Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Raptor on August 16, 2004, 06:58:48 PM
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Ok, I was in H2H in a 1943 RAF vs Luftwaffe setup. I was flying a 109G2 and would come across both a spit5 and 9, So I pulled up to rope them. They both followed me straight up and the Spit5 was able to follow me further straight up. I am not exactly sure on their E states but in several encounters with both spit5 and 9 at co-alt, the spit5 could hang with me longer than the 9. This does not seem right because shouldnt the 9 have more power than 5:confused:
Also... how can such a slow plane like a HURR hang with a 109 in a steep climb. I will have more speed than a hurr at co alt and pull up (from a head on merge). The hurr will do a loop then roll over and follow me pretty far up. I thought something as slow as the hurr wouldnt be able to hold E like that.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
Also... how can such a slow plane like a HURR hang with a 109 in a steep climb.
I was the "HURR" :)
were your flaps extended?
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In AH2 both the Spit V and Spit IX are 1942 aircraft. We don't have the grat climbing 1943 Spit IX that got the Spit IX the reputation of being the best Spitfire of all.
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In AH2 this time, flying spit 9s now require some common sense thinking skills, not flying skills :)
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I wouldnt extend flaps until reaching slow speeds. Flaps slow you down faster and Ive found you can climb higher by waiting to extend flaps until about 50mph above stall
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So I pulled up to rope them. They both followed me straight up and the Spit5 was able to follow me further straight up. I am not exactly sure on their E states but in several encounters with both spit5 and 9 at co-alt, the spit5 could hang with me longer than the 9. This does not seem right because shouldnt the 9 have more power than 5
All the spits seem to zoom climb way too good. I had a Spit IX go H2H with my 190A8. I pulled up, he turned 180, then zoomed up above me and got a shot in.
Kind of unrealistic, especially when zoom climb is basically Weight/drag. The heavier the better at speed = inertia. The Spitfire is a very light plane with more drag than the 190.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
All the spits seem to zoom climb way too good. I had a Spit IX go H2H with my 190A8. I pulled up, he turned 180, then zoomed up above me and got a shot in.
Kind of unrealistic, especially when zoom climb is basically Weight/drag. The heavier the better at speed = inertia. The Spitfire is a very light plane with more drag than the 190.
Crumpp
what's your alt when you were fighting the spit IX? if you were above 15K +, you're "owned" ;)
The Spitfire is a very light plane with more drag than the 190
of course the 190 has higher drag than the spit, take a look at the radial engine ;) If you do not agree, i would love to see the "data"
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http://www.anycities.com/user/j22/j22/aero.htm
It's down at the bottom.
This is who did the data.
http://www.anycities.com/user/j22/j22/lednicer.htm
This is where he works:
http://www.am-inc.com/
Here is why a 190 should out zoom a Spitfire at ANY co-speed state, It has almost 4 times the potential energy at equal speed:
http://www.av8n.com/how/htm/energy.html#sec-energy-conserved
Since we are about to start comparing these mechanical forms of energy with other forms, we must start paying attention to an additional detail: an object’s potential energy depends not only on its altitude but also on its mass. A 300-ton Boeing at any given altitude has 300 times more potential energy than a 1-ton Piper at the same altitude.
And here is why a Spitfire in a co-energy state trying to DIRECTLY follow a 190 in a sustained climb will be left behind. The FW-190 climbs at a much faster speed but much shallower angle.
The dividing line between the mushing regime and the front side of the power curve is the highest point on the power curve. At this point, the airplane can fly with the minimal amount of dissipation; this is the “low-rent district”. The airspeed where this occurs is called the best-rate-of-climb airspeed and denoted VY.7
Crumpp
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In AH2 both the Spit V and Spit IX are 1942 aircraft. We don't have the grat climbing 1943 Spit IX that got the Spit IX the reputation of being the best Spitfire of all.
By this I assume you're mentioning the 16+ Boost on the Mk.V?
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I'm curious Karnak, just how much performance does this extra +4 amount of boost provide over the AH1 Mk.V? Did you ever do a test on it?
If it is anything significant a difference, then I think it presents a problem when using the Spit5 in scenarios based in 1941.
Maybe HTC should tweak the existing SpitV, clip its wings, give it 16+ boost and set it up as a new variant.. rather then do away with the old +12 Spit5...
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You boring BnZ luftwhiners could be going 600mph+ but as long as the Spit pilot times lead turn / reversal right he will always get chance for the shot.
