Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Karnak on June 30, 2001, 01:51:00 PM
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There is something I have noticed that happens when people state a desire to see a given aircraft in AH. There are people who will try to shoot the idea down on the basis that said aircraft will not see much use. There is a fallacy in that line of reasoning.
There are very few WWII era aircraft left to be added to AH that will be commonly seen in the MA as it is structured now.
Depending on the perk price (the F4U-1C has shown that cheap perk planes can be very common) I think the following aircraft are about all that remains on the popular list. Some of these will be priced too high to be common.
Ki-84 Hiyate (Likely to be a cheap perk, IMO)
P-51H Mustang (Likely to be priced too high to be common)
F4U-4 Corsair (Likely to be priced too high to be common)
Spitfire Mk "Anything more modern than what we already have" (Price will range from free to too high to be common depending on the version)
Meteor MkIII (Price will certainly be too high to be common)
Me262a (Price will certainly be too high to be common)
He162a (Price will certainly be too high to be common)
Yak-9UT (The La-7 has shown that people will fly Russian if its good enough)
Yak-3 (The La-7 has shown that people will fly Russian if its good enough)
Other contenders that I do not feel will be common:
G.55 (Based on the usage of Italian aircraft I don't think this one will be common)
Re.2005 (Based on the usage of Italian aircraft I don't think this one will be common)
J2M3 Raiden (I don't think this will have the performance to be common)
P-47M Thunderbolt (Price is likely to me reasonably high and none of the 3 P-47s we already have get much use)
B-29A Superfortress (Likely to be priced too high to be common and bombers simply aren't that common to begin with)
Tu-2 (Bombers simply aren't that common)
I think that most of the aircraft that we see requested on this board fall under the "neat" category and that will suffer the same fate as the Il-2M. Examples of this are things like the Me410A, Mosquito FB.VI, Ki102, P-61B Blackwidow and H8K2 "Emily". These are all worthy additions and I would love to see them all, but I honestly don't see any of them breaking 5000 sorties per Tour.
The other common request is for early war aircraft, but those will see light usage simply because of the 1944 MA setup that we have.
Most of the great fighters have been added, there are no better Fw190s or Bf109s left to be added, and the nature of the current MA means that multi-role aircraft such as the Me410A and Mosquito FB.VI are at a massive disadvantage compared to their historical use.
Because of my conclusions on these things I think that we should lower our expectations of having new aircraft, with a few exceptions, be very common in the MA. We should be less hostile to the requests for rarer or specialty aircraft of others.
I would like to see HTC add the neat specialty aircraft as well as the remaining super units, but I don't think that we need 8 per release like we got in 1.06. I would like to see real gameplay improvements, such as roads, rail and supply issues. Possibly productions sites that are responsible for the manufacture of certain units.
1.08 sounds like it is shapeing up to be a great release. No units have been announced, but it seems that a road and rail system will be added as well as the upgrade to DirectX 8. The three units I would like to see in 1.08 are the Mosquito FB.VI Series 2, Me410A and P1Y1 Ginga.
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If they model a B-29, you can bet i'll be flying it as soon as i'm able :P
Better bring out the TA-152's, and a lot of em to bring me down over your HQ's :D
<S!> Hamish!
[ 06-30-2001: Message edited by: Someone ]
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Good post, cept P51H should never be in AH, under any circumstances. Tho honestly I feel it be no more dangerous than the P51D as theyll just run away even faster, and priced way more then a Tempest would be very rare.
The 262 will just be plain useless in MA, all ull have to do is roll out of plane when it dives on you. If hes a fool and tries to fite in vertical hell soon loose e slow down and be forced to dive away if he can. I know engine reliability issues arent gonna be in AH, but somehow HTC must model the reality of the 262 engines. You HAD to throttle them slowly or they will suffer a burn out and stop working. This must be in the 262 model, thats is if HTC cares about realism these days. Argghh sorry HTC kinda cheap shot there, but I feel this should be in 262 model if u decide to make it.
As for me I have spent exactly $0.00 perkies so far, and I dont see that changing soon. :)
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Heya GRUN,
I was just mentioning the aircraft that have been bandied about.
About the throttle on the Me262 (Ar234 should have the same issues), I see two ways of doing that:
1) The player can slam the trottle around as much as they want, but the actuall thrust will only increase or decrease slowly.
2) If the player is too rough with the engine it will flame out, effectively simulated by having the engine be destroyed.
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Interesting if adding 262 will down the perk cost of arado?
Right now nothing can catch it until good bounce.
