Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: baine1 on August 18, 2004, 06:24:33 PM

Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: baine1 on August 18, 2004, 06:24:33 PM
With bugs still left in AHII, no new planes added to the game in more than a year and TOD seemingly DOA why does HTC tackle a project sure to anger at least a third of their customer base instead of spending its time on things that need doing???
Instead of taking the time limiting the planes I can fly, why not give me a B-24 (then maybe I wouldn't feel so bad about losing the B-17, or fix whatever happened to gvs (rounds routinely bounce off the teflon panzers these days) or fix it so I can alt-tab without encountering the white screen of death.
Instead we get a draconian measure that doesn't take into account any of the nuances of the three country system and leaves me flying Lancs against players from two countries who can buy 262s cheap and combine their numbers if they can ever get their act together.
This system actually penalizes teamwork _ something that (from what I read about TOD) HTC seemed to want to encourage.
MAybe if I whine long enough...
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: humble on August 18, 2004, 06:41:24 PM
The problem is that IT IS BROKEN. At least thats what the powers that be decided. Otherwise they wouldnt have intervened. Is the method choosen draconian...not really...come up with an alternate solution that you think will solve the problem.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Chortle on August 18, 2004, 06:54:34 PM
I think adding a B24 takes a little longer than knocking up an excel spreadsheet, and there's like, only 6 of em in the office.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Westy on August 18, 2004, 07:08:46 PM
After being a player for whopping two months (going by your board registration date) how are you able to discern what is broken and what is not?
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Stang on August 18, 2004, 07:23:10 PM
Quote
This system actually penalizes teamwork


Teamwork and hording are NOT the same thing.  Just ask Beet :D
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: baine1 on August 18, 2004, 11:19:54 PM
Chortle _ How long has it been since they added a new plane? Yes, it takes time, but we have been waiting a long, long time.

I didn't think the old system was broken. At no time since I've been playing can I remember being on when the Rooks outnumbered the combined bish/nit players. I have been on on days when the Bish and nits have gotten together and reduced the Rook real estate considerably. I've also been on on days when Rooks were outnumbered by one or both sides and got whomped. I've also been on when Rooks had the numbers but couldn't make headway against a well-organized defense.

Now we have a system that discourages teamwork and encourages stagnent maps.

The fact that rooks have managed to get together and say "Let's all show up on a certain day and really kick some tail" isn't something that should be penalized. If Knights or Bishops could do it, more power to them. Instead they choose to whine and complain.

In the past we had a system that rewarded the sides that couldn't get their act together by giving them cheap perk planes and awarding them higher perk points if they did manage to shoot down some planes.

That wasn't enough. 125 point 262s didn't do enough to balance things, they whined.


So now we have a system that
1.) Rewards them with higher perks

2. Allows them to get perk planes for fewer points

3. Now makes the best fighters, and the only heavy buff with a slight chance of surviving an encounter with a 190 or Typhoon, unavailable.

What's next if this doesn't work? Cash payments to the sides with the lowest numbers?

I can live without flying a 51D or La7. But I think including the B-17 in the mix is the wrongest thing in an ill-considered solution. Yes, they can pound bases, but they can also be swatted down quiet easily by a stiff defense, believe me, I've flown through some stiff defenses.

If we are going to take the "Let's level the playing field" to its next logical step, why not start limiting the planes that the best players can fly. A lot of people who play this game aren't very good at it. Is it fair that they get shot down so much (See, I'm thinking of you Westy.)
Why not say that the top 100 players can only fly the Il-2, the Kate and drive the M3. This will give the lesser players a chance to get some kills.
The top 200 can also fly the SBD, the Val, the P-40 and the zekes.
Nobody better than 1,000 can get their hands on any Spit, P-51 or La. Westy can only get a PT boat _ with no torpedos.
That should make things fair.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: TequilaChaser on August 18, 2004, 11:33:57 PM
Quote
Originally posted by baine1