Also, don't forget .50's and hispano's can hit upwards of 800 - 1,000 yards (pretty much extreme range now i suspect) especially when shooting at a slow-moving-about-to-stall luftwhiner, so even if you do have energy advantage you will need quite a bit to gain that extra 2,400 / 3,000 feet.
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You boring BnZ luftwhiners could be going 600mph +
Actually Furball,
The Energy fight should be a very exciting fight. Just read about Randy Cunningham vs Col. Toon.
At least much more exciting than "lock on their tail and match maneuvers" angle fighting.
Luftwhiners! That seems to be the standard answer when folks have no facts left to present.
Also, don't forget .50's and hispano's can hit upwards of 800 - 1,000 yards (pretty much extreme range now i suspect) especially when shooting at a slow-moving-about-to-stall luftwhiner, so even if you do have energy advantage you will need quite a bit to gain that extra 2,400 / 3,000 feet.
The bullet can go that far, sure. If the gunnery is realistic though good luck hitting. Especially with that Hispano. Ever seen the ballistics? The .50 cal has a better chance of hitting but being a solid slug will lose some it's damage potential in that long flight. If you got wing mounted .50 cals, GOOD LUCK!! Your bullets will be about 30 feet or more to the right or left depending on your convergence. Given dispersion IF your really really lucky you might land A single hit.
Crumpp
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You never zoom straight up and hang on your prop. It’s as much a sucker move as being roped. Even though you are a better climbing plane it all depends on angle and speed. Even then you are only creating a few hundred yards separation over a few thousand feet.
Unless you can read energy states accurately and unless you account for the fact that the trailing plane need not pull inside your climb or follow in pure pursuit (he can "cut the corner") you will get shot down. 50s and Hizookas have much better range and even though they are near stall they can still aim good enough to spray and pray until they fall away.
How you avoid getting shot down is to simply spiral up at a high angle tightening your turn as you climb.
The spit will bleed most of his e trying to get inside of you. As you go up get tighter and tighter he won’t be able to pull lead with out stalling. It takes some experience to get the timing down but usually you will know when to drop the hammer as the spit falls out of the circle.
You don’t want to pull your turn so tight as to bleed all your energy but just tight enough to force the spit to pull lead. Also with the new icons the more lead they pull the less of your icon they will see.
This maneuver even works on a faster plane because initially his speed will force a wider circle. If he's smart he will zoom and yo yo. If he is a dumb arse like 99% of all spit pilots he will bled all his energy trying to follow you up. They can taste the food on their plate but you sit just out of their guns until finally they realize they have lost and try to get out as fast as they can.
This move works in every game from FB to AH, WBs. This is the best way to fly a G-6, F-4 and G-2 in AH. Especially in AH2 as I have seen spits stall and auger into the deck.
Dont waste your time on those links Crump posted. Unless you are taking a course. Most rl stuff doesnt translate to well into the game world.
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I'm sure i read a report between a jug and the spit IX somewhere before.
I'm positive it read something along the lines of- the p47 easily out zooms the spitfire until climbing speed is reached at which point the spitfire quickly gains and passes the p47.
This ring any bells to anyone? anyone recognise this? I'm positive i've read this somewhere.
This means little comparing to the 109 as it climbs well too, but thought it may add to the 190 debate.
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You never zoom straight up and hang on your prop. It’s as much a sucker move as being roped. Even though you are a better climbing plane it all depends on angle and speed. Even then you are only creating a few hundred yards separation over a few thousand feet.
I did not zoom straight up and hang on the prop Wotan.
This move works in every game from FB to AH, WBs. This is the best way to fly a G-6, F-4 and G-2 in AH. Especially in AH2 as I have seen spits stall and auger into the deck.
That was my point. In the Bf-109 you can get into the "Energy" knife fight which is where the 190 should be too. That is what it's designed for, not bore and snore, clumsey passes followed by miles of extenting. That is unrealistic and boring.
Dont waste your time on those links Crump posted. Unless you are taking a course. Most rl stuff doesnt translate to well into the game world.
I thought this game prided itself on realism? Pyro is redoing the FM for the 190 so I wouldn't put words into HTC's mouth just yet.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Crumpp
I did not zoom straight up and hang on the prop Wotan.