With 262 it will be all of a different story :)
Fariz
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You guys may not have noticed, but AH does actually already model the slow throttle up and down on the 234. I'd say it takes about 10 seconds to go from idle to full power.
(ME262 would be fun for bomber hunting. ;) )
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Does this mean we can't expect to see:
*Bf-109E7
*Hawker Hurricane MKI
*Supermarine Spitfire MKI
*Do-17Z
*He-111H
*Ju-87B STUKA
...
Someday.. someday
We'll get to see my dream plane set for The Battle of Britain.. Someday...
:(
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if you do that to the 262, will also have to make nik fly in real atmosphere, instead of the zero resistance envelope it fly's in now :)
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aaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh the atmosphere
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P-61, A-26 non-perked. Slow mofos, big and bristling with nose guns, have as much defensive turret firepower as an il-2.
Mossie: cheap perk (its fast!).
Ju88 with cannons : Flying it as a fighter should GIVE you lots of perks heehee.
Me-262 & Meteor: I agree that these planes should be perked, but not so expensive. They have very short range, need a lot of space to climb and dont accel very well. Once they get going though, thats another story :) Heck, I think the max perk cost for any plane should be 20 perks (with the B-29 & Nuke package costing 100 perks heehee!)
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well... perks are stupid. They make the game more and more 'elite' and less friendly to the newcomer. I don't want to beat up newbies in a -4 Corsair any more than they would like being beat up. I would rather chase off a bunch of flabby "vets" than have a bunch of nebies (rightfully) turn up their nose at our elitism and idiotic bassackword perk game.
Face it... the idiotic perk idea is a hashed up nightmare of a temporary solution. Your post points this out. The more planes we add the worse it gets. Really... HTC will have to come up with something better even if it limits choice a little.
We can't have superplanes and prototypes flying in the same arena as P40's and Spit ones... It's just that simple.
A simple and well thought out RPS for early, mid and late war planes would be the next logical step but...
Much as I like early war planes I will admit that they are probly not as popular as the mid war ones so... a short early war. A very long mid war and a very short late war. Maybe a day or two at the end for ultra uber planes.
Course... if we had an 'area' arena we wouldn't have any of these problems.
lazs
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Karnak,
That was a very well thought out and presented post. I appreciate posts like that. It is hard for me to think of the 47 not being used much since that is all my squadron flies most of the time :).
I too would like to see the perk point requirements drop. Personaly I think the arado is way over priced. But that is my opinion.
(http://home.att.net/~lmluper/markatsig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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Kinda funny to worry about the ability of the 262s engine to handle what we do to it, considering we dont do that on any of the other planes in the game.
In AH now, you can run a P51 at full throttle from start to stop without any problem. The real engine really wouldnt take such abuse, not for the long flights.
And as far as the 262 not having any effect in the game, think again. I had some of my best sorties, with highest number of kills per flight in a 262 in WB. Granted its easy to avoid, to a point, but it does have some real strenghts that cant be ignored. In the hands of a guy that knows how to fly it well, its a hell of an aircraft.
Wanna talk vultching? The 262 is the ultimate vultching aircraft. It can roar down a field at such a speed the ack cant touch it. No longer restricted to fields that have the ack killed, you can vultch at random anywhere.
And, Jet -vs- Jet dogfights are a blast.
Dago
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Fariz,
Maybe. It would be nice for people like me to which the price of the Tempest and Ar234 is too high (I know there are plyers with multiple thousands of perk points). It seems more likely that the perk price for the Me262a, He162 and Meteor MkIII would be in the 100 to 200 point range.
Kweassa,
I hope that those get added sometime. That was kinda the point of my post. To show that aircraft that won't see much action are entirely valid additions. Most of the aircraft which will see heavy use have already been added.
Tac,
Perk the Mosquito? :confused: Why? If it were free it will barely see any use, as a perk it'll never get used. You say that it is fast, well, on the deck (I am talking about the FB.VI Series 2 here) against its historical opponents it was fast, but AH is full of things that will easily out run it and out manuver it. Things like the P-51B, P-51D, F4U-1D, F4U-1C, Bf109G-10, Fw190D-9, Yak-9U, La-5FN, La-7 and the Typhoon MkIb. The Mosquito FB.VI can do about 345mph (with WEP) on the deck and peaks at about 380mph at its best altitude.
In AH it would have to contend with the fact that if it meets a Bf109 or an Fw190 they will almost certainly be a G-10 and D-9 respectively. Historically that would have been the exception rather than the rule in 1944/45 and never would happen in 1943. Furthermore it will have to contend with the fast Allied fighters, American, British and Russian, that it never had to worry about in reality.
