Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kev367th on August 17, 2004, 11:25:26 AM
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O.K. guys lets get down to the nitty gritty.
This is not a 2 v 3 v 4 country problem, nor is it a gameplay problem.
This is a COMMUNITY problem.
As has been stated, in the past squads have moved sides to help balance the sides.
I remember lots of squads (ours included) that went Rook when they were low on numbers. NOT for perks, got more than I will ever use anyway, but because it was the right thing to do.
This was done by the said squads voluntarily, not because they were asked, coerced of forced to do so.
After all in is in the best interests of the GAME and COMMUNITY as a whole to keep sides reasonably balanced.
So the big question is - why so different now?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
O.K. guys lets get down to the nitty gritty.
This is not a 2 v 3 v 4 country problem, nor is it a gameplay problem.
This is a COMMUNITY problem.
As has been stated, in the past squads have moved sides to help balance the sides.
I remember lots of squads (ours included) that went Rook when they were low on numbers. NOT for perks, got more than I will ever use anyway, but because it was the right thing to do.
This was done by the said squads voluntarily, not because they were asked, coerced of forced to do so.
After all in is in the best interests of the GAME and COMMUNITY as a whole to keep sides reasonably balanced.
So the big question is - why so different now?
That IS the 64,000,000 question !!!
Kev, I am sure you have reading the other posts in threads, but it appears that some/most are not so willing to move as they were when the Rooks needed the help ... and this is the premise of your question. What is the difference ?
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It was actually a rhetorical question I guess.
I think by now You, me, HT and most people have worked out the answer.
Nuff said, subject closed. ;)
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Dunno i think the plane disabling thing should be used as a temporary tool. You know for like when one side has alot more players for so long. Go ahead kick on the flight disable thing and the squads that truely wanna fly for their country will stick, the guys that jsut wanna fly their planes will change. Then once it's sort of balanced just disable the flight disabler thingamagic.
HT made this trying to please the squads that like doing objectives like taking airfields and the such (tards.) The guys that like to truely fight would rather be outnumbered.
HT was just trying to please another demographic of the AH community and as always you can't please everyone :(
But my first paragraph (beutifully structured thing at the top) would be a good medium i should think.
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Originally posted by YUCCA
Dunno i think the plane disabling thing should be used as a temporary tool. You know for like when one side has alot more players for so long. Go ahead kick on the flight disable thing and the squads that truely wanna fly for their country will stick, the guys that jsut wanna fly their planes will change. Then once it's sort of balanced just disable the flight disabler thingamagic.
HT made this trying to please the squads that like doing objectives like taking airfields and the such (tards.) The guys that like to truely fight would rather be outnumbered.
HT was just trying to please another demographic of the AH community and as always you can't please everyone :(
But my first paragraph (beutifully structured thing at the top) would be a good medium i should think.
Well ... the "disabler thingamagic" shuts itself off when there is a balance and will only turn back on when it goes out-of-balance.
I believe that HT is not quite done with this "disabler thingamagic" and we will see some tweaks coming very soon. It's gonna take some time to perfect it, but I think that its still a good idea.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
That IS the 64,000,000 question !!!
Kev, I am sure you have reading the other posts in threads, but it appears that some/most are not so willing to move as they were when the Rooks needed the help ... and this is the premise of your question. What is the difference ?
Give me some more info on this, I've always been curious about the big switch, I wasn't here.
Since there are no barriers to moving around, it seems the most likely reason it hasn't happened would be that the player demographic has changed, maybe there were less "weekenders", it could probably be figured out. Who were the squads that switched? . At one time, at least enough players felt the need for balance, so they did something about it. That's the whole thing about the theories behind "asking to move to balance", no barriers to moving now, everyone finds their equilibrium, not a lot of squads move around, so things are sort of where they are in a natural order. In order to make change happen, barriers must be erected.
I think if you went down the negotiated side switch road, it would quickly become "I'm all for it, as long as the other guy does it".
Let's see a show of hands -
All Rook squads willing to make a long term switch to Bish or Knit to make the side balancing thing go away, please come forward.
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Well if it will last through time, i will be happy just to know that i invented it's name!
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Originally posted by YUCCA
Well if it will last through time, i will be happy just to know that i invented it's name!
Well ... "disabler thingamagic" was actually dubbed the "Delirium Factor" earlier. It was his idea ... so he is to blame for all of this ... hehe ... :D
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Have been thinking about this. So far Im thinking it just happens randomly.
I have noticed that all the time I have been in flight sims, Each country eventualy devlops it's own personality.
This isn't to say that every person flying for a country is the same. But wrather more people of one group or like mindes gravitate together just because of humun nature. There is no prediction how this gravitation will end up, or what the personalities of each country will end up to be, just that the personality will form.
I' starting to think in the current situation we ended up with a unique set of countries that for some resone didn't want to balance out like it always has in the past. Still have no idea what common personality trait made it this way.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
Have been thinking about this. So far Im thinking it just happens randomly.
I have noticed that all the time I have been in flight sims, Each country eventualy devlops it's own personality.
This isn't to say that every person flying for a country is the same. But wrather more people of one group or like mindes gravitate together just because of humun nature. There is no prediction how this gravitation will end up, or what the personalities of each country will end up to be, just that the personality will form.
I' starting to think in the current situation we ended up with a unique set of countries that for some resone didn't want to balance out like it always has in the past. Still have no idea what common personality trait made it this way.
HiTech
Our squad just got done with a rotation, and I posted my findings in another thread.
The short of it was that I felt that the Rooks had the most comraderie of all countries. With that, we were VERY comfortable there and could have remained without blinking an eye.
We did continue with the tour and ended up back with the Knights and will remain here for quite some time due to the imbalance.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Our squad just got done with a rotation, and I posted my findings in another thread.
The short of it was that I felt that the Rooks had the most comraderie of all countries. With that, we were VERY comfortable there and could have remained without blinking an eye.
We did continue with the tour and ended up back with the Knights and will remain here for quite some time due to the imbalance.