That was my point. In the Bf-109 you can get into the "Energy" knife fight which is where the 190 should be too. That is what it's designed for, not bore and snore, clumsey passes followed by miles of extenting. That is unrealistic and boring.
I thought this game prided itself on realism? Pyro is redoing the FM for the 190 so I wouldn't put words into HTC's mouth just yet.
Crumpp
I was replying to the original poster, I have no idea how or what you fly. The way his post read was if he thought simple going vertical in a 109G-2 should be enough even at co-energy to out climb i.e. escape his pursuing Spit 5. As pointed out the AH spit 5 runs at 16lbs boost.
When I flew 190s exclusively I never went above 12k or so and would DF on the deck with any plane and win.
However 109s are best flown as Energy fighters but not typical B-n-Z or by using altitude and high speed passes.
A 109 (almost all variants) can use its high climb rate to dictate the engagement. Normal Boom & Zoom tactics with very high-speed passes do not suit the 109's style. It is better suited to the style of energy combat where the main objective is to set up a moderate altitude advantage (2k at the most) right over or near the target. Then use short sprint dives with moderate closure rates for gun passes. The 109 can then climb back out and loop or climb away as necessary.
Don't fool yourself into thinking a few tweaks here and there will make AH more "real". Nothing in these games is real. Not the FM's or the gunnery or the DM. It’s better if folks realize that rather then banging their head against the wall. More importantly how the game gets played completely destroys any idea of realism. Even ToD won’t be able to live up to "realism".
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Originally posted by Crumpp
Actually Furball,
The Energy fight should be a very exciting fight. Just read about Randy Cunningham vs Col. Toon.
I have, and its not that exciting. (Fighter Combat - Robert Shaw)
Originally posted by Crumpp
At least much more exciting than "lock on their tail and match maneuvers" angle fighting.
Personally i think being the defender requires far more skill than the attacker. And its a position i much more enjoy being in. I find no satisfaction in BnZ. Nothing, nothing in AH surpasses fighting as the underdog and winning.
Originally posted by Crumpp
Luftwhiners! That seems to be the standard answer when folks have no facts left to present.
I presented my facts immediately after i called you a luftwhiner?
Originally posted by Crumpp
The bullet can go that far, sure. If the gunnery is realistic though good luck hitting. Especially with that Hispano. Ever seen the ballistics? The .50 cal has a better chance of hitting but being a solid slug will lose some it's damage potential in that long flight. If you got wing mounted .50 cals, GOOD LUCK!! Your bullets will be about 30 feet or more to the right or left depending on your convergence. Given dispersion IF your really really lucky you might land A single hit.
Crumpp
Yes, this is a game, i have no idea if it is realistic. But, i know from experience you can hit from that far and i have done regularly. I used to vulch aircraft and pt's (not tried it in AH2) from 1.4k+ in F4U-1C with great success.
As for the spiral climb batz, i use that myself, but your average joe (or fritz may be more appropriate) BnZ'er doesn't.
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Furball,
You presented no facts. Just a pile of you opinion. Check out the science by following the links I provided.
You boring BnZ luftwhiners could be going 600mph+ but as long as the Spit pilot times lead turn / reversal right he will always get chance for the shot.
So sorry but the science just doesn't back it up. I know you want your UFO, but we are simulating planes here. I think the game your are looking for is "X-Wing".
Presenting facts is not "Hey the game goes like this". If the game is contrary to actual performance than it needs to be changed.
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Furball
but as long as the Spit pilot times lead turn / reversal right he will always get chance for the shot.
So its not a fact that if a perfectly timed lead turn or reversal on an attacker will result in a shooting opportunity?
Originally posted by Furball
Also, don't forget .50's and hispano's can hit upwards of 800 - 1,000 yards (pretty much extreme range now i suspect)
So its not a fact that Hispano's and 50'cals in Aces High can hit upwards of 800 yards?
Originally posted by Furball
so even if you do have energy advantage you will need quite a bit to gain that extra 2,400 / 3,000 feet.
So its not a fact that 800 - 1,000 yards is 2,400 - 3,000 feet or that you will need to be moving pretty damn fast to not present yourself as a target inside that range?
And as for flying 'my UFO' - i fly all different aircraft types, i choose what i feel like depending on what i want to do and if i fancy a challenge.
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So its not a fact that 800 - 1,000 yards is 2,400 - 3,000 feet or that you will need to be moving pretty damn fast to not present yourself as a target inside that range?