Basically, if the Mosquito FB.VI should be perked due to its speed, there is a whole bevy of aircraft ahead of it on that list.
I can see the Mosquito B.MkXVI as a cheap perk bomber.
Mark Luper ,
I know what you mean. There are people who really like each aircraft, some have more fans than others, but what really seems to determine if an aircraft is heavily used is how many non-fans wil use it. I know there are dedicate P-47 fliers in AH (I even grab one once in a while), but if you look at its numbers they are not very high. I would fly the Mosquito FB.VI Series 2 in preference over any aircraft in AH, but I don't think it will be a common aircraft. There are P-40 people waiting in the wings as well.
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Hmm nobody mentioned the cat?
Can we have the Catalina pleeeeez? pretty pretty pleeeez? :D
Daniel, aka Cyrano
(http://www.catalina.demon.nl/images/G-BLSC_1.jpg)
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I'd rather have a F4F-3, F4F-4, FM-2, P40(all variants), G.55, Re.2005, Re.2000, LaGG-3, MiG-1, MiG-3, and Hs129.
Karnak, you've got a dweeb list.
(http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/cwm/cwm/disturbed.gif)
-SW
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Hey Guy, I'm masterin' my joystick! (http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/blackeye/arcadefreak.gif)
Contact me here: weissdr1@yahoo.com
(http://www.aksquad.com/akgraphics/menuoptions/akhq2-on.gif) (http://HTTP://WWW.AKSQUAD.COM)
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Hmm.... SW gets it. what you guys are asking for with your well reasoned post is a way that you can fly 450-550 mph planes in the arena against inferior planes and pilots and justifying it by saying that you won't see that many if the price is high enough.
Why not just have a day or two at the end of the tour to fly the dweeb rides and circus freaks? You would have other dweeb rides to fly against and everyone would have an equal plane choice... Everyone/anyone would probly get to fly these freaks a lot more with an "end of tour" system than they would if they were 200 idiotic perk points.
Keep the weird dweeb rides away from the early and mid war planes.
Point is... How will we introduce early war planes with this bassackward system? I would sure as hell have a lot more fun flying early war planes for the first few days of a tour than I would dodging every dweeb "vet" in a perk ride every day of the tour.
The only good thing about the idiotic perk system is that it makes every perk jerk in a perk ride a huge target in the arena.... sorta hoisted on his own dweeby petard.
Oh, and yes... I don't think much of guys who feel they need to fly a 'perk' plane against inferior planes.
lazs
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Lazs, as long as your RPS means that the perk values go down as the tour goes on, I'm for it. First few days, no perk planes. Next week or so, prek planes full price, then they start going down in price, and on the last few days, all planes are free.
personally, I don't fly perk planes, because none of them interest me, 'cept the arado, but I don't buff enough to get the perkies for it.
As for the early war planes to flesh out the plane set... I don't care if they EVER get usage in the MA. I'd like them for Special Events though, as do several other people! BoB would be fun! PTO with Wildcats, Dauntlesses and (already in of course) TBMs against Kates, Vals and Zekes (maybe an earlier variant Zero). Stuff like that would be fun! More planes for all countries, so we don't have to do the "Germans will use the TBM for Stuka's today" type stuff.
I'd like a few new planes each update, with gameplay enhancements/fixes. A balance between the two. New planes should focus on giving each country a plane for each role, then early war set, THEN the spiffy late war planes. Just my 2 cents... :)
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SWulfe, laz1,
How am I asking for planes that can go 450mph?
You guys either didn't read my post or completely misunderstood it.
I was specificly asking for 3 things. 2 from HTC and 1 from the AH community.
1) For HTC to impliment gameplay improvements in the coming versions.
2) For HTC to add specialty aircraft and aircraft that will not see particularly hard use, such as the Me410A, PBY Flying Catalina, P1Y1 Ginga, Mosquito FB.VI Series 2, P-61B Black Widow and H8K2 "Emily". There aren't very many super units left to add.
3) For the AH community to cease its sometime attacks on people who request weird units or units that will not see heavy use.
The list of super planes I included in my post was simply to show what I thought were the remaining units that stood a chance at being heavily used in the MA. I included that list to show how silly the "New units must be possible heavy use units." attitude is, not to say that I wanted them. I don't want them.
The way I see it is that HTC can either add super units, or they can add speicialty and low use units, or they can stop adding units.
I would like to see specialty and low usage units.
The three units I specifically requested in my post were the Me410A (386mph), Mosquito FB.VI Series 2 (380mph) and the P1Y1 Ginga (345mph). There is not a 450mph aircraft among them, hell, there isn't even a 400mph aircraft among them.