When I was lone wolfing a bit..I flew with the rooks as well for about a month. It WAS more comraderie. Why this is I have no idea. I was and am a Knight. Not just because of some loyalty but because they were the underdog as were the bish.
I came back to knights as I had more friends here and didn't like the idea of shooting down old squaddies :lol
I wish I knew how the rooks did it..or what they have that promotes that comraderie. I'll stay knights as long as the squad Im in wants to. If they ever want to change countries then I'm sure we will go wherever we go.
If the Knights could get the same mojo as the Rooks...They would be in my opinion just as if not better than the rooks.:aok
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Well there was some great cameraderie and teamwork today from the Bish. Even with the ENV limiter.
The newbies were having a blast as were the old hands. Seem to have picked up a lot of newbies last few days, maybe the ENV thingy is working. But will still be sometime before everything settles down.
Even had a return to the old tradtional mass Bish Tiffy raid, brought a tear to my eye. Nothing like 20-30 Tiffys dropping on base to make ya wet your pants lol.
WTG Bish - 2nd reset today, 3 in a row!!!!! All with inferior planes, and I thought all resets were due to superior organization and late war planes.
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Originally posted by hitech
I' starting to think in the current situation we ended up with a unique set of countries that for some resone didn't want to balance out like it always has in the past. Still have no idea what common personality trait made it this way.
HiTech
IMO, it can be traced back to the landgrab concept of gameplay. For too many, this has become the main focus of the game. Heck, for some, it is the ONLY focus of the game. Now, instead of becoming bored with putting up numbers that your opponents can not compete with, people revel in it. I view what has been going on as the strategic equivolent of vulching/spawn camping. While I can do both in support of a goal (ie..to capture or defend a field), I find that it loses its charm fairly quickly. It seems that these days, more and more people are willing to make their 'virtual living' this way.
The solution may be to alter the game so that it is less about conquest and more about combat.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
IMO, it can be traced back to the landgrab concept of gameplay. For too many, this has become the main focus of the game. Heck, for some, it is the ONLY focus of the game. Now, instead of becoming bored with putting up numbers that your opponents can not compete with, people revel in it. I view what has been going on as the strategic equivolent of vulching/spawn camping. While I can do both in support of a goal (ie..to capture or defend a field), I find that it loses its charm fairly quickly. It seems that these days, more and more people are willing to make their 'virtual living' this way.
The solution may be to alter the game so that it is less about conquest and more about combat.
Good Observations and insight NoBaddy! The game goal currently appears to be to win resets and reap the rewards (land grab). The easiest way to accomplish this is with overwhelming numbers so naturally the easy way out has become the norm.
Danged if I can figure out how... but if resets were more dependent on good strategy and teamwork than brute force then numbers of players would never be a problem. Brains should win resets not brawn. But... like I said... danged if I can figure out how to make things work like that.
-Buzzz
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Originally posted by Buzzz
Good Observations and insight NoBaddy! The game goal currently appears to be to win resets and reap the rewards (land grab). The easiest way to accomplish this is with overwhelming numbers so naturally the easy way out has become the norm.
Danged if I can figure out how... but if resets were more dependent on good strategy and teamwork than brute force then numbers of players would never be a problem. Brains should win resets not brawn. But... like I said... danged if I can figure out how to make things work like that.
-Buzzz
Well, one way to change some attitudes would be to do away with the perk bonus for a reset. Think about it, the perk bonus merely rewards people for hording.
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I have always wondered why they ever would have started that in the first place. Were people not fighting each other or something?
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IMO, it can be traced back to the landgrab concept of gameplay. For too many, this has become the main focus of the game. Heck, for some, it is the ONLY focus of the game.
I agree 100%. I don't want to beat this horse again but in time past each side was a mix of player types. My squad's in AH were always "fighter / fur ball" types. We didn’t care about "winning a reset". We had no "loyalty" out side of a few like minded friends. However, we would enjoy shooting them down and getting shot down by them as much as fighting with them. It aided to our "camaraderie".
Things in the AH main have changed from what it once was. I know HT has rejected that but the main at least how I see it is nothing more then a race to reset.
How do you accomplish a reset? Large missions that are attractive to a lot of players. This is where they find their idea of "team work". We have had many a player come through our squad who were a little disappointed about our free hunt approach. We went where we could find a fight irregardless of where the "war was being won."
The current type of game play rewards the larger group and gives them a sense of mission and helps them feel as if they are actually working together toward something. What I don't know, it all starts over 4 min after a reset.
As Widewing said in another thread there may be an underlying problem that some folks are just too attached the game and are mixing the game's virtual world with reality. You read some of the most insane stuff "I will not betray my country". I don't if these folks are serious but they may need help.
Now, instead of becoming bored with putting up numbers that your opponents can not compete with, people revel in it. I view what has been going on as the strategic equivolent of vulching/spawn camping. While I can do both in support of a goal (ie..to capture or defend a field), I find that it loses its charm fairly quickly. It seems that these days, more and more people are willing to make their 'virtual living' this way.
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I agree. These same people would argue "What is the point behind furballing, up kill some, die some, repeat". They claim that’s equally boring. I don’t agree because I think that the fur ball is ever changing. You find players of different skill types and tactics mixing it up. Squads flying together and wing men covering each other. Lone wolves perched on the edges etc… Yet these same folks will up and auger while jaboing a town and repeat it over and over. I can’t see how this doesn’t get boring. This goes back to "well at least I am helping my side win".
The solution may be to alter the game so that it is less about conquest and more about combat.
I agree again. I said in another thread that it appears that HT is fixing things on the edges and not dealing with the what I perceive as the heart of the matter. I could be wrong and self absorbed in my own idea of fun but wth here I go anyway.
IMHO as game play has developed in AH it has become more of a land grab then air combat. Capturing fields and the like have also been a part of the game but to me these provided something to fight over. Rather then just something to take as quickly as possible.
Along with the fuel pork fix and the current side balancing fix these are just minors issues compared to the how the game is actually played. Again this is my perception.
