Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: octospider0 on August 16, 2004, 07:01:37 PM
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I hear about this move alot and for all I know I am doing it, but can I get some defination from you guys as to what exactly it is.
Thanks
Odi
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Climbing up, getting the guy to follow you and stall out, then diving back down on him while he's slow and has no control.
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The basic premiss of a rope manouver is to entice an enemy with a lower E state into following you vertical, to get him to stall underneath you. Then you shoot him while he is helpless in the stall.
There are many scenerios and many vairiations on how to do it successfully, but that is the basic definiation.
dang phookat, ya beat me to it while i was typing :)
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I heard it's super gamey...especially if you're suckered into it one too many times.
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Originally posted by SOB
I heard it's super gamey...especially if you're suckered into it one too many times.
I have an interview on tape here somewhere of a P51 pilot describing roping a 109. While he didnt call it a "rope" thats what it was. Was he being gamey?
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"The Rope" manoeuvre is the general term for when you trick someone to following you in a vertical climb. You yourself do not necessarily have to kill him, and he does not necessarily have to stall before you, but the point can be simply to get him slow and in the vertical so your buddy can zoom in and kill him for you. Roping is the favoured manoeuvre of experienced P-38 and 109 pilots.
Rope them ... and then hang them with it.
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Murdr, I think you missed SOB's sarcasm.
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Originally posted by Murdr
I have an interview on tape here somewhere of a P51 pilot describing roping a 109. While he didnt call it a "rope" thats what it was. Was he being gamey?
SOB forgot to use the sarcasm tags ... or did he? Heh ;)
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Hehe, yea. Went over my head the first time, till I re-read it. Oh well :)
I was gonna edit in a remark to that effect, but I figured, never mind somone is probably already typing away about it
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What they said, and to add that if you do it perfectly (I rarely do) you will not stall at the top, but rather come over the top just over your stall so that you still have control. Ideally the rope victim will come over the top in a stall while you are on the way down, and in the perfect setup, they will be flopping around helpless with their belly showing.
It can be done to any plane in any plane, but the good zoomers obviously do it better.
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I consider 'perfectly' to be his nose starting to drop just as I face him. But thats me.
I do remember after a recent rope. I ch200 "Need a rope? Here use mine." The reply I got was "I was gonna ya, but never mind"
:)
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Originally posted by Murdr
I consider 'perfectly' to be his nose starting to drop just as I face him. But thats me.
:)
that sounds perfect to me Murdr :)
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And we've got some real subtle ropers out there... I think Yawz (or Yaws) knows no other manuver. But he has that once so nicely worked out. He suckered me in MA about 3 weeks ago by flying his 109 just barely climbing for about 30 seconds as I was diving to him in a less powerful plane, then he very slowly increased the angle... Just till I couldn't see horizon...
and he let it sit there for a while, then gently he eased it steeper and I never saw it coming.
It was really well done. And it ticked me off in the worst way.
I have become very aware of the rope since I saw that handy work. I don't think I'll be falling for it anymore.
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ok got it now, damm! ive been lead into that more then a few times.
Thanks
Odi
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The rope is one of my favourite moves.:)
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SOB was just quoting something a well known AH trainer once said before he quit.
"I was roped 10 times tonight in the DA and its gamey and takes advantage of my stupidity"
Is how it went IIRC...
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Originally posted by Murdr
I consider 'perfectly' to be his nose starting to drop just as I face him. But thats me.
I thought that was what I said only a bit differently. I said " Ideally the rope victim will come over the top in a stall while you are on the way down". Sounds a lot like what you said. :)
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So, when you are climbing up after your target and just a few MPH above stall speeds notice that your target is out of E and beginning to wallow and that you are catching him and only need to hold verticle for one more second...
...thats when you KNOW his buddy is about to blast your stationary, lack-of-SA arse right outta the sky :D
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Originally posted by SOB
I heard it's super gamey...especially if you're suckered into it one too many times.
