Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: humble on August 18, 2004, 10:30:13 AM
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I'm still amazed how strong the allegience to a particular plane (or choice of planes) is to some...the following qoute was pulled of another thread...
"I expect to fly what I want when I want, just like it has been for years"
I reviewed my own "stats" from a couple different angles in replying on other threads. I looked at K/D in some of the "mid range" planes and then how I did in those planes vs the pony...
"I went back and checked out my last tour(50). I was 19-6 in F-6 18-6 in FM-2 9-2 in la-5 and 19-11 in spit V"
"I went back and did the "player (azhacker) vs plane type" search for my last few tours...was
6-1 205 vs pony
4-1 hog vs pony (3-1 in F4U-1)
7-0 F6F vs pony
6-1 La-5 vs pony
Over all was 27-12 one tour and 31-15 another from all causes"
I'd say I'm reasonably decent stick but certainly not anything special. I can't assume that my #'s are significantly out of step with the "rank & file" of any of the guys flying in the major squads.
What is all the fuss over plane type?? It just doesn't make any real difference in performance in a large heavily populated MA like we have.
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There are different players in the main arena and all over this HTC community.
You are only comparing your results to the P-51D. People don't fly the 51D to rack up kills. They fly it for the characteristics and the versatility. It carries up to 2600 lbs. It is what rooks would call, a true mission bird. People don't fly the thing because they want to get into dog fights and kick someone else's bellybutton in an La7. They fly it because they can dive at speeds up to 600mph, take out a fighter hanger in a first pass, gain back the same alt they had, and continue to CAP a field. While CAPing the field, it can fly escorts, or even get into turn fights with spits, n1ks, and la7's and still come on top.
It's not that people are fighting over the 51D because they cant go around running away from things anymore. It's because they can't use it in misisons and other squad operations to take out a base and get a decent CAP on the field.
Why send out 3 different types of birds to do one job, when you could do the same job with 1 bird.
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Originally posted by Mak333
Why send out 3 different types of birds to do one job, when you could do the same job with 1 bird.
And that is the single biggest problem I have with the late war arenas. It kills diversity.
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P-38/F6F/F4U-D/P47-30 all can accomplish the same "mission profile". The tiffie doesn't have the same type of payload but can certainly be used in the same role.
I've never alluded to the pony as a "runstang" and I'm not looking at it from an air to air fighter perspective exclusively. I'm simply perplexed at the reaction I've seen (especially from pony drivers). I'd of expected the nikki/spit drivers to complain more. From a tactical mission standpoint there is not a single thing a pony can do that a 38 (or a Jug) can't do better.
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I am not saing that the 51 is used to run. However, in an environment such as the MA, with red guys at 1k, 5k, 10k . . .20k some turners some speed deamons, most planes without at list one wing man, are death traps. There is no way you will survive the MA in a F4U for example unless there is team work involved. So, having a plane like 51D that can run or turnfight, can help you get out of troble and chose your batles a little better when you are by yourself. After all, no one wants to be just a target.
Yes, you could beat a spit or nik in a p40 for example, but after you kill them, you pretty much have 30 seconds left before his friends blow you out of the sky.
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Originally posted by Mak333
... People don't fly the 51D to rack up kills. They fly it for the characteristics and the versatility. People don't fly the thing because they want to get into dog fights and kick someone else's bellybutton in an La7. ...
It's not that people are fighting over the 51D because they cant go around running away from things anymore. It's because they can't use it in misisons and other squad operations to take out a base and get a decent CAP on the field.
The entire 412th is fighting over it because the only thing we do is take them up 75% fuel (+ DTs on occasion) fly to where the biggest enemy sector bar is and start shooting down enemy.
The 412th has long since stopped lugging bombs and rockets to kill / capture fields. All we want to do is find a fight, get in it, kick some arse and fly out of there once the fuel / ammo is gone.
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Originally posted by dedalos
I am not saing that the 51 is used to run. However, in an environment such as the MA, with red guys at 1k, 5k, 10k . . .20k some turners some speed deamons, most planes without at list one wing man, are death traps. There is no way you will survive the MA in a F4U for example unless there is team work involved. So, having a plane like 51D that can run or turnfight, can help you get out of troble and chose your batles a little better when you are by yourself. After all, no one wants to be just a target.