Maybe I am completely wrong but I will pretend my opinion matters for a moment and suggest that maybe a review of what triggers a reset is in order. Or in shifting the reset trigger away from just field capture? I am not going to rehash the old suggestions but is there any consideration of changing game play?
No doubt there will be those resistant to change and will cry from every mountain top about how HT is "killing them". It maybe more work then its worth.
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I don't pretend to understand the dynamics or work involved, but wouldn't it be possible to have an arena for the "reset" crowd and one for the "furball" crowd?
Imho I think the "reset" arena would be more populated, as a lot of people enjoy having an outcome, ie; reset, a perceived goal to attain, but then the "furballers" would have an area where the fight is the only thing.
Shop
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This is the way I see it from my experiences in the last 2+ years ...
Land Grab - win the reset, has been part of this game since I joined and was there before I joined and during this time period, there was never an imbalance in the arena as we see today, except for when the Rooks were in the bucket. With that, I don't believe that the "Land Grab" is the sole variable that has thrown things out of wack.
I still believe that its a comraderie thing ...
When I started (as a Knight), I remember there were some large forces in the arena.
Arabian Knights (Bish), MAW (Knights) and USMC (Knights). I don't ever remember a single squad on the Rooks that had the influence that these squads had. I could be wrong and don't mean to slight any long time Rooks squads as well as any other long time squads in the Bish and Knights. This is just what I remember.
I seemed that the AKs were the driving force for the Bish. Whereever the AKs went, so did the Bish. Same for the MAW and USMC. Whereever the MAW/USMC went, so went the Knights. AKs were the premier base takers for the Bish and the MAW/USMC were the premier base takers for the Knights.
I remember many a clash between the MAW and AKs. Word would get out on country channel that the AKs were attacking field X and MAW would run there to spoil it. I know when the MAW went for a base, the AKs would show up to spoil the party. Back then, bringing home AK scalps was the cats meow.
Now, what happened to these squads and their influence.
I believe that the AKs had a falling out within their ranks. What ever happened to AKNimtz ? ... along with the disgusting beating that they took and still take for creating AKDesert. Between the 2 of those events, it appears that the AKs have kinda faded into the background and since then, the Bish really haven't had the mojo.
The MAW ... well I know for a fact that some of the key people on that squad had real life things to deal with and some got burned out. Since then, the MAW has also drifted into the background and doesn't quite carry the influence that they once had in Knightdom.
The USMC ... don't really know the story there, but USGrim does not seem to play as much as he use to, and I believe that he is/was the driving force for the USMC as 40DogMAW is for the MAW, and he doesn't play as much as he use to either. Don't really know who the driving force for the AKs was, but I will take a stab at it ... AKNimitz ... I don't believe that he plays anymore.
I can speak for the Knights ... when 40Dog or Grim started directing the force/attack, people would jump on board immediately and things would happen. Their overall community respect for these guys was all that was needed to rally the troops.
I once witnessed a night where the Knights were down to 3 bases, on the verge of a reset. Knights couldn't find their butts with both hands. 40Dog logged on and started to direct counter-attacks. Well, in a matter of 3 hours, not only did the Knights fend off the reset, they actually reset the whole arena. It was amazing. Only other person that I saw accomplish this type of turnaround was Grim.
Knights did have something like the RJO ... The MAW, USMC, and FreeBirds (another strong squad) started running ops together and when that happened, it was very hard to stop the Knights.
Then came the RJO ... Rooks were constantly getting a beating and probably the worst beating in the history of AH. They decided to do something about it, and with hard work and cooperation, they overcame and have become the dominate country to date.
The task of creating this RJO and the results is why I believe that the Rooks have the best comraderie in the game. They worked together, and dug themselfs out of a very deep hole. That is what creates very strong bonds between people ... working for a common goal and succeeding.
When the RJO came into play, the driving forces in the Bish and Knights were slowly disappearing into the background and there is not, I believe, at this point, any real driving forces steering the Bish and the Knights.
Why do people want to fly for the Rooks ... cause for the most part, they have fun TOGETHER.
Sorry for being longwinded.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
snip
Why do people want to fly for the Rooks ... cause for the most part, they have fun TOGETHER.
Sorry for being longwinded.
Agree. About you being longwinded I mean.....
:rofl
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
IMO, it can be traced back to the landgrab concept of gameplay. For too many, this has become the main focus of the game. Heck, for some, it is the ONLY focus of the game. Now, instead of becoming bored with putting up numbers that your opponents can not compete with, people revel in it. I view what has been going on as the strategic equivolent of vulching/spawn camping. While I can do both in support of a goal (ie..to capture or defend a field), I find that it loses its charm fairly quickly. It seems that these days, more and more people are willing to make their 'virtual living' this way.
The solution may be to alter the game so that it is less about conquest and more about combat.
So, in essence you are saying that the majority of players are playing for the capture aspect and that`s what they find enjoyable? Then you are saying to take away what the majority enjoys? Yea, that makes sense. lol
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Originally posted by SlapShot
When the RJO came into play, the driving forces in the Bish and Knights were slowly disappearing into the background and there is not, I believe, at this point, any real driving forces steering the Bish and the Knights.
Why do people want to fly for the Rooks ... cause for the most part, they have fun TOGETHER.
Sorry for being longwinded.
And your squad moving to rook helped how? This is why Hitech had to do something. When not even seeming smart and reasonable people like you fellows can be counted on to do "the right thing", there is no alternative.
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no, he's saying, or rather asking, which gives you a better sense of accomplishment and provides more fun all around - taking 2 bases hard fought over, using all the tactics and strategies available, or taking 10 bases relatively unopposed?
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Originally posted by Zanth
And your squad moving to rook helped how? This is why Hitech had to do something. When not even seeming smart and reasonable people like you fellows can be counted on to do "the right thing", there is no alternative.
I say it again Zanth ... 13th participation had diminished at that time. We were lucky to have 2-3 guys flying on any night, and most nights I flew by myslef, so the switch really had no bearing on the numbers ... and still wouldn't in the larger scheme of things.
Squads like the MAW that have close to 80 members could cause the type of problems that you are alluding to.