;-)
~A
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works great in aircraf that gain speed well in climbs
other day took off in a F4U4 headed to furball area at 14k and roped 2 ponys 1 after the other:D thats when the icon pays off:D
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Rope - as described above. It just so happens that I have a short film (4 mins) which shows two ropes - first a Spit who tried chasing me and, towards the end of the film, a 109. I had dived in on a pot luck sweep - got a n1k, but then a 109 was in hot pursuit. My total E was greater than his. Worked like a charm. You may notice a high 109 towards the end - that was straffo, and he damn near got me, but not quite. ;) Get the film here (http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/f4u2ropes.zip).
PS - this was 6 months ago - may need the AH1 film viewer(?)
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Be careful using that move in multicon situation. Your SA better be good.
You're just as much of a duck as the other guy if con has 1k on you..
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how many times have I died when I relize the guy under me has more E than I thoght, and he gets to D400 and shoots me down when I stall :(
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Main Entry: 1rope
Pronunciation: 'rOp
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English rAp; akin to Old High German reif hoop
1 a : a large stout cord of strands of fibers or wire twisted or braided together b : a long slender strip of material used as rope c : a hangman's noose d : LARIAT
2 : a row or string consisting of things united by or as if by braiding, twining, or threading
3 plural : special or basic techniques or procedures
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Question -- does the reversal at the top come best with roll, pitch, or yaw? And, what should the goal be for airspeed? Are flaps counterproductive, or do they allow you to better tie the noose?
And roger that on SA.....
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(http://www.netaces.org/genmerges/merge2/2-4.gif)
visit http://www.netaces.org read part called "mastering the merge"
109G10 seems very good for this.
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Originally posted by SOB
I heard it's super gamey...especially if you're suckered into it one too many times.
yeah i learned my lesson going after someone trying to rope me a long time ago, and now i wont follow if i know i dont have the e to get him
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Ok i've found a film of one. I was surprised i didn't have more as it is a favourite of mine. As with zanth's diagram i usually zoom down infront of a con and zoom up infront of him in an attempt to bait him.
In this film i had a hefty alt adv, it's a shame i couldn't find a film where my E adv wasn't so large.
rope (http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/87_1092745920_mossievn1k.zip)
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Originally posted by Simaril
Question -- does the reversal at the top come best with roll, pitch, or yaw? And, what should the goal be for airspeed? Are flaps counterproductive, or do they allow you to better tie the noose?
And roger that on SA.....
I prefer rudder when at the top, sort of a hammerhead stall then. Pitch is fine if you got the extra smash for it, add a little roll to line up his belly just right (you want him to be blind), flaps only if the victim stalls too soon and you gotta come around really quick. Actual airspeed is going to vary greatly depending on your aircraft and the overall situation around you.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Question -- does the reversal at the top come best with roll, pitch, or yaw?
Probably depends on the plane.
Originally posted by Simaril
And, what should the goal be for airspeed?
Focus on relative speeds in combination with distance, and in combination with relative climbing rates of the two plane types. Do not focus on only your speed, except to make sure it doesn't get below controllability. If you are approaching uncontrollable speeds and he doesn't look like he's stalling fast enough to avoid the HO on your dive, break off the rope and level off. If the guy is catching up too fast to just level off, then you screwed up the rope and you're about to die. So, dive to get some speed and then try a reversal.
Originally posted by Simaril
Are flaps counterproductive
They are often helpful because they lower your stall speed, and let you keep control for a little longer while you wait for them to stall.
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The other bail out manuver I use when in a better climbing aircraft, and the first zoom isn't going to work, is transition to a spiral climb be for your speed drops to low.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
The other bail out manuver I use when in a better climbing aircraft, and the first zoom isn't going to work, is transition to a spiral climb be for your speed drops to low.
HiTech
you play HiTech?
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Originally posted by Stone
how many times have I died when I relize the guy under me has more E than I thoght, and he gets to D400 and shoots me down when I stall :(
did that to a P38L one time and learned the hard way:(
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great answer phookat.