Yes, you could beat a spit or nik in a p40 for example, but after you kill them, you pretty much have 30 seconds left before his friends blow you out of the sky.
I disagree completely, I was a "lone wolf" flying for the niggits. I was always a "target". From a pure survivabilty perspective the P51 isn't really any better than a 109 G-2 in the MA if you actually commit to an engagement. The pony provides speed visability range and payload along with a quality flight envelope. Yes it WILL get you in and out of dodge faster...but once you commit to playing in dodge the pony will only take you as far as YOU let it.
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Originally posted by Midnight
The entire 412th is fighting over it because the only thing we do is take them up 75% fuel (+ DTs on occasion) fly to where the biggest enemy sector bar is and start shooting down enemy.
The 412th has long since stopped lugging bombs and rockets to kill / capture fields. All we want to do is find a fight, get in it, kick some arse and fly out of there once the fuel / ammo is gone.
Why can't you guys to that in a 38, F6F,F4U-D or other bird? Quess thats my question...in a purely air to air fight all of em will match the pony quite nicely...
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Originally posted by Midnight
The entire 412th is fighting over it because the only thing we do is take them up 75% fuel (+ DTs on occasion) fly to where the biggest enemy sector bar is and start shooting down enemy.
The 412th has long since stopped lugging bombs and rockets to kill / capture fields. All we want to do is find a fight, get in it, kick some arse and fly out of there once the fuel / ammo is gone.
That is why people fly the P-51D. Well, add in "and fly out of there if I lose the advantage". A 109G-2 can't run nearly as fast, plus it only has about half the firepower.
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Humble.
I think we are in agreement. The other planes can definetly be used successfully. What I was saying about the 51 is that it will allow you the choise of commiting or not in an engagement. I think thats what people like (I flew it for a tour and thats the impresion I got, anyway).
For example, people complain about fast 51s la7s etc. If it was one on one they would not be a problem. La7 on my six at 2k out I can deal with in many dif ways. Not a prob. The real problem is the slower spit/nik/anything that turns, that follows it at 4k out. The prob now is, you cannot out run the la7 and cannot out turn the spit. In either case it became a two on one where you cannot out run or out turn.
Had you been in a 51 however, you could nose down a few degrees and run until the spit droped out of range and hopefully give up the chace. Now you have an one on one with an la7 taht you can manage. If you were in an F-anything and you don't have friends around, you pretty mach dead (assuming the other pilots are half dicent). I think it is that choice that people like. (I don't undertand however why they are so upset that they have to try a dif plane once in a while. It could actualy be fun)
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Originally posted by Urchin
That is why people fly the P-51D. Well, add in "and fly out of there if I lose the advantage". A 109G-2 can't run nearly as fast, plus it only has about half the firepower.
No one is coming out and saying, I need the pony because I can ______ in it and not with another ride. I hated the 109 for years till I had to fly it in the CT a bunch. It ended up that in the "late war" setups I'd grab a G-2 vs a G10 or D-9 everytime. I've always felt that if I lost in a G-2 I lost to a better stick...not a better plane. I can think of plenty of times I've had an la-7/pony/D-9 etc hunt my G-2 down and later on left em with the comment "some things are better off left uncaught:)"...now of course others have run me down and beat the snot out of me...but they whupped me...not the plane. Hell if theyed let wldthing strap on a .45 he'd find a way to hose me in a goonie.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Humble.
I think we are in agreement. The other planes can definetly be used successfully. What I was saying about the 51 is that it will allow you the choise of commiting or not in an engagement....
I guess you hit my real question right on the head...should the team with the NUMBERS be allowed to pick the plane(s) that allow them to control the engagement.
I used to fly the -30 jug with 1/2 ammo 25% fuel center DT 2x1000 and rockets. Could take out VH or FH and 2-4 fuel/ammo np. I'd go in at 10-12k...if I got "bounced" I just pickled everything. you can stand a light jug on its ear and with 5-6 K of air under you you can fight anything...had a couple of 7-8 kill hops landed like that (actually have a clip of one somewhere).
So many great options in the set...
...I appreciate your comments, think you've put a very nuetral spin on things...I do AGREE that the pony is the BEST all purpose plane in the game...just don't see why you cant do the job with a different bird.