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Originally posted by Shane
no, he's saying, or rather asking, which gives you a better sense of accomplishment and provides more fun all around - taking 2 bases hard fought over, using all the tactics and strategies available, or taking 10 bases relatively unopposed?
Oh Oh Oh ... I know ... I know ... pick me ... pick me !!!
P.S. ... Don't ever give my beer away !!!
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NB: I agree that the system could change peoples playing style.
But why would it be different from 1 country to the next, or why would it create a country imbalance?
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Maybe people like playing for the rooks because they organzie that RJO thing every sunday and players are looking for a more structered enviornment.
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Originally posted by hitech
NB: I agree that the system could change peoples playing style.
But why would it be different from 1 country to the next, or why would it create a country imbalance?
Because the main issue against the number imbalance is that under the current game play the side getting hit by the larger cant even up to have fun. He will be ganged and or vulched shortly after.
If the focus of game play is away from field capture then the complaint would be "we are out numbered so we always loose" rather then "we are outnumbered and I cant even take off to enjoy an hour or so of fighting. I might as well log". IMHO that's huge difference.
The number imbalance only becomes critical when it’s used as a tool to deny the other the ability to fight. This may make sense in a real war but AH is a game. Winning the game by making it so unfun for the other side is really no victory.
Maybe a core of 5 - 10 uncapturable fields, or making strat a trigger for reset rather then rolling one base after another. There have been a number of suggestions in this direction over the years.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Maybe people like playing for the rooks because they organzie that RJO thing every sunday and players are looking for a more structered enviornment.
uhhh the RJO thingy isn't every sunday, or even on sundays.
what's "structured" about a horde? i don't see organizational tactics such as base cap, interdiction (air superiority for inbounds from other bases), or even ususally well defended goons.
just because a large group of people agree to "fly to such and such base" doesn't make it structured.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
IMO, it can be traced back to the landgrab concept of gameplay. For too many, this has become the main focus of the game. Heck, for some, it is the ONLY focus of the game. Now, instead of becoming bored with putting up numbers that your opponents can not compete with, people revel in it. I view what has been going on as the strategic equivolent of vulching/spawn camping. While I can do both in support of a goal (ie..to capture or defend a field), I find that it loses its charm fairly quickly. It seems that these days, more and more people are willing to make their 'virtual living' this way.
The solution may be to alter the game so that it is less about conquest and more about combat.
This has probably be mentioned before but I'll toss it out anyway.
IMHO the best way to dissuade the land grab would be:
1. Give each country an equal number of uncapturable bases...perhaps 25% of the total Airfield, VH and ports.
2. Get rid of the points for reset reward.
3. Reset the map once a week and only once a week.
The combination would de-emphasize land grab/base capture/lemming raids etc. and would cant more emphasis on air/ground/naval combat. What's the downside? None that I can think of.
DmdMax
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Salute All
I agree that is why im a rook and for me there had to be more to the game then just furballing I wanted more out of the game as well as like minded rooks to use all aspects of the game thats why last sunday you still saw over 219 rooks in the MA still same squads working together for a common goal we were a little slower and diorganized due to switching to new aircraft but it only slowed us down we will regroup get better with the plane limitation and come back at you thats why I think the plane limiting in the long run wont work?
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Originally posted by Shane
uhhh the RJO thingy isn't every sunday, or even on sundays.
what's "structured" about a horde? i don't see organizational tactics such as base cap, interdiction (air superiority for inbounds from other bases), or even ususally well defended goons.
just because a large group of people agree to "fly to such and such base" doesn't make it structured.
So then when is it?
What's ironblade talking about?
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apparently it's variable.
ironblade is talking about the "habit" of many rook squads having their squad nights on sunday (in part because the RJO was at one point on sundays) and steamrolling the arena thru sheer numbers. considering he's pretty much a relative noob, it's his "safe haven" - to fly in a horde and feel like he's contrubuting. nothing wrong with that per se, but... yanno?
hardly "organized" more like a flash mob - if that's what i remember them being called in which a buncha cell phone users would all converge on a location then disperse - without any true purpose.
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Shane beat me to it.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Well there was some great cameraderie and teamwork today from the Bish. Even with the ENV limiter.
Yeah that was fun. I got in on one of the resets. What a blast. In my 8 month online I've never experienced one (maybe cause I'm a bish?):D
I'll take issue with your statement about the inferiority of the planes: there is NOTHING inferior about my F6F-5....other than the pilot of course!!! :lol
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Originally posted by Jackal1
So, in essence you are saying that the majority of players are playing for the capture aspect and that`s what they find enjoyable? Then you are saying to take away what the majority enjoys? Yea, that makes sense. lol
Jackal...
You might wanna get those glasses cleaned :). The essence of what I said is exactly what I said..."The solution may be to alter the game so that it is less about conquest and more about combat. " In no shape or form do I suggest taking the landgrab out of the game. BTW, I never used the world "majority" either. :)
Shane...
Thanks for the clear and concise read on what I posted :).
Originally posted by hitech
NB: I agree that the system could change peoples playing style.
But why would it be different from 1 country to the next, or why would it create a country imbalance?
HT...
Possibly because people of like mind began to gravitate to the country that was showing the most organization. (any psychologists out there???) What I am saying is that I believe that having a perk bonus for resets could tend to mute the boredom factor that might normally balance the game over a period of time. Think about it in terms of dogs...(no, I am not implying that anyone is a dog here :)). If you feed a stray dog, he will keep coming back. Even in a situation that might be bad for the dog, he would keep coming back as long as you "reward" him. I am NOT suggesting that field captures and resets be removed from the game. AH has an excellent conquest system, especially in comparison to its predecessors.
Slap...
While I like the balanced arena odds I have seen lately, I am against forcing anyone to switch countries. My motives here are purely selfish, I don't wanna have to figure out who I can count on in a pinch :D. I am also not machiavellian enough to believe that the ends justify the means. Hopefully, some alternative will be forthcoming.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Maybe people like playing for the rooks because they organzie that RJO thing every sunday
I hate to keep saying this but RJOs and Sundays are two different things.