Why not say that the top 100 players can only fly the Il-2, the Kate and drive the M3. This will give the lesser players a chance to get some kills.
The top 200 can also fly the SBD, the Val, the P-40 and the zekes.
Nobody better than 1,000 can get their hands on any Spit, P-51 or La. Westy can only get a PT boat _ with no torpedos.
That should make things fair.


what makes you think that some one with a score lower than 100, or even a thousand is any better than some of the awesome fighter pile -its that don't care about score or point munching and hover in the 1200 to 1800 range?

this scenario is a bad choice if you base it on someone's over all score,  you will have people crashing, augering bailing and not landing kills just to keep their score above the limits imposed if this was put into action.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: SFCHONDO on August 18, 2004, 11:38:40 PM
Hate to bust your bubble, but rank means absolutly nada....Some of the best pilots in this game have terrible ranks. That's due to them mainly just flying in fighter mode. If they don't GV, Bomb, and Attack. The rank in these areas will make there overall rank poor. Since this new idea has been incorperated the sides have seemed to be overall more balanced. If and when your side gets there B17's limited, just go try something else. With a positive attitude you may just have fun trying to bust through the enemy lines with say a 234....Hec; what else do you have to do with those bomber perks. use em up and just enjoy what you have, not worry about what you don't have. That or you could swap countries and help balance out the MA. Which is the intent of doing this in the first place. just my 2 cents is all. have a Great day.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: DREDIOCK on August 18, 2004, 11:45:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
Teamwork and hording are NOT the same thing.  Just ask Beet :D


OUTSTANDING point
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: MOIL on August 19, 2004, 12:25:35 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Chortle
I think adding a B24 takes a little longer than knocking up an excel spreadsheet, and there's like, only 6 of em in the office.




Ask for help ?

Not starting any fights here, just a thought.
Title: Re: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Shane on August 19, 2004, 06:13:23 AM
Quote
Originally posted by baine1
This system actually penalizes teamwork _ something that (from what I read about TOD) HTC seemed to want to encourage.
MAybe if I whine long enough...


i'm guessing here that teamwork doesn't include using that numerical superiority to utilize a proper and tactically effective flight of escorts?
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Chortle on August 19, 2004, 06:27:44 AM
Hey, I'm just trying to be reasonable. I could argue that since AH2, we've got 65 new planes but I dont suppose many would agree.
Quote
Ask for help ?

Who knows? Maybe getting bigger creates more problems? Maybe everyones 50 cents a day doesn't stretch as far as some people think? If I ever see someone from HTC on the equivalent of MTVs cribs ... 'This is my P51D, yeah I took the engine out to make more room for my sneakers' then I might get a bit arsey.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Kev367th on August 19, 2004, 07:19:04 AM
With bugs still left in AHII, no new planes added to the game in more than a year and TOD seemingly DOA why does HTC tackle a project sure to anger at least a third of their customer base instead of spending its time on things that need doing???


Hmmm, does this mean around 2/3 aren't angry?
Seems fair enough then, the majority wanted no night, result - no night. The majority wanted fuel, result - min of 75% fuel always.
The majority must have wanted a change, result - the current ENV system.
Still don't see how it penalizes teamwork, unless teamwork means you can get an overwhelming number of players on and kick the snot outta the other two countries.
Seems people want to have even planesets on an uneven playing field.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: 4510 on August 19, 2004, 09:06:33 AM

Hmmm, does this mean around 2/3 aren't angry?
Seems fair enough then, the majority wanted no night, result - no night. The majority wanted fuel, result - min of 75% fuel always.
The majority must have wanted a change, result - the current ENV system.
Still don't see how it penalizes teamwork, unless teamwork means you can get an overwhelming number of players on and kick the snot outta the other two countries.
Seems people want to have even planesets on an uneven playing field.
[/QUOTE]


I think it is a bit difficult to say what the majority wanted.  I've certainly not seen any voting mechanism or any figures released.
If the majority of the arena wanted things to be level... I suggest they would have cross-leveled the arena.  From the discussion it would seem that numbers are so unbalanced that the majority sits in Rookland.  Many of the arguments in favor of this "fix" point to the fact the Rooks won't cross-level.  Well if they won't cross-level, and they have the majority.. then I find it hard to believe the majority supports this "fix".  If the majority sits outside of Rookland we didn't have a problem to start with.