[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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And I listed what I wanted to see.
Your list is still a bunch of dweeb planes. Whether they are added or not, I don't care..
-SW
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Hey Guy, I'm masterin' my joystick! (http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/blackeye/arcadefreak.gif)
Contact me here: weissdr1@yahoo.com
(http://www.aksquad.com/akgraphics/menuoptions/akhq2-on.gif) (http://HTTP://WWW.AKSQUAD.COM)
[ 07-02-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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The more you focus on one specific time-period or plane performance range... the more you alienate the others.
I'd rather the alienation occured after the others were introduced... that way we don't have to deal with the "why bother with those" aspect of things. Its already bad enough.
AKDejaVu
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Good post and well presented. I too believe we need some early, mid and late war setup during the tour. Or even better I think, an allie/axis arena in addition to the MA.
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I agree that there are not realy many AC units to add. Focus should be on developing gameplay. Roads, trains and supply convoys would sure add interesting targets and add to the strategy element of the game.
Even though we like AH to focus on the air combat sim aspects, we have to see some development along the lines of ww2ol. Variation in gameplay and what you can do is important. From time to time it is a nice break from flying to do some ground work.
To secure AH enough players for the future it makes sense to attrackt players who are not as focused on air combat as most of us. The more players, wheater they are pilots, navy- or panzer freaks can only improve the game and assure AH the neccessary user base.
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I vote for cooling out with the planes for now and consentrating on ground targets for us ie: Truckes, Trains, bridges, invantry all player controlled. In the hanger for the trains and trucks, should be fuel and ordinances to bring to badly hit or damaged bases. Even for bases that you just captured,fuel ordinance and barracks just got damaged in the take over,but you need that base up and running for your next offencesive you have no time to sit and wait till it comes back up, you could of had the trucks or the train rolling before you taken it so you could be up and running in 5 min after you capture it.
This isn't the first time I've thrown this on the board, but I think it would put the game in a promising direction. ;)
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karnak... perhaps I'm wrong but you asked for the p51H the -4 Corsair, Ki 84 (not 450 but very dweeby), Spit 14 and other 450 mph planes and you want to fly em against the current set!
If you have a dweeb day or two at the end of the tour for the circus freaks then everyone will get an equal chance to fly em as much as they want and they will not be "targeted" since so many losers will be in em.
I got no interest in the circus freaks and like the early war rides.
I find myself in full agreement with the AK poster twins.
lazs
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Hey guys.. you really gotta try this with this thread...
Go to http://www.pornolize.com (http://www.pornolize.com)
paste the URL of this thread(http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=010473) into the box that says "http://" and push the "pornolize button"...
This thread becomes so realistic in it's nature it isn't even funny!
-SW
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LOL SW!
Now that is funny...
trm
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lazs,
Hmmm. The way I wrote it, I can see, kinda makes it look like I was asking for those.
What I meant to imply was that many people seem to want those aircraft, and that's fine for them, but the aircraft that will see less use, such as P-40s, Mosquitoes, Me410s and the like are entirely valid additions that should not be rejected based on their likely low usage numbers. Many people want to see the earlier stuff rather than the end war stuff.
I myself would prefer a 1943 (maybe into early 1944) arena. The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see an arena that limited the use of 1944 and later aircraft in some manner. I think 1943 is the most balanced year for WWII aircraft, except for the Japanese whow will probably need to be granted some early 1944 fighters, like the A6M5b we have in AH.
I am not an advocate of super planes.
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If we're going to have a Jet I'd rather it be the Meteor. 'Every' flight sim to date has used the Messershmit and it's getting stale.
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S!
Maybe the BBS would look like that(after pornolize) if there weren't any moderation..laughed my arse off reading it..Kinda more realistic touch don't Ya think ;)
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karnak... my point remains.... you are incorrect... adding early war planes at this point and with the idiotic perk system in place instead of a fair system.... is not viable. The early war planes will be useless. They need to compete with contemporarries not circus freak dweeb rides.
Perk points just make planes unused. They pin a target on the dweebs with the fragile egos that would fly em and embarrass the guys who like parity so..... put even 7 perk points on a plane and it becomes useless... put 200 on and the ego impared will have even less reason to risk their precious reps... The fair minded will shun them even more.. Who does that leave to fly em?
lazs
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lazs,
I am not overly fond of the perk system either, and I wish that I could say that I know of a viable alternative. The best one that I have seen is a simple rolling planeset, however that system seems to send many people into hysterics.
You are distorting the effect od the 7 point perk. The F4U-1C still gets plenty of use, it had 10,392 kills last tour. I would hardly call that useless.