Sundays have a majority of Rook Squadnights.
RJOs happen about 1 a month and are on anynight.
I do think the RJOs have created a strong bond between Rook Squads and Players. It does create cooperation between squads at any given time. I like to think it made things more fun for most Rooks.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Jackal...
You might wanna get those glasses cleaned :). The essence of what I said is exactly what I said..."The solution may be to alter the game so that it is less about conquest and more about combat. " In no shape or form do I suggest taking the landgrab out of the game. BTW, I never used the world "majority" either. :)
Reword it anyway you wish, but it still comes out to the same thing. OK, I`ll say it again ...majority. Now check Your bifocals. :D
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Salute All
Realtive Newb when do you get senority here...lol ive been here 2 or 3 years now lost count:} and you ferballers who dont want to work in a squad enviroment why dont you just go to the dueling arena?but you guys cant understand why we rooks stay together and have such comradier is it that much a mystery we seem to know and are things that bad in the bish and knight camps you cant keep the #"s seems the problem is with the bish and knight camps to me? you guys cant ralley enough players?
but all im saying is only time will tell ! why dont we get rid of the 3 countrys then and just have 2 the 3 country theory seems to have failed?hope this works out and hope you all get kills happy hunting.
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Problem is (imho) that some take this wayyyyyyyyy to seriously.
It's a game.....look up game in a dictionary.
Our old squad (the Flying Circus) split last year. Some went Rooks, some stayed Bish. Thus the Old Turks was started from remnants of The Flying Circus who stayed Bish. The Flying Circus kept the name as they rotated Rook. All stayed friends however, we talked on the phone, emailed regularly no matter which side one was on. Never took it personal.
Now.....we're all together (mostly) as Bish again flying under The Old Turks logo.
We have no squad night.....we wing together when on. When most of us are on together we tend to defend a lot more then get in on base capture. None care about score, or Perk Points.
Hell.......some of us have 9k.10K and over. Don't really use them.
Some never get in a gv.......or a bomber.....those that do do it a small number of times generally.
I don't recall anyone from this squad posting on the numbers deficit on the BBS. Really don't care about numbers. Just having fun.
Very few of us fly the so called "uber" aircraft....why? Heck I don't know.
But.....what I would derive from reading the above is this.
We take it for face value....for what AH really is. A Venue to have fun and interact amongst ourselves and the Community. Whatever our scores or ranking may be....they fall there naturally, without anyone trying as a goal to be the best or whatever.
Maybe....we just play to have fun and let the chips fall where they may.
As I said above I think some take this combat flight sim (game) the best one available to the world at this time, way to seriously.
If one is concerned about numbers, what type of aircraft is available for you to "fly", and your score...maybe one ought to step back and see what really is important, and what is not.
If you're not having fun because of numbers, aircraft etc. You miss the point of playing AH.
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IMO, it can be traced back to the landgrab concept of gameplay. For too many, this has become the main focus of the game. Heck, for some, it is the ONLY focus of the game.
You saw much of the same behavior in the last days of AW on Gamestorm. That's why I came to AH in the first place, to find gameplay more like the SVGA days.
The main difference there was that the map was so huge, and with no resets, that the total country numbers imbalance wasn't as much of an issue as the "local" numbers imbalance. With this, each country would find an isolated sector of the map, concentrate of jabo/capture points and move to a safer area if any oppostion really developed. That would be 90 percent of the people on line, each in a corner fighting some small handful of defenders.
I think ego has much to do with it. It sucks to get killed by a real human - maybe get killed far more than you kill for up to a year. Get totally spanked. This isn't Quake where the actuall fighting process is easy to grasp (you just need to develop a better eye and reflexes mainly to improve after that).
In a smaller community, and one focused on the "fight" you tend to be more pressured to become better and be one of the "experten." In a larger community with other options, the path of least resistance can help shortcut that learning curve. You may die killing that hanger in a screaming dive at 500 mph -- but you still scored one for the team. etc.
As for the imbalance here... more of the same. You don't die as much when you have 10 friends around you. It's easier to kill stuff, on the ground or in the air, when you have those odds. You may not kill as often, but you can get some kills at least without having to know much ACM and at less risk to the ego. If your whole country has odds it's easier to "win" the reset -- which is the path of least resistance goal of the game for many and not "if I can become good enough to beat (Shane, Todd, Drex) I will have arrived..."
Path of least resistance, IMO.
Charon
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Originally posted by Jackal1
Reword it anyway you wish, but it still comes out to the same thing. OK, I`ll say it again ...majority. Now check Your bifocals. :D
Jackal...
What reword:confused: That is an exact quote of what I posted. No where do I mention taking ANYTHING away from ANYONE . No where did I use the word "majority", nor did I imply that the majority of players were in favor of landgrab. Your reading comprehension skills do seem a bit lacking. Fortunately, HT's seem to be a bet better (sometimes :D).
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"Path of least resistance, IMO.
Charon"
I think thats certainly a bigger contributing factor, leading to a grouping of some players together.
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Originally posted by Zanth
And your squad moving to rook helped how? This is why Hitech had to do something. When not even seeming smart and reasonable people like you fellows can be counted on to do "the right thing", there is no alternative.
Ya know what Zanth thats just totally wrong.He STATED his squad moved to rooks when the rooks were outnumbered.Much Like the Flying Ciurcus did.Ya see SOME squads tried to change the imbalance on there own.We didnt NEED this to try to fix the problems.
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I keep hearing about how Rooks got their stuff together when they were outnumbered and hence the spirit, RJO's, squads winging etc. As my original post said at the same time this was happening Knit and Bish squads went to the Rooks to try to help balance the arena. Was done voluntarily, because in the best of interests of EVERYONE.
And yes I do believe I can voice an opinion as ours was ones of the many squads who made the change, along with the AKs and lots of others.
No matter what reasons or opinions you can state for this spirit, does not detract from the fact that this happened. Unless of course you think you still could have pulled things around without these many squads coming over to you.
Quite frankly if you stay Rook, fine. If you weren't prepared to help the game out voluntarily theres little chance that this change is going to change your mind.