GhstDancer posted a bunch of different figures... snap shots in time etc.... but data every bit as valid as other data talked about.  His data didn't show any overwhelming numbers imbalance.  (Sunday excluded)  I've certainly not seen any data released from system logs etc. that validate this argument that a numbers imbalance exists on a large scale over extended periods of the day.  No.. I have to disagree... lacking any numerical data that supports your statement... I don't think we can say that the MAJORITY wants this.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Kev367th on August 19, 2004, 09:30:37 AM
Well I suppose as HT has already said it would have only taken 1.7% of the Rooks to move you could go from that.
That leaves 98.3 / 3 countries. For the hell of it say 32.5% per country.
So that becomes Knits 32.5, Bish 32.5, Rooks 34.2 (rounded yes I know its just under 100%) and I am assuming Bish / Knits even split which isn't the case.
Still leaves 65% other countries 34.2% Rooks.

From reading posts it seems the majority of other countries are happy with new system, which would put Rooks in the minority, and thats assuming ALL Rooks are dissatisfied.
I can only guess the imbalance was that bad (and we didn't fix it ourselves ) that HT had to step in.
Agree with it or not, it's a gutsy move.
Title: Re: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: SlapShot on August 19, 2004, 09:52:21 AM
Quote
Originally posted by baine1
With bugs still left in AHII, no new planes added to the game in more than a year and TOD seemingly DOA why does HTC tackle a project sure to anger at least a third of their customer base instead of spending its time on things that need doing???
Instead of taking the time limiting the planes I can fly, why not give me a B-24 (then maybe I wouldn't feel so bad about losing the B-17, or fix whatever happened to gvs (rounds routinely bounce off the teflon panzers these days) or fix it so I can alt-tab without encountering the white screen of death.
Instead we get a draconian measure that doesn't take into account any of the nuances of the three country system and leaves me flying Lancs against players from two countries who can buy 262s cheap and combine their numbers if they can ever get their act together.
This system actually penalizes teamwork _ something that (from what I read about TOD) HTC seemed to want to encourage.
MAybe if I whine long enough...


Your absolutly right ... there are still alot of things that HT has on his plate, but if HT has taken the time to put his hands on this, I can assure you that is must be important ... to his business.

HT, I believe, does not introduce changes on a whim or a whine. Something has to be really out of wack for him to get involved.

I also believe that HT does not do things that try to piss people off ... on purpose. You say 1/3rd are pissed now, but it was the 2/3rds that was pissed before ... so who do you listen to ? ... the 1/3rd or the 2/3rds ? I know who I would listen to.

I think that if the ENY disabler remains a part of the system, it will not exist in its current form ... it will be tweaked to make it not so "draconian". Its a work in progress.

If anything, the ENY disabler should promote more "teamwork". If you can't fly your B-17, then take a Buffalo form and get some escort to help you. Where you were able to fly lonewolf before would now require escort, seems to encourage "teamwork".
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Dead Man Flying on August 19, 2004, 10:03:49 AM
It was broken.  They fixed it.  

Suck it up.

-- Todd/Leviathn
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Kev367th on August 19, 2004, 10:09:34 AM
Agreed Slapshot, something must have been way out of whack.
Like it or not, a hell of a gutsy move.
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: baine1 on August 19, 2004, 07:45:45 PM
Let's try answering a few of these things.

