the draft but it's certinly the easy ticket out. You can't argue that.
...-Gixer
heard a larger percentage of would-be pilots were killed learning to fly jets than the percentage of swift boat ppl in country were killed during the same time period ....
if true, which took bigger gondolas?
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Originally posted by Gixer
Guard isn't dodging the draft but it's certinly the easy ticket out. You can't argue that.
...-Gixer
I wasn't the one arguing that joining the Guard was dodging the draft. That was RPM that was floating that foolishness.
Easy ticket? I've a dead UPT classmate that didn't make it to graduation. He was a good student too. I'm not sure his wife or the now 30 year old daughter he left behind would view it as an "easy ticket".
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Originally posted by Toad
I wasn't the one arguing that joining the Guard was dodging the draft. That was RPM that was floating that foolishness.
Easy ticket? I've a dead UPT classmate that didn't make it to graduation. He was a good student too. I'm not sure his wife or the now 30 year old daughter he left behind would view it as an "easy ticket".
Sorry to hear about your classmate but one particular instance is as you pointed out is a great loss only to his immediate family, it dosn't make guard duty well actually training seen to be dangerous. The argument as a whole and much wider perspective of course was whether guard duty was dodging the draft, it comes close but not quite.
Would guard duty be scene as a easy ticket out compared to the risk of being shot at. Yes it certinly is.
If you think it is, I guess you could always compare the death ratio of those killed in vietnam to those killed back home in guard duty and see which is seen as the more hazardous.
I'm sure most guys that were depoloyed in Vietnam would rather of done 5 years of guard duty compared to 5 nights in the Jungle.
...-Gixer
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Gixer, you're either really young, or really dumb, or possibly both?
Read up son....
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blarguardhistory.htm
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Originally posted by Silat
I was drafted in 69.
I have absolutely no issue with his going home when he had the opportunity. Many were given purple hearts for the same kind of wounds and less. Its a non issue.
I also have no issue with Bush for taking the easier way out.
Yep Silat was the 2nd Mountie in the Canoe (Canadian Naval Royal Fleet) As 2nd Mountie his reponsibilities were to arm and deploy the Beavers. Flea bites and tail slaps got him 3 Bullwinkles and an easy out. Rich then he decides to run South across the border and seek safe asylum in Portland, OR.
:rofl
MacMAW
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It's odd how the Left has historically celebrated those who avoided Viet Nam service from 1967 up until Clinton's campaigns as being smarter than the dipsticks who had to serve, yet now the Left is lauding Viet Nam service as the proper thing to have done for young men of that generation- to the point of questioning the courage of those who didn't serve. Just sayin- I still bleat my mantra of "Four legs good, two legs bad" and wear my Birkenstocks while dancing to CSN&Y doing our theme song of "Four Dead In O- Hi- O," but sometimes I get confused as I get older.
I need to go shoot guns with Lazs. He explains things to me in language I understand.
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Yep CSN&Y OHIO.....about Kent State, Natl Guards and shooting all around...shame.
:(
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back to the question at hand... im my humble opinion if you are a leader of troops you should be the first one in and the last one out. then again its hard to imagine what situation was facing him at the time. ive seen brass making calls on if a soldier should go home or not. example.. young Specialist was sent home after getting wounded 4 times in Mosul, Iraq. the soldier had no knowledge of the plan to send him home. they didnt want the soldier to get killed over there, would look bad on the home front. he was awarded 3 purple hearts.
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It isn't a matter of "seen to be dangerous"; it was dangerous.
If you screwed up. Done right, like most things, it was safe enough. Done wrong, or worse..... done without a bag full of luck...... it would kill you quick.
I wish all of the nay-sayers and denigraters had a chance to be the only person hanging on to supersonic jet when they were going too fast to stop and too slow to fly while the engine fire lights were brightly illuminating the cockpit on a dark and stormy night.
whether guard duty was dodging the draft, it comes close but not quite
With this statement you come close but not quite to assuming RPM's position with his cranium firmly lodged in his posterior.
Again, you need to review the previous posts; my statements have all been directed at the idea that "guard duty was draft dodging". I've made no value judgement on which was "more dangerous".
I've merely pointed out the idiocy of saying joining the Guard was draft dodging.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Gixer, you're either really young, or really dumb, or possibly both?
Read up son....
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/blarguardhistory.htm
Sorry, which of my comments makes me young,dumb or both? Or the fact that I don't blindly support Bush or what ever he says immediately drops me into that group? LOL
...-Gixer
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By the way I fail to see how that little history lesson on the Guard supports any argument that being in the Guard and the Air Force at that isn't a easier way out then going to Vietnam.
Your trying to justify Bush's Guard duty as being equal or something to those that went to Vietnam? Whats your argument, point?
By the way personal insults just reflect on your intelligence rather then anyone elses.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Toad
I've merely pointed out the idiocy of saying joining the Guard was draft dodging.
I don't think it could be any more clear than that.