Actually HT I have a good idea why it hasn't happened and I believe a lot of the vets have also. Just think it's a question of who will say it first, but I think under the new rules it would be considered inciting or something along those lines.
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
I am also not machiavellian enough to believe that the ends justify the means. Hopefully, some alternative will be forthcoming.
Wow.Thats some serious cirumlocution there NB.I dont think I have EVER seen Machiavellian used on this board. :aok
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Originally posted by DrDea
Wow.Thats some serious cirumlocution there NB.I dont think I have EVER seen Machiavellian used on this board. :aok
:aok Yah...I got a kick out of that one :).
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http://www.dictionary.com
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NB machiavellian is a definite six cylinder word !!
Good show :aok
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Oh my, we came up from skid row pretty fast, making me dizzy......
(pours out grape T-Bird, throws away bottle- n- bag, uncorks nice Napa chardonnay)
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Originally posted by nopoop
NB machiavellian is a definite six cylinder word !!
Good show :aok
Poopster...
Look for my next big word in about 727 posts :).
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Did he say shartnay?:D
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Jackal...
What reword:confused: That is an exact quote of what I posted. No where do I mention taking ANYTHING away from ANYONE . No where did I use the word "majority", nor did I imply that the majority of players were in favor of landgrab. Your reading comprehension skills do seem a bit lacking. Fortunately, HT's seem to be a bet better (sometimes :D).
OK NB. :D I`m not saying, nor do I care,what exact "words" you used. I am telling you the majority enjoys the capture or "landgrab" as you put it. If they did not then you would never see it and everyone could frolick throughout the land hither and yon looking for something to make the game interesting. If you wish not to understand that , then so be it.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
OK NB. :D I`m not saying, nor do I care,what exact "words" you used. I am telling you the majority enjoys the capture or "landgrab" as you put it. If they did not then you would never see it and everyone could frolick throughout the land hither and yon looking for something to make the game interesting. If you wish not to understand that , then so be it.
Oooooh!
So...what your saying is that I should understand that when you say "you said", what you REALLY mean is "I am saying".
<bangs head on desk three times....HARD >
Got it!!! :D
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Yea OK NB. Carry on. :D
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Originally posted by DrDea
Ya know what Zanth thats just totally wrong.He STATED his squad moved to rooks when the rooks were outnumbered.Much Like the Flying Ciurcus did.Ya see SOME squads tried to change the imbalance on there own.We didnt NEED this to try to fix the problems.
(We were done with this but your are a little confused, what we were discussing breifly was quite recent.)
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Originally posted by Kev367th
...Quite frankly if you stay Rook, fine. If you weren't prepared to help the game out voluntarily theres little chance that this change is going to change your mind....
But over time, as new players come in, I can see how even this would level out. I been watching the numbers mornings and evenings EST, it seems to be working already.
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Originally posted by RedTop
When I was lone wolfing a bit..I flew with the rooks as well for about a month. It WAS more comraderie. Why this is I have no idea. I was and am a Knight. Not just because of some loyalty but because they were the underdog as were the bish.
I came back to knights as I had more friends here and didn't like the idea of shooting down old squaddies :lol
I wish I knew how the rooks did it..or what they have that promotes that comraderie. I'll stay knights as long as the squad Im in wants to. If they ever want to change countries then I'm sure we will go wherever we go.
If the Knights could get the same mojo as the Rooks...They would be in my opinion just as if not better than the rooks.:aok
I don't think the Rooks actually drank any magic potion. ( I have been in Rookland from my first day in AH) It came about with some of the individuals building a cooperative organization. That organization is refered to here as Rook Joint Operations (RJO). When Rookland was outnumbered RJOs were the only time we actually accomplished much of anything. However that early success just kind of grew. On any given night... several key individuals in Rookland can speak for Rookland as a whole. Squads operate as squads. The "coordinator" for the lack of any other term will do things like.... "Hey Deman... grab your squad and put some hurting on the barracks at fields X, Y, Z!" Next thing you know there go Deman and his boys... towards X, Y, Z. You'll hear... "CAF is OTW to hit Bish HQs next hop"... and somone will speak up and say... "Don't bother CAF Nightmares are already upping and on that mission... perhaps you can get the CV off Axxx". There are constant messages of support when you land kills... Attaboys etc. Year or so back when we were least successful you could have the roof falling in and couldn't get any help, squads all doing their own thing. That is pretty much a thing of the past. Heck if I had a dime for everytime I've said... "Over by Axxx and I got about 20 of the bastids surrounded"... and got a quick response from my fellow Rooks.. I'd be a rich man and we'd all be flying in an online flight sim I owned. Now since I don't fly in other countries I don't know how it is done there. Apparently not nearly as well. At least according to what I see posted here and the discussions I have had with those that rotate frequently.
But it isn't magic. Heck... perhaps some Squad COs from Bish and Knit should actually go fly in Rookland for awhile and see how it is done. Study the process and then take it back to their country and see if they can work it there.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
This is the way I see it from my experiences in the last 2+ years ...
I still believe that its a comraderie thing ...
Now, what happened to these squads and their influence.
I believe that the AKs had a falling out within their ranks.
the MAW has also drifted into the background and doesn't quite carry the influence that they once had in Knightdom.
The USMC ... don't really know the story there, but USGrim does not seem to play as much as he use to.
Knights did have something like the RJO ... The MAW, USMC, and FreeBirds (another strong squad) started running ops together and when that happened, it was very hard to stop the Knights.
Then came the RJO ... Rooks were constantly getting a beating and probably the worst beating in the history of AH. They decided to do something about it, and with hard work and cooperation, they overcame and have become the dominate country to date.
When the RJO came into play, the driving forces in the Bish and Knights were slowly disappearing into the background and there is not, I believe, at this point, any real driving forces steering the Bish and the Knights.
Why do people want to fly for the Rooks ... cause for the most part, they have fun TOGETHER.
Sorry for being longwinded.