It's fact bro, that you don't shoot very many real weapons if that is what you believe. Aircraft weapons are even more problematic. Robert Shaw has a great section on the problem of fixed aircraft ballistics.
So its not a fact that if a perfectly timed lead turn or reversal on an attacker will result in a shooting opportunity?
That is a broad stroke statement. In my personal experience it was not a lead but rather a LAG turn the spit conducted. He then zoomed up and caught the FW-190A8 I was in.
So its not a fact that Hispano's and 50'cals in Aces High can hit upwards of 800 yards?
Yes, In AH2 though, gunnery is more realistic. I have not seen many 800 yard shots from wing mounted weapons. Inline mounted it is entirely possible provided you have perfect conditions. I shot down a Spit extending in a 109F at D800. He had hit auto-level.
Crumpp
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I BnZed simply because there was both a spit 9 and 5, then I noticed the spit5 outclimbed the 9. My statement was not whether or not a 109G2 can outclimb a spit or not. I want to know why is it that the slower spit5 can outclimb the faster spit9. Someone even made a comment (someone who was flying a spit and not a "luftwhiner") that the spit5 was overmodeled.
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Furball, B-n-Z is not all therr is to Energy Fighting. B-n-Z is just a form of of it.
Here's an example from Shaw
"Actual combat accounts of the successful use of energy tactics are rather rare, but the following example is a beauty. Here John Godfrey's P-51B Mustang has probably 20 percent lower wing loading than the German Focke-Wulf 190D-9 opponent, and Godfrey increases his turn advantage further by skill full use of flaps. The Focke-Wulf, however, may have 20 percent better power loading. Here are two masters at work:"
From page 163
Figher Combat
"...Around and around we went. Sometimes the FW got in close, and other times, when I'd drop my flaps to tighten my turn, I was in a position to fire; but the German, sensing my superior position, kept swinging down in his turn, gaining speed and quickly pulling up, and with the advantage in height he would then pour down on my tail..."
Read what I wrote above in regards to the 109.
Timid bore and ZZZZ'rs isn't what I am talking about at all.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
I BnZed simply because there was both a spit 9 and 5, then I noticed the spit5 outclimbed the 9. My statement was not whether or not a 109G2 can outclimb a spit or not. I want to know why is it that the slower spit5 can outclimb the faster spit9. Someone even made a comment (someone who was flying a spit and not a "luftwhiner") that the spit5 was overmodeled.
You are slowly changing the tone of your original post. Unless you provide film of the sortie none of us can help you.
"Outclimb" doesnt mean much as the amount separation you will gain is but a few hundred yards over thousands of feet. Simply going vertical wont take advantage of the 109s climb speed at a given angle. There are so many variables to consider with in your orignal post and now that you seem to be changing it even more.
With out film there's no way any one can help you or analyze the what happened.
That's why you should film every sortie. Not only can you review what you did wrong but what the other guy did right.
If your post is simply "I think the spits are over modelled" or "I think this guy was cheating" you will have an even harder time trying convince folks with out that film.
If you are B-n-Z'ing in a 109 then you flying incorrectly to begin with. I would venture a guess that you had gondolas as well. Which affect climbrate, turn rate, roll rate and top speed.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Furball, B-n-Z is not all therr is to Energy Fighting. B-n-Z is just a form of of it.
Here's an example from Shaw
"Actual combat accounts of the successful use of energy tactics are rather rare, but the following example is a beauty. Here John Godfrey's P-51B Mustang has probably 20 percent lower wing loading than the German Focke-Wulf 190D-9 opponent, and Godfrey increases his turn advantage further by skill full use of flaps. The Focke-Wulf, however, may have 20 percent better power loading. Here are two masters at work:"
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Mind if I just change the subject for one quick question?
That quote regarding John Godfrey in a B model Mustang vs a D9. Does it mention when it took place?
Hohun and I have gone around a bit on when the D9 showed up as there are a number of Allied pilot reports of 'long noses' starting in the Spring of 44 but it sounds like they didn't reach operational service until the Fall of 44.
Was there a time frame on the Godfrey quote? I'd have thought he'd have been in a D model Mustang by mid summer 44.
Dan/Slack
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Dan, III./JG54 received 18 new D-9s in Sept 44. http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg54.html
Could it be a test Dora that the P-51 ran into?
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Dan, III./JG54 received 18 new D-9s in Sept 44. http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/jagd/biiijg54.html
Could it be a test Dora that the P-51 ran into?