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humble:
The question you are asking is akin to trying to understand why someone prefers Heinekin over other beers based on the number of calories it has. Some may make their beer choices based on that. Others may not.
So are all beers the same? Why do some people like Fat Tyre, while others like Sam Adams? Maybe I prefer Shiner over others. Then you have others that like a variety of beers. The reasons for the preferences are myriad and don't all relate to a single set of logic. Maybe I like the taste. Maybe I like the label. Maybe it reminds me of good times. Maybe I like the commercials. Maybe some or all the above. Who knows but the preferences are real.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by Midnight
The entire 412th is fighting over it because the only thing we do is take them up 75% fuel (+ DTs on occasion) fly to where the biggest enemy sector bar is and start shooting down enemy.
The 412th has long since stopped lugging bombs and rockets to kill / capture fields. All we want to do is find a fight, get in it, kick some arse and fly out of there once the fuel / ammo is gone.
so where is this now anachronistic "loyalty" to rooks coming from?
you've evolved, apparently. time to take it a step further, mmmm?
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dtango...
I understand the "I like the pony and prefer to fly it" arguement completely.
If the pony is unavailable, there are other choices that allow you to accomplish the same thing. Since Midnight made it clear that you guys don't fly it in the "multipurpose" role you could just as easily use P51-B/P-38/P47-30 in same role and probably get equal results.
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Shane:
I don't think the 412th was ever opposed to changing sides. Besides friendships we've developed among the squadron we've made some friends with other rooks. We like making friends I guess and that's why we've stuck around with the rooks.
Not sure where we've stated that we'd be unwilling to move. We'd be happy to move as long as we could do it as a squad. I think our issues have been access to P-51D's and making it harder to fly together with the ENY limiter system. Moving countries with the current system wouldn't solve these issues since the ENY system is applied if you happen to be in country with higher numbers at that moment in time.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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humble:
For some squad members the P-51D is the quintisential Mustang. I venture to guess that is true for others as well. Check out the number of D models at airshows vs. B models. That's what folks have gotten accustomed to when they think of the Mustang.
For me personally I don't mind the P-51B but I certainly do understand why folks may plainly prefer the P-51D. The choice to me here is like do you like Budweiser or Bud-light? Some folks like the straight up bud vs. the bud-light. Others may not see the difference.
Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs
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Originally posted by humble
From a tactical mission standpoint there is not a single thing a pony can do that a 38 (or a Jug) can't do better.
There is one thing, it can run better.
ack-ack
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Tango's not convincing me that he's right, but he sure is making me thirsty :p
-Sik
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Well some people simply don't CARE about any of the other units. Speaking only for myself here, but the P-51D is the only airplane in AH that I have any interest whatsoever in. Except in a few rare cases, if I'm not in the Mustang in the MA, I'm not having fun. And that isn't only in AH, that is in ANY flightsim I play (for example I never stayed with WW2OL since it doesn't have the Mustang, and the P-51D was all I flew for 95% of the 5 years I played AW). If the flight limiter causes me to be unable to fly it when I want, I'd log off and if it happens a lot I'd cancel my account. I'm deliberately NOT playing for a few weeks in an effort to let the numbers sort themselves out to spare myself unnecessary frustration. After a few weeks I'll give it a chance, but I have a pretty bad feeling about this.
I don't take ordnance and I'm not a "mission" guy. I feel that the Mustang is a pretty crappy plane for A2G work and if I WAS going to do A2G, I'd take an F4U or a P-47 or something like that. Honestly it isn't really all that great for dogfighting either and I still don't understand why it is so common in AH (in AW it wasn't common at all). It isn't even much of a runner in an arena full of LA7's and D-9's and such.
I'm also well aware that not many people would have the same dedication as I do to a particular plane (especially when you faactor in that I don't really care about its historical reputation). In a worst case scenario I can see myself possibly having to leave AH (wouldn't be the first time). But if it keeps more people who would have quit due to the numbers problem then it's still a decent decision for HTC. Either way I'm going to give it a fair chance.
I think the big mistake, is trying to make the MA a "goal" oriented arena instead of merely a "make your own goal" type of place. The number imbalances were never so bad, so consistently, until after the MA began doing things like rewarding perks for a reset. Suicide porkers don't really matter except for the fact that they're often the best way to win a reset.
J_A_B
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J_A_B
1st piece of logic I can really understand, do you have a problem changing countries to fly the D?