Well I think you have NAILED the dynamic right on the head... as far as comraderie! Excellent post. However, this doesn't invalidate the land-grab position either. The focus of all these large influential squads WAS land grab. They were real estate agents! :eek:
Success in the arena is defined by land-grab. Fun is often defined by the process one uses to grab the land.
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Originally posted by Zanth
And your squad moving to rook helped how? This is why Hitech had to do something. When not even seeming smart and reasonable people like you fellows can be counted on to do "the right thing", there is no alternative.
Because the term "right thing" can often be in the eye of the beholder.
Because not everyone shares the opinion that the NUMBERS are badly skewed. Only the operational capabilities of each country... and it isn't one set of players responsibility to ensure that another set of players does things wisely.
Because the current "fix" in a dynamic arena would mean a CONSTANT migration is required to keep the ENY limiter from hitting a country. The ENY limiter has bounced around all over the place last couple of nights. Who wants to log on and have to change countries every night. (can't change more often than that with a 6 hour limit). You see constant migration in the CT. Folks will change sides willy-nilly to keep the field level. But the CT isn't a squad based, country based setting. It is the fur-ball around a historical planeset thing. The MA IS about squads, countries and landgrab. CONSTANT migration doesn't fit with that game dynamic and thus is out of place.
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Hi Slapshot,
So you don't think the influx of Bish and Knit squads to Rooks to help even things out helped?
Not meant as an attack, but everyone seems to overlook or not mention this little tidbit when talking about hard work, co-operation etc.
The original theme of my thread was to try and find out why what has happened in the past, isn't happening now.
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Originally posted by Jackal1
So, in essence you are saying that the majority of players are playing for the capture aspect and that`s what they find enjoyable? Then you are saying to take away what the majority enjoys? Yea, that makes sense. lol
Well... if we are trying to force a cross-level that is counter to the underlying premise of the game (landgrab) we are in effect doing the same thing. Not as blatantly... but the same thing.
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Even numbers does not mean no land grab, just makes it harder.
More organization is required thats all.
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Originally posted by hitech
NB: I agree that the system could change peoples playing style.
But why would it be different from 1 country to the next, or why would it create a country imbalance?
I think the answer to that has already been posted a little further up this thread. When the Rooks were down they had no defineable "personality" or squads that were recognizeable in the arena. Large squads working together actually dictated success for a country. Nonsquad people just sort of tagged along with the game plan.
People gravitate towards success. Rooks just happen to have their time in the sun.... and the resultant migration shows that. Of course... Rook squads continue to grow in numbers because as individuals come sample the Rook experience they are buying into it and staying.
Of course.. this enables more efficient land grabs... which is the most measurable manifestation of success.
Our current crossleveling fix really is counter to all the dynamics that the players currently seem to adhere to. If we expect a continous migration in a dynamic arena we are expecting something that flies in the face of the gameplay model upon which the arena is built.
Constant migration works in the CT. It is counter to a squad based, cooperative based, country based, real estate agent based, reset based gameplay model that defines the MA.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Even numbers does not mean no land grab, just makes it harder.
More organization is required thats all.
But if you leave land grab as the preeminant goal... then we don't bother to cross-level. We just say... "Fine... it may be tougher.. but we'll just work harder... we still out number them... we will just do the job with less capable equipment." I don't think that is what we are trying to achieve. If the problem exists of hordes ruining peoples fun.... hordes of P-40s suck almost as badly as hordes of P-51s.... unless you are willing to run from them. Most people don't find running enjoyable.
Our goal was to cross-level....
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True hoards of P40s are just as bad as hoardes of P51s. Point being for the outnumbered country it levels the playing field (short term) if not the numbers.
Remember this is still very much in its infancy, I have seen a lot of new Bish last few days, but it may take months to even things out.
This fix isn't an instant everything will balance out fix. It's designed I believe to accomplish 2 goals.
1) Short term the playing field is evened a little.
2) Long term the countries are more evened than they currently are.
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My 2 cents
Widowmakers squad been semi organized since aol AW
When we first came to AH, most of us were auto added to knits, at that time I guess knits were the low number country.
When the dust settled we decided to fly as a knit squad. During the first couple of months we tried switching countries to get a feel for the difference, went bish, at that time I guess bish were the low country, cuz it seemed like it was mostly newbs, and not a lot of organized squads other than AK's, we went rook and flew a couple months, lots of good peeps on rooks, so was fun, but I am not sure if it was because we started knit, or knits were low again but the squad as a whole voted to go back knit. Seems to me, there are more ..ahem.. older, more adult, ok, ancient damn near..players on the knits, lots of peeps most of us have known since the early 90's, we have a mix of 20 somethin to a couple of guys in their 50's flying in our squad, so it seems like knits is a better fit for our squad, we gravitate towards the furballing more, but do organize land grab when needed. I wonder if there is an age demographic difference? Does that fit in the formula? Most of the older guys seem to be furballers, Plus I am sure NB is a knit using words like machiavellian, kee--rist, what a showoff :), for a geezer at least :)
NwBie
(geezer himself ) :)
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Most of the older guys seem to be furballers, Plus I am sure NB is a knit using words like machiavellian, kee--rist, what a showoff , for a geezer at least
:rofl ... NB did kinda sucker punch us with that one .. eh ?
I just got my AARP card ... does that qualify me as a geezer too ?
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Originally posted by 4510
hordes of P-40s suck almost as badly as hordes of P-51s.... unless you are willing to run from them.
I'd much rather face hordes of P-40s than hordes of P-51s.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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I've seen some interesting points in here, and I think the factors involved in the trends we see are numerous. It seems to me, that early on (sheesh, i've been playing too long), most players were either exAWers and Warbirders, as a majority, and folks from FA and whatever other sims were running at the time. This was before the huge increase in numbers that came with the aggressive advertising campaigns. I'm starting to ramble here, so I'll try to be succinct. It seems that the huge influx of folks new to flight sims in general altered gameplay. The first time a horde rolled over field after field and got a reset, it probably set some folks in their ways. "mmmm, tastes like teamdeathmatch"
Also, regarding camaraderie, with any side constantly over a barrel, you tend to get intimate with the guys over the barrels next to you. ie, with only 50 ppl on, you're bound to get better acquainted. The friendships ppl make in here can be long lasting. The 'core' rooks probably developed their fierce loyalties this way. I dunno, just a guess, seems to fit patterns in some other games.