That was one of the suggestions previously. In John Foreman's book "Over the Beaches" He refers to an engagement on June 8, 1944 where the 56th FG ran into D9s, and then June 20th when P38s of the 370th FG ran into D9s.
The original discussion ran out of the debate about John Lowell's supposed fight between him and Galland in a D9 which would have had to have happened no later then July since Lowell transitioned to 51s after that.
But it seems clear that the September date for the JG54 birds is the correct one which of course negates the previous claims of D9 encounters. It's just interesting that pilots were making kill claims on D9s that apparently weren't in service yet.
Dan/Slack
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From reading various tactical trials I get the impression that Allied intelligence knew about the Dora long before it entered service. When the P51B and Spit XIV prototype where test flown against a FW-190A4 in the winter of 43/44 the allies were estimating the FW-190D's performance.
With so much speculation on the part of the Allies it is no wonder pilots were seeing "Ghosts".
Crumpp
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From reading various tactical trials I get the impression that Allied intelligence knew about the Dora long before it entered service. When the P51B and Spit XIV prototype were test flown against an FW-190A4, in the winter of 43/44, the allies were estimating the FW-190D's performance during the trials.
With so much speculation on the part of the Allies it is no wonder pilots were seeing "Ghosts".
Crumpp
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Originally posted by Wotan
You are slowly changing the tone of your original post. Unless you provide film of the sortie none of us can help you.
"Outclimb" doesnt mean much as the amount separation you will gain is but a few hundred yards over thousands of feet. Simply going vertical wont take advantage of the 109s climb speed at a given angle. There are so many variables to consider with in your orignal post and now that you seem to be changing it even more.
With out film there's no way any one can help you or analyze the what happened.
That's why you should film every sortie. Not only can you review what you did wrong but what the other guy did right.
If your post is simply "I think the spits are over modelled" or "I think this guy was cheating" you will have an even harder time trying convince folks with out that film.
If you are B-n-Z'ing in a 109 then you flying incorrectly to begin with. I would venture a guess that you had gondolas as well. Which affect climbrate, turn rate, roll rate and top speed.
I see what your saying about needing to film. MY main question is... how did a spitV compare to the spitIX we have in a vertical climb.
No I did not have gondolas, and not saying the spit outclimbed me. It kind of appears (to me) you assumed that I got shot down and began to whine about it. I wasnt shot down, just noted the climbing difference.
guess I better just rephrase and ask could a SpitV vertically outclimb the SpitIX in a co-e state
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I havent read the entire post, so it may have already been said but here goes:
The spit5 has very good stability at slow speeds, therefore it can hang on its nose for quite a while. The spit9 in AHII is pretty much a spit5 but with a little more power.
A hurricane can hang on its nose until it reaches 0 mph. I can keep a hurricane pointed upwards until it starts falling backwards. The hurr has something about it that helps it retain E very well.
109s have horrible E retention, and are not my ideal plane for a rope.
Of course, the spits could have just come out of a dive. You never know without a film.
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Originally posted by Raptor01
guess I better just rephrase and ask could a SpitV vertically outclimb the SpitIX in a co-e state
Rate of climb of a Spit Vb was4,750 feet per minute.
Rate of climb of a Spit IX was 4100 feet per minute.
You have to remember that the IX had the two stage supercharger which gave it better performance at altitude and had a higher service ceiling then the V. But it was also heavier then the V.
Dan/Slack
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could a SpitV vertically outclimb the SpitIX
What Guppy said... :p
Guppy my brother has my book but I dont recall the date.
Whether it was a d-9 or a mis-identified ac I dont know.
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Guppy:
"Hohun and I have gone around a bit on when the D9 showed up as there are a number of Allied pilot reports of 'long noses' starting in the Spring of 44 but it sounds like they didn't reach operational service until the Fall of 44. "
I recall Johnny Johnsson mentioning the German Ace "Matoni" flying a long nosed 190. Unfortunately I do not have his book with me right now, but I belive it referred to the summer 1944.
Anyway, that may provide you with a lead
:)
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Originally posted by United
A hurricane can hang on its nose until it reaches 0 mph. I can keep a hurricane pointed upwards until it starts falling backwards. The hurr has something about it that helps it retain E very well.
yep, that's exactly what i did in Hurr2 but can't fire long burst of my quad hizzokas or i'll start "shake, rattle, and roll".