Also important is timing the merge. If It looks like you are going to stall over and have a HO situation, sometimes all it takes is delaying the merge for 1-2 seconds. If you were to chop throttle at the stall, low guy is expecting you to come screaming back down at him, but you are actually just holding back to allow a stall. Conversely if you see the nme starting to waffle into a stall, you should be concerned with reversing to merge at the right time regardless of your own speed.
The most often bail out I find myself in (P-38) is where the E states are close and I end up lowering ROC and hanging on full flaps still climbing ROC 1.7 at 110mph. Cant count the number of times some frustrated la7 or nik has ended up just d400 away but to slow to raise the nose to do anything about it. (Not my favorite, but I find myself there often enough)
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Originally posted by simshell
you play HiTech?
Hitech's shades account? Man I've wondered about the possibility (and whom it might be) for a long time :)
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Originally posted by Zanth
Hitech's shades account? Man I've wondered about the possibility (and whom it might be) for a long time :)
He flies sometimes.
Tour 55
murdr has 1 kills on hitech
hitech has 1 kills on murdr
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Originally posted by Murdr
Also important is timing the merge. If It looks like you are going to stall over and have a HO situation, sometimes all it takes is delaying the merge for 1-2 seconds. If you were to chop throttle at the stall, low guy is expecting you to come screaming back down at him, but you are actually just holding back to allow a stall. Conversely if you see the nme starting to waffle into a stall, you should be concerned with reversing to merge at the right time regardless of your own speed.
Good point! This is the balance that is easiest to screw up...waiting too long or too little.
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Originally posted by hitech
The other bail out manuver I use when in a better climbing aircraft, and the first zoom isn't going to work, is transition to a spiral climb be for your speed drops to low.
Yep, very true. In a 109, 38, etc this is a great move.
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My personal favorites for roping are the F4's and LA's.
The F4's, especially the c-hog! Get the dope to chase you vertical and as he starts to wallow pop several stages of flaps and pull it on over, done right, a complete reversal takes only 2-3 seconds and the 4x20's simply pulverize the fool who though he could take you.
The La5 when low on gas is simply amazing. It damn near hovers and you can just abuse it terribly holding it vertically untill it flops over one way or the other with no fear of entering a spin. Works very well against everything but a G-10 using the "very slowly start climbing 'till he's roped before he knows it" technique.
The general roping technique:
Unless you have a massive performance advantage you want to start with an E advantage. Let the opponent on your six, I like about 600 yrds, where a little juking means a damaging shot is unlikely. Depending on your E advantage start pulling vertical as the range increase to 800 to 1000 yards. Do this very slowly!!! An abrupt pull up allows the enemy to "cut the corner" of your manuever and gain closure even if his airspeed is lower than yours! I typically try to get vertical just before stall speed. This allows you to choose to nose over to the front or rear or perform a wingover if you choose. I also suggest very slow vertical rolls to throw off the enemy's aim and lets you watch what they are doing on the way up. If they realize they are being roped and start to break, turn into them immediately! They have less E and will be easy lunch. If they continue to follow you just watch and wait 'till they start wallowing/stalling, or ideally just before, so as you have completed your reverse they are just floating there in a stall with no airspeed and no control. Experience helps to judge when to reverse.
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A couple small ropes are better than one big one.
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One huge thing to keep in mind with the ROPE manuver is you need a good distance to start if you dont have a huge E advantage. Without that big E advantage, or a significant starting distance the accordian effect with get your patootie shot off in a hurry.
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The Rope?
That’s easy.
It’s a cord of nominal length usually consisting of several strands.
These strands are either twisted or in some cases braided together. The braided rope is usually much stronger. But it also depends on the material that it is constructed from.
In some cases a rope 1/4 the diameter of another is many times stronger than the larger of the twain...err two...err twine. Im confused now
Oh...you mean that "Rope"?
I don’t know much about that kind of rope. ;)
On a seriuos note. KingCat does a very nice rope in a 190 D-9 :)
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Originally posted by phookat
Yep, very true. In a 109, 38, etc this is a great move.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=127649