I don't agree with you, but I do understand. Curious if you've ever switched to a different ride for a tour...or even a week?
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Tango's not convincing me that he's right, but he sure is making me thirsty :p
-Sik
Hehe.....
I don't think that there is a right or wrong here. To me it's a balance between plane & country choice. To balance the arena the side with a numbers advantage will have a "lesser" plane set...however it really isn't a "lesser" plane set...jut a less popular one. Personally I'd simply grab my "backup" ride for a particular "mission profile" vs changing countries.
Nikki = Fm2
spitIX = spitV/Yak
La-7 = La-5
P51-D = P38/P47-30/F4U-D
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"do you have a problem changing countries to fly the D? "
No, but I am concerned that with the country side-change limitations, problems may arise. Like I said, I'm deliberately NOT flying for awhile specifically to give things time to settle down some. I'm not one to make rash decisions.
"Curious if you've ever switched to a different ride for a tour...or even a week?"
No, not in an arena--and not only in AH. The Mustang has been my main flightsim ride since within a couple months of my starting flightsims with AW back in the mid '90's (Ironically I initially chose it partly because it was a fairly unique unit which almost nobody used, a far cry from AH). Once in a blue moon I'll pick something else, but it's rare and certainly never for longer than a flight or two. Likewise, I've flown other models in scenarios and in the CT but I'd never make such places my "home". I won't play WW2OL since there's no Mustang, and I haven't played WB's since they added the RPS. Spending a signifigant amount of time in the arena in anything else just has no value for me.
I don't pick the P-51D for performance (it isn't that good IMO) or historical value (I couldn't care less)....I pick it because it's "my" ride....it's part of my identity in these online flightsims, just as much as the _'s in my online name (which AH stupidly disallows but that's a different subject and..well...I still have it on the BBS anyway). I tend to do that in every type of game I play--I'll identify myself with a particular unit type.
You say you disagree....there's nothing to disagree with. I'm only speaking for myself here, and that is how I feel.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by humble
dtango...
I understand the "I like the pony and prefer to fly it" arguement completely.
If the pony is unavailable, there are other choices that allow you to accomplish the same thing. Since Midnight made it clear that you guys don't fly it in the "multipurpose" role you could just as easily use P51-B/P-38/P47-30 in same role and probably get equal results.
P47 is way too heavy to get into turn fights with.
38 starts to lock up its services after 400mph.
P51B doesnt carry enough ord to take out hangers in 100 different passes.
I take back what I said about people not flying the thing to get their selves into trouble. Yes the 51 can run, but it also can do many other things a 47, or a 38 can not. But the main reason why there is so much griping about it is because squad's fly it as their primary flight, and for missions.
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Originally posted by Mak333
...People don't fly the thing because they want to get into dog fights and kick someone else's bellybutton in an La7....
Negative, some people do.
If I want to JABO, I jump in a F4U. Much better suited for air to ground but that’s a personal opinion.
Actually I want to get into a 1 on 1 with an LA7. Especially with the new stall characteristics of the 51. If I can beat an LA7 in a stall fight, then I’m flying very well or the other pilot sucks.
I have little to no attack scores, most all of my kills are in the 51D, and I would rather be at 15K co-alt with another 51 in a hand-to-hand than be swirling around in a large furball or cherry picking the blind.
There’s just not many though that are willing to go toe to toe, regardless of aircraft selection.
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Originally posted by Mak333
P47 is way too heavy to get into turn fights with.
38 starts to lock up its services after 400mph.
P51B doesnt carry enough ord to take out hangers in 100 different passes.
I take back what I said about people not flying the thing to get their selves into trouble. Yes the 51 can run, but it also can do many other things a 47, or a 38 can not. But the main reason why there is so much griping about it is because squad's fly it as their primary flight, and for missions.
a light Jug can turnfight and would give a P51D a run for its money it would come down to pliot
the P38L has dive flaps and trim this shows that pliots lack the understanding to use it in the Jabo rule
and i hope you mean turn fighting in Light planes only a fool would turnfight in a heavy P51D or anything for that matter
i prefer the P38 because it handles alot better then the P51D with ords
but the hole point of bombing a base is geting there so thats why people want the fastest nonperk Jabo while anything slower gives them lower chance of geting there in a Jabo
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Originally posted by Mak333
38 starts to lock up its services after 400mph.