1. What's so gutsy about listening to a few whines and implementing a quick fix that pisses off 1/3 of your customers?
I always thought one of the goals in AH was to get together with your countrymates and gobble up enough bases to win a reset. The Rooks figured out we could do this with joint ops _ no great amount of rocket science involved there. I can't understand why bish and knits couldn't say "Rooks squads all seem to be working together on Sundays, so why don't we make sure to work together on Sundays to bash their crenelated little skulls in." Instead, they said "Oh, it's not fair...."
So now we have a system that makes it even tougher to win resets. Why not just eliminate countries and make it a pure furball arena?

2. I can see why 2/3s of the player base aren't complaining. I wouldn't complain either if suddenly God came down from on high and said "Hey, I heard you're upset so _ in addition to all the other breaks I've cut you (cheap perk planes and multiplied perk points) I'm also going to give you a big advantage over your competitors. To hell with being fair." Heck, once I saw that I'd start complaining even more loudly, who knows what else the almighty might do to appease me and get me to shut up.
I'd like to see what happens when the other sides find themselves suddenly shut out of planes.

3. People who whined about getting ganged also had the option of changing sides or working together. They did neither, which is why we have this poorly thought out system.

4. People who belong to squads, particularly those like my squad which regularly fly with other squads to provide mutual support and fighter escort don't want to go changing sides every couple of days because we have a poorly thought out system.

5. I regularly fly with fighter escort or provide fighter escort. In fact, on our squad nights we normally launch 6-12 formations of buffs with a few 51s along to swat down whatever manages to survive a first pass, but that still doesn't mean I'm willing to severely cut my chances of surviving a mission just because someone else complains. In fact, the simple fact that I am flying with a bunch of buffs and fighters have people whining about being ganged, so don't give me this "Oh, you should fly with escort" and then go whining to Hitech "Oh, I'm being ganged." (see the entry on ganging and teamwork below.)

6. Getting ganged by a horde might not be teamwork, but it sure is if it's done right.

7. Yeah, yeah, yeah, score has nothing to do with skill but I still wish I could regularly crack the top 10. Do you think I was serious in that suggestion? I was trying to make a point about trying to be "fair" by limiting the options of some players. (All except that part about Westy being limited to PT boats _ I notice no one complained about that.)
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: dracon on August 19, 2004, 08:19:57 PM
baine1,

Excellent post!  I agree totally.

Many Warbirders came here because they disliked the RPS (Rolling Plane Set) and the limitations it placed on their "rides".  I believe this to be much worse.  At least with the RPS, like plane sets duked it out.  Now we have 190's, La5's, 7's, and discount 262's against P-51B's and the like.

:(
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: Goobman on August 19, 2004, 09:23:25 PM
BAINE1 ,

You are very insightful and have hit the nail on the head. I couldnt agree with you more
Title: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: TequilaChaser on August 19, 2004, 10:18:48 PM
rgr on the score thingy baine1, just a thought, and this is for all board users, is while replying to a post or creating a thread please please put in a sig, as to who you are in game, so many have different ah message board handles verses their in game handle. It would be nice to pair the board handle  to the in-game handle.

I myself can't say much toward the eny value limiter and perk range, both time I was able to fly as knight,  the impact of the 2 was against knights,  we were unable to up P51Ds La7's etc..and all i saw flying in bish and rook was the ones we were limited to not have use of..... ( by the way, I fly the F4U1D  or 1C mainly, then F6F5, then 51D or 38 so it never really has affected me in any way to start with)

So I can only say it affects everyone the same the one's that asked for it and the ones that didn't.

so it seems like a  fair  decision. And it will be felt by all 3 countries at an given time individually or if player base is near equal not at all.
Title: Re: Re: Why not fix what's broke?
Post by: beet1e on August 20, 2004, 04:51:07 AM
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
I also believe that HT does not do things that try to piss people off ... on purpose. You say 1/3rd are pissed now, but it was the 2/3rds that was pissed before ... so who do you listen to ? ... the 1/3rd or the 2/3rds ? I know who I would listen to.
I was going to say the same thing - almost word for word. slapshot.