This question is for HiTech and the crew: is there any way to tell if the recent trend in rook numbers is in proportion to the rook population in AH1? I resubscribed at about the time beta opened, and I started spending a lot more time in the beta MA than the normal MA. Initially, in beta, the rooks had some advantage of numbers (40 vs 18 vs 20 is 2 to 1, but its still only 40 ppl), and I thought the rooks had a slight advantage in AH1, but it just doesn't seem, in blurry retrospect, that the rooks were fielding outrageous numbers in AH1. I know bish were the 'horde' early on when I played AH, but i don't recall ever having fielded the numbers we've seen lately (prolly because there simply weren't enough ppl playing yet).
Anyhow, those were just some random thoughts i had. No flames, whines, or anything in here, just curious, and trying to figure out what the underlying causes are.
Random: just got my Motorcycle Permit, gonna be away from the PC for a few days. Enjoy your weekends
Cheers,
Hub
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No way to realy tell what the trend was hubsonfire: We don't track that data.
HiTech
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Most of the older guys seem to be furballers, Plus I am sure NB is a knit using words like machiavellian, kee--rist, what a showoff , for a geezer at least
:rofl ... NB did kinda sucker punch us with that one .. eh ?
I just got my AARP card ... does that qualify me as a geezer too ?
Slap...
EVERYONE is a geezer to Newbs. I will be 10 his next birthday :D.
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Someone might want to check the time frame. I seem to remember the influx of Bish/Knit squads to the Rooks predating the RJO's. Am I incorrect?
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Will some one define machiavellian for me.
HiTech
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Originally posted by 4510
I
But it isn't magic. Heck... perhaps some Squad COs from Bish and Knit should actually go fly in Rookland for awhile and see how it is done. Study the process and then take it back to their country and see if they can work it there.
You're right it aint majic it aint even hard all it takes is a desire to be a landgrabber. It very very easy. I think 75% of knights dont care about it, we are a fighter group. I think I have been involved in a reset 4 times in 3 years. If I cared to be on the winning side I wouldnt even bother changing sides I would just post a few missions and steam roll right over the map with happy knights who wanted to be base grabbers.
But then we would have to want to huh?
And I dont, and for the most part knights dont in general
Whats the funny thing about it is that some people think it matters in the least. Go on, think you are all that.
The DA is the only skill in AH I respect.
The rest is third grade level flying....
Knight and proud of it.
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Originally posted by hitech
Will some one define machiavellian for me.
HiTech
01100011 01101000 01100001 01110010 01100001 01100011 01110100 01100101 01110010 01101001 01111010 01100101 01100100 00100000 01100010 01111001 00100000 01100101 01111000 01110000 01100101 01100100 01101001 01100101 01101110 01100011 01111001 00101100 00100000 01100100 01100101 01100011 01100101 01101001 01110100 00101100 00100000 01100001 01101110 01100100 00100000 01100011 01110101 01101110 01101110 01101001 01101110 01100111 00101110
:D
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Originally posted by hitech
Will some one define machiavellian for me.
HiTech
Define it??? Hell, I can't even spell it!!!
Suggestive of or characterized by expediency, deceit, and cunning.
:)
I think Shane's might be a better definition. :D
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Someone might want to check the time frame. I seem to remember the influx of Bish/Knit squads to the Rooks predating the RJO's. Am I incorrect?
it was about the same time frame... RJO's came maybe a bit after the influx (but not by long)... as i don't recall RJO's when I was flying rooks while they were in the bucket.
the influx probably helped the RJO's be more effective than they would have wihtout it.
NB: same definition, just in a more easily comprehensible language for HT.
:p
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Even numbers does not mean no land grab, just makes it harder.
More organization is required thats all.
True. Which in turn equals more fun for everyone, furballers, straters, don`t either wayers :D .
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Someone might want to check the time frame. I seem to remember the influx of Bish/Knit squads to the Rooks predating the RJO's. Am I incorrect?
Let me speak with a bit of authority as one of the people that was involved with begining of the RJO.
You are incorrect
Back in October 2001 the 327th Steel Talons, 412th “Fighting Brauncos”, Cactus Air Force, ^”^Nazgul^”^, and Nightmares VMF-101 got together and decided to starting trying to change things by conducting joint operations every several weeks.
From RJO (http://dgideon.org/rjo/)
It really goes even farther back than that. Back in AW several Bz squads got together and did large scale Joint Ops. Some of this was to counter the Cz Sunday Mauling, Some was to just to work together as team.
When The CAF moved here earlier in 2001 we got in touch with BFD (dawg) and Ghostdancer about getting some joint things going. shortly after this, several other AW Squads arrived that we were comfortable working with and the ball really got rolling.
Official RJOs started then in Octorber of 2001.
That was well before Bishop and Knight squads came to our aid because of unbalance
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Grimm...
So, what you are saying is that you ran RJO's for over a year...and the Bish/Knits didn't notice :).
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Originally posted by X2Lee
Whats the funny thing about it is that some people think it matters in the least. Go on, think you are all that.
The DA is the only skill in AH I respect.
The rest is third grade level flying....
Knight and proud of it.
Well glad you got THAT burr out from under your saddle.
I think we need to all wear badges or something that indicates our game style preference. I too am not interested in field capture. So Mr. Lee we have more in common than we thought eh?
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Originally posted by NoBaddy
Grimm...
So, what you are saying is that you ran RJO's for over a year...and the Bish/Knits didn't notice :).
LOL....
Well, Back then we didnt have such a Horde. The First or Second RJO I CiCed we did a reset and had less numbers than the largest country. Aaaa.. life was simpler then ;)
Didnt really matter who noticed, It was Fun.
Some of those RJOs were not set on Resets, Some where just Crazy Ideas for something fun to try. Something we all need to try to remember, Make it fun!