That's only true if you do not know what you are doing in the P-38. Veteran P-38 drivers in here can get the P-38 will beyond 450mphIAS and still retain control. Of course the controls will be sluggish from the aerodynamic forces but we can keep our P-38s from locking up. The key is understanding when and how compressability effects the P-38.
Keep elevator trimmed to neutral, do not use combat trim and do not, repeat do not, enter into a high speed dive above 20,000ft in a P-38. Follow those rules and you won't have to worry about compressability.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Mak333
P47 is way too heavy to get into turn fights with.
38 starts to lock up its services after 400mph.
P51B doesnt carry enough ord to take out hangers in 100 different passes.
I take back what I said about people not flying the thing to get their selves into trouble. Yes the 51 can run, but it also can do many other things a 47, or a 38 can not. But the main reason why there is so much griping about it is because squad's fly it as their primary flight, and for missions.
As has already been pointed out...these are the misconceptions that exist...
A well flown Jug will give you fits...a LIGHT well flown jug will give you nightmares...
A 38 doesn't compress as badly as you think and is controllable over 450 (as ack ack said).
Now a 38/P47 will provide JABO capability as good better than a pony. The "B" pony isnt really a jabo bird...but is an outstanding A to A plane with "some" JABO capability.
I'm not saying that any are "better" than the D pony, just that they are all "historically correct" quality options if the "D" isnt available...
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Originally posted by dedalos
I am not saing that the 51 is used to run. However, in an environment such as the MA, with red guys at 1k, 5k, 10k . . .20k some turners some speed deamons, most planes without at list one wing man, are death traps. There is no way you will survive the MA in a F4U for example unless there is team work involved. So, having a plane like 51D that can run or turnfight, can help you get out of troble and chose your batles a little better when you are by yourself. After all, no one wants to be just a target.
I wouldn't have used an F4U as an example here, to me I can do more in a F4U than I can in a P51 outside of say extending to safety, If flown smartly you can get successful sorties easily with the F4U types and you do not need a wingman to do them, although a wingman makes it that much easier.
but we all know I am a F4U fanatic! :cool:
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Originally posted by Mak333
P47 is way too heavy to get into turn fights with.
Are you sure about that? Ever seen Shane flying a D-11?
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
I wouldn't have used an F4U as an example here, to me I can do more in a F4U than I can in a P51 outside of say extending to safety, If flown smartly you can get successful sorties easily with the F4U types and you do not need a wingman to do them, although a wingman makes it that much easier.
but we all know I am a F4U fanatic! :cool:
Thats the main problem I see here, very few folks really try the various planes out enough to get a feel for em. I was flying sat morning and tried to help clear out a capped base (was in 38)...by three or passes I'd collected a nice little "train" behind me...I extended (ran like a scurvy dawg) till a few of em lost interest (was a carrier based attack)...finally just me a hog (of course I'm thinking...gee hog...you know your alone:) ) anyway I only have maybe 1.0 seperation but go to reverse anyway...hog flew sweet counters and just tore me apart...was Xquat...pilot is biggest part of the equation:( ...
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Originally posted by Mak333
Why send out 3 different types of birds to do one job, when you could do the same job with 1 bird.
To balance out the unfairness of your (or our) overwhelming numbers.
--Peregrine
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Originally posted by humble
P-38/F6F/F4U-D/P47-30 all can accomplish the same "mission profile". The tiffie doesn't have the same type of payload but can certainly be used in the same role.
I've never alluded to the pony as a "runstang" and I'm not looking at it from an air to air fighter perspective exclusively. I'm simply perplexed at the reaction I've seen (especially from pony drivers). I'd of expected the nikki/spit drivers to complain more. From a tactical mission standpoint there is not a single thing a pony can do that a 38 (or a Jug) can't do better.
Thank you, I was just going to say almost the exact same thing
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quote:Originally posted by Mak333
P47 is way too heavy to get into turn fights with.
Originally posted by Grits
Are you sure about that? Ever seen Shane flying a D-11?
Agreed. spend a few flights in the jug. Even heavy it doesnt seem to turn real bad And when light...
Well lemme tell ya.
In AHII this aint your fathers (AHI) Jug.
And I've seen some damn good jug